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Spiney Norman
02-05-2010, 16:12
I came across an odd situation when playing wood elves the other day, see what you think of our resolution.

A unit of Dryads emerge from the woods in front of my Night Goblins. The first model marched (goes about 9" or so) and comes close enough to trigger the unit's fanatics.

According to the O&G AB the unit cannot move any further until the fanatics' movements have been resolved, so we stopped the Dryad unit in its tracks and worked out the fanatics. This had two interesting side-effects

1. The front dryad had moved about 9" while the rest of the unit hadn't moved at all, which meant the distance between the front dryad and the rearmost dryad was approximately 15" which means when the Fanatic popped out of the back it was some 24" from its launching unit

2. The fanatic managed to "leap-frog" the woods which the dryads were in the process of moving through, basically the front dryad was in front of the woods so the Fanatic hit her before contacting the woods and the rear-most dryad was beyond the woods on the other side, so when the fanatic popped out the back of the dryad unit it had by-passed the woods without technically contacting it at all.

Zaustus
02-05-2010, 16:34
I don't think you moved the skirmishers correctly. The entire unit would move 9" and trigger the fanatic. Despite picking them up individually, the entire unit still moves at the same time.

sssk
02-05-2010, 16:39
yup, the whole unit would move as one (ie still be within an inch or whatever of each other).

Also if the fanatic hit a forest (even while passing "through" the unit) it would be destroyed. It doesn't magically vanish at the front edge of the unit and reappear at the back edge.

Agnar the Howler
02-05-2010, 16:41
Zaustus is correct, the unit being unable to move further until the fanatics have been released and their effects resolved is more to do with non-skirmishers, who could be moving into fanatic range, dealing the fanatics, and then finishing their movement by wheeling and moving further.

Festus
05-05-2010, 12:28
Hi

Zaustus is not correct, as you move each Skirmisher on its own, not the whole unit.

The real question still is though: Does the path of the fanatic go through a wood or doesn't it? Or to put it llike this: Can a unit be in and out of a wood at the same time?

I'd say: Yes!

Festus

the Nurge
05-05-2010, 14:18
Zaustus does have it correct.

You might pick up the models one at a time, but if the skirmished unit temporarily stops at 8" from the fanatic, the rest of the unit should be moved up the same amount as the model that popped the fanatics. Work out any fanatic movement/ damage, then continue moving.

I have seen many people with custom movement trays for their skirmished units.

tmarichards
06-05-2010, 05:14
If the skirmishers are in the forest, and the fanatic moves through the unit, then it would seem logical to me that the fanatic has moved thorugh a forest, and therefore dies.

Unless, of course, the O&G player sends it out in a way that it moves thorugh the unit, but not through the part og the unit that is actually in the forest.

Entreri Bloodletter
06-05-2010, 05:38
Sorry to hijack the thread a little but my question is very similar:

Can a unit of skirmishers charge around(ie. through) a fanatic standing in their way provided they have enough movement to skirt around it or will they take hits as normal?

Zaustus
06-05-2010, 06:42
BRB p.66, diagram 66.3 implies that the skirmishers can dodge the fanatic. Since skirmishers can charge "around" units, I don't see why the same wouldn't be true against Fanatics.

T10
06-05-2010, 08:03
You might pick up the models one at a time, but if the skirmished unit temporarily stops at 8" from the fanatic, the rest of the unit should be moved up the same amount as the model that popped the fanatics.

I agree on the should.

-T10

Kalandros
06-05-2010, 08:35
BRB p.66, diagram 66.3 implies that the skirmishers can dodge the fanatic. Since skirmishers can charge "around" units, I don't see why the same wouldn't be true against Fanatics.

Yes if the fanatic was already on the table they could charge around it, unless of course they had to step on it to line up for combat.

But when the fanatic is released, they can't avoid it if the greenskin player rolls at least an 8.

Gonzoyola
06-05-2010, 10:10
It is stated in the BRB that all skirmishers must be within an inch of another skirmisher in their unit, so by that logic, there is no way what you are proposing is feesible, all models in the unit move the same rate, and must remain within an inch of another model.

rtunian
06-05-2010, 14:12
um, no, they do not have to stay w/in 1" of each other while moving. they have to form up so that they are no more than 1" apart at the end of their move. huge difference. skirmishers can easily avoid fanatics that are already on the field.



skirmishing models are moved in the same way as individual man-sized characters on foot. the unit does not turn, wheel, etc, and each model is free to move in any direction without penalty. once movement is complete, the entire unit must form a loose group or line with models no more than 1" apart

yabbadabba
06-05-2010, 17:02
Doesn't seem strange to me. As others have said your opponet should have moved the rest of the unit up, in formation and with no model moving beyond the first. Then the fanatic moves giving you a "true" end point for the fanatics movement answering the issue with the wood.

Festus
07-05-2010, 14:28
Hi

Have the Warseerites stopped reading the rules all of a sudden? :O

The Skirmishers rules tell you to move the models individually - during a charge this is not optional, and pratical in all other respects -

The skirmishers have to stop their movement as soon as the fanatic is released, no stepping up at all. It is the Fanatic's rules...

... The Skirmishres only have to be within 1" of each other at the end of their move.

Festus

rtunian
07-05-2010, 14:50
festus the skirmisher rules tell you to move the models individually so that they can go in any direction and end up at the same place. this much is true. however, you are not abstracting the rule to the situation:

the skirmishers are NOT moving 1 at a time. they are all moving at the same time. we cannot resolve their movement simultaneously, though, because they are allowed to go in different directions from each other, and normal folk don't have the means to move 7-15 guys in different directions at the same time. normal folk are only physically capable of moving a couple at a time (in opposing directions, that is). so, while the rules say that they move individually, the abstraction is that they are all moving loosely together.

i mean really, what you are suggesting is that 1 skirmisher charges, and then after he makes it into combat, then the next guy charges, and after he makes it in, then the third guy, and they take turns charging until everyone who can reach gets in, and then the rest of the guys stroll up casually to the back rank. that's ridiculous. the abstraction is that they are all charging loosely together at the same time.

since the fanatic rules do not clearly specify how to resolve skirmishers, and the skirmisher rules do not clearly specify how to resolve situations where their move is interrupted mid-move, we are obligated by the most important rule to come up with a reasonable solution. i don't think it's reasonable to assume that the models in a unit take turns moving.

Festus
07-05-2010, 15:38
i mean really, what you are suggesting is that 1 skirmisher charges, and then after he makes it into combat, then the next guy charges, and after he makes it in, then the third guy, and they take turns charging until everyone who can reach gets in, and then the rest of the guys stroll up casually to the back rank. that's ridiculous.
that is not ridiculous, that is the rules, simple.
Or do you really want to tell me that a bunch of guys in ranks will not see that there is a 50" monster right next to them at their right side - and so can not react to it?
Right, that is an abstraction in the rules as well.

We can only do what the rules tell us to do.

And the rules tell us to move each skirmisher individually.

Rules = simple reason to do things (and realism does not come into it at all, in a Fantasy game least of all :rolleyes: )

Festus

rtunian
07-05-2010, 15:46
Or do you really want to tell me that a bunch of guys in ranks will not see that there is a 50" monster right next to them at their right side - and so can not react to it?

sure they can, if the monster causes terror they will test for terror. that's a reaction. also they can reform up so that they are not charged in the flank. that is a reaction too, is it not?

rtunian
07-05-2010, 16:13
edit: sorry for double-post :( and copious typos :( :(


Rules = simple reason to do things (and realism does not come into it at all, in a Fantasy game least of all :rolleyes: )

realism doesn't come into it at all?
how do you justify this then?



imagine a real battlefield with its contours, morning mists and haze of dust. towering over our miniature battlefield we are unaware of all this, but the troops represented by our models would not be so lucky. just as their real life counterparts cannot see throughy hills or hedges, we must assume that our models cannot see behind corresponding terrain features.

or this?


in the desperate hack and slash of close combat, the advantage goes to the best and fastest warriors, or to those who have gained the extra impetus of charging into combat that turn. to represent this, combatants strike blows in a strict order

do you really argue that the rules aren't meant to be an abstraction of a realistic event? "it's fantasy not reality" um okay? duh? are you saying htat a fantasy can't be realistic? doesn't the terminator movies look pretty realistic? those are fantasy though, science fiction to be accurate. but they still have realism about them.

now, about the rules dispute in question: fanatic vs skirmisher



there are exceptions to the general turn sequence, hwen things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order and, regardless of whose turn it is, both players might have to do something at the same time. occasionally the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular troop type, or may activate some special troop tyoep or occurence.

a normal skirmisher's move is defined and discussed. however, what is not defined is a skirmisher's move that is interrupted by fanatic's release. in the fanatic rules, there is a bit that says...


the moving unit stops immediately (fliers land).

now, why does it specify that fliers land? because they have to stop their movement, and normally they are up in the air. normally, they do not land midflight ever. hwen they land, that is the end of their move. normally.

skirmishers normally move 1 at a time, even though they are all moving at the same time. normally. when the skirmisher move is interrupted by a fanatic though, what happens? we know what happens for normal mover (they stop), we know what happens for flier (they land), what happens for skirmisher? skirmisher doesn't move like normal unit, it has special rules. so, we come to last quote...



warhammer is an involving game, with many different races, weapons, and endless possibilities. in a game of this size and level of complexity ther are bound to be certain occasions where a particular situation lies outside the rules as they are written....

when you come across a situation in a battle that is not covered fully by the rules, be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable house rule for yourselves.

Deacon Bane
07-05-2010, 18:29
You have to read the whole rule, not just the first line. It says skirmishers are moved the same way as individual man-sized characters on foot. As in they don't have to wheel, turn etc. They are not moved "individually". And once the movement is complete they must end up with none more than 1" apart. They are assumed to be moving as a regular unit, all at the same time. As skirmishers must follow all the rules for normal units, except for described circumstances.

yabbadabba
07-05-2010, 18:43
S'alright chaps - Festus is Archbishop at the Church of RAW ;)

sssk
07-05-2010, 19:46
S'alright chaps - Festus is Archbishop at the Church of RAW ;)

That raised a little chuckle.

I think the important thing is that everyone plays it the way they think it should be. If your opponent disagrees, then you have a grown-up conversation with them about it, and if a suitable conclusion still can't be drawn, roll a dice for it (if in doubt, rolling dice is always the answer rather than arguing for ages).

Having said that, if the person does suggest that you have a 15" long unit of skirmishers with no one in the middle 12" (or so) of it for the period of time that the fanatic is released, you then make a mental note never to play against that person again.

Also I believe that intially the prospect of a fanatic teleporting through a forest was suggested. If your opponent suggests that this is how the situation should be played, you're perfectly within your rights to end the game there and go and play a game against someone.... else

AThousandD
12-05-2010, 13:01
The above post by sssk is something I agree with wholeheartedly.

However, I feel I must address the issue of interpreting the rules for skirmishers literally. I've just looked it up, waiting for the forum to allow me to post a thread, and the paragraph about "Formation" clearly refers to moving a unit - and specifies it happens to a group of models or a line. A single model detaching from the group to make its move, only to wait for the rest of the guys to catch up, does not fall within the province of a group moving together, to me. :)

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2010, 14:27
Unit moves as a whole.
If its 5" to the fanantic bubble and your mv4, each member moves 5" to the bubble, stops. Waits for the fanatics to get released and resolved, then continues their final 3" move (if they wish to move further that is).

Best way to resolve it really.
Dont care if its not RAW.

Dragonreaver
13-05-2010, 02:30
Definitely agree with the consensus here.

Anyone who truly believes that the skirmishers are intended to hold position after one of them has moved, while Fanatics are let loose on the poor sod who happened to be picked up first, probably deserves a huge metal ball swung at them for real. :p

AMWOOD co
16-05-2010, 22:01
rtunian found the RAW bit that is missing: "The units stops immediately". When a skirmishing unit stops, every model must be within 1" of eachother. Therefore, when the fanatics are released, the unit must have proper cohesion.

I've had fanatics released by dryads before, and the dryad player always grouped them together so that the closest model was 8" from my night goblins and the rest were within 1". Easy to do, easier to resolve.

Greyfire
18-05-2010, 14:55
rtunian found the RAW bit that is missing: "The units stops immediately". When a skirmishing unit stops, every model must be within 1" of each other. Therefore, when the fanatics are released, the unit must have proper cohesion.
So then it's ok for the rest of the skirmishing unit to move about 1" away from the gobbo unit (assuming movement allowed) to maintain it's skirmisher formation? The unit would end up in a proper formation but could certainly be closer than the skirmisher that triggered the fanatic.

It's that unit being closer than the model that triggered the fanatic that confuses this resolution to me. Plus each model would have to keep track of how far it had moved so it could finish it's movement. I'd need a notebook to keep track of that. And it seems like this could be abused a bit, too.

Abstracting it seem a lot easier. Triggering skirmisher get's hit, unit takes d6 hits, fanatic bounces through the triggering skirmisher, other fanatics are launched to really muck up where the skirmishers could end up, and finish skirmisher movement. Making the unit form up just seems to complicate matters.

(I often use my skinks to trigger fanatics so this isn't academic to me. I'm very interested in playing this correctly for the next 8 weeks.)

yabbadabba
18-05-2010, 16:10
So then it's ok for the rest of the skirmishing unit to move about 1" away from the gobbo unit (assuming movement allowed) to maintain it's skirmisher formation? The unit would end up in a proper formation but could certainly be closer than the skirmisher that triggered the fanatic. How did you work that one out? Its not one skirmisher that is triggering the fanatic, its the unit. Have you confused the need to move skirmishers independently, to being independent as in the rules.

You move your first skirmishing model. It triggers the fanatic. Fanatic remains in its unit so the skirmishing unit can finish its move and remain legal.
You finish moving your skirmishers so that they are within coherency but no closer to the unit with the fanatic than the first model - as the rules for fanatics requires
The fanatic does its bit.

Greyfire
18-05-2010, 20:15
How did you work that one out?
I didn't, that's why I asked.

If I have to "form up" my skinks into a valid formation they're gonna end up in a nice, long line directly in front of the gobbos to interfere with the launching of the fanatics, and hopefully trigger a second gobbo unit. I consider that an abuse of the rules since I'm still allowed to move each skink somewhere on the field that's within a inch of another (and as you mentioned not within 8" of the first gobbo unit -- but there's no restriction on a second gobbo unit).

So far no one has said "move each skirmisher up to whatever amount the triggering skirmisher moved." I haven't seen that anywhere in the book. But if this is the correct way to move skirmishers then I can certainly learn to play it correctly. Fanatics and skirmishers can lead to lots of fun.

I'm still stuck with the problem of remembering where each skirmisher started so that none will exceed their movement if this is what happens. How do people keep track of their movement?

Thanks for helping me to understand this better. I'm wishing I'd seen a discussion like this a few years ago. Everyone hereabouts just plays it like I mentioned.

yabbadabba
18-05-2010, 20:41
I didn't, that's why I asked. Fair enough :D


If I have to "form up" my skinks into a valid formation they're gonna end up in a nice, long line directly in front of the gobbos to interfere with the launching of the fanatics, and hopefully trigger a second gobbo unit. I consider that an abuse of the rules since I'm still allowed to move each skink somewhere on the field that's within a inch of another (and as you mentioned not within 8" of the first gobbo unit -- but there's no restriction on a second gobbo unit). In this case I would say that if your skirmishers move so that they can trigger a second fanatic then the rules apply again. Its actually a valid tactic as I don't remember anywhere there being a limit on how many fanatics a unit can release a turn. Its like dropping a flyer behind two night goblin units. Whether you think that is moral is another question!


So far no one has said "move each skirmisher up to whatever amount the triggering skirmisher moved." I haven't seen that anywhere in the book. But if this is the correct way to move skirmishers then I can certainly learn to play it correctly. Fanatics and skirmishers can lead to lots of fun. True.


I'm still stuck with the problem of remembering where each skirmisher started so that none will exceed their movement if this is what happens. How do people keep track of their movement? I could be wrong but when you trigger the fanatic doesn't the unit stop moving until its next movement phase? And even if it doesn't I've always worked on a bit of honesty - as long as the first skirmisher doesn't over move, and none of the others move beyond the first one it shouldn't be too much of an issue.


Thanks for helping me to understand this better. I'm wishing I'd seen a discussion like this a few years ago. Everyone hereabouts just plays it like I mentioned. I think it might be one of those things that doesn't come up often because people think it is "obvious" in relation to their interpretation or the one they are taught.

rtunian
18-05-2010, 21:13
I could be wrong but when you trigger the fanatic doesn't the unit stop moving until its next movement phase? And even if it doesn't I've always worked on a bit of honesty - as long as the first skirmisher doesn't over move, and none of the others move beyond the first one it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

no, the move is merely interrupted. if the unit which triggered the fanatics was not charging, then after the fanatic release is resolved, they are free to finish their move however they wish (that is also legal). in other words, they can do certain manouevers if they have enough movement left, or they can move, or they can stall. if they triggered the release with a charge, they are obligated to finish the charge

Urgat
19-05-2010, 10:53
Mmmh... it's arguments like this one that make me think that the rumoured fixed formation for skirmishers in 8th is actually a good move (pun not intented).

yabbadabba
19-05-2010, 11:00
no, the move is merely interrupted. if the unit which triggered the fanatics was not charging, then after the fanatic release is resolved, they are free to finish their move however they wish (that is also legal). in other words, they can do certain manouevers if they have enough movement left, or they can move, or they can stall. if they triggered the release with a charge, they are obligated to finish the charge Fair enough. Worrying about how far some models have moved shouldn't be an issue for most. I think this bit is more about being honest than accurate.

Greyfire
19-05-2010, 16:17
Mmmh... it's arguments like this one that make me think that the rumoured fixed formation for skirmishers in 8th is actually a good move (pun not intented).
Respectfully I have to disagree with you. It's arguments like this that make me think the army books need better rules. It would have taken about two sentences in the Orc book to describe exactly how skirmishers should be handled. And I'm not sure how 8th will fix that. :(

yabbadabba
19-05-2010, 16:34
Respectfully I have to disagree with you. It's arguments like this that make me think the army books need better rules. It would have taken about two sentences in the Orc book to describe exactly how skirmishers should be handled. And I'm not sure how 8th will fix that. :( But there rules are there - this isn't poorly written rules, its someone not understanding how they are applied. Its as clear as black and white to me, and probably many others.
There is no need to write the same rules twice, is there?

Greyfire
19-05-2010, 17:06
Maybe so, but by the discussion here I know 15 players that aren't playing it right. No need to restate the above, but I did exactly what it said: stopped moving totally. They just needed to say "skirmishing units should form-up to a legal formation before releasing" and I (and others) would never have been confused. It's obvious to some, I'm sure, but not to all.

Oh, well, I'll have an all new version to goof-up soon. :)

Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 16:13
But there rules are there - this isn't poorly written rules, its someone not understanding how they are applied. Its as clear as black and white to me, and probably many others.
There is no need to write the same rules twice, is there?

I see the point.

1. The lead dryad moves 3" and comes within 8" of the goblins, which triggers the fanatics.
2. The rest of the dryads move up into a legal formation.
3. Fanatics resolved
4. Dryads resume movement, the lead one has another 7", but oh crap I don't have a clue how far the other 7 have moved already because I didn't write it down.

Its just messy and annoying.

Urgat is right, forcing skirmishers into fixed formations will solve this problem (it will also make it idiotic calling them skirmishers but there we are), it will also make them about as flexible as a glass rod, and hence probably much less used.

Urgat
20-05-2010, 16:30
Well, the rule would be very efficient then: if nobody use skirmishers anymore, there won't be arguing about them either :)

yabbadabba
20-05-2010, 17:05
4. Dryads resume movement, the lead one has another 7", but oh crap I don't have a clue how far the other 7 have moved already because I didn't write it down.
Its just messy and annoying. I see the point, but I have never, ever had it come up. This isn't just a 7th ed issue, this has been around for years and yet it has never been an issue - otherwise it would have been an FAQ. Its about just being sensible. I can't see how it is messy and annoying tbh.

Greyfire
21-05-2010, 16:49
I see the point, but I have never, ever had it come up.
I haven't either, even though I wasn't playing it quite right. ;) I'm pretty sure the net result is the same: either a fleeing unit of skinks or the surviving skinks close to the night gobbo unit. I guess I've cheated myself out of the opportunity to spring fanatics from two different units since the surviving skinks most often don't have enough models to form up in a foot long row. I think I'll live (at the cost of hundreds of skinks - poor little guys :(), just need to play it right now.

Did we actually answer the other part of the OP's question? Fanatics may not "bounce" through a unit in some terrain without dieing, right?

yabbadabba
21-05-2010, 17:21
Did we actually answer the other part of the OP's question? Fanatics may not "bounce" through a unit in some terrain without dieing, right? Thats Right.