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Roarschach
06-05-2010, 13:58
So, I've been hearing a lot about the 25% hero cap for 8th, and I'm wondering how much it will affect hero setups for skaven. I'm thinking that in 2000-2250, a screaming bell or furnace will take almost the entire hero %, so how will it be viable at all to use those setups if we will lose out a ton on magic and the ability to use a bsb? I've seen setups with a kitted out warlord and two engineers that would work, but if I wanted to use a furnace I know that it would be impossible to field a grey seer and a stormbanner bsb with it, which is a staple setup in this edition. I know that the 25% seriously cuts down on daemon and vc cheese, but it's getting me worried about the future of skaven armies, and to an extent even lizardmen, who might not be able to field any hero other than their slann due to how much they cost.


I'm just wondering what you guys think would be good setups for skaven heroes assuming this change takes place. Ideas for other armies are welcome too, as I'm sure that skaven aren't the only army that will have problems with this limitation. Thanks.

w3rm
07-05-2010, 02:02
Even now I take 25% Characters and I am going to stop using my seer.

I plan to take

Warlord-131
Heavy Armour, XHW, Poisoned attacks, Tail Weapon, Rival Hide Talisman

Warlock Engineer-130
Lvl 2, Doomrocket

Plague Priest- 189
Lvl 2, 2 Scrolls

Cheiftain- 79
BSB, Great Weapon

Comes out to 529 so its perfect for 2250 games. Anything less I can drop the Tail Weapon and a Scroll

Roarschach
07-05-2010, 04:00
Never seen priest run without furnace before, wonder how it does. Can you run priest in clanrats by the way? I don't like monks too much so I'm just wondering.

Dantès
07-05-2010, 04:05
I always run mine on foot, either within PCB or with Clanraits. With a flail they're deadly in CC, and tough enough to take some punishment.

Roarschach
07-05-2010, 13:16
With pcb? I'd think they would be killed by gas tests, or would be shot to death because of how powerful a unit of pcb and priest w/ flail would be. Running em with clanrats will prolly be what I do. Maybe it'll be a little more fun with the cap, because we will have to be a lot more creative to fit the heroes into the % instead of just maxing the hell out of everything. I think we'll see more a-bomb lists once 8th comes out though, which won't be good.

Galatan
07-05-2010, 14:01
With pcb? I'd think they would be killed by gas tests, or would be shot to death because of how powerful a unit of pcb and priest w/ flail would be. Running em with clanrats will prolly be what I do. Maybe it'll be a little more fun with the cap, because we will have to be a lot more creative to fit the heroes into the % instead of just maxing the hell out of everything. I think we'll see more a-bomb lists once 8th comes out though, which won't be good.

You'd be surprised how easy and flexable they can be thnx to the skirmishers rule.

But I also think that the with 8th the most expensive contraption you'll see on the table will be a plague furnance. With the whole cap and all I'll just stick to the good old warlord on a warlitter/bonebreaker and leave the magic to clan skyre and pestilance. Just keep it cheap and keep it numerous for that is the skaven way :) .

Roarschach
07-05-2010, 14:28
But that's just the problem, we'll hardly ever see furnaces or bells any more because of this restriction, and that's not cool. It just won't be competitive, or even fun, At All, to only have one hero. It's not like the difference between having a hero on a dragon or on foot, because we're losing two unique choices that only skaven can take to this rule. But then again I guess fewer dragons means fewer flame templates to kill my massed skaven with :). What would be nice is an either/or rule. Either the set number of heroes with no % limit, or as many as you want under 25%. That would probably be balanced, actually. Armies that don't have super powered casters can just take lots of minimally equipped casters with scrolls, or small heroes for each unit they have. Idk just a thought.

Galatan
07-05-2010, 15:37
Well look at it this way, because of the restriction everybody will hold a little more back when bringing out the big stuff in the character section (like you said, less dragons which is a good thing :) ). In the end we'll probably see 3 types of army's in terms of selecting characters:
1. Go big and take a uber character. Like a dragon or a screaming bell (although you'll still be able to take a chieftain or warlock if you keep it cheap).
2. 2 or 3 characters who aren't all powerful, but still have a decent amount of pts invested in them. I was thinking something like a warlord and a furnance (you can take both a still have points to spare for magic items).
3. Keep it all basic and go numerous (something I think skaven and empire will do alot).

To be honest I like it. IMO it will give a good balance. I'll probably go for 2 or 3 most of the time, but I can easily see how a dragon will become even better if there are less fully kitted characters running around. It will require a lot more thought in the end.

BTW in my area the furnance is a pretty popular choice. Screaming bell a little less, but it has it's place.

Dantès
07-05-2010, 15:38
But that's just the problem, we'll hardly ever see furnaces or bells any more because of this restriction, and that's not cool. It just won't be competitive, or even fun, At All, to only have one hero. It's not like the difference between having a hero on a dragon or on foot, because we're losing two unique choices that only skaven can take to this rule. But then again I guess fewer dragons means fewer flame templates to kill my massed skaven with :). What would be nice is an either/or rule. Either the set number of heroes with no % limit, or as many as you want under 25%. That would probably be balanced, actually. Armies that don't have super powered casters can just take lots of minimally equipped casters with scrolls, or small heroes for each unit they have. Idk just a thought.

In a 2k army you can take a Plague Priest on Furnace with Flail and ShadowMagnet Trinket for 286 (iirc...don't have the book with me) and you can fit in a level 2 Plague Priest with Flail, and a BSB. What's the problem?

My 2k army will be looking more like:

2 lvl 2 warlocks, one with doomrocket and condenser, the other with a powerstone and maybe shadow magnet trinket, with a bsb and a warlord on bonebreaker. Though, I DO want a Bell, however. But really, I could just take a Seer, and the 2 warlocks I just mentioned.

AHH, so many decisions! Skaven are a lot better off than most armies, but I think we'll have a harder time choosing, since we have many more options and no clear cut 'If you don't take that, you lose' heroes. We just won't be able to take everything AND the kitchen sink, unfortunately the kitchen sink will have to stay in the carrying case until 3k.

w3rm
07-05-2010, 15:45
But that's just the problem, we'll hardly ever see furnaces or bells any more because of this restriction, and that's not cool. It just won't be competitive, or even fun, At All, to only have one hero. It's not like the difference between having a hero on a dragon or on foot, because we're losing two unique choices that only skaven can take to this rule. But then again I guess fewer dragons means fewer flame templates to kill my massed skaven with :). What would be nice is an either/or rule. Either the set number of heroes with no % limit, or as many as you want under 25%. That would probably be balanced, actually. Armies that don't have super powered casters can just take lots of minimally equipped casters with scrolls, or small heroes for each unit they have. Idk just a thought.

Huh? I have loads of fun without taking one hit win buttons like the HPA and Furnace and Bell. Try a game with more infantry then magic and giant uber units. You'll have a lot more fun trust me.

fantasypisces
07-05-2010, 23:34
At 2250 I would have:
Warlord on warlitter with enchanted shield, Warlock Augmented Weapon (or warpforged blade depending on how they change armor saves), foul pendant, heavy armor,
Chieften BSB with heavy armor, shield, Storm Banner.
Lvl 1 Warlock Engineer with doomrocket and warp-energy condensor.
Lvl 1 Warlock Engineer with 2x dispell scroll.

That comes to 562 points which is exactly 25% of 2250.

At 3000 (if that does become the standard sized game) I would have:
Warlord same as above except instead of warlitter he is on a bonebreaker.
Lvl 1 Plague Priest on furnace with shadow magnet trinket
BSB drops storm banner for warpstone armor (banner would just be given to plague monks)
Lvl 1 Warlock Engineer with 2x dispell scroll.

Lately I have lost interest in a Grey Seer, maybe it's because I play so many armies that are either: also magic heavy, or have a lot of magic defense (or I roll bad and never get spells off), but also based upon current rumors magic is getting nerfed in 8th, so I think the warlord will be a bit more reliable.

shinankoku
08-05-2010, 01:07
If the rumors are right, I'm going to bring my lord level fighter and maybe an engineer dispell caddy or cheap chieftan bsb. Think about it, lots of nice large blocks, stubborn because they have a zillion ranks, testing off the lords ld.

Hmm ... although, now that I think about it, that may not work. Depends on whether they change the rule about stubborn troops testing off of non-stubborn generals ...

Ok, cheap engineer becomes my general. Bsb comes along tooled up. Again, this is assuming rank bonuses better than your opponents give you stubborn. Drop lord altogether, take more rats! I've had a lot of good results with the horde concept, characters just take up points.

fantasypisces
08-05-2010, 04:04
Yeah, a lot of people at my LGS were complaining how skaven would get so good under horde rules because of stubborn. I just said "yeah, stubborn five". They said good point and walked away, haha.

So it depends on how it will work.

therat
08-05-2010, 06:10
The rumor about ASF + higher I getting to re-roll failed hits might make an assassin worth taking. Against most characters he would be getting the re-roll, throw a weeping blade in the mix and he could do some damage.

fantasypisces
08-05-2010, 13:36
The rumor about ASF + higher I getting to re-roll failed hits might make an assassin worth taking. Against most characters he would be getting the re-roll, throw a weeping blade in the mix and he could do some damage.

They would certainly be more useful, but I dunno. As expensive as they are, and still taking a hero slot, I can just never justify taking one over another character.

crouchingotter
08-05-2010, 19:49
Look. The restriction in characters at 2000pts does not mean that your normal sized games of warhammer will be 2000pts. Think bigger.

Roarschach
08-05-2010, 21:07
Huh? I have loads of fun without taking one hit win buttons like the HPA and Furnace and Bell. Try a game with more infantry then magic and giant uber units. You'll have a lot more fun trust me.

You're getting me wrong here. I'm trying to say that it won't be possible to field a screaming bell with more than 1 cheap hero at 2k, which is the points that everyone I know plays at. I don't think it's very fun to only have two heroes in your entire army, and it would also be awful in play. My friends aren't cheesy, but like to use semi competitive lists, so having a super fluffy list doesn't make for too good of a time around here. That's all, not saying I only enjoy cheese and beardy in any way, I'm just stating that this restriction almost fully takes away a few options from an army I would field. And what I said about HPA's was not a compliment, I'd never field one of those cheddar-filled monstrosities.

w3rm
09-05-2010, 02:00
Ok sorry If I took that the wrong way man.

scarvet
09-05-2010, 02:01
Yeah, my current army have only 25% in hero+lord.
2 Plague Priest, 1 Warlord/Engineer, depending on how mean I want to be :)

I would advice people to start practicing no-bell/furnace list ;)

Roarschach
10-05-2010, 01:30
Yeah, my current army have only 25% in hero+lord.
2 Plague Priest, 1 Warlord/Engineer, depending on how mean I want to be :)

I would advice people to start practicing no-bell/furnace list ;)

Yep, get ready everyone.


Ok sorry If I took that the wrong way man.

Don't worry about it.



Some time I'm going to have to try skitterleaping a fellblade warlord. Does that work btw? There would be no escape.

w3rm
10-05-2010, 02:10
Well they have 1 turn to shoot and magic it or get away. I think the most reliable way is on a Bonebreaker in a unit of Giant rats. Faster then on foot and more reliable.

Roarschach
10-05-2010, 12:53
Well timed stormbanner, warpgale and shadow trinket could make him survive, as well as a ward save. That would be about -4 to shooting with warpgale, -3 just banner and trinket, I think he'd live, not to mention the fact that some of their magic/shooting would not have line of sight to shoot at him. But I might be wrong I've just never tried it, mostly b/c I've been playing a lot of 40k recently. Well there's always an assassin right? That would be one hell of a warmachine/mage hunter. Sort of like that darkelf strategy with their assassins and steed of shadows. That strat works for elves works, and despite our assassins being more costly, we have better means of positioning ours, so it might be worth it, though on second thought we have gutter runners for those duties, don't we. Just an idea I guess.

w3rm
10-05-2010, 17:11
Shadow trinket he cannot take with a Fellblade. And there's stil plenty of magic that can take out a t4 3w 4+ armour save charachter in a single turn.

An assassin the best bet is either

Assassin with Warpstone stars
or with tail weapon
Or with blade of corruption

Roarschach
11-05-2010, 05:15
Well that was a stupid about the trinket. I just like the idea of using skitterleap in general, one of the coolest spells in warhammer.

CauCaSus
11-05-2010, 14:15
Not to mention Skitterleap just got better because (if rumours are true), we can charge after using Skitterleap.

Assassins just got better! Skitterleap an assassin with weeping blade infront of an enemy mage, charge in, kill him and use smoke bombs to get away! Not to mention warmachines, light cav, etc.

Though Skitterleap might be nerfed

VVV Apparently, GW will release an errata/quick-fix for all armies in 8th ed

Roarschach
11-05-2010, 15:03
How would GW go about nerfing skitterleap if they don't release a new army book?

w3rm
12-05-2010, 17:09
I like the idea of an assassin with tail blade and smoke bombs in a unit of gutter runners who rear charge a unit with hatred. Then after they do a crap load of kills but still loose they just run flee and pull the enemy unit out of the battle.

Roarschach
12-05-2010, 20:34
I like the idea of an assassin with tail blade and smoke bombs in a unit of gutter runners who rear charge a unit with hatred. Then after they do a crap load of kills but still loose they just run flee and pull the enemy unit out of the battle.

That actually sounds crazy enough to try. Might not work if you use it every game against regular opponents, but would be cool trick to pull once in a while.

w3rm
12-05-2010, 22:46
Hell rear charge a bunch of DE spearmen and you can dish out some pain. Then when they lose and have to pursue your running 2d6+1 and they are only d6.

maze ironheart
13-05-2010, 10:45
I see it as If they do the % cap then GW sells of the screamingbell and such will plumet and lets face it their in it to make money like most greedy companys do so I'll wait for the book before going nuts over rules that might not even happen.

Roarschach
13-05-2010, 17:17
Hell rear charge a bunch of DE spearmen and you can dish out some pain. Then when they lose and have to pursue your running 2d6+1 and they are only d6.

And a 1/36 chance you'll be below their average pursue distance, only if you roll two 1's you'll be below 3.5. That sounds like a very good strategy for avoiding bad combats.

Hah, just thought of something funny. You could take big casters like a grey seer and maybe a lvl 1 warlock and a bsb if you used the other character slots on naked warlocks for 15 points. This could give you a 15 point model to skitterleap behind the enemies strong unit and hold it up for a turn. I forget, do units that are charged from behind get attacks back? All I know is that they would be expecting the warlock to have a doomrocket or be powerful enough actually achieve something by being in that position. It would draw dispel die or scrolls for obvious reasons. Then for 15 points, and 1 spell, you hold up a whole vampire deathstar, dragon, giant, or anything expensive for a turn. If you can get the lock to survive the encounter and either force a pursuit or hold them for another turn, it would be even more amazing.

This character supplies tricks for a grey seer to utilize, especially with the supposed 8th magic rules which, from what I read, depend on the casters level. And that means we can save points on heroes while supplying this trick. Either way, 15 points for distracting a unit for a turn is worth every point.

w3rm
13-05-2010, 19:59
Well they still get thier attacks. But a 15 point march blocker can be brilliant. But its not really something we need. Could be kind of a cool trick but i dont know.

Roarschach
13-05-2010, 20:20
Well they still get thier attacks. But a 15 point march blocker can be brilliant. But its not really something we need. Could be kind of a cool trick but i dont know.

Yea not just a march blocker, a rear charger. Does hatred force them to overrun too?

bert n ernie
14-05-2010, 08:23
Yeah, hatred would force them to follow, so it would be better against Dark Elf armies and so on.

I've been using the skitterleap trick already. Unfortunately people can get wise to it quickly, but it still usually forces your opponent to spend two dice that won't be spent on stopping your damage spells, so that helps.

I used to skitterleap my plague priest most often, but I have used other characters.
A plague priest with a flail and level 1 pestilent breath can be very annoying for opponents.
In one game he march blocked the Shaggoth special character(600pts), a dragon ogre unit(240) and a marauder cav unit(90ish) for two turns. They can really mess up an enemies plans.

One usual set used to be Seer on bell, warlock, priest and BSB. I don't mind dropping the bell. It's mostly cosmetic, and to help against certain enemies. If I drop one of those other characters or get rid of all extras I can keep the characters, which actually seems more balanced to me.
Then again half my games I take under 25% anyway.

There are problems with the skitterleap tactic though. One is that to guarantee it you need a grey seer, another is that if you try to build a character that will win combats (like the lord above) you're wasting far too many points on something that can easily be dispelled. The last problem is that if you get your magic phase before movement, so do they, so the 15pt warlock will be massacred by no LOS spells, unless you waste a lot of dice keeping him alive.

Roarschach
14-05-2010, 13:39
Naw, just put him out of LOS of their guns, and have them waste all their spells on him fine. He's just 15 points. And magic before movement means charging ^.^ You waste nothing on this lock other than 1-2 dice to get the spell off.

w3rm
14-05-2010, 17:12
And a hero slot. Honestly it will work once. Then theyll be wise to hit and just shoot 5 bow shots at him or something and kill him.

Roarschach
15-05-2010, 02:39
And a hero slot. Honestly it will work once. Then theyll be wise to hit and just shoot 5 bow shots at him or something and kill him.

Well, with the 25% cap, I won't be able to fit 4 full heroes if I take a grey seer, and 15 points makes itself back with mindgames.

bert n ernie
15-05-2010, 08:30
It depends. Some people are saying the 25% cap is combined with the current limits. If it wasn't I could put a warlock (and the occasional other character) in each of my units, which would be a bit unfair.
To make it especially annoying put some magic items on some of the warlocks so your regular opponents never know which guy has it (course you'll have to write it down at the start of every game).

I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of warlords in 8th ed though. I want to try one out (still haven't ) but don't know if a defencive or offensive build is best.

Von Wibble
15-05-2010, 17:56
Err...why is the plague furnace a no no?

At 2500 points, I have 625 for characters. A plague furnace about 250. Call it 400 with a warlock on top, leaving me 225 for a general. I think I could even squeeze in a cheap chieftain. Its not like the magic items are anything to write home about - I tend to go low points on characters with skaven. Alternatively no warlord and a BSB and chieftain/warlock instead.

I'm not claiming I'd do this every time, but its certainly a viable build.

The rule allowing only 1 of each spell if true hurts skaven though. Only 1 warlock able to use their base spell of warp lightning?

Btw, in answer to an earlier post, stubborn 5 with BSB has roughly a 48% chance of holding. Not great, but the enemy isn't going to be able to bank on breaking you at all. And that's assuming it is stubborn 5 - I thought SIN upped base LD and would therefore apply to stubborn, making it stubborn 8 instead.

Icarus
16-05-2010, 02:25
Even if SIN would apply, I'm not sure I see the benefits of a 10-wide Horde for Skaven, for the same reason you never make Skaven 6-wide now - it increases the number of attacks they will be expose to, to which they will die in droves because they are weedy rats. Ok you're stubborn and get more attacks, but you won't last long!

Von Wibble
16-05-2010, 16:42
You don't need 10 wide for stubborn though. Stubborn has nothing to do with the horde rule.

You just need more ranks than the enemy. The only time I'd go 10 wide is with a bell or furnace, where the unit is unbreakable so stubborn doesn't matter.

Roarschach
18-05-2010, 13:23
And there we go, bell and furnace become less accessible in 8th, so maybe this horde rule isn't too spammable.

I recently have read about magic in 8th, and have calculated a list to include a grey seer, possibly with one item, to increase my magic power over using a weaker setup of 2 warlocks. I think this could be very valid considering that it is rumored that different wizards cannot have the same spells as others, meaning two warlocks cannot go to their default warp lightning spell. This of course would be a major blow to skaven magic, because we only have 2 lores to choose from, and warplightning is an obvious choice for all our weak casters. But I doubt this will happen, and if it does, armies like skaven and ogre kingdoms who can only choose from certain lores will hopefully be exempt. Ogres will have to have it exempt actually, all their casters know all 6 spells in their only lore.
Either way, a gray seer adds his caster level to his casting attempts, and the free warptokens might prove useful because of only 2d6 casting die.

shadow hunter
19-05-2010, 16:04
If it really is 25% lords plus 25% hero's, then;

Vermin Lord
BSB with great weapon
Assassin with stars
Cheiftain

Is it the best? Naa probably not, but my opponent and me both take models/armies that look good mostly. And I think the Vermin Lord looks great. Helps that my opponent is a frenzy happy WoC player, so I dont have to worry about magic or shooting too.

lordmetroid
19-05-2010, 21:55
For a themed Pestillence army I would defintely bring the Furnance in a 2250. Who needs Lords anyway. The Furnance is much more preferable and I would still have plenty of points to spend on one or two more heroes.

I don't see 25% to be unjustifiably restricting. I actually like the idea.

Kukkelukke
20-05-2010, 13:01
Im going for a themed Pestilence/Moulder army..

However now with the 8th edition rumours, Im having second thoughts about including my Plague Furnace and Warlord on Bonebreaker. The problem is I started a really big conversion on my Plague furnace!

... Just me whinning :P

It seems a bit sad to me, that the Bell will be harder to field though. Its really cool, but not as competetive as other builds IMO..

Btw go check out my plog to see the furnace :P

bert n ernie
21-05-2010, 09:31
@shadow hunter, that sounds like a great fun lord and hero set up. I think I'll have to try it out. It could be more effective than you think too.

I don't see anything as more difficult to field except the Bell. The bell wasn't that worth it before, and was only useful if you had a good few characters to support (in my opinion).
I really like the paint job/conversion on my bell, but it's no big loss.
I think you can still fit a plague furnace, a warlord on bonebreaker and at least one other cheap character.

Kukkelukke
Keep in mind that you can get master moulders which are almost characters. If you take them in your army you won't need a bunch of chieftains to boost leadership.
This is especially true if your army really is Pestilence/Moulder then pestilence won't need a BSB until they get into combat, and Moulder will be going faster than the BSB.
Master Moulders can give Ld 9 on their unit. And of course Rat Ogres are frenzied too.

Bloodfever
17-02-2011, 02:06
Sorry if this has already been posted but where is this idea of the 25% char cap coming from. Just would like to read through the article if some one could post a link.

Kevlar
17-02-2011, 02:12
Warlord, halberd

x6

Chieftan, halberd

x13

Put them in front of a horde of 100 clanrats.

Just stay away from the sword of anti-heroes.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-02-2011, 08:08
Sorry if this has already been posted but where is this idea of the 25% char cap coming from. Just would like to read through the article if some one could post a link.

That was one of the early rumours from before 8th came out. It's hardly surprising that you're confused when you read old threads. :)

Bob the Butcher
04-03-2011, 09:52
Grey Seer's
Grey Seer Power Scroll, Skalm, Foul Pendant
Grey Seer Skavenbrew, Talisman of Preservation (in unit of 40 Storm Vermin)
Grey Seer Book of Ashur, Skalm
Grey Seer Earthing Rod, Skalm, Talisman of Preservation

Warlord's
Warlord Wizard's Hat supporting caster, Shield
Warlord with the Fell blade, Shield, War litter (3+ AS)
Warlord XHW, Tail Weapon,Poison Armour of Silvered Steel & Talisman of Endurance (6 Poisoned attacks, 2+ AS, 5+ WS)

Battle Standard Bearers
Chieftan BSB, Storm Banner & Shield (4+ AS, 6+ parry save)
Chieftan BSB, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation (4+AS, 4+ WS)
Chieftan BSB, Enchanted shield, Talisman of Endurance, Iron Curse Icon (3+AS, 5+ WS)
Chieftan BSB, Armour Silvered Steel, Shield, Luck stone (re-rollable 2+AS, 6+ Parry save)
Chieftan BSB, Sword of Swift Slaying, Glittering Scales, Shield

Assassins
Assassin Warpstone Stars (9 Strength 5 throwing Stars)
Assassin Glittering Scales, Blade of Nurglitch, Another Tricksters Shard
Assassin Potion of Strength, Tail weapon
Assassin Blade of Corruption, Another tricksters Shard
Assassin Armour Silvered Steel, Luckstone (re-rollable 2+AS, 4+WS assassin's dodge)
Assassin Rival Hide Talisman, Skalm
Assassin Rival Hide Talisman,Tail Weapon, Glittering Scales

sknich
04-03-2011, 22:52
I love the book of ashur and skalm on my grey seer. For Warlords I keep it simple, Halbred and poisoned attacks usually. BSB I normally keep naked and away from anything resembling an enemy.