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RyVin
06-05-2010, 10:56
Okay does anyone think that GW will fix the lictors or the pyrovore? i do believe that they will fix Mawloc but i also feel they the problems with these other two and what makes me sick is that they are ELITES come on GW that word word means those units are supose to be better than the rest. Also from another thread the Mawloc should have swallow hole for the fluff talk about Red Terror being a Mawloc.:D

Pete_x
06-05-2010, 11:01
FAQ aren't there to change the rules. Only to fix them. Don't hold your breath for a revamp of those unit until the next codex

incarna
06-05-2010, 12:51
There’s nothing confusing or unclear about the Lictor Rules. A FAQ won’t change them and they are at or near the bottom of a very long list of codex releases. Get used to the current incarnation of the Lictor, he’s here to stay for the next few years.

GrogDaTyrant
06-05-2010, 14:29
Yup, I agree with what's been said. They're not going to change anytime soon. If you want some good examples, look at the Ork Zzap Gun, Chaos Dread, or Chaos Possessed, to name just a few. Each of those are downright awful for one reason or another, and nothing's been done to improve them.

scopedog91
07-05-2010, 00:56
yes we does

Vepr
07-05-2010, 01:36
I would not be shocked for some sort of errata on the pyrovore but I doubt we see anything on the lictor other than maybe saying it does or does not stack with the tyrant ability.

It is funny that they mentioned it as a goal to fix the lictor this edition. Talk about failing at a stated goal... :( About the best thing they could do for them right now is maybe bump them to fast attack or something so people might consider using them. They are lackluster as can be but taking up an elite slot is the real nail in the coffin for them.

ehlijen
07-05-2010, 02:23
Elites, in the sense of the FO chart, means that they are better at something specific. Usually that comes at signigicant cost in other areas to serve as an explanation as to why they are not troops.

So lictors are better than the troops: at sneaking. That makes them specialists and thus elites.

And just what is wrong with lictors again? I see a decent close combat unit that can magically appear exactly where you want it without scatter or getting shot up on the way in. You face one turn of shooting, at best, in exactly the position and cover you want. That is worth a lot of points. They even have a shooting attack now. Lurking is a problem, but a ld or fast synapse can ease that pain.

Compare them to marbo: same cost, not unique, rending and a lot tougher. Sure they hit less hard one for one, but they're also harder to kill.

daboarder
07-05-2010, 02:29
problem with lictors is that rules wise they are no longer lictors

ehlijen
07-05-2010, 02:32
How so?

The entry calls them lictors. They have by far the best sneaky deployment rule in the entire game. They excel at taking out support units and directing the rest of the tyranid forces into good positions. How are they not lictors?

Dwane Diblie
07-05-2010, 02:48
People are just grumpy that they can not charge after being revealed which is something they have always done up until now. I do not play nids but I play against nids often enough to nolonger fear lictors at all. So I agree that they nolonger any good but I also do not see it changing untill next rewrite.

Project2501
07-05-2010, 02:53
yes we does

Absolute win right there ^ :D

@ the OP: What you are asking for is either a codex revision or a new codex. As previously covered in a few other threads a FAQ will only clarify (hopefully) ambiguos language/rules.

If you're this unhappy about them though, why not concentrate on using them more often to be absolutely sure that they are not for you and move on?
I occasionally force myself to proxy units that I do not/would not normally use for the same reason and as such I now love ogryn and skyclaws.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
07-05-2010, 04:19
It is funny that they mentioned it as a goal to fix the lictor this edition. Talk about failing at a stated goal...

Oh man no kidding. Most of the complaints about the tyranid dex are overblown (IMHO, of course) but the poor lictor has slowly been worn away from it's former glory since second edition. At this point the unit is absolutely terrible, it fills no niche in the army, and completely fails to act the way it should: as an assassin that hunts special characters and heavy weapons off on their own. Lictors should be a 0-1 choice, one lictor (none of this squad nonsense!), and be absolutely terrifying.

The Deathleaper looks like a minor step in the right direction, but it needs to be dialed up a notch or three still and become the only "Lictor" option in the list.


Elites, in the sense of the FO chart, means that they are better at something specific. Usually that comes at signigicant cost in other areas to serve as an explanation as to why they are not troops.

So lictors are better than the troops: at sneaking. That makes them specialists and thus elites.

And just what is wrong with lictors again? I see a decent close combat unit that can magically appear exactly where you want it without scatter or getting shot up on the way in. You face one turn of shooting, at best, in exactly the position and cover you want. That is worth a lot of points. They even have a shooting attack now. Lurking is a problem, but a ld or fast synapse can ease that pain.

Compare them to marbo: same cost, not unique, rending and a lot tougher. Sure they hit less hard one for one, but they're also harder to kill.

In my opinion part of the issue is that from a thematic (yes, yes, I know) standpoint the lictors have lost much of the magic they once had. Also Marbo gets the demolition charge when he shows up, that counts for quite a bit.

If lictors could even assault when they came onto the board, it would really help make them more appealing.

Maskedman5oh4
07-05-2010, 04:23
How so?

They excel at taking out support units and directing the rest of the tyranid forces into good positions. How are they not lictors?

That is laughable.

They must be around for a full turn for pheremone trail to work.

Upon appearing they can not move, let alone assault.


It is like, "hey, here I am, shoot at me!"
The Lictor is my favorite Tyranid concept and I will not field one until it can assault the turn it arrives.

EDIT:

The Deathleaper is a different monster altogether. He can 'hit and run' - reploying to another side of the table, nightsight rules add to his survivability and the kicker is hampering an enemy character leadership; this ability overlaps with alot of other Tyranid's abilities- Shadow in the Warp etc.

Scythe
07-05-2010, 06:24
Elites, in the sense of the FO chart, means that they are better at something specific. Usually that comes at signigicant cost in other areas to serve as an explanation as to why they are not troops.

So lictors are better than the troops: at sneaking. That makes them specialists and thus elites.

And just what is wrong with lictors again? I see a decent close combat unit that can magically appear exactly where you want it without scatter or getting shot up on the way in. You face one turn of shooting, at best, in exactly the position and cover you want. That is worth a lot of points. They even have a shooting attack now. Lurking is a problem, but a ld or fast synapse can ease that pain.

Compare them to marbo: same cost, not unique, rending and a lot tougher. Sure they hit less hard one for one, but they're also harder to kill.

Harder to kill doesn't matter much when you still die to a single powerfist in the face. Besides that, once marbo has dropped his demo charge (which is certain he can do, always), he has already achieved his primary objective. A Lictor, wether you intend to use him in an assault, or to support your reserves, has to survive a turn to achieve anything. It might sound like minor things, but in practice, it makes the unit completely unusable. His reserve rules sound ok until you realize that you won't get the +1 as long as the Lictor is off table when the turn starts (which, I should mention, he is forced to be. You cannot simply infiltrate him. He MUST start in reserves), and that his deep strike guidance only works if he is on the table at the start of the turn. In practice he won't be affecting 90% of your reserves...

To fix the Lictor, some combination of the below is needed:
- Allow the Lictor to deploy as an infiltrator instead of his special deployment rule
- Make the 'no scatter deep strike' rule work on the turn the Lictor arrives from reserves
- The +1 to reserves roll should work even if the Lictor is not on the table
- Allow the Lictor to assault after using his special deployment, but only if he was placed in / assaults from cover.

Even then, turning the venom cannon in assault 2 instead of assault 1 blast is still probably needed to take some of the anti-tank pressure away from the elites section to make other elites more viable.

RyVin
07-05-2010, 10:54
Okay first Project2501 I don't think a rewrite would be needed GW would just have to say SORRY TYPE-O what I mean is Lictors can assault the turn insteaded of cannot or pyrovore acid spray is really something more like S7 AP3 just an example. These two things could easyly be done in an FAQ and would make these units much more desirable. Oh and I have been playing since 3rd edition as a tyranid I own 4 lictors also 1 Red Terror. I would still like the tyranids to come out with a IC-HUNTER which is what i thought the lictor was and filled that role very will in 3rd. Also Scythe I liked your ideals as well they would go along way to fixing a badly hurting unit. PLUS one last thing i thought nids evovledover time not the other way around.Thank You:)

Project2501
07-05-2010, 11:15
Okay first Project2501 I don't think a rewrite would be needed GW would just have to say SORRY TYPE-O what I mean is Lictors can assault the turn insteaded of cannot or pyrovore acid spray is really something more like S7 AP3 just an example. These two things could easyly be done in an FAQ and would make these units much more desirable. Oh and I have been playing since 3rd edition as a tyranid I own 4 lictors also 1 Red Terror. I would still like the tyranids to come out with a IC-HUNTER which is what i thought the lictor was and filled that role very will in 3rd. Also Scythe I liked your ideals as well they would go along way to fixing a badly hurting unit. PLUS one last thing i thought nids evovledover time not the other way around.Thank You:)

Well, seeing as how the only information I have to go off of is your join date, post count, spelling/grammar, and what a FAQ actually is, I apologize if I offended you, but continue to stand behind my position of pray for an errata/revision/new codex.

ehlijen
07-05-2010, 11:19
The problem is that the thing everyone wants the lictor to do has no place in the middle of a major battle. We all want him to have powers like Predator, but Predator had the good sense never to show his face when a reinforced company of troops was around.

Lictors are good. They don't need to move on arrival (you get to put them where you want, so why move further?), they get S6 shots which are nice against vehicles backs (and often sides), and are good enough in combat to take on any support unit. They dont' need to do more. If they did more, they wouldn't be forward scouts, they'd be the mainstay of the army.

And yes, marbo gets a demo charge. Ie he gets the most inaccurate weapon in the game and a chance to kill himself, after which he's dropped in value by 3 or 4 times. Lictors don't have one shot gimmicks, you need to kill them to stop their threat. And if the enemy throws enough firepower at you to do that, they've not used that firepower on something else.

Remember: you control where the lictor goes. If he ends up being the only viable target for some heavy duty weapon, it was the wrong spot. If he ends up being targetted despite worse threats being around, it's a net win for the nids.

The nids have IC hunters: anything with boneswords, preferrably MC sized.

RyVin
07-05-2010, 11:19
Okay not to get anyone really upset but I can also see DOOM being able to use it's power on troops inside a tank or even cover by sencing them just like it did to the Eldar in the Warpgate in the fluff;)

Mindshred
07-05-2010, 11:37
Lictors are good. They don't need to move on arrival (you get to put them where you want, so why move further?), they get S6 shots which are nice against vehicles backs (and often sides), and are good enough in combat to take on any support unit. They dont' need to do more. If they did more, they wouldn't be forward scouts, they'd be the mainstay of the army.

Two 6" S6 shots at BS 3 isn't worth 65 points, especially when you can get two 24" S8 shots at BS 4 that (mostly) ignore cover, don't require LOS, and come on top of T6 models for 15 points cheaper.

If the Lictors had a better armor save, they might be able to survive past the turn they show up. As is, they usually just appear, throw a rock at a unit in crazy-close range, and then get shot to pieces. Granted, if they live a turn and get into combat, they do alright for themselves, but that's usually not the case.

If they could charge they turn they arrived like Ymgarl 'stealers, they'd be great. If they could just infiltrate normally, they'd be good. If their pheromone trail worked from the turn they deployed, or even from the start of the game, they'd at least be alright.

As written, however, they're just not that great of a unit, especially when compared to the other options available in the Elite slot.

Project2501
07-05-2010, 11:55
Two 6" S6 shots at BS 3 isn't worth 65 points, especially when you can get two 24" S8 shots at BS 4 that (mostly) ignore cover, don't require LOS, and come on top of T6 models for 15 points cheaper.

If the Lictors had a better armor save, they might be able to survive past the turn they show up. As is, they usually just appear, throw a rock at a unit in crazy-close range, and then get shot to pieces. Granted, if they live a turn and get into combat, they do alright for themselves, but that's usually not the case.

If they could charge they turn they arrived like Ymgarl 'stealers, they'd be great. If they could just infiltrate normally, they'd be good. If their pheromone trail worked from the turn they deployed, or even from the start of the game, they'd at least be alright.

As written, however, they're just not that great of a unit, especially when compared to the other options available in the Elite slot.


Lictors get a better armor save via cover, which is plentifull in this edition, which they get via placement due to their deployment.

Lictors aren't going to ge better shooting unless they lose CC ability at the vary least.

If you place your lictor somewhere where it can be assaulted when it arrives, this is your fault not the lictors.

If the lictor could just have the infiltrate USR it could suffer from the previously mentioned problems.

Sorry it's been changed and that it's no longer a no-brainer appearouttanowhereandinstagibanythingninja but that's the way it is, adapt your tactics accordingly or use something else.

Scythe
07-05-2010, 11:58
The problem is that the thing everyone wants the lictor to do has no place in the middle of a major battle. We all want him to have powers like Predator, but Predator had the good sense never to show his face when a reinforced company of troops was around.

I don't. I want a Lictor who helps my reserves; eg helps my troops by providing intel. The current incantation of the Lictor cannot achieve that, due to its reserve boosting powers being extremely poorly written and conflict with its other special rules.


Lictors are good. They don't need to move on arrival (you get to put them where you want, so why move further?),

Actually, I don't get them where I want. I want them in combat, or against a vehicle. I could live with that, if their buffing powers for the rest of the army were decent, which they, unfortunately, are not.


they get S6 shots which are nice against vehicles backs (and often sides)

Sadly they have no AP. Still, it is just strange that a Lictor should be shooting a target to death...


and are good enough in combat to take on any support unit. They dont' need to do more. If they did more, they wouldn't be forward scouts, they'd be the mainstay of the army.

I don't have any problems with the Lictors combat profile. However, they don't fit the roll of foreward scouts neither, as their abilities to function as such are restricted. I cannot even deploy them like conventional foreward scouts (infiltrators). Lictors are at the point were their chameleonic deployment rule actually harms several of their other abilites. This should never be the intention of that rule.


And yes, marbo gets a demo charge. Ie he gets the most inaccurate weapon in the game and a chance to kill himself,

It is not any less accurate than any other BS5 ordnance weapon, which are pretty rare to begin with.


you need to kill them to stop their threat. And if the enemy throws enough firepower at you to do that, they've not used that firepower on something else.

A pretty minor threat. Which is ok, if they had other abilites to make up for that.


Remember: you control where the lictor goes. If he ends up being the only viable target for some heavy duty weapon, it was the wrong spot. If he ends up being targetted despite worse threats being around, it's a net win for the nids.

Is it? I have tons of units already which create target priority problems for my opponent. Point is, 2 Hive Guard or a Zoanthrope create exactly the same target priority problem for my opponent, but have the advantage of also being a really dangerous unit to almost anythning on the field, unlike the Lictor. A Venomthrope, despite being terribly vulnerable, actually gives the units around it some very dangerous upgrades. Point is: why get a Lictor, when you could just get more of those units which are actually 'worse threats'?

Again, I don't want a combat monster Lictor, or a shooting monster Lictor. We have enough of those. I want a usable Lictor, which actually supports my units and helps my overall battleplan.

BaronDG
07-05-2010, 12:00
Our first (and so far only) game with tyranids, the lictor took out a leman russ by shooting! How can that be considered bad?

RyVin
07-05-2010, 12:01
Okay to everyone first I have always been and always will be a bad speller this is do to the fact I suffer from a handicap that sometimes mix words up on me. Second I will be 52 sometime this year and I am already starting to suffer some menory lost much like my mom did at this age.Third I am retired U.S. NAVY stationed at N.A.S. Lemoore Ca. Now back on subject. I just was triing to say how hard would it be to correct these two creatures but mostly the pyrovore cause i like the model but with bad stats i can't see my sdelf getting more than one, I use it as my T-FEX'S now but if given better stats i would by a whole brood. This is cause i like the mdoel thats also why i buy the models i like too build and paint models and nids give me the best range to do this with. then as an added bonus i get to display my work by putting them on the table and have an opponent look at them while i attack with them. My nids arenot paint as any in the codex os I like them even more but that is for a different day.Lastly Project2501 you didnot offend me SORRY if I came off that way please feel free to speak your mind i am a strong believer in that right thats on reason i like this site most people do just that with little fear fo being edited:)

Scythe
07-05-2010, 12:05
If the lictor could just have the infiltrate USR it could suffer from the previously mentioned problems.

But they would be my problems. I can work around the vulnerabilities of the Lictor when it rewards me with accurate deep striking and a consistent reserves bonus from turn 2 on. But I don't even have the choice.


Our first (and so far only) game with tyranids, the lictor took out a leman russ by shooting! How can that be considered bad?

A Chaos spawm can kill a Trygon if it gets lucky. Doesn't mean it is not one of the worst units in the game.

genestealer_baldric
07-05-2010, 12:22
the lictors shouldnt be in broods and they should all be almost as good as the deathleader is currentley and he should be even better. it should be able to pick its target in combat like an assassin then easily slip away again all the time its alive giving bonus to reserves even if its on the board or not.

pyrovore should never of exsited or possible could be a unit that you could attach to squad of gaunts as an upgrade etc.. and only cost about 20pts then they MIGHT of been worth it

Scythe
07-05-2010, 12:28
The idea behind the Pyrovore is good. In theory, they also add a valuable ability to a Tyranid army (dealing with opponents in cover, which became more difficult since the general loss of flesh hooks on basic units). Their main problem is that vehicles are still a bigger problem for Tyranids as units in cover, and that the two excellent anti-vehicle units the Tyranids have are both in elites as well. Like I said before, turn the venom cannon in a 2 shot weapon without blasts (along with some minor changes to the units in elite), and Tyranid elites section will look a lot more varied .

RyVin
07-05-2010, 12:40
WOW BaronDG that had to be luk for that lictor to take out a tank. but i still have to agree with Scythe i want my lictor to be able to charge the turn it comes into play plus if it was suppose to fill the role of an advance scuot then why not make it bale to do this at the start of the game by making it vanish then if theplayer wants it to but this would cause a rewrite of the codex but maybe that to is possible after all that has been done in the past.

Lord Malorne
07-05-2010, 12:54
yes we does

I agree with this statement.

Fixer
07-05-2010, 13:04
I've been working on my own Tyranids Fix-dex.

Lictor rules changed somwhat:
Pheramones allow you to reroll one reserve roll, no more +1. Effective from the turn they arrive on the table.
May assault the turn they arrive.
Deployment changed. Deep strike as normal, but if they suffer a mishap they are not removed from the table and instead scatter the minimum safe distance and may not act until the beginning of the next Tyranid player turn.
Lithe: Lictors are extremely agile and difficult to pin down. Any Initiative 1 attacks made against them require a 6 to hit regardless of any other bonuses or modifiers (such as preferred enemy).

Pyrovore:
Flamespurt now works like the Hellhound flamethrower. Points fixed.

Mindshred
07-05-2010, 13:08
Lictors get a better armor save via cover, which is plentifull in this edition, which they get via placement due to their deployment.

If you place your lictor somewhere where it can be assaulted when it arrives, this is your fault not the lictors.

Which limits its targets down to things that are sitting within 6" of terrain, all for two shots with an AP - weapon.



Lictors aren't going to ge better shooting unless they lose CC ability at the vary least.

If the lictor could just have the infiltrate USR it could suffer from the previously mentioned problems.

They could keep their terrible shooting if they could at least charge out into combat when they enter play like Ymgarl 'stealers. Having to be in play for an entire turn before they begin to contribute to your army is just too much of a restriction for a 65 point Elite choice.



Sorry it's been changed and that it's no longer a no-brainer appearouttanowhereandinstagibanythingninja but that's the way it is, adapt your tactics accordingly or use something else.

I never played with or against Lictors using the previous rules, so there's no nostalgia or hurt feelings to be conjured up when I read the Lictor's stats; it's just an all-around poor choice.

My tactics take that into account - I just don't use the things. :P


Still, I'd rather they were a worthwhile choice, because having subpar units in a codex always sucks (see: WoC Forsaken).

RyVin
07-05-2010, 13:15
How does the Hellhound flamthrower work I never fought against IG. Mostly SW,SM, Eldars, Orks. What S did you give it. I was also thinking fo making this model into a bio-vore prime with barrage 3 for apoc games with a S6 AP3 mine an BS4 don't know how well that will be recieved though.

Scythe
07-05-2010, 13:24
How does the Hellhound flamthrower work I never fought against IG.

Basically a flamer with range. You deploy the flamer template with the short end up to 12" away from the tank, the long end pointing directly away from the hellhound.


I agree with this statement.

Quiet you! :p

Fixer
07-05-2010, 13:25
How does the Hellhound flamthrower work I never fought against IG.

It's a template you can place a distance from the tank rather than placing it in base contact with the model.

Would be quite good for a Pyrovore, allowing you to fire over screening gaunts.

RyVin
07-05-2010, 13:37
Oh thats sound nice for a second there i thouht it mgiht have been that long green flame templte

MasterDecoy
07-05-2010, 15:16
The exact same arguments used the last time I was defending the lictor, seriously guys, get some imagination, the lictor only sucks, because you WANT it to suck.

Deon
07-05-2010, 16:26
I want a usable Lictor, which actually supports my units and helps my overall battleplan.

same here, the lictor in not a lictor any more.
I can never understand why a lictor can shoot,
or why it can appear everywhere on the battelfield.
The thing they have created is a whole other monster, not a lictor.
the could at least make a new model for it :p and give it a new name
and let us use the old rules for the lictor,
those i could understand

Badger[Fr]
07-05-2010, 16:57
Lictors aren't as bad as most players make them to be, but they're slightly too expensive: were they 10 points cheaper and more reliable (the Pheromenon trail, as it is, is almost useless), they would be a far more common sight, I think.

Vaktathi
07-05-2010, 17:02
And yes, marbo gets a demo charge. Ie he gets the most inaccurate weapon in the game and a chance to kill himself, after which he's dropped in value by 3 or 4 times. By innaccurate you mean it's going to land on target the vast majority of the time?

At BS5 it's going to land directly on a little over 50% of the time. With scatter of 6, 7, or 8 inches, it's still going to hit the model that was originally targeted, so about 85% of the time it'll hit the model you aimed for at least.

I'd call that far more accurate than the vast majority of weapons, that's very nearly on par with straight BS5.

RyVin
07-05-2010, 17:23
Alright I see a few people think like I do, but my major point is has somebody forgot that nid learn and supposely get better from thier mistakes not the other way around. The lictor is the model that got me to go nids and the poor thing keeps getting worst every codex if you don't believe me read the 3rd,4th,5th then decieded. I am happy I have a deathleaper. Oh and for my IC-HUNTER I now use a BS/LW ST Flyerant he also works very well against tanks all tought SM still give him some troubles. Oh well and a T-FEX's with rupper cannon works well in a city since it cna move around streets faster than a tank

AFnord
07-05-2010, 17:27
Our first (and so far only) game with tyranids, the lictor took out a leman russ by shooting! How can that be considered bad?
I once had a grot who survived two turns against a khorne berzerker, so who says that grots are squishy? My point is that sometimes you get lucky, and something rather unlikely happens, but most of the time this won't be the case. Most of the time lictors won't be able to destroy russes when they arrive.

My problems with the lictor is that it really does not fill any decent role. Its special rules would have been good, if they always worked, or at least if you could roll for the lictor and place it on the table before any other reserves, and any reserves could use the lictors special rules if it arrived.
Its shooting is lackluster, but lictors were never meant to be great shooting units. Its close combat abilites are also rather lackluster, and while you would not expect a lictor to be able to go toe to toe with an ork nob mob, you would expect it to do well against something a bit more competent in close combat than an IG heavy weapon squad (actually, it would be rather brutal against IG heavy weapon squads, as it can instant kill them). If it could target individual models in a squad, and it had hit & run, you would at least be able to use it as an assassin.

Balerion
07-05-2010, 17:59
There's at least one way they could improve Lictors via an errata; change "always" to "may" in the Chameleonic Skin rule. Then your Lictor could deploy with the rest of the swarm, and his reserve bonus would actually become a functional rule.

They could take it a step further and add the Infiltrate USR to the Lictor's profile, but that verges on changing the rules (even though they could be like, "Misprint! Bobby Crudd forgot to add the word!").

Neither of those things will happen, though. Lictors are just f-ed for another edition. Next codex they'll release Lictor plastics, and the unit will become one of the best no-brainer choices in the book.


I've been working on my own Tyranids Fix-dex.

<snip>
Deployment changed. Deep strike as normal, but if they suffer a mishap they are not removed from the table and instead scatter the minimum safe distance and may not act until the beginning of the next Tyranid player turn.
<snip>

I like this. Although I would change it to mishap = goes back into reserve. It's a good representation of the Lictor biding his time to strike when the odds are in his favour.



Lithe: Lictors are extremely agile and difficult to pin down. Any Initiative 1 attacks made against them require a 6 to hit regardless of any other bonuses or modifiers (such as preferred enemy).

I really don't like this, though. Seems like a pretty cheesy, one-dimensional rule to save the Lictor's butt from powerfists.