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Awilla the Hun
03-05-2010, 09:52
I went to a game yesterday (the details of which are in my batrep thread for those of you who are interested.) Anyway, I was talking to someone, who revealed that he had stopped playing Vampires due to a list which he found too easy to win with. He didn't give me a very detailed analysis, but it basically involved large quantities of Ghouls (which, somehow, could carry out first turn charges), and Blood Knights (which, due to some magic book of something, could charge in the magic phase.)

How do you counter such an army? I apologise for a lack of specifics; also, I'm asking this as a general question, not a red guard only question.

BigbyWolf
03-05-2010, 12:10
For the Ghouls there is a Vampire power that gives all units of Ghouls a free march move before the game starts. This cannot be countered, but may leave his units in your charge range, so if you have cavalry it could also give you a first turn charge.

As for the Knights, there is an arcane item called the Book of Arkhan which casts Vanhels Danse Macabre (free 8" move, can charge) as a bound spell. The Knights can't take it, but it could easily be on a Necro or Vampire, or he could also have it as a spell choice. This can be countered my dispelling/ scrolling as long as you are prepared for it.

Harwammer
03-05-2010, 13:08
I'm always confused when people stop playing their army because they find their list too powerful... Just tone down the list, for VC maybe swap out ghouls for skeletons.

Also VC can't make a first turn charge with ghouls unless 1) the opponent took the very first turn or 2) you are performing some kind of dodgy manoeuvre exploit.

Free march = 8'', March = 8'', Vanhel's = 8''

3 x 8'' = 24''

This is not enough to reach the enemy as the rules of warhammer state you must deploy over 24'' apart.

This rule also invalidates the first turn charge for blood knights (16'' + 8'' = 24) as again they can't move over 24 inches in the first turn. Note if a vampire has access to unseen lurker or wolf hunts then there actually is a chance to make the charges.

I guess my counter would be to inform the guy that he is playing the rules wrong.

Also you don't have to deploy as far forwards as possible. All you need to do is deploy far enough back so they can't reach you in the first turn or deploy where terrain will slow the undead's progress.

RealMikeBob
03-05-2010, 21:11
Flying horror vampire power. March move + flying charge = 1st turn charge.

stashman
03-05-2010, 21:48
I'm always confused when people stop playing their army because they find their list too powerful... Just tone down the list, for VC maybe swap out ghouls for skeletons.


I'm with you all the way. An armybook of any kind of army have lots of units and possiblilties to play with. I really don't understand why some players just use the same 2250 pts list in every battle.

Thats sad!

I pla O&G and I have lots of models and around 7000 pts to play with, without heroes and characters.

Sometimes I play all goblins, sometimes going for a all cav (never won with that ;) , a black orc list (not much else) or anything.

Start a VC army, but don't get dragged in to the "powergaming"

Maoriboy007
03-05-2010, 22:37
A decent magic defence (2 caddies and 2-4 scrolls) should shut down vanhels for a turn, especially if you have Ring Hotek, Becalming PAndemoniums Spell Infernal Puppet and other nonsense as well. The Magic charges are visible a mile away.
Lots of armies have ITP, Stubborn and Unbreakable troops-take em.
Fast Cav, Flying units and sacrificial infantry and skirmishing unitsunits - VC dont take well to being diverted and run around.
Ghouls are ok fighters, but suffer against armour or hig initiatve multiple attack troops.
Always Target characters whenever possible, especially dedicated spellcasters, who tend to be fairly soft.
A combination of flying models inside ghoul units with ghoulkin (Allows a march move at the beginning of the game) can give such a model a first turn charge. It should be noted:
a) said model is isolated and runs the risk of being shot or losing to combat res, the only model relativly safe is Dreadlance red fury lord. Challenge him with ward save character or disposable champ.
b) The free march is before first turn is decided, if he goes second, it could put his units in range of cavalry charge.