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kiron
05-05-2010, 19:27
I stopped playing warhammer for 3 years and I'm getting back into the game. Now i'm curious what would 8th ed. do to empire, I know I won't be able to use 2 tanks in a 2k army anymore due to the percentage rules. My heavy cavalry will get nerfed a bit since they can't march anymore. What else?

Lordsaradain
05-05-2010, 19:33
ATM, I cant think of any positive changes for empire.

:P

Leogun_91
05-05-2010, 19:59
ATM, I cant think of any positive changes for empire.

:P50% Core allows for quite effective uses of the detatchment rules as you wouldn't need to have three units and two fully detatchment units can easily reach 50%.

And if characters are 25% rather then fixed lord and hero choices the cheapest source of Ld9 suddenly becomes a good choice

The magic changes may very well favor boundspells and they have many of them.

If character mounts are chosen from rare rather then character allowance (one possible rumour) then a tripple Waraltar combo (or waraltar and dragon) could be quite devastating.

TeddyC
05-05-2010, 20:01
ATM, I cant think of any positive changes for empire.

:P

I can, it means people cant defile the fluff with 2 steam tanks in 2k!

Zinch
05-05-2010, 20:11
Well, this is said that will be a edition that emphasizes in infantry, so I think will be a lot of good changes to empire (they have a lot of cheap infantry at their disposal)

It could mean less heavy cavalry? Maybe

The Horde rules (Empire have one of the cheapest infantry in the game) will benefit them at least.

Commodus Leitdorf
05-05-2010, 20:29
None of the changes will effect the Empire greatly. It's one of the perks of being a middling "jack of all trades" army. No matter how much they mess with the rules they can't really hose us like they could other armies.

Vineas
05-05-2010, 20:39
ATM, I cant think of any positive changes for empire.

:P


You have the .pdf early or something? Not sure how one paragraph of rumored rules equates to 100's of pages of ACTUAL rules.

Arkfatalis
05-05-2010, 22:33
Shooting in two ranks will make Empire more effective in the shooting turn. However, with combat possibly getting an extra rank empire will be wiped out in the combat phase against superior troops. Before, we could use numbers but with more troops getting killed quicker our numbers will become void. I reckon swordsmen are not going to be core aymore as Halberdiers will be due to them getting good armour save modifiers.

Also I reckon greatswords will be used more as armour save modifiers will be harder to get and only apply to certain weapons (halberds) so people will want a unit that can hit back hard, with good armour so they will use greatswords.

I also reckon flagellants will become void as their non exsistent armour save means they will get hacked apart quite easily, and with armour saves being harder to get the steam tank may be used more as people see the flagellants as too easily wiped out, the rocket thing as too unreliable and the volley gun as not being worth it due to two rank firing. But this may all be proved wrong.

R Man
06-05-2010, 02:46
If anything, Empire benefit greatly. The Stepping up rule will allow players to get the most out of their infantry. Slower heavy cavalry means other armies also have slower heavy cavalry. You can take advantage of cheaper heroes and lords and you can still cram a load of guns into the list. And the Empire Infantry will also indirectly benefit from their being less uberness spread about the board.

The_Bureaucrat
06-05-2010, 02:56
One interesting thing to note is that with 25% Char cap and 15% rare caps, I think we'll be seeing a lot fewer dragons, greater demons and other big uglies. This may cause a drop in the value of cannons. The impact that this has on empire armies will definitely be interesting.

Lordsaradain
06-05-2010, 05:49
The Horde rules (Empire have one of the cheapest infantry in the game) will benefit them at least.

I'm not so sure. How many uses 10+ wide units of state troops atm?
Noone, AFAIK, and I dont think people will go through the trouble to construct such large units. I cant see how it would be effective either.

Always using initiative when fighting will nerf Empire against most other armies.

If heavy cav cant march than thats another nerf for Empire.

I'm not sure about the 3+ save rumour and not being able to march, but I hope it doesnt apply to characters, because if it does, I cant give my empire captains full plate armour and sheild anymore.

As or shooting in two ranks, there are some conflicting rumours, but one is that only archers will shoot in two ranks, so that will hardly benefit Empire.

Leogun_91
06-05-2010, 06:20
I'm not so sure. How many uses 10+ wide units of state troops atm?
Noone, AFAIK, and I dont think people will go through the trouble to construct such large units. I cant see how it would be effective either. At the current time you need other things to fill the core, in 8th you could probobly use one or two maxed out statetroop regiments instead (which is as good as 6 units anyways).


Always using initiative when fighting will nerf Empire against most other armies.Against:

Greenskins: No
Lizardmen: No
Dwarfs: No
Highelfs: No they allready have ASF
Darkelfs: Yes
Woodelfs: Yes
Vampirecounts: No
Tombkings: No
Warriors of Chaos: Yes
Daemons of Chaos: Depends, there are many different I values depending on god etc
Beastmen: No
Ogres: No
Skaven: Yes

I count 8,5 not against 5,5 yes so most is an exaggeration.

If heavy cav cant march than thats another nerf for Empire.And for many others.


I'm not sure about the 3+ save rumour and not being able to march, but I hope it doesnt apply to characters, because if it does, I cant give my empire captains full plate armour and sheild anymore.Just give them an unbarded horse as well, it doesn't look as good but gamewise it works.


As or shooting in two ranks, there are some conflicting rumours, but one is that only archers will shoot in two ranks, so that will hardly benefit Empire. Or it may, it depends on what troops that get to fire in two ranks.

You can also see my early post which gave many suggested benefits.

danny-d-b
06-05-2010, 06:34
ATM, I cant think of any positive changes for empire.

:P

I can think of plenty- but rather than looking at how the empire army is effected, you have look in realtion to other books

the cap on carrathers is fine for empire as they don't need there full allowence anyway, in my 1500 point I'm going with a priest, a BSB with griffon banner (on horse) and a level 2 beast wizard (for bears anger). however this mean we are also going to see less super caracters or massive magic phases so that is going to help!

also making inf better goes a long way, detachements and big blocks of core are back- I mean swordsmen are I4 so have can strike before some stuff. while at the same time I'm thinking of running my flagents 10 wide to get the horad rule (might pick up 10 more to make them 30 big depending on the aturall rule)

the other thing is that due to fear/terror no longer auto breaking Greatswords are going to hold more and so prob could do with having smaller units

all in all I think the rumours are good for empire and I'm kind of glad I've not re-painted my empire yet to nurglised empire (WOC rules) though I'm still thinking maybe depending on ally rules maybe picking up some plauge monkes to my WOC army

Zinch
06-05-2010, 06:45
I'm not so sure. How many uses 10+ wide units of state troops atm?
Noone, AFAIK, and I dont think people will go through the trouble to construct such large units. I cant see how it would be effective either.


You have said it: at the moment.
With the new rules of movement (every unit moving like light cavalry) maybe that kind of unit is far easier to maniobrate (note: I hate this rumour, it reduces a lot of the tactical thinking in the movement phase, but that's another topic).

Leogun_91 has answered all the rest quite well... ;)

Lordsaradain
06-05-2010, 08:15
At the current time you need other things to fill the core, in 8th you could probobly use one or two maxed out statetroop regiments instead (which is as good as 6 units anyways).

Against:

Greenskins: No
Lizardmen: No
Dwarfs: No
Highelfs: No they allready have ASF
Darkelfs: Yes
Woodelfs: Yes
Vampirecounts: No
Tombkings: No
Warriors of Chaos: Yes
Daemons of Chaos: Depends, there are many different I values depending on god etc
Beastmen: No
Ogres: No
Skaven: Yes

I count 8,5 not against 5,5 yes so most is an exaggeration.
And for many others.

Just give them an unbarded horse as well, it doesn't look as good but gamewise it works.

Or it may, it depends on what troops that get to fire in two ranks.

You can also see my early post which gave many suggested benefits.

Since when do empire players have problems filling up their core? I guess they might have some more problems now that knights seem abit less effective, but still, this isn't an issue that will particularily benefit empire.

Ok, "most" was an exaggeration. :p
Beatsmen: No?
Dont have the book with me atm, but I'm pretty sure they have quite alot of options with I>3, dont they?

And what does giving my character an unbarded horse have to do with anything? I was talking about an unmounted character


You have said it: at the moment.


Empire state troops are cheap, but they are not THAT cheap.
WoC, BM, O&G, Skaven all have infantry that are just as cheap or even cheaper.

I dont know why anyone would like to construct a 10x5 unit anyway. At twice the cost, it gets the same rank bonus as a 5x5 unit and some additional (weak) attacks (and most likely, alot of models in a 10 man wide unit will not get to strike, unless you are facing similarily wide enemy units).

I may be wrong, and I have yet to read to new book to find out what is true and what isn't, but I fail to see the point of fielding such a large(and expensive) unit.

sigur
06-05-2010, 09:20
Rumours can't affect anything. Let's see what the rules will do.

Lordsaradain
06-05-2010, 09:39
Yes, but if the rumours about the new rules are true, they certainly will have effects. ;)

Leogun_91
06-05-2010, 10:54
Since when do empire players have problems filling up their core? I guess they might have some more problems now that knights seem abit less effective, but still, this isn't an issue that will particularily benefit empire. It's a small benefit but not much, the detatchment system togheter with the horde rule does give this a bonus. At the current environment without a horde rule no-one would make such maxed out units with many detatchments but that might change.


Ok, "most" was an exaggeration. :p
Beatsmen: No?
Dont have the book with me atm, but I'm pretty sure they have quite alot of options with I>3, dont they?They have a few but not too many and in the cases where they don't horde units would pretty much eat them alive (no saves VS almost a full unit striking).


And what does giving my character an unbarded horse have to do with anything? I was talking about an unmounted characterIn-game there is no reason not to take the horse if said changes are true, theme wise it screws you a little as a commander on foot is cool but there is no reason gamewise not to take it for a few extra pts.




Empire state troops are cheap, but they are not THAT cheap.
WoC, BM, O&G, Skaven all have infantry that are just as cheap or even cheaper. They are cheap enough to be used as horde units even if there are armies with units that are cheaper.


I dont know why anyone would like to construct a 10x5 unit anyway. At twice the cost, it gets the same rank bonus as a 5x5 unit and some additional (weak) attacks (and most likely, alot of models in a 10 man wide unit will not get to strike, unless you are facing similarily wide enemy units). Beacouse of the rumoured Horde rule? We are talking possible rumours here remember.


I may be wrong, and I have yet to read to new book to find out what is true and what isn't, but I fail to see the point of fielding such a large(and expensive) unit. Again, the horde rule might come and that would change alot.

Gaargod
06-05-2010, 11:40
Leogun, Lordsaradin was talking about the rumour that anyone with a 3+ save or better can't march, mounted or not (not affecting monsters). In that case, as full plate and shield = 3+, he can't even have a captain with that.
Not fond of that rumour. At all. If, by sticking him on a steed, he can walk while his unit marches it won't be too bad. Otherwise, quite a lot of characters get the short end of the stick.

Odin
06-05-2010, 12:02
Shooting in two ranks will make Empire more effective in the shooting turn. However, with combat possibly getting an extra rank empire will be wiped out in the combat phase against superior troops. Before, we could use numbers but with more troops getting killed quicker our numbers will become void. I reckon swordsmen are not going to be core aymore as Halberdiers will be due to them getting good armour save modifiers.

Also I reckon greatswords will be used more as armour save modifiers will be harder to get and only apply to certain weapons (halberds) so people will want a unit that can hit back hard, with good armour so they will use greatswords.

I also reckon flagellants will become void as their non exsistent armour save means they will get hacked apart quite easily, and with armour saves being harder to get the steam tank may be used more as people see the flagellants as too easily wiped out, the rocket thing as too unreliable and the volley gun as not being worth it due to two rank firing. But this may all be proved wrong.

Current rumour is that shooting in two ranks is only for bows, which will be annoying for my Empire army (but good news for my Wood Elves!).

I played a game with some of the rumoured changes at the weekend. My flagellants got charged by some Black Knights who killed quite a few of them, but because of the stepping up rule the Flagellants annihilated the Black Knights in return. So their role is somewhat changed, but I think they will still be very useful. They will die quicker, but all they need to do is cause carnage in the first round of combat, then hold up what's left of the enemy unit for a turn or two so someone else can get a flank charge in.

soots
06-05-2010, 12:14
As an empire player...

Im taking in A LD9 lord every game, including 1k games.

Also taking in minimum 2 mortars now. Theyll be awesome.

Im actually more interested in seeing our book update which should be within the next 12 months hopefully. They need to make our stuff in line with costs for other horde armies such as skaven.

Grand Warlord
06-05-2010, 14:21
I think it will come down to the build of the list. I can see my infantry heavy lists getting some major benefits, but I could see other lists not getting so many.

I am still going to see the book before i buy anything though :)

Erloas
06-05-2010, 14:46
Wasn't part of the horde rule rumor that the entire frontage get to fight, not just ones in base contact and those behind? If you've got 30ish attacks thats going to be doing some wounds to pretty much anything.

With strength not negating armor the same way Empire troops will get better saves more often, especially against the more elite units which are generally harder hitting.

The rumor that any unit that has more ranks then the opponent is stubborn that would make a 40-50 model unit fairly hard to break. They would have to loose 6 models before loosing the first rank bonus, and have to loose 16 before the second. Even super units have a hard time dealing 16 wounds in 2 rounds, and they'll have better saves to help as well.

Several of the armies that have higher I then empire and will go first in combat also happen to be armies with higher movement rate too and almost always get the charge currently anyway. A few of the armies that have lower Is are currently armies that also out-range empire and would get to strike first now. The d6/2d6 charge will most often be the same or better for m4 armies like Empire, but will be worse for all of those faster armies. And while heavy cav might not be able to march, they are going to average farther on their charges.

The update of the core magic lores will help too, because they are one of the few armies without an army specific lore. Being more reliant on core lores and not having the usually better army specific lores will make empire closer in magic relative to what it is now. The power and dispel dice changes also means empire can take fighter characters for the LD boost they need as well as still having magic defense and having the possibility of actually getting spells off without going 100% magic on their characters.

The changes to Fear and Terror should help a lot as well since they are an army with almost no access to either and their relatively low LD is less of an issue when facing either.

I think overall Empire is probably going to see the most benefit from these changes.

Leogun_91
06-05-2010, 15:41
Leogun, Lordsaradin was talking about the rumour that anyone with a 3+ save or better can't march, mounted or not (not affecting monsters). In that case, as full plate and shield = 3+, he can't even have a captain with that.
Not fond of that rumour. At all. If, by sticking him on a steed, he can walk while his unit marches it won't be too bad. Otherwise, quite a lot of characters get the short end of the stick.
I understood that and thought that he would be able to walk when his unit marches.

Lordsaradain
06-05-2010, 15:51
I think overall Empire is probably going to see the most benefit from these changes.

Good points. 8th might not be so bad for empire after all. :D

Jind_Singh
06-05-2010, 15:58
If character mounts are chosen from rare rather then character allowance (one possible rumour) then a tripple Waraltar combo (or waraltar and dragon) could be quite devastating.

Except that there is ONLY 1 War Alter allowed per Empire army, no matter how big, as there is only ONE in existence in the entire Empire - and it's even a FAQ about being just a single model!

Odin
06-05-2010, 16:31
Except that there is ONLY 1 War Alter allowed per Empire army, no matter how big, as there is only ONE in existence in the entire Empire - and it's even a FAQ about being just a single model!

It really ought to be a Special Character mount only - have the Grand Theogonist as an SC and remove it as an option for Arch-Lectors (which it never shoudl have been).

Lordsaradain
06-05-2010, 17:15
It really ought to be a Special Character mount only - have the Grand Theogonist as an SC and remove it as an option for Arch-Lectors (which it never shoudl have been).

You would like the option to give your arch lector the most powerful empire mount removed?

My conclusion is that you cant possibly be an Empire player yourself...
Heresy!
:p

Maoriboy007
06-05-2010, 19:22
Greatswords may actually be worth it as they will be basically immune to fear and terror.

Leogun_91
06-05-2010, 20:32
It really ought to be a Special Character mount only - have the Grand Theogonist as an SC and remove it as an option for Arch-Lectors (which it never shoudl have been).We have the grand theogonist as a SC with it.....it just isn't removed.

You would like the option to give your arch lector the most powerful empire mount removed?

My conclusion is that you cant possibly be an Empire player yourself...
Heresy!
:p
I would like it removed even though I have a small empire army (which I plan to expand) due to the fluff things with it (it is a fluff abomination).
Those that still lives it too much can just use Volkmar after that. And there are only two arch-lectors anyways and one of them is a SC, the waraltar can at least be there for historical armies from a time before Volkmar.

soots
06-05-2010, 21:14
It really ought to be a Special Character mount only - have the Grand Theogonist as an SC and remove it as an option for Arch-Lectors (which it never shoudl have been).

both stank and waltar should have been special characters.

Cognitave
07-05-2010, 00:36
both stank and waltar should have been special characters.

I haven't had a terrible experience against the War Altar, so I don't think I should comment on it. But I do think stanks should be unique. I can see the College of Engineers issuing one to a general, but not two.

Also, the Stubborn for ranks rule is really, really nice. Although it pisses on Goldswords a bit if taken in low numbers, it means our mainstay troops with a general nearby are incredibly hard to break.

Cambion Daystar
07-05-2010, 18:33
But I do think stanks should be unique. I can see the College of Engineers issuing one to a general, but not two.
Same can be said for dragons.

Fideru
07-05-2010, 19:02
Same can be said for dragons.

I thought there was only one Dragon in the zoo/Empire? I don't have my army book on me so I'm not 100% sure, but I assumed that it was unique, like the War Altar.

I'll be the first to admit, I could be and more than likely am completely wrong. It's just my perspective.

TeddyC
07-05-2010, 20:00
I thought there was only one Dragon in the zoo/Empire? I don't have my army book on me so I'm not 100% sure, but I assumed that it was unique, like the War Altar.

I'll be the first to admit, I could be and more than likely am completely wrong. It's just my perspective.

correct, only one dragon, THE imperial dragon... and unlike otehr armies.. only Franz can ride it, IIRC.

Wasnt there somewhere stated in the fluff that there are only 12 stanks in existence anyway?

On that basis I would say 0-1 unless you are playing big games (4/5k +)

Spiney Norman
07-05-2010, 20:04
50% Core allows for quite effective uses of the detatchment rules as you wouldn't need to have three units and two fully detatchment units can easily reach 50%.

And if characters are 25% rather then fixed lord and hero choices the cheapest source of Ld9 suddenly becomes a good choice

The magic changes may very well favor boundspells and they have many of them.

If character mounts are chosen from rare rather then character allowance (one possible rumour) then a tripple Waraltar combo (or waraltar and dragon) could be quite devastating.

Its noteworthy that all Empire detachments count as non-compulsory core units, even if they're attached to units which are not core (i.e. greatswords).

Empire could benefit from the hordes rule and the rumoured shooting-in-two-ranks rule. They also have the steel standard which will be essential for helping to mitigate the randomness of movement.

Empire also have a relatively cheap monstrous mount in an era when such things are going to be extremely rarely seen.

Warmachines like cannons, mortars and helstorm rocket batteries are also likely to be much more effective if the rumours that guess range is gone prove to be correct.

soots
07-05-2010, 23:12
Im pretty sure detachments will count as core. They just couldnt count as 1 of your 3 core choices.

Odominus
07-05-2010, 23:44
Good posts so far. Lots of things are dead on. Helstorms may be devastating. A horde unit of greatswords with WP (hatred) sounds soo nasty. And we do not know if a "horde" unit checks its "stubborn" status turn to turn. Maybe at some point, they could lose stubborn. Not so with greatswords. Their 4+ AS may actually hold up fairly well against other elite infantry. 20 attacks needing at worst 4's to hit (with hatred reroll) nets you avg 15 str 5 hits coming back. Dont forget to add the bsb with griffin standard! If it were a tourney and SC are allowed, I would replace the WP with Luther Huss and call him my general. Then add a lvl 4 mage with VHS to stand right next to Luther.

Cognitave
08-05-2010, 00:00
correct, only one dragon, THE imperial dragon... and unlike otehr armies.. only Franz can ride it, IIRC.

Wasnt there somewhere stated in the fluff that there are only 12 stanks in existence anyway?

On that basis I would say 0-1 unless you are playing big games (4/5k +)

You're correct on the first account, and partially on the 2nd. There were 12 stanks, now only 8 remain.

Putty
08-05-2010, 02:41
don't get ahead of yourself chaps.

an army of ws 3 / s 3 core with zero special rules won't get you very far.

the strength of empire is in its special (cannons & pistoleers) and rare (stank). arch lector and warrior priest is nice but given the new percentile rules, you can't really overload on them... and they die quickly once in combat.

we'll have to see what 8th does to the shooting phase... its probably the most important phase to empire because of the amount of war machines they can pack.

no more double stanks though... you'd need 600 points to do that and that'll require 2500 point games for that to happen. given, the stank looks over-priced when compared next to things like HPA , Plague Furnace, Hydra and Jabberslyth.

Lyynark
08-05-2010, 09:08
And there are only two arch-lectors anyways and one of them is a SC

Wrong, there are two arch lectors and one grand theogonist. However, all are named.

The inclusion of Arch Lectors is rather silly though, remember when GW decided that "Elector Count" should be General of the Empire instead since the EC are unique?

Regarding 8th I hope to see a rise in infantry power since I play an infantry centric army (never use stank or waltar).

Tactical Retreat!
08-05-2010, 13:23
Eh. Can't be that many Star Dragons, Archmages, Greater Daemons and whatnot around either but they are still in army lists and used all the time.

Fideru
08-05-2010, 18:25
Eh. Can't be that many Star Dragons, Archmages, Greater Daemons and whatnot around either but they are still in army lists and used all the time.

Oh, I apologize I didn't mean to sound hostile. I was just seriously wondering at the time because I love to stay within fluff for my army, instead of say buying 15 STanks for example.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-05-2010, 14:31
Fighting in two ranks and related rumours sounded good at first but at a closer look, I don't think it will be noteworthy. Of course, 30 attacks will cause a wound or two, four against clanrats and the like but that's about it. Don't forget that the more wounds you cause, the more likely the opposing unit will have replacement models. Elves are an exception here. Going 10 wide might not be recommended when the increase in kills is meaningless. After all you don't need it to become stubborn but you will want to have more ranks most of the time.

I haven't heard whether models that are not in b2b can actually fight (except the ones in the second rank behind ones in b2b). This will be interesting to find out.

However, even when stubborn you will want to make sure that you have the BSB around. Re-rollable Ld 7 is okay, Ld 7 only is haphazard and certainly not what I would call reliable.

If a failed fear test really means that you cannot fight, we have little..uhm, to fear - killing stuff isn't the Empire's forte, so we're not really losing anything.

The loss of outnumber I frankly do not like. Not much I can do about it but still.

Sand
11-05-2010, 15:54
Ok, "most" was an exaggeration. :p
In fact it was more than that ;)
As it is, the rumored initiative rules would seem to end up being a boon for the Empire against most opponents.

Von Wibble
11-05-2010, 18:50
Changes seem for the most part to be good for Empire. Oc this is realy speculative at this tmie..


Characters

Empire are cheaper so this is definately good news whilst the cap prevents enemies having loads. Dispel dice generation seems independant from warrior priests so I think they will lose out there, but with generally less DD full stop and casting spells being more dangerous the bound prayers seem more useful. Empire will be one of few lists that can safely include 4 charactes at 2500 with smart budgeting.

Core

STUBBORN ftw! And remember that flank charges remove enemy stubborn (regardless of units size?), so detachments don't need to be huge to hurt enemies. Extra attacks is meh for infantry. A minimum of 25% hardly hurts empire since a unit of state troops, handguns, cheap knights, detachments and flagallants (from priest choice) makes these points easily. Less save modifiers to make swordsmen harder to kill also, but a potential nerf to handguns and crossbows here. Archers are better with more terrain around. Knights have been weakened - but so have everyone elses and they are not that expensive.

Special

With more terrain in the game those pistoliers look better and better! Template changes could improve the mortar. Otoh greatswrods don't gain so much as they are already stubborn - but they benefit from that extra rank so going wide could be a plan. 2 cannons not such a necessity if star dragons and the like can't be fielded in smaller games.

Rare

Helstorm could get better. Flagallants actually get to use their flails instead of having front rank wiped out first, and lots of them too! Never used steam tanks and never want to so I couldn't care less about that thing!

Other notes

Fear and terror seem different in their effects - tough to say how this wil play out. General radius immune to panic is very nice for empire. As emprie tend to get charged the I rules are a plus not a minus.

Sand
11-05-2010, 19:26
Characters

Empire are cheaper so this is definately good news whilst the cap prevents enemies having loads. Dispel dice generation seems independant from warrior priests so I think they will lose out there, but with generally less DD full stop and casting spells being more dangerous the bound prayers seem more useful. Empire will be one of few lists that can safely include 4 charactes at 2500 with smart budgeting.
Yeah. I also think we might conceivably pack quite a lot of characters in. A Captain is hardly amazing under today's rules, but for 60ish points he makes a nice buff to any Empire infantry unit, if we don't have to worry about slots anymore.

I. Nailo
11-05-2010, 20:55
Yeah. I also think we might conceivably pack quite a lot of characters in. A Captain is hardly amazing under today's rules, but for 60ish points he makes a nice buff to any Empire infantry unit, if we don't have to worry about slots anymore.

That's what I've been pondering, personally. In large enough games you can stick captains in a lot of units, especially if you just use him for the extra attacks/wounds and don't kit him out with much (or any) magic items.

All you really need is a commander (and maybe a BSB, I haven't seen any rumors on how they're changing), maybe a couple wizards, and then give a captain to any units that could use a hand in melee. It might detract from how many units you end up with, or even their size, but it packs a nice punch. Captains aren't the greatest characters, but they still have the attacks, gear, and stats to make them good in combat.

Crovax20
11-05-2010, 21:30
I would love to field more captains in my force. Right now I hardly ever field them because we mostly play 1000-1500 points and a warrior priest is just a way better choice for that.

ChaosVC
12-05-2010, 03:18
Steam tanks are probably getting an armour value and you may have to roll for glance or penetration after you hit it. So your oponents need a specialise weapon to deal with your stank...for example an ap1 sword with a strength 10 character yay!

Well why don't you wait for the new rules to be release before you start doing anything with your army?

Yes I agree warrior priest is better than captain in a "less than 2k" for leading the army unless you love battle standard bearers.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-05-2010, 05:08
A minimum of 25% hardly hurts empire since a unit of state troops, handguns, cheap knights, detachments and flagallants (from priest choice) makes these points easily.


I agree that the percentage thing doesn't hurt us but what kinds of units do you plan to field if a single unit of State Troops is easily 500 points? :)



With more terrain in the game those pistoliers look better and better!


Perhaps. I have read that all other units will have a much easier time to move and to reform.


Steam tanks are probably getting an armour value and you may have to roll for glance or penetration after you hit it. So your oponents need a specialise weapon to deal with your stank...for example an ap1 sword with a strength 10 character yay!

Will they hit rear armour in close combat?

ChaosVC
12-05-2010, 05:59
Will they hit rear armour in close combat?

Would you prefer to hit the rear with your sword?

Von Wibble
12-05-2010, 18:11
I agree that the percentage thing doesn't hurt us but what kinds of units do you plan to field if a single unit of State Troops is easily 500 points? :)



I didn't say that. I said a unit of state troops plus handguns plus knights plus detachments plus flagellants easily makes 625pts. I take all of these in my 2500 points army, and usually its 2 units of state troops rather than 1.

On characters, personally I think with a cap removed (big if, and personally I hope it doesn't happen), could 1 pegasus captain, 1 wizard, 1 bsb, 1 priest and 1 general not be a good option? If not excessively kitted out this can be done for under 625 points, giving a very flexible setup.