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Harwammer
02-05-2010, 13:02
My minotaur champion with ramhorn helm was in combat with some trolls and got hit with fists of gork*. He saved the wound, does he get to make an attack against a troll?

Its not the combat phase, but he is in a position where he can fight.

*edit fists of gork is a damage spell that can be cast into combat and has a chance to wound every model in the target unit.

Gonzoyola
02-05-2010, 20:43
I'm sorry but I can't recall, is Fist of Gork a magic missile?


===
Edit, I checked and it is not. Still the common consensus is you only attack back from armor saves in close combat

Harwammer
03-05-2010, 12:46
Judging from the underwhelming response it seems there is no common concensus, but thanks for adding your thoughts Gonzoyola.

I'd be interested in investigating the cause of the supposed consensus; I'm sure it exists because when making saves in combat you almost always are in base contact with an enemy and as such are able to allocate attacks. In my example there is the opportunity to 1) save a wound and 2) allocate an attack against a model in base contact. I don't see there being anything to prevent the helm being used.

willowdark
03-05-2010, 13:30
Precedent for Combat centered effects not being triggered by a spell: DE Bladewind.

Close combat attacks, no Hatred, though the Sorceress has it, and no hand weapon/shield AS bonus.

Pure conjecture, but hovering around relevant.

rtunian
03-05-2010, 14:11
Judging from the underwhelming response it seems there is no common concensus.

hard to respond when you are asking only people with the dark elf book. if you had posted what the magic item's description was, more people could provide an interpretation.

kramplarv
03-05-2010, 14:16
and waited for more than one hour :)

stripsteak
03-05-2010, 17:49
i think there is also a lack of beastman experience/books as well. any Beastman related question seems to take longer to answer.

Seabo
03-05-2010, 18:11
I would say no....
Ramhorn Helm states that for each wound saved IN COMBAT the model can make an extra basic strength attack back.
Lots of spells can be cast into combat but are actually taking place in the magic phase so therefore not in the combat phase....right?
I use Ramhorn Helm all the time and seriously never even gave this much thought at all because they are 2 separate phases.
That's the take of an experienced (somewhat ;)) Beastman player

samuraibobx
03-05-2010, 18:32
I would say no....
Ramhorn Helm states that for each wound saved IN COMBAT the model can make an extra basic strength attack back.
Lots of spells can be cast into combat but are actually taking place in the magic phase so therefore not in the combat phase....right?
I use Ramhorn Helm all the time and seriously never even gave this much thought at all because they are 2 separate phases.
That's the take of an experienced (somewhat ;)) Beastman player

In my area, we've taken the opposite view. Spells that do wounds that can be used in combat are treated as taking place in the combat phase. However, this holds true if and only if the caster is in the same combat as the wearer of the Ramhorn Helm. Otherwise, no dice.

Avian
03-05-2010, 19:14
Spells that do wounds that can be used in combat are treated as taking place in the combat phase.
Eh? That seems like a very odd interpretation to make.

Harwammer
03-05-2010, 19:49
I would say no....
Ramhorn Helm states that for each wound saved IN COMBAT the model can make an extra basic strength attack back.
Lots of spells can be cast into combat but are actually taking place in the magic phase so therefore not in the combat phase....right?

Fair enough. Though keep in mind that the model is IN COMBAT (base to base with an enemy) even if the armour saves aren't being made in the combat phase. The item description says the model simply needs to pass an armour save while in combat in order to make the attack.

What would your interpretation be for a model with ramhorn helmet making saves against wounds due to the staff of damnation (VC bound item, allows all models nearby to make a single melee attack if they are in combat).

The situation is somewhat comparable; the helmet wearer is in base to base with an enemy model (combat) and passing armour saves in the magic phase, in this instance could the wearer make an extra attack?

Gaargod
03-05-2010, 20:39
In my area, we've taken the opposite view. Spells that do wounds that can be used in combat are treated as taking place in the combat phase.


Wow is that all kinds of wrong. Its a spell, cast and immediately resolved in the magic phase. Now, most of those sorts of spells (transmutation of lead for example) will affect the combat phas - but they're cast in magic. Fists of gork specifically goes into combat, so can be done. In the magic phase.

To look at it another way: If there's nothing in the book that says you resolve it in the combat phase... why would you? Are you saying spells like that would affect combat resolution/not remove rank bonuses?


As to the item, i'm assuming the exact wording (or words very similar) is this:
If the bearer passes an armour save in combat, he may make an extra attack.

Right, first off - the bearer is in combat. Not in the combat phase, but he is in combat. As it doesn't say he has to hit back at whatever he saved against, he doesn't have to waste an attack on a combat out of base to base. If it explicitly says it has to be from a close combat attack, then no. Otherwise, i can't think of anything that says he can't do it. Its not going to happen a lot, to say the least.

Kerethar
03-05-2010, 21:54
It doesn't say "in combat"

"For every succesful armour save he passes, the bearer may immediately make a bonus attack at his basic strength"

T10
03-05-2010, 23:08
It does not appear that this bonus combat attack needs be directed against the enemy that made the original attack. It seems straight-forward: Make the attack.

-T10

Gonzoyola
04-05-2010, 01:16
The context of the helm is simple, if people want to knowingly abuse it then go ahead, and have fun giving beasts a bad name in your gaming circle.

I play my beasts and I would never use the ramhorn like that, if a model makes an attack in close combat and you save it, then you attack, thats that

Kerethar
04-05-2010, 09:55
Actually, the fluffy description mentions "lowered guard" and "surprise attack,"
making an attack out of phase would be a surprise ;)

I have never heard anyone complain about the Ramhorn Helm.
Minotaurs on the other hand... But that's for a different thread..

willowdark
04-05-2010, 16:18
I generally consider myself a center-RAW kinda guy. When in doubt, I look to the way the rule is worded to see how to interpret it.

But this is definitely a case where the moderate in me just takes over. I could not in good conscience make that attack as a result of a spell, and I would expect a Beastmen player in a game to understand why, regardless of how the rule is written.

sulla
04-05-2010, 22:48
I generally consider myself a center-RAW kinda guy. When in doubt, I look to the way the rule is worded to see how to interpret it.

But this is definitely a case where the moderate in me just takes over. I could not in good conscience make that attack as a result of a spell, and I would expect a Beastmen player in a game to understand why, regardless of how the rule is written.

Heh, after slogging through shooting and magic as he crosses the field and then defeating the screens and redirectors to finally get his minos into combat with a worthy opponent, the minotaur player might think his opponent is being unsporting to cast spells into the combat too...

jamano
05-05-2010, 03:48
Well not all close combat attacks need to be made in the CC phase, remember tomb kings can make normal attacks during the magic phase.