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vinush
06-05-2010, 21:36
Hi all, quick question reegarding Empire detatchments and counter-charge rule.

My Parent unit (20 swordsmen, full cmd and Character) are charged by Knights (any type will do, but in the actual situation it was Brets KotR). My detatchment of 10 Halberdiers counter-charge into the flank.

Detatchment go first, and kill 1 knight. Knights now get to attack.

The real point of the question comes in here. Do the knights get their +2 Strength for Lance versus the Detachment, as the knights have charged that turn, or do those knights attacking the detatchment lose the +2 Strength from the Lance because they didn't charge the detatchment?

This actually came up in a game, and we ended up dice rolling because we couldn't come up with a definitive answer.

TYIA

THE \/ince

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2010, 21:42
The +2 is merely contingent on the knights charging, and not on the knights attacking the unit they originally charged.

vinush
06-05-2010, 21:46
But common sense would dictate that if you charge forward with a lance, and are taken from the side, you can't turn your lance to get the impact from it after the attack from the side has happened...

THE \/ince

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2010, 21:55
The part of that which doesn't make sense is the detachment getting to strike first, not the lance somehow being incapable of being turned on them. How, exactly, are these halbediers supposedly outrunning a charging warhorse and getting completely around the lances to get their licks in first, in the first place?

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2010, 22:23
Best to simply count the counter charging unit as charging.
You then revert to initiutive order to see who goes first from the charging units.

Otherwise we get the stupid occurance of them going before ASF or higher initiutive chargers and such.

As for the OP's question.
Nothing prevents the knights from getting their charging bonus against a unit counter charging them in the flank.
So long as you are charging, you get the bonus strength from your lance. What the unit your attempting to kebab is doing is irrelevant.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2010, 23:05
You then revert to initiutive order to see who goes first from the charging units.That would make sense, but counter-chargers, like pikes, get a special initiative segment before (other) chargers yet still after ASF.

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2010, 23:14
That would make sense, but counter-chargers, like pikes, get a special initiative segment before (other) chargers yet still after ASF.

Just because of the shoddy wording.

My way works better, and is more fun.
Which is the most important rule.
So official :D

Who cares anyway? 8th ed is right around the corner which if rumours are anything to go by (which they are, especially internet rumours which are all truth!) fantasy is just going to become WotR but with fantasy models and square bases instead of LotR models and round bases in pointless movement trays.

burad
07-05-2010, 00:48
In any case, you have to decide which unit the knight in contact with both units is attacking. He has to choose to attack either the unit he charged or the counterchargers; although his horse could attack the one he didn't.

T10
07-05-2010, 07:01
But common sense would dictate that if you charge forward with a lance, and are taken from the side, you can't turn your lance to get the impact from it after the attack from the side has happened...

THE vince

"Common sense" would dictate that you only got the lance bonus on your first attack. After all, once you've moved into combat you're just standing there, right?

-T10

Crovax20
07-05-2010, 15:43
This is anwsered in a GW FAQ about the main rulebook

Q. Does the Strength bonus conferred by spears and
lances to charging models only apply against a unit that
they actually charged, or does the bonus also apply to
enemy units which may have counter-charged them in a
situation such as mentioned on page 45, at the end of
Pursuit into Fresh Enemy?

A. Against all enemies, even those that might have
counter-charged them. This is because in reality the
chargers from both sides would be simultaneously
running into each other and not moving in turns.

WusteGeist
09-05-2010, 22:35
Also not only are you reading the rules incorrectly in reference to weather you get the +2 or not, you also are goofing up on who strikes when. In the case of multiple charges you must go off initiative order.

The exact break down is as follows.
Knights charge Swords.
De-attachment unit counter charges.
Knights swing first having the higher initiative value.
Horses and de-attachment unit dice of for who swings first as they both are tied for Ini.
Whoever looses this roll off then swings.
Any swords left standing then swing back.

As I stated in the other thread about lances and counter charges. Our interpretations of the rules do not matter, its the actual rules that matter.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-05-2010, 23:57
In the case of multiple charges you must go off initiative order.While that's true for an overrun-into-enemy unit that was charged, for example, it's not true for countercharging detachments, which strike before the unit they countercharged. Page 39 of The Empire codex: "In the close combat phase, resolve the countercharging detachment's attacks first, then resolve the attacks of the enemy and finally work out those of the parent unit that was charged."


Our interpretations of the rules do not matter, its the actual rules that matter.Never say this. It guarantees that anything else you wrote about the "actual" rules in the same post must necessarily be incorrect, by the rule of irony.

Rhaivaen
12-05-2010, 20:44
While that's true for an overrun-into-enemy unit that was charged, for example, it's not true for countercharging detachments, which strike before the unit they countercharged. Page 39 of The Empire codex: "In the close combat phase, resolve the countercharging detachment's attacks first, then resolve the attacks of the enemy and finally work out those of the parent unit that was charged."


Absolutely correct.. Counter-chargers go first then the chargers, then the rest :)