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kahelekine
03-05-2010, 06:41
How would the Thousand Son's recruit fluff wise? And if they are disembodied spirits in power armour would the newbies have to go through rigorous physical training? Just wondering.....K

Magos Explorator
03-05-2010, 07:04
It's not set in stone, as far as I know.

I like the (unofficial) idea that sorcery can be used to repair damaged suits of power armour and rebind the spirits back in to it.

Alternatively, perhaps they don't recruit and numbers are decreasing over time. Or perhaps the Rubric takes effect on new Marines when they're fully initiated.

DoomedToRepeatIt
03-05-2010, 07:05
The question as to how most Traitor Legions get new recruits is one that is open to supposition and interpretation. I know that in the novel Storm of Iron, it specifically states that the Iron Warriors are willing to use captured Imperial Fist geneseed. For the Sons specifically, I don't think they *do* recruit new soldiers. It's not like they need geneseed implantation, after all. They probably just collect up the armor of "destroyed" Rubric Marines and then reinvest a spirit back into them. But like I said -- that's plain supposition and conjecture on my part.

Helicon_One
03-05-2010, 10:09
I think the Rubric was a one-time deal, so any subsequent recruits would be flesh and blood Chaos Marines.

Whether there are any new recruits taken in is a different matter. I'm not sure that there still is a united 'Thousand Sons Legion' any more, most of the legions have splintered into warbands 10 millennia on and so if the Thousands Sons have followed that pattern then it will likely vary from faction to faction whether they induct new members.

chris.crowing
03-05-2010, 10:15
As I understand it, the directly Chaos-aligned traitor chapters - World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons - are NOT recruiting.

My reasoning for this is as follows...

1. Each of the above chapter's has been markedly changed from the Astartes norm by the influence of Chaos - the World Eaters reduced to scattered warbands, the Death Guard changed into semi-mindless Plague Marines, the Emperor's Children into decadent rakes and the Thousand Sons into Rubric Marines / Sorcerors.
None of the above really go with the concepts of gene-seed implanting apothecary or the Master of Recruits.

2.a- The Traitor Legions from the Horus Heresy largely do not NEED their numbers replenishing. These marines benefit from the time dilation effect of the Eye of Terror, and like all Astyartes are techically immortal in any case.

2.b- Traitor marines will suffer less loss of numbers through combat compared to standard Astartes as they do not have to defend worlds against Ork or Tyranid incursions. Instead the Traitor Marines wuill largely mount limited raids against soft targets or with the massive advantage of surpirse, minimizing casualties. They have nothing to defend, nothing to lose...

3. The extreme Traitor Legions hold pretty much everyone (including each other) in total disregard and I can't imagine they would feel like elevating any mere mortal, who is to them the worm in the gut of a corpse' the the level of a true Astartes.

4. With particular reference to the Thousand Sons. There are two kinds of Thousand Son now - the regular marines, turned to souldust inside their Rubric armour, and the sorcerors. The first batch CANNOT recruit, or be apothecaries and the second bath wouldn't want to raise any new Thousand Sons even if they could, because they would fall prey to the Flesh Change and that is what the Rubric was designed to stop.

Remember that the sorcerors were HORRIFIED by what the Rubric achieved, and they had never intended the armour-automaton effect, merely to stop the Flesh Change. Hence, the would not subject any aspirant to the possibility of either fate...

SO, the dedicated Chaos chapters propbably don't recruit new marines. I accept that the Death Guard might (out of perversity) and the Emperor's Children probably could (especially with Fabius floating about), but the 1000 Sons and World Eaters? No.

On the other side, the Iron Warriors hold garrison worlds and never really 'lost' themselves the way the more deciated Chaos chapters did, so they could recruit in pretty much the usual way, although they do have the fastness of Medenregard and it's funky EoT effects, so they probably don't need to.

That said, the Night Lords and Alpha Legion both operate in the 'real universe' and neither lost their Astartes selves to the dissipation of chaos. Therefore, I reckon they would probably recruit in a similar way to spaceborne Loyalist chapters, especially from the fringes of imperial/human space.

Cyrl
03-05-2010, 10:42
I'd imagine that the closest the Thousand Sons could come to recruiting would be for one of the sorceror's to tutor an apprentice traitor marine in sorcery.

I don't really see this happening however as they jealously guard their secret knowledge and have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of their studies (re: Arihman/Black Library).

You've got to remember that although the Thousand Sons still have all of their heresy-era number, minus combat losses, they don't have a great deal of Gene-seed, it's kind of tough to harvest organs from entombed souls and do you really see a scheming, traitorous sorceror happily popping off his breastplate to let you go to work on his chest?

Hunger
03-05-2010, 10:44
SO, the dedicated Chaos chapters propbably don't recruit new marines. I accept that the Death Guard might (out of perversity) and the Emperor's Children probably could (especially with Fabius floating about), but the 1000 Sons and World Eaters? No.

I believe the current Codex: Space Marines mentions the fact that the World Eaters' psycho-lobotomisation process is still practised by the legion, and by the Black Legion too, the implication being that they would also need new recruits to do it to.

samiens
03-05-2010, 10:44
To be honest, the legions aren't really holding together at this point- something the radical fluff in the 3.5 ed codex tried to retcon but is now back. We know there are still bezerker surgeons, sorcerors who make plague marines and no doubt plenty of marines who undergo surgery and become noise marines. True rubric marines are very unlikely to be made now- though its likely the suits can be repaired or the souls transferred etc. Plus we don't know the attrition rates of thousand sons- it may be hard to cause any real lasting damage to them

shabbadoo
03-05-2010, 10:48
Well, Ahriman is definitely recruiting, as at least one story has him running amok with a squad of veterans who are quite alive, and who are not sorcerers. I can't recall what book the story is in though. Also, somebody mentioned to me that another book/story(no idea where this is) relates how Ahriman does Rubric new recruits into "true" Thousand Sons so as to escape mutation. So, it would seem that Ahriman's forces at least are being maintained.

It is also it is documented that the World Eaters and Black Legion both are well versed in the creation of full-fledged Khorne Berserkers. One can assume that the other dedicated Legions know how to create new cult troops too.

As to creating new Chaos Marines, Fabius Bile provides that service too any Legions who can't already do it themselves.

Spacker
03-05-2010, 12:53
Well, Ahriman is definitely recruiting, as at least one story has him running amok with a squad of veterans who are quite alive, and who are not sorcerers. I can't recall what book the story is in though.

Was that Dawn of War: Tempest? :shifty:

Erwos
03-05-2010, 13:49
The question as to how most Traitor Legions get new recruits is one that is open to supposition and interpretation.
To an extent. I want to say there's canonical information that most, if not all, of the Legions recruit from best of the Lost and the Damned in the Eye of Terror, but I can't remember the source (2E Chaos Codex?). It's not particularly impossible to believe that the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard recruit in such a fashion. In the World Eaters case, think "warbands" rather than "Legion".

That said, the fluff seems to strongly indicate the Rubric was a one-time thing, so there are a couple possibilities:
1. Individual Thousand Sons sorcerers are powerful enough to convert a few new automaton-marines at a time. The trainees could be represented by the generic CSM entry in the codex.
2. There are no new automaton-marines being created. New recruits are human, and eventually (hundreds or thousands of millenia) the Thousand Sons will be all-human again.

The "they're being repaired" theory is reasonable, but inevitable combat losses would mean that, often, there would be nothing at all to repair.

Simo429
03-05-2010, 14:16
madox keeps coming back and he's not a demon so i guess that their spirits just go into different set of armour

chris.crowing
03-05-2010, 14:33
Hmn. While I accept that there is likely canon-fluff proof that the Traitors are re-recruiting (although the full veracity of things like Dawn of War: Tempest must be called into question) I think that it doesn't QUITE make sense, in the consistency of the setting for the EoT traitors in general, and especially those chapters furthest down the mutie route to be recruiting.

It's one of those wonderful plot twists (read: screw ups) on GWs part which renders the entire setting self contradictory. Wonderful, ain't it...

Dhoom
03-05-2010, 22:23
I can't remember which space wolf book it was, but in one of them a sorceror (Madox?) opened some kind of portal that was allowing the fallen spirits of Thousand Sons to possess and reshape the bodies of cultist into rubric marines. If they can do this then every so often they could completely replenish their numbers.

kahelekine
03-05-2010, 23:38
Thank you all for your feedback. Just that if the T-Sons win a battle then recovering suits (instead of geneseed), should be good. If not.....well they lose that many more. In the novel T-Sons, they lost quite a bit of marines to the Wolves.

williamhm
03-05-2010, 23:58
I can't remember which space wolf book it was, but in one of them a sorceror (Madox?) opened some kind of portal that was allowing the fallen spirits of Thousand Sons to possess and reshape the bodies of cultist into rubric marines. If they can do this then every so often they could completely replenish their numbers.

I can see thousand sons doing this actually.

Astrotrain
04-05-2010, 10:43
Question-After the rubric was cast are the sorcerers in the thousand sons unagmented?
Or did they also become power armor ghosts.I was thinking of converting a thousand son sorcerer without a helmet to represent this.

no_one
04-05-2010, 11:38
the sorcerers still have their physical body's IIRC, only the brothers who lacked psychic powers were changed into dust.

Thanatos_elNyx
04-05-2010, 11:46
I can't remember which space wolf book it was, but in one of them a sorceror (Madox?) opened some kind of portal that was allowing the fallen spirits of Thousand Sons to possess and reshape the bodies of cultist into rubric marines. If they can do this then every so often they could completely replenish their numbers.

It was Grey Hunter, the 3rd book in the series.

The Thousand Sons were summoning Magnus. Madox b!tch slaps Ragnar and Sven around the place and there are specially marked Cultists that were being possessed by Thousand Sons spirits. The Puppies tried killing the cultists but they were possessed anyway. They eventually figured out that beheaded cultists couldn't be possessed.

Ragnar managed to stop the summoning by throwing the Spear of Russ through the materialising Magnus the Red

shabbadoo
04-05-2010, 12:07
Was that Dawn of War: Tempest? :shifty:

As I said, I can't recall. I'm not sure I have read DoW:Tempest, so it might or might not be that book. Yes, I read rather voraciously. :D

Erwos
04-05-2010, 12:07
Love your sig, Thanatos_elNyx. It's funny how at least two of the "traitor" Legions never even wanted to turn against the Emperor, but got forced into it.

Thanatos_elNyx
04-05-2010, 13:17
Thanks, is the second legion you refer to the Alpha Legion?

Erwos
04-05-2010, 14:21
Thanks, is the second legion you refer to the Alpha Legion?
Yep. The Horus Heresy book about them is pretty clear that they didn't want to go down the traitor route, and were essentially forced into it. In fact, given that Omegon isn't known to be dead, it could very well be that the Alpha Legion _still_ isn't a true Traitor Legion, and might rejoin the Imperium at some extremely opportune time (eg, Abbadon assaulting Earth and charging towards the Golden Throne).

But that's conjecture, of course.

DoomedToRepeatIt
04-05-2010, 17:27
Yep. The Horus Heresy book about them is pretty clear that they didn't want to go down the traitor route, and were essentially forced into it. In fact, given that Omegon isn't known to be dead, it could very well be that the Alpha Legion _still_ isn't a true Traitor Legion, and might rejoin the Imperium at some extremely opportune time (eg, Abbadon assaulting Earth and charging towards the Golden Throne).

But that's conjecture, of course.


Alpharius isn't known to be dead, either. The Imperium *thinks* he's dead because one of their agents provocateur-Inquisitors said so. I firmly believe that Alpha and Omega are still alive, creating havoc for the fun of it.