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The SkaerKrow
05-05-2010, 12:41
I've experienced a bit of culture shock in going from WHFB to 40k. For a lot of older WHFB players, Special Characters have always been viewed as optional rules, units that can only be fielded with opponent's permission. My own gaming group completely disallows them, even now. Yet in 40k, Special Characters are not only allowed, they're embraced as being integral to several army builds.

This got me wondering, with more emphasis being placed on Special Characters these days, how does your WHFB group handle them? Are they always allowed? Used only with opponent's permission? Or do you continue to ban them outright?

Odin
05-05-2010, 12:55
I only have a small gaming group, none of whom use special characters at all. I'm the only exception because I occasionally use Scyla (I have the model so why not?) and have tried armies featuring Kholek, Throgg and Valkia, partly because they're interesting, and partly in the hope of building a competitive WoC army without just picking a cookie-cutter knight army.

Because they're rarely used, my group doesn't really have any house rules about them. In any case, once the new percentage restrictions come in, I can see most Special Characters dying out completely, as they use up so many more points than other characters.

40K is somewhat different as you say, because of the importance of Special Characters for certain army builds (or chapters). Dark Angels without either Sammael or Belial are just a weaker and more expensive version of normal marines. The same is true of some WHFB characters, but it's not essebtial for anything but the more extreme army builds like the Monster Horde.

the Nurge
05-05-2010, 13:06
My group always allows the use of special characters, but I never take any. I'd rather create my own builds with generic heroes and lords. I also think that a lot of the special characters have special rules that are a bit of an unfair advantage, or are too good for their point costs. Not too worried about it, but I prefer to not use them, myself.

Tambarskjelve
05-05-2010, 13:14
My group never use them, but as I am making a pure clan pestilence list I probably will start using Lord Skrolk sooner or later just to make the army viable. So with opponents permission it should be ok, but we generally never take them or even consider taking them.

willowdark
05-05-2010, 13:18
The funny thing to me is, I've never once been asked for my permission to use a SC. They just get dropped on the board and I go, "Oh! ...okay."

My most regular gaming group never uses them, but there are a couple small groups in my area all orbiting each other, and ours is the only one that gives any thought to it at all. Everyone else uses them liberally.

bigcheese76
05-05-2010, 13:19
We as a group never specifically disallow them, but we also very rarely field them. The only ones I have for my Dwarves are the High King who is far to many points for the game sizes we play, and the White Dwarf, a model you should have your opponents permission to use anyway. For this reason I dont actually field special characters. However in my currently expanding Bretonnia army I am going to be getting the green night as I love the model and the rules.

Alathir
05-05-2010, 13:58
We allow the use of most 7th edition special characters as my gaming group hasn't really found many that are truly game-breaking like some of 6th editions, particularly the heroes of the recent books are balanced and really aren't that bad. Usually if we are going to break out lords we might mention it, but heroes can be used willy nilly - although the player that consistently breaks out the same character with no fluffy reason with receive many a furrowed brow.

logan054
05-05-2010, 14:06
I didnt mind special characters back when you had to ask permission in order to use them, now i think they have just become far to common and really devalue the custome hero. I think thats one of the best things about warhammer, custome heroes!

Malorian
05-05-2010, 14:14
My group has no problems with special characters, and it's up to the individual player to control themselves.


With the one WoC player it's very rare to not see Sigvald or Suneater...


Personally I just take them rarely, and mainly in larger games. (I LOVE Skrag :D)

sssk
05-05-2010, 14:25
My gaming group seems to have an unwritten rule of no special characters. Occasionally grimgor might turn up, and I think I might have spotted one of the skaven special characters....perhaps once.

We tend to work on the basis that special characters are there for a bit of story and maybe if we want to play a specific battle (like re-enacting a story from one of the army books), but not really for playing with.

In my view, the game is there to determine how your characters' story unfolds.

Malorian
05-05-2010, 14:27
My gaming group seems to have an unwritten rule of no special characters. Occasionally grimgor might turn up, and I think I might have spotted one of the skaven special characters....perhaps once.

We tend to work on the basis that special characters are there for a bit of story and maybe if we want to play a specific battle (like re-enacting a story from one of the army books), but not really for playing with.

In my view, the game is there to determine how your characters' story unfolds.

I've decided to join your group ;)

Spike Fiend
05-05-2010, 14:31
We never use Special Characters because we hate them and because we don't want our battles to feature real named Warhammer Characters. To us, Special Characters should stay in the background and be removed from the rules.

Personally, I would only dream of using epic Characters like Malekith, Louen Leoncoeur and Thorgrim in battles between armies that are unbelievably huge (say, 50,000 points +) as I don't think that it would make much sense otherwise... :P

willowdark
05-05-2010, 14:50
Yes, Malekith at 2000 pts makes no sense at all, but at 10k it starts looking a lot better.

I also think that SC can have a real place in a narrative campaign. I've been playing around with the idea of having the first army that gets close to the mountains get waylaid by Kolek (sp?) Suneater and a Drogre/Marauder horde.

dragonet111
05-05-2010, 14:52
We never use Special Characters because we hate them and because don't want our battles to feature real named Warhammer Characters. To us, Special Characters should stay in the background and be removed from the rules.

Personally, I would only dream of using epic Characters like Malekith, Louen Leoncoeur and Thorgrim in battles between armies that are unbelievably huge (say, 50,000 points +) as I don't think that it would make much sense otherwise... :P

I'm with you.
We don't really hate them but we never field them because when we start it was forbidden to field a Special Character without your opponent agreement and we never really get over it:D.
The only thing I like with Special Characters are the minis. The Green Knight favorite model ever.

King_Pash
05-05-2010, 14:53
At the moment my local gaming group is running a campaign with no special characters. Most tournaments in our area also don't allow them so it's actually pretty rare to get a game using one. When we want to field a character for a friendly game it's usually a hero choice (Caradryan or such) and usually with the opponents permission. Only if the player is a real dick do we bring out the heavy guns (now, where's my Teclis model...). :)

rtunian
05-05-2010, 15:15
there's 1 annual tourney in my area that allows special chars, but it also imposes 40% core requirement. otherwise, in league play it's disallowed, in other tourneys disallowed, and then in friendly play i've only ever seen my brother field special chars.

personally i <3 special char models, but </3 special char rules. i use gorbad ironclaw as a black orc warboss. i wish night goblin warboss could field an unmounted great cave squig as a pet so i could use skarsnik w/o his lame-o rules too, alas, he is collecting dust.

N810
05-05-2010, 15:28
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249136&page=19

There are only about 7 of them that ruin it for everybody ealse...
(see link)

The rest of them run the gambit from little beter that a regular hero, to overcosted with wierd useless abilites.

Vulcan7200
05-05-2010, 15:29
The people that I play with, two of us generally stay away from any Special Characters, one of them uses them every now and then, and the other uses them religiously. I've dabbled with a few of them. I've used the 6h Edition Lord Kroak and Kroq-Gar before. And my most frequent opponant has used Skragg, and Greasus Gold-tooth before.

I dislike them though. I think alot of them can be too powerful for their points costs, compared to generic lords. And seeing these great Heroes of a faction turn up in small 1,000 point games seems silly to me. Only one of my friends uses them constantly though. If he puts an army on the field, it WILL be as many Special Characters as he can cram in there, with no fluff reason for them to have joined with that army.

Zaonite
05-05-2010, 15:42
When I have a game arranged I'll usually write a list with a special character and then another almost identical, but without the special character.

When I get to the table I ask my opponent if he's using a named model, if he does then I will too. Spirit of the game and all that.

Urgat
05-05-2010, 16:01
I voted never, but actually I do, I have a Throgg army, but that's pretty much the exception. Even though it's a popular build it seems, you're never going to find Vakya in that army, for instance. Wouldn't be fluffy at all, for starters. We have an untold rule around, we all have armies with their own fluff (and made up generals), so unless there's a possibility that a character pops up in a battle (for instance, the Green knight often gets clearance), no go. Grimgor ain't gonna fight for the Gut'reappas, but if Wurzagh was still around, he might have been fielded now and then.

Talos
05-05-2010, 16:10
We allow Spec characters as we dont see them as being unfair or overpowered. But then I dont think anybody actually uses them. Alot of them cost far to much to use in 2000pt games.
I play skaven and never use any of the special character as I find them pretty bad and overcosted.

GitzBlasta
05-05-2010, 16:37
My group don't use them but mostly because I'm very vocal about hating them. Also, in 40k, I refuse to play against them...
I know that makes me sound like a bastard but I REALLY don't like the idea of this famous character magically appearing in YOUR army.
I'd change my mind for a special occasion, but I'm a firm believer in people having enough of an imagination to use an army that doesn't require a special character.

Sorry, in terms of 40k, if somebody has a specific army that won't work without a special character I'll allow them to use it but I won't like it!

I'm not actually a bastard, I promise.

OldMan
05-05-2010, 17:32
In my group we also don't use special characters. It is not because we have specificaly forbade them, but not taking SC have became kind of unwritten law. This means that suprising opponent with one would seem almost like cheating.

Arkfatalis
05-05-2010, 17:33
We normally use their rules but not their models. We'd rather have the ability to upgrade our own character more, but as we can't we use some special character rules but call the character something else and use another model to represent said character.

Gaargod
05-05-2010, 17:45
Models, all the time. Hell, some of the models are the only ways you can get them on the field (Kroq-Gar's carnosaur for example).

We do actually allow people to use special characters all the time too. A friend has taken up using a Teclis list, which is irritating as hell. It means i've had to upgrade from a mid-powered lizardmen cav list to a full cookie-cutter Slann + double engine (with 80% of points in 3 units at 2k...) to stand on equal ground, more or less - its probably a more powerful list, but i can't roll to save my life.

Another guy is fond of using Grimgor, but that's not so much of an issue as he basically never sees a decent combat versus a competent player.



Feel free to bring whatever type of list you want in other words, but be aware you may get crushed. I'll always try my mid level list first a few times , then if that epic flails... then i may reach for the boring list.

ghostline
05-05-2010, 17:53
I like running Drycha and the forest spirit army. I like to joke and be like "you can't shoot at me, because i didnt move, and your men think there just tree's...".

BigbyWolf
05-05-2010, 17:54
Wherever I've played we've always followed the current editions rules. Who knows, maybe in 8th they'll become "permission only" again?

In general I prefer to use my own characters, the chance to make legends for themselves is too fun to turn down IMO. I do use them every now and then:

When I take my Royal Orcish Artillery army to tournaments (which is pretty rarely these days) I use Gorbad for the extra Ld boost.

I've always wanted a troll army, so use a Throgg one from time to time, but it's probably the least used of my three regular WoC lists.

I've been using Konrad Von Carstein quite regularly these days since I started my Batrep thread, but as the premise of the list depends on it I don't see a problem.

Other than that I don't use any others. They do occasionally pop out for all players when we fight historical or massive battles, and every now and then I see/face one in other players lists. I might curse to myself if I come up against someone using Thorek, Teclis or Kairos/ Scribes, but I just suck it up and get down to the game, and feel even more satisfied if I win.

Hive Mind 33
05-05-2010, 18:23
We use them once in a while, just to see what they can do.

deggaroth
05-05-2010, 19:48
Back in 6th ed, my gaming group use to ask permission to use special characters. The reason being that special characters were the most powerful characters in the game, so the player was, essentially, asking permission to field an overpowered list. In this day and age of 7th ed, we have stopped asking for permission, since the Lord of the End Times looks like a pansy standing next to an elven noble off the street. ;)

Shamutanti
05-05-2010, 19:59
Special characters each and every time for me, be it 40k or FB.

Desert Rain
05-05-2010, 20:22
There aren't any such restrictions where I play. But I don't think that I've ever seen anyone using a special character as most people seems to find them boring.

Justicar_Freezer
05-05-2010, 20:44
In my group none of us really tend to use them in fantasy. The execption to that is our Dogs of War player who runs Borgio or whatever his name is. Though none of us really mind seeing as he's not all that great. For the most part we just find it more fun to create our own characters.

Like for my night goblins. sure I could take Skarsnik but why when I can run Gublla Scrap Snatcha the plucky night goblin warboss who has managed to kill two khorne chaos lords. To me that's just more fun then a special character.

Ancre
05-05-2010, 20:50
I voted "we never use the," but it is really "I never use them". This is because I just can't stand the idea - special character, by definition, have their history already written. It's fun to read it, but not to rewrite it (ie playing a game with them, which will be a battle in which they had a role, for the fluff part). They take all the attention to themselves, because, as their story is already fixed, my unnamed character's and my army's story have to turn around them in order not to be incoherent. And even then sometimes the battle played even contradict their fluff (no, I don't remember Mazdamundi leading southern lizards against Tomb Kings ! ).

So yeah, I dislike them very much because I'm addicted to fluff too much. I like telling stories and doing campaigns, with Mr. Bigorc doing his own mini-waaagh while Mr Proud-Local-Empire-Noble take arms to stop him. I don't like to reenact or rewrite what has already been done. And what makes special characters special is (at least in part) their already written fluff.

Thus the only special characters I can stand are not warhammer's historical figures like Malekith or Archaon, but the "legend-like" loners like Nakai or the Green Knight or the White Dwarf that are specifically described to be like a spirit/passerby/other beneficial random event roll that decides to come help you just because.

(I don't like historical wargames for the same reason I think.)

Drasanil
05-05-2010, 20:54
I haven't played in a while (7th edd kind of turn me off the game), but I generally feel dirty using special characters especially if they're in leadership roles, such as Malekith or Tyrion, it stops being your army and feels more like theirs.

Last time I used one was a 6th edd dark elf VS high elf battle and a fairly large game at that so I dragged out the Everqueen. The game conditions basicly revolved around kill/capture her.

zak
05-05-2010, 20:58
Rarely if ever use the rules, but certainly use the models as some are great sculpts. SC's are allowed if players want to use them, but many people just choose not to.

Zujara
05-05-2010, 21:00
Always allow them, but I never use them myself. I see them every now and then and it doesn't bother me though.

vinush
05-05-2010, 21:01
My group don't actually use Special Characters, but we wouldn't outright ban them (AFAIK) as it hasn't came up yet.

We are, however, a somewhat lenient lot, and are accepting and embracing of Special Characters in 40K (I'd never use them myself, despite how good Sly Marbo actually is).

THE \/ince

Malorian
05-05-2010, 21:03
I generally feel dirty using special characters especially if they're in leadership roles, such as Malekith or Tyrion, it stops being your army and feels more like theirs.

That's an interesting idea and something I haven't really thought about before.

I know in larger orc games I keep my standard warboss the general even if I add Grimgor, and I guess that follows what you are saying.

Alltaken
05-05-2010, 21:26
besides Teclis never seen onw in game. We have nothing against it, but we tend to play custom built heroes rather than characters

AlphaLegionMarine
05-05-2010, 21:28
I some times take Morathi in an all magic build, but other than that I take next to no characters. (I have tried out Hellebron and watched her wreck a White Lion chariot.)

My favorite opponent and the player I play against the most always takes Korhil.

Drasanil
06-05-2010, 00:02
That's an interesting idea and something I haven't really thought about before.

I know in larger orc games I keep my standard warboss the general even if I add Grimgor, and I guess that follows what you are saying.

Yup basicly your Warboss/Dreadlord/Wizard Lord general is supposed to represent "you" on the battle field, which is why it feels kind of wierd using an SC who has to be the general. Basicly "you" got drafted into some one else's army, how ever when it's a hero or what not then it adds more flavour to the game, where "you" are say protecting the Everqueen.

It's the same reason I don't generally use two fighty lords, I got into warhammer when it was 5th eddition and you had a manditory 1 General no more no less.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
06-05-2010, 00:16
Voted opponent's permission but generally the answer is we don't use them. Exceptions made for campaigns [where characters, special or otherwise have stay true to the narrative of the campaign] and for variant army characters, ala Throgg.

someone2040
06-05-2010, 01:14
I like special characters, and some of my armies that I think up are definately themed around a special character. Like the herd of Taurox. Other armies I just collect for the sake of collecting them, and don't feel inclined to drag out special characters, but wouldn't mind doing so either (Although to be fair, those two armies are Lizardmen and Dogs of War. Neither have that attractive special characters in terms of rules).

Zaustus
06-05-2010, 01:47
I voted "with opponent's permission," but really we don't have any specific rules about them. It's just that very few of us actually do; one guy likes to use Valkia, and another uses some HE special characters sometimes, but neither of them is there all the time.

The only time I've ever used a special character was years ago in a "special character bash mega-battle" during Storm of Chaos. I brought Archaon, and he wasn't all that impressive. We bad guys got beaten pretty hard, thanks to Teclis and 6th edition Lord Kroak.

As many have stated, though, the models are usually great and are always fair game for your own generic characters.

Cognitave
06-05-2010, 04:33
This topic again? :rolleyes:

None of my armies have any special characters that I like. It's really easy to tool up an Empire General for around 200 points, and it's not like there's much else that I'd honestly use. Maybe in higher point games, I'd use Balthasar Gelt, but I'd avoid the story centric ones unless I'm doing something specifically about them. But if there was one I liked, and I could really build my army around, I'd include it in my army.

I'm pretty neutral about it. I like seeing fluffy armies built around Special Characters, but I don't really care to play them myself. Cheesing out a casual game is a dick move, but in a tournament, anything goes.

artisturn
06-05-2010, 05:52
Gaming group I play in is OK with them and they get used often and I am OK if my opponent uses them.

My self I like to use special characters in larger games and have only used Konrad in a few smaller games but I would rather build and use my own characters which support my army better than a Special Character tends too.

I did play one game where it was teams at 10K per side and between the four of us we had a least 10 special characters running around.

ftayl5
06-05-2010, 06:26
I (and my mates) allow special characters at appropriate pts levels. Karl Franz aint gonna turn up to a skirmish in the forests of Ostermark. Skulltaker aint gonna be that worried if he misses the opportunity to reap skulls during the pillaging of pne tiny little village. And etc

In BIG games or themed games, we allow special characters. In a regular little battle, special characters = no sir-ee

We're very into fluff, and hance practically ahve our own special characters

danny-d-b
06-05-2010, 06:48
at my local we allow special caracters if you can come up with a with the fluff for them

so having KF e.c.t turn up at a bar brawl isnn't going to happen. however the local goblin player swichers between grom and snarsnic, and I use festus in my corupted nurglised empire army.

I think we saw thorck ones but he has never been seen again after we agreeed that after the 2nd game he came out we would all we would all be able to throw the model against the wall as hard as we like after game- the same goes for tecles and any deamons

the only other caracter we see is count manfread but he isn't getting played much as we are playing 1500 at the mo

Symrivven
06-05-2010, 09:04
At the group where I play we allow special characters, but we hardly ever use them.
If we do we generally give a heads up, this gives the opponent the option to add some extra cheese or a special character of his own to his list.

My most frequent used special character would be Malus as he is such a great boost to the Cok's.

Eta
06-05-2010, 09:32
In my gaming group we normally do not use special characters (or dragons). If someone wants to try one out, he/she will have to ask for permission (which is rarely denied). This way, you can at least prepare your list to be able to face the OTT character.

Greetings
Eta

Woodsman
06-05-2010, 09:42
We don't mind too much either way although it's generally considered protocol that you would ask a player the previous week.

I think SC's can become a bit of a crutch at times. They change the way their uni/army acts and I've seen players struggle to use certain combos without the SC's present.

Having said that, I love the models specially KH and LS of empire and a fair few others as well and have no problem with people using said models to represent something else.

Nicha11
06-05-2010, 09:55
I'm happy to play with or against SC.

Some of them are very good for their points, but then many, many units are.

~PrometheuS~
06-05-2010, 10:13
My group are a bunch of power gamers, we allow them as it sometimes enables us to build far better lists :)

SamVimes
06-05-2010, 19:56
I voted never, but I really should qualify that a bit. Unless the the character changes the allowed force organization (Throgg, Kalida, etc.) then they are banned.

N810
06-05-2010, 20:01
I'm happy to play with or against SC.

Some of them are very good for their points, but then many, many units are.

Actualy about 7 of them are too good for the points, :cheese:
and the rest are not... :angel:

Peregijn
07-05-2010, 11:03
we never use them without permission, we are all old school players from the time permission was needed to field them.

but this threat makes me think about a massive battle between my chaos and my friends vampire counts... we both have the models for huge battles and the models for special chars... think ill call him up

N1AK
07-05-2010, 11:38
The funny thing to me is, I've never once been asked for my permission to use a SC. They just get dropped on the board and I go, "Oh! ...okay."


Special characters are listed in the army book and by the rules of the game as legitimate a choice as any other option, I'd be surprised if people felt they had to get permission before choosing which units they can use.

I'd far rather an opponent took Skulltaker (on foot) than a mounted 0+ armour save -2 LD banner Herald! It'd be easier to beat a VC player using Vlad than one using a 6PD, Book and Helm carrying custom built lord. Who cares about facing Luther Huss compared to facing 2 Steam Tanks and a War Alter?

The number of under-priced special characters is actually pretty low (going by non-comp tournaments Kairos, Skulltaker, Masque and Thorek are the popular choices). But most armies have non-special character choices that are under-priced; Daemons: The whole book, DE: Hydras, Harpies & Shades, Skaven: Doomwheel, Giant Rat packs etc.

WarmbloodedLizard
07-05-2010, 12:43
never. few of them are balanced, and regular characters that change all the time are much more interesting.

Maelstorm
07-05-2010, 18:58
I say at special occasions, they are ok, but some of them should really be slapped back to the fluff (Kairos, Archaon, Teclis and so on).

I did however play a really fun all-monster-list, using Kholek as general and Throgg as a hero, then just fielding trolls, drogers, shaggoths, som forsaken and spawns and hounds. Unfortunatly, I played a raise-VC-list, and i had no magic def whatsoever...really fun game though, fluff-wise and nice as only a monster attack out of Troll County can be :D