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Hlokk
19-02-2006, 14:07
Hi guys

If you have a copy of xenology, take a look at the page with the dead ethereal on it. Now take a look at the feet. Don't tau models have hooves rather than feet (The firewarriors/pathfinders etc... do)

So am i missing something stupidly obvious or have GW dropped the ball?

Charax
19-02-2006, 14:47
Are you sure the tau have hooves, or is it just that their shoes/boots look like hooves?

Hlokk
19-02-2006, 14:57
here's aun Shui, same caste as the ethereal disected:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/hlokksmarines/newimage.gif

He is unarmoured and has hooves.

Xisor
19-02-2006, 15:17
Yup. Totally and utterly buggered themselves this time.

I knew there was something not quite right about those, but I couldn't place my finger(toe} on it. Not only that but they managed to make a bigger mistake. Well, GW or the Necrons did at any rate: A Magos praying to the Emperor? Wouldn't that be the Machine God?

:rolleyes:

Still, if this is the worst they do, then it's still a bloody good book.

Xisor

Moi Dix Mois
19-02-2006, 15:25
The Emperor is regarded by certain sects of the Cult Mechanicus as the physical manifestation of the Machine God/Omnissiah/Uber Titan, so that can be explained away slighty easier than anatomically incorrect Tau.

I'm relatively sure that the Tau are supposed to have 'Camel' feet rather than hooves anyway...

Unless these Ethereals have secretly been worshipping Tzeench.:wtf:

Xisor
19-02-2006, 15:40
Cloven Hooves are what camel have, isn't it?

Hlokk
19-02-2006, 15:41
I'm relatively sure that the Tau are supposed to have 'Camel' feet rather than hooves anyway...
Nope, fraid not mate. There was a quote from the original tau designers notes in WD that the tau were given hooves after the designers decided they looked too human.

Cyberjankie
19-02-2006, 16:08
*lol* If you think it's bad what they did to the Tau in this book, than just look at the Kroot: He has a nose, like never before had a Kroot (and that makes his face looking completly wrong), his breast-muscles are wronge, he has just 3 Fingers instead of 4(!) and on some pics (the first one in his cell and the one where he is shooten and falling down), he has a very long tail (at least half way to the ground when he stands instead of the short stump)! I realy like this book, but what they did to my beloved Kroot is just bullsh** :mad: I realy got the impression, the guys that painted the Kroot stuff had never seen something about them before! :mad:

BTW: That "changes", they made to Kroot and Tau in this book, make them look more Human and less alien, whats a very bad thing, in my opinion...

Xhalax
19-02-2006, 16:46
I never even noticed that fact......I'm not a fan of Tau and so haven't really paid such close attention to such things (yes I know, I shall hang my head in shame). But it's a valid one.

But I'm with Xisor....'tis still a brilliant book

Decius
19-02-2006, 16:56
*lol* If you think it's bad what they did to the Tau in this book, than just look at the Kroot: ... I realy got the impression, the guys that painted the Kroot stuff had never seen something about them before! :mad:

If I am not mistaken, kroot can evolve "on the fly" based on the genetic material they eat. Now, I have not read this book nor seen this picture but is it possible that this particular kroot made himself look like this? Of course, if the text says "Typical Kroot Warrior Pictured Above" then the picture would be wrong. Perhaps some one with the book can see if this is possible.

Xhalax
19-02-2006, 17:02
I got the impression that they were trying to ground alien phyisology into something more human for understanding. Trying to make a comparison to something that we might have a better idea on.

After all, people do anthropomorphise things

halo
19-02-2006, 17:10
Yes, it certainly looks like an almighty cock up, obviously whoever proof read it , wasn't being diligent enough. Bloody good book though despite this error.

Wraith
19-02-2006, 18:03
Now *that's* funny...

I haven't got the book yet, but I mean wow... they actually put feet on them instead of hooves?

This is a new low for GW...

DoomedDiceThrower
19-02-2006, 18:23
i find this rather amusing :)
Looking forward when I get the book in about three weeks...

Inquisitor Engel
19-02-2006, 18:23
*sigh*

Some people are never satisfied.

Nevermind that the book is interesting and well written, once again. Let's all focus on the ONE mistake! My word, The Empire Strikes Back must be a HORRIBLE movie because the Storm Trooper bangs his head and walks out with a cocked helmet! FOR SHAME!

It's a little more-nitpicky, but come on people. No one is going to say you're wrong if you say Tau have hooves instead of feet, anyone with the Xenology book is most likely already a die-hard and had a quick laugh at it already.

Lighten up.

Not to mention it's written by (IIRC) MvS. ;)

Cyberjankie
19-02-2006, 18:41
Some people are never satisfied.

Nevermind that the book is interesting and well written, once again. Let's all focus on the ONE mistake!
One Mistake? Sorry Dude, but I think you can't count! The whole Kroot-Pics are also mistakes! A Nose, just 3 Fingers, Bred-Pitt-BreastMuscles and a LONG Tail! What a lot of bullsh**! If they had given Eldar green skin or Orks 6 Linbs, you would be pissed now, but hey, it's just damn little Kroots, so who's interested in :mad: Go BlackLibrary and kill there whole Background and look :eyebrows:

Hlokk
19-02-2006, 18:50
Some people are never satisfied.

Its not that mate, its that its a basic schoolboy error. The book is about alien biology for a large part, to say they can't even get the fudamental's right (See earlier Kroot comments on body muscle structure and finger structure) really says something about the project management on this book.

Im not saying that it isnt well presented and well written, because from what i've seen of it (its next to me but im too busy with this and coursework) it is, it just seems that GW employ absolutely no quality control at all. To say Mark Gascoine is the producer, im disappointed that something that basic has slipped through.

Sandlemad
19-02-2006, 19:54
Its not a mistake, it's revisonism.;)

Seriously, I feel the pain with the kroot aswell. The tau's feet looked very hoof-like anyway, not a full horse hoof but what I saw as a better, more realistic version. Is Aun'shi the only barefoot tau model?

The kroot, though. Well, IIRC this kroot had been serving away from pech for some time, maybe even a son of one who ate a fair few humans. I suppose that could explain the nose and maybe the muscles. The fingers are just a cock-up.

And speaking of cock-ups,(:angel:) they completely changed kroot reproduction. Now its done via the ever popular 'human' method, rather than the male planting his hands on the female's back and sweating onto her.
A minor point but I feel I have a duty to be outraged about it.

Wow, I'm really plumbing the depths of nerd-dom with this one...

RampagingRavener
19-02-2006, 20:16
Gotta agree with Engel here. Yes, there are mistakes, most notable the Tau's feet (which, BTW, I think look far better than a hoof). The thing about the Kroot is that bearing in mind their enhanced evolution abilities, if one had eaten several humans, then its not completely stupid that it might have taken on some human elements, such as a nose and a more human reproductive system.

Even the odd mistake like this hardly distracts from the book and the wealth of other information it contains-the Q'orl, Umbra, and Thyruss for example. Three completely new races, all of the notably diffrent from anything thats come before.

Or the way that it sheds light on the creation of the Etherials, the Hrud which up until now have had next to nothing about them finally being revealed a little and dispelling the "Space-Skaven" image. Theres even hints at the Old Ones, such as in the Umbra and the Exodite token.

Even the selection of odds and ends at the end is nice, it just screams "things we wanted to do but didn't have enough for", and gives even more material for others to work from. The whole backstory of the Inquisitors investegation and the way he is manipulated is well done, linking each of the dissections together and bringing it to life.

Cyberjankie
19-02-2006, 20:19
Wow, I'm really plumbing the depths of nerd-dom with this one...
Welcome at Warseer :chrome:


And speaking of cock-ups,() they completely changed kroot reproduction. Now its done via the ever popular 'human' method
Realy? Because I was so sad after seeing what they did with my Kroot at the pictures, that I lost my disire to read it until now... Do Kroot now have human-like reproduction organs? :wtf: Has this strange book author not even read the Index Xeno Kroot, before he written that? Or is it realy a "plan", to make some aliens (Kroot and Tau) more humanlike? Maybe to show: They are all (Humans, Tau, Kroot, Eldar, Orks, Hrud) releated to each other, because they are all children of the old ones? (The Necrons kill the Inquisitor at the end, right? The archenemy of the old ones and the reason, the chreated this races) Well, that could be a reason, but I realy think it's a bad decision: Don't take that away, what makes aliens alien!


The thing about the Kroot is that bearing in mind their enhanced evolution abilities, if one had eaten several humans, then its not completely stupid that it might have taken on some human elements, such as a nose and a more human reproductive system.
I don't realy think a Kroot lose a finger(completly, without rudimentary stuff!) because he eats some humans... :eyebrows: And if the reproduction system of Kroot chances so heavy, because of what they eat, Kroot would soon get reproduction trobles, because every kindred or every Kroot has diferences here :eyebrows:

ArtificerArmour
19-02-2006, 21:19
The ethereal dissected is female.

All the tau represented in the game terms are male.

Conclusion?

Males have hooves, Females don't.

Sorry, but i can come up with a geeky excuse for everything. try me.

Xhalax
19-02-2006, 21:48
The Empire Strikes Back must be a HORRIBLE movie because the Storm Trooper bangs his head and walks out with a cocked helmet! FOR SHAME!

Ummmmmm...it was A New Hope where that happened.

Anyhoo.......

Males having hooves and females having feet. And interesting thought. I guess we'll see with Commander Shadow Sun as I believe she is a she.

IncubiLord
19-02-2006, 22:01
Those Kroot have obviously been eating SPACE SKAVEN! :evilgrin:

Yamato
19-02-2006, 22:33
Ummmmmm...it was A New Hope where that happened.

Anyhoo.......

Males having hooves and females having feet. And interesting thought. I guess we'll see with Commander Shadow Sun as I believe she is a she.


Sadly, we won't as the model has covered feet. Though I might add they are slightly um... hoof-shaped.

Sir Charles
19-02-2006, 23:04
Just how foot like are we talking here with the Etherial.

Xhalax
19-02-2006, 23:23
Sadly, we won't as the model has covered feet. Though I might add they are slightly um... hoof-shaped.

Well that was a damn fine piece of logic that was twarted by reality.
Damn
*shakes her fist*

Well I'm all out of ideas.

As for the feet.....they're much like the hands. Somewhat stubby looking and with three toes.

IncubiLord
19-02-2006, 23:35
It must be a war victim with grafted legs!

Iron Gob
20-02-2006, 00:05
So much for the 'Black Library is canon, and 100% accurate! GW check all the BL stuff over in triplicate, they would never let anything be published that they didn't explicitly approve of and endorse!' GW fanboy crowd. ;)

To me, it's just another example from a long line of BL fluff clashing with source material. Not that it spoils the book, or other BL books, they can still be cool. But regardless, GW should be doing better than this. It's a sloppy mistake.

Then again, maybe it's just revisionism. Though I doubt it.

Xhalax
20-02-2006, 00:11
If you think you can cut it....try this (5th message down):

http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3983&SearchTerms=who,edits,these,things?

IncubiLord
20-02-2006, 00:51
Random quote from the Tau questions thread over in News and Rumors discussion:

Why in the name of the Tau'va do Aun'va's honor guard have feet!
So it turns out that some Tau have feet while others have hooves? :wtf: This is getting out of hand.

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 01:02
So much for the 'Black Library is canon, and 100% accurate! GW check all the BL stuff over in triplicate, they would never let anything be published that they didn't explicitly approve of and endorse!' GW fanboy crowd. ;)
Given I am almost absolutely the last person that can be described as a 'GW fanboy', I don't think that those that consider the BL novels to be canon (well, they are) take the above stance. Rather, it might be more along the lines of: "Black library is 100% canon, and as accurate as wargame stuff (which is to say, not at all)."

With that said, the BL novels do attract a lot of sycophantic 'fanboyism'.


But regardless, GW should be doing better than this. It's a sloppy mistake.
On that you've got my agreement.

Kage

Cyberjankie
20-02-2006, 01:14
If that is true... Oh my good, what have you done, GW? Some Tau with feets and some with hooves? Has someone had a very close look to this guardian guys of Aun'va, to say if it's realy true? I get a very bad feeling... Has someone allready read the fluff in the new Tau Codex? Are there now Tau with feets and also 3 Finger Kroot with noses? :confused: :wtf: I hope not...

Inquisitor Engel
20-02-2006, 01:16
One Mistake? Sorry Dude, but I think you can't count! The whole Kroot-Pics are also mistakes! A Nose, just 3 Fingers, Bred-Pitt-BreastMuscles and a LONG Tail! What a lot of bullsh**!

You are aware that the Kroot can look pretty much like anything they want right? That's hardly a mistake. Stop freaking out.


If they had given Eldar green skin or Orks 6 Linbs, you would be pissed now, but hey, it's just damn little Kroots, so who's interested in :mad: Go BlackLibrary and kill there whole Background and look :eyebrows:

Excuse me? I playtested the upcoming edition of Codex: Tau and helped write the new Markerlight rules, I also figured out the designation for the new Stealth Suits (XV-25).

I have a Tau army, so if you think I don't care, think again.

Now, having consulted with some in the studio, why the Ethereal has feet:

Tau do indeed have hooves, for the most part - Ethereals have more regular "feet" (for a very good, very secret reason).

Why does Aun'Shi have hooves? Aun'Shi and the other Ethereal (the old limited edition one has feet as well) were both sculpted very early in the Tau development time.

Space Marines used to carry lasguns and shuriken catapaults, Ethereals used to have hooves. It's ok, calm down. :)

Oh, and:


Ummmmmm...it was A New Hope where that happened.

Ummmmmmm... not the one I'm talking about. When the stormtroopers drop Han off after he's torturted by Vader his arm slips and knocks the Stormtrooper's helmet to the side. The trooper just walks out with it like that.

IIRC it was fixed in the DVD edition, but not in the Special Edition versions.

RGB
20-02-2006, 01:41
Some people are never satisfied.


Lighten up.

Clearly, there must be at least one person with a high post count to say that. Repeat after me: Lighten up. Stop Whining.

Good thing this isn't a computer game forum, otherwise it would be followed by a "Learn to Play".

I mean, SOMEBODY's gotta throw the weight behind the company every time.


Not to mention it's written by (IIRC) MvS. ;)

And so?

Iron Gob
20-02-2006, 01:53
You are aware that the Kroot can look pretty much like anything they want right? That's hardly a mistake. Stop freaking out

Yeah, seems to me that the gene-absorbing accounts for it nicely, I don't see what the problem with this bit is.


If you think you can cut it....try this (5th message down):

http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3983&SearchTerms=who,edits,these,things?

Nice, I like the 'put up and shut up' attitude, I mean that honestly. It's misaimed in this case though, as my issue isn't with grammatical and spelling errors in BL books, it's with BL putting out glitchey fluff. Glitchier, I should say. ;) A proofreader who says "Uh, excuse me, but this seems pretty much out of kilter with the Codex/Index Astartes/Index Xenos/etc" is going to be told "Yeah, uh-huh, that's nice, now get back to your job and fix our typos".


Given I am almost absolutely the last person that can be described as a 'GW fanboy', I don't think that those that consider the BL novels to be canon (well, they are) take the above stance. Rather, it might be more along the lines of: "Black library is 100% canon, and as accurate as wargame stuff (which is to say, not at all)."

Source material is consistent except on a few fairly obscure niggles, providing you stick to one edition of the game. A lot of cross edition stuff is awkward. But BL stuff is often inconsistent both with source material and with itself, both in detail and mood! And when there are clashes between the two, it's almost always the source material that has the 'better' of the two versions, though that's a subjective matter of opinion and I freely admit it. I see BL as being no different from Star Wars and Star Trek novels; that is, semi-canon at best. Doesn't matter that GW staffers write some of them, there were ST script writers and producers who contributed to novels and that doesn't alter their status.

Not that I think everything the BL does is bad. There's a lot of good stuff, and there is dross, just as is to be expected in any spin-off novel selection.

But still - for me, it's always source material > BL fluff.

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 02:11
Well, that's fair enough then. Thank you for explaining your position. Suffice to say that I find the wargame books to be equally suspect, since much of the information there is slaved to Rule of Cool, Revisionism, Edition Drift and, most heinously of all, Wargame Balance.

That's OffT, though.

Kage

Ubik_Lives
20-02-2006, 06:23
Tau do indeed have hooves, for the most part - Ethereals have more regular "feet" (for a very good, very secret reason).

Why does Aun'Shi have hooves? Aun'Shi and the other Ethereal (the old limited edition one has feet as well) were both sculpted very early in the Tau development time.

As far as I can see, the sneak peak with Aun'Va shows that he also has hooves. His honour guard however appear to have more human feet.

Shinzui
20-02-2006, 08:33
Quite, Aun'va definately has hooves. while his bodyguard have feet, as far as I know they aren't ethereals....Ahh the contradictions of good old GW continue :rolleyes:

Edit: It better be a really good reason. The hooves were one of the main characteristics of the Tau (that includes the ethereals). Knowing GWs other 'surprises' it's probably going to be another let down.

Eulenspiegel
20-02-2006, 08:39
Tau do indeed have hooves, for the most part - Ethereals have more regular "feet" (for a very good, very secret reason).
Is that a joke, diversion tactics or a hint? :)

lapis_lazuli
20-02-2006, 12:49
The ethereal dissected is female.

All the tau represented in the game terms are male.

Conclusion?

Males have hooves, Females don't.


Sorry to slap down your point AA, but it's established in the background that Fire Warriors can be either male or female. Xenology establishes that Tau females have no breasts so all those little FW minis could be either male or female. And they all have hooves. :p

Also, another little mistake in Xenology: the Tau's blood is described as blue while in the Ta'lissera background story in the Codex it's red. :(

cpl_hicks
20-02-2006, 13:00
has anyone thought that the "hooves" could be shoes

they have evolved from, hooved animals, when they suddenly advanced in the 100 ish years of the warpstorm that saved them from the imperium, they grew feet.

to cover this up the etherals made them where hoof shoes.

Niibl
20-02-2006, 13:45
Well, I had not enough time to read the book properly but the short look I had told me that who ever made the sketches must have been under a lot of stress due to lack of time or something like that.
Maybe the artist was not quick enough with his pencil as the corpse was cut up so fast by the surgeon and thus had been forced to be somewhat creative about the parts missed out?

The Kroot could be from a tribe which has been devouring humans for quite a long time and thus had made the great leap from avian to human reproduction organs (Thats why it also has a nose).

Isn't it a good thing that the imperial knowlege remains incomplete and incorrect? ;)

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 13:50
Given the fact that they have alternative means of recording information, one doubt that it has anything to do with the 'speed' at which the drawing was made.

Kage

Charax
20-02-2006, 14:04
has anyone thought that the "hooves" could be shoes

they have evolved from, hooved animals, when they suddenly advanced in the 100 ish years of the warpstorm that saved them from the imperium, they grew feet.

to cover this up the etherals made them where hoof shoes.

Second post of the thread.

Wraithbored
20-02-2006, 14:15
Those Kroot have obviously been eating SPACE SKAVEN! :evilgrin:
Or the local chinese food....:D

Hellebore
20-02-2006, 14:39
No one has obviously read Engel's reply have they?

He said something that I suspected was the case ever since the insinuations from xenology came to light regarding the ethereal's origins.

Ethereal's DO have feet- because they were engineered by the eldar. They are not a naturally occuring tau race, and thus possess features not part of the mainstream tau genepool.

Of course, it is MY interpretation that the ethereals were created by the eldar, but I think the reason ethereals have feet is because they WERE engineered- irrespective of WHO did it.

Hellebore

Charax
20-02-2006, 14:46
Ethereal's DO have feet- because they were engineered by the eldar. They are not a naturally occuring tau race, and thus possess features not part of the mainstream tau genepool.

We now bring you a public service announcement:

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/839/omg9yw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That is all.

Hellebore
20-02-2006, 14:51
We now bring you a public service announcement:

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/839/omg9yw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That is all.


VERRRY mature:rolleyes:

If you bothered to read the REST of Engel's thread, you would realise this was due to the fact that Aun'shi was one of the EARLIEST sculptures of an ethereal EVER made.

I believe the space marine with SHURIKEN CATAPULT comes into this arguement (also pointed out by Engel).

The design was refined. Thus no marines with shuripults, nor ethereals with hooves.

Note that ONLY ethereals have feet, not any other tau race.

Hellebore

Charax
20-02-2006, 15:04
VERRRY mature:rolleyes:
Well, everyone needs to let loose sometimes. No offence intended


If you bothered to read the REST of Engel's thread, you would realise this was due to the fact that Aun'shi was one of the EARLIEST sculptures of an ethereal EVER made.
Which leads to the problem - some models have hooves, some don't. Thus this whole debate


I believe the space marine with SHURIKEN CATAPULT comes into this arguement (also pointed out by Engel).
The Imperium has created Shuriken weaponry in the past, but it was never that efficient - the Eldar use gravity as opposed to magnetism to project their shurikens, so their weaponry is far more effective (and viable on the battlefield) than Imperial Shuricats


The design was refined. Thus no marines with shuripults, nor ethereals with hooves.
Using the progress of how models are made goes precisely no way to justifying background. Anyway, srom what I can see, This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947011300302&orignav=9) ethereal has a hoof - although someone with the model could correct me if I'm wrong.


Note that ONLY ethereals have feet, not any other tau race.

Hellebore
was an explanation given as to why Aun'Va as well as Aun'Shi have hooves? (judging by the preview pic) I'm not sure, but people keep mentioning his bodyguards having feet too?

EDIT: On closer inspection, it looks as if quite a few ethereals have hooves. rather than imbed pictures of them all, here's a picture. (http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/6795/montage6rb.jpg)

Of course, if any of those *don't* have hooves, then fine, but it certainly looks like they do, especially in Aun'Va's case. It would be a lot easier if the ethereals weren't all wearing robes...

Xisor
20-02-2006, 15:55
I get the distinct impression that the case, as stands, is this:

The models are wrong, from a fluff perspective.

Basically, it seems the official stance is "Ethereals have feet, we dropped the ball with the models"

Y'know how Cypher is painted in DA Green Power Armour, yet he'd actually be wearing black? It's like that. They cocked it up. That is all. It happens.

Xisor

Charax
20-02-2006, 15:57
then again, there's only one piece of fluff that says ethereals have feet, so that could, equally, be wrong.

Xisor
20-02-2006, 15:59
Except Engel has confirmed it as 'the thinking' that the Design team are now going by(but that the miniature team managed to miss}.

Xisor

Charax
20-02-2006, 16:02
vague Dev Team thoughts to not a basis for...well, anything - after all, the Dev Team still don't know what to do with the Ordo Sicarius.

Xisor
20-02-2006, 16:09
I thought they did know. Simply: 3 Ordos[Hereticus, Xenos, Malleus], everything else is misnamed. I thought that was the last official result observed on The Conclave. Thus you get smaller orders[so the implication being it'd now have the Order Hydra, Order Sicarius etc], but the only Ordos were those aforementioned.

Going from Engel's point, unless he was trying to cover it being an almighty gaff, then the insertion of feet in the Ethereal drawing was quite deliberate.

There is the option that the rest of the Tau Empire don't actually know that the Ethereals have feet...those hooves could indeed be prosthetics(aka shoes.

Xisor

Charax
20-02-2006, 16:13
Actually, the version observed on the conclave (and I should know, being the highest-posting, longest-serving active member of it) is "The sub-ordos such as Sicarius and Illuminas have also been mentioned. This is something we have yet to fully understand and develop ourselves at this time, but I’d ask you to keep away from this subject matter for now." - yes, they're sub-ordos, but they still don't know what to do with it.

Xisor
20-02-2006, 16:20
Fair enough then. They'll be alongside the Demiurg then. Mentioned, but they don't have a clue what to do with them.

Still, from Engel's point, it looks pretty much like the GD team did this very deliberately, as opposed to 'oops'. The models on the other hand...

Xisor

Charax
20-02-2006, 16:28
the thing I don't understand is this: if the Devteam changed their mind since the first set of models were produced (which is entirely possible) why on earth did they let the second set of models get produced with hooves? I mean surely someone up there noticed them!

I also don't buy the Kroot stuff being very valid - evolving a nose? well, perhaps, but not very likely. Evolving an entirely new reproductive system, requiring the rewiring of much of their insides? Unlikely, disasterous on evolutionary terms and boring background-wise. Would make slightly more sense if they said that the Kroot always used this method, and the hands-on-back thing was a mating ritual.

They goofed on the number of fingers they have though. Do the designers not look at the models at all? or do they not care?

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 16:44
Ha, the solution to the ordo question is simple and present in the 'fluff'. Just rename it as a Chamber, i.e. 'Chamber Theoretical and Historical'. Least that is the way that the ASP has 'solved' that problem.

Kage

Tom
20-02-2006, 16:50
Erm, how do we know that the models in the pic shown aren't wearing shoes? We see one (suspiciously wide) 'hoof' in them and the sudden logical explanation's ignored.


If we had hooves, would we need shoes to get around?

Yamato
20-02-2006, 19:06
Erm, how do we know that the models in the pic shown aren't wearing shoes? We see one (suspiciously wide) 'hoof' in them and the sudden logical explanation's ignored.


If we had hooves, would we need shoes to get around?

Noted, however it should be pointed out the even the BL has said that female Tau have hooves, see Fire Warrior.

cpl_hicks
20-02-2006, 20:10
maybe female tau have feet, but for military matters they have to wear hoof shoes

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-02-2006, 20:17
Just another point....

Check out Aun'Va Honour Guard models....

They have feet. Yet Aun'Va has Hooves....

You could take this that the Tau are evolving physically at a pace to match their expansion....

Terminatorphoenix
20-02-2006, 20:25
maybe thier half breeds (half tau half human)

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 20:31
One would hope that GW is strenuosly avoiding the 'half-whatevers' that plague Tolkien-esque fantasy, even if they are moving with increasing speed to becoming almost entirely fantasy.

Kage

Falkus
20-02-2006, 22:12
maybe thier half breeds (half tau half human)

That's biologically impossible.

Flame Boy
20-02-2006, 23:08
If Kais spent half of his time in the Fire Warrior novel wondering what humans have under their boots, then the concept of feet must seem pretty alien to him. Perhaps outdated/"bad" fluff, but the idea of a flesh ending to one's leg seemed wuite surprising to him.

Yamato
21-02-2006, 02:26
That's biologically impossible.


Care to explain how?

Khaine's Messenger
21-02-2006, 02:38
Care to explain how?

Ye Olde compatability issues. While it's possible to create a cell that could result in a Tau/human crossbreed, it is debateable as to whether it would live past conception, live past birth, live very long, live a good life, or be fertile (some halfbreeds, such as Tigons and Ligers have achieved such feats, but whether or not it could occur between creatures on evolutionary paths seperated by thousands of lightyears of space...). All of these may be possibly assisted through artificial means (or some Old Ones voodoo), but it would be so much simpler if you didn't have to do the "half-breeds" thing.

Anyway...about this apparent "news"...I don't care for it. But be that as it may, if any Tau are meant to have pudgy human-like feet, then I hope that this is at least stuck-to in the future. As it is, I really hope it's not post-hoc justification of a "typo"....

Falkus
21-02-2006, 03:20
Care to explain how?

Different species cannot produce viable offspring. The few, few cases of interbreeding here on earth produce infertile offspring, and the parents have to be very closely related. Two species that don't have a single piece of DNA in common, like Tau and Human, would never be able to produce offspring.

Hellebore
21-02-2006, 04:31
Care to explain how?


Well, put it this way; the tau evolved on one planet, humans on another.

Humans would have more chance producing offspring with a crab than with a tau- as both humans and crabs have a common ancestor they both share the same DNA structure.

THere is little to no chance that the tau would even USE Deoxyribose as their genetic information, or at least an IDENTICAL version to that used on earth.



As to the foot thing- we KNOW that the ethereals were engineered, this is an absolute truth.

WHO did it is more amorphous, however it is strongly hinted that the eldar were involved.

Now why would the eldar put feet on them? Perhaps asthetics, perhaps no reason, perhaps it is as enigmatic as the eldar themselves (I am now flying under my own power due to hand waving).

OR, the genes they needed to put into the ethereals were associated with other genes, say for foot construction, and thus were put in accidentally.

Many genetic diseases are still around because they are so conserved due to their proximity to vital genes that they are not bred out of the population.

Or perhaps the new ethereal genes interfered with the natural development of the tau hoof.

Their hoof is clearly analogous to a terran hoof, and thus are merely a highly derived foot anyway.

If the genes that control hoof development malfunctioned, or worked incompletely, then the fusion of the digits would not occur, and a foot would be made.

Genes don't have to be ADDED to change how an animal develops, simply altered in some way.

A flipper is simply the malfunction of an apoptosis controlling gene that failed to tell the cells between the fingers to die, thus maintaining a fleshy paddle instead of a hand.

Hellebore

I am the Monkey King
21-02-2006, 09:57
Slightly off topic here, but way back in the dawn of time, called Rogue Trader by some, it was mentioned that humans and Eldar could interbreed, though it was rare. Has anyone ever seen anything to contradict this?

cpl_hicks
21-02-2006, 10:49
Different species cannot produce viable offspring. The few, few cases of interbreeding here on earth produce infertile offspring, and the parents have to be very closely related. Two species that don't have a single piece of DNA in common, like Tau and Human, would never be able to produce offspring.

this could link the the whole old ones/ necron debate, it tau and humans can crossbreed then it would be fair to assume that they may have been "made" by the same older race, or it could be they where made by seperate races but the ones that made the tau wanted them to crossbreed with humans so that the tau would gain some thing from the humans that they dont have i.e a higher warp presence

BaronDG
21-02-2006, 11:05
Back in the days, the ultramarines librarian was half eldar. I doubt that would be the case today...

Lastie
21-02-2006, 11:24
Using the progress of how models are made goes precisely no way to justifying background. Anyway, srom what I can see, This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947011300302&orignav=9) ethereal has a hoof - although someone with the model could correct me if I'm wrong.


As some who owns the model, those are hooves. Either that, or he/she's suffering from a very nasty foot disease.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
21-02-2006, 13:32
Or, no Tau have hooves. Look at the illustation.

The angle of the feet suggest that the 'hooves' we see on Tau models are simply boots. If the Tauwalk around on just their toes, then this would be appropriate. And it even goes so far as to suggest that the Tau evolved, and I quote 'cloven hoofed ruminant'

I thank you.

Ubik_Lives
21-02-2006, 14:23
The angle of the feet suggest that the 'hooves' we see on Tau models are simply boots. If the Tauwalk around on just their toes, then this would be appropriate.

Again we look to Aun'shi. Aun'shi's 'hooves' aren't as thick as his leg where it joins with his leg. The flesh curves in a bit to meet with the hoove. If that were a boot, it would be crushing his foot to achieve such a change in thickness. Plus the fact that it is happening on all of his toes would indicate that these are not infact boots, but instead three hooves.

ArtificerArmour
21-02-2006, 15:28
Maybe this is just a case of redesign.

AFAIK, the Aun'shi character is being dropped and his model retired (shame, nice figure). So this can just be an example of GW redeveloping the fluff and background a little bit.

Lamhirh
21-02-2006, 16:31
If any crossbreeding can occur it would have to between two species either made/modified by the Old Ones or C'Tan with such a thing in mind. From an evolutionary standpoint it makes some sense, it takes genetic diversity via introduction of foreign DNA to the next level. A strategy very much like that of the Tyranids and the Kroot. Xenosplicing seems difficult but it is by no means impossible, and given the level of genengineering abilities of the Old Ones in particular it would probably be a piece of cake (for them). Considering Xenology has made it clear that Humans, Eldar (and presumably Orks and Tau) all use variants of Deoxyribonucleic Acid to transmit genetic information it is safe to assume that all share a common origin, however indirectly. Given the chemical similarities 'mixing' then would require only one thing: a virulent polymerase-like enzyme specifically made for the task. It's far too complicated to get into details here but this could both produce a hybrid organism and modify the gestating parent's own makeup enough so that rejection does not occur. Btw, Tau Ethereals have hooves NOT feet and GW/BL authors should settle on the number of digits the average Kroot has :rolleyes:...

Kage2020
22-02-2006, 01:58
Slightly off topic here, but way back in the dawn of time, called Rogue Trader by some, it was mentioned that humans and Eldar could interbreed, though it was rare. Has anyone ever seen anything to contradict this?
While the fact that this 'fluff' has not been contradicted is valid, much like the 'fluff' on the origins of the Chaos Gods (excepting Slaanesh) from the RoC:LatD, just because it is printed doesn't mean that it makes sense! The latter never made sense, although you can make it sensical if you take some liberties with the 'fluff'... ;)

What a surprise! :D

Kage

Zzarchov
23-02-2006, 00:03
You guys seriously think this is wierd?

Some Tau have feet(valley dwellers) ..some Tau have hooves (the plains dwellers) and..AND..some Tau have wings/Gliding membranes (the Mountain Dwellers/ Air Caste).

It is entirely possible that the Ethereals..despite being a fifth caste..originally came as an evolution from all the other four castes..so some ethereals have feet..some have hooves..some may even have wings or webbed feet.



I think its funny that you think some tau have WINGS and others not is normal...but some having feet and some having hooves is strange?

Sir Charles
23-02-2006, 03:43
The air caste no longer has wings...

sulla
23-02-2006, 05:09
I think its funny that you think some tau have WINGS and others not is normal...but some having feet and some having hooves is strange?

:D :D Hahaha... Well said.

Hellebore
23-02-2006, 05:20
The air caste no longer has wings...


I believe they are more 'vestigal' than functional, but as far as I know they still have membranes stretched across their armpits.

Hellebore

Shinzui
23-02-2006, 06:30
Despite it not mentioned in index xenos: Tau and is not in any picture of the air caste?

Agamemnon2
23-02-2006, 06:51
Only GW could publish an art book and then get the actual art in it wrong...

NAVARRO
23-02-2006, 07:12
air cast has wings? heck didnt know that and im modeling a hybrid without them... wen i saw a ilustration of air cast it didnt had wings and forgeworld air caste models dont have wings also.:eyebrows:

hooves a mistake? seriously doubt it i think xenology its a concept allegory or interpretation rather than carved in stone fluff (does that even exist?)...

what i dont understand is why complain wen GW isnt original and sometimes very over conservative but wen delivers original and fresh concepts its also motive of critique.

concepts evolve or not by assimilating diferent fresh interpretations from diferent sources... dont you like it? or dont make 100% sense in your own opinion? well thats called personal preferences...

for example nids now are not suposed to be bugs but rather space dinosaur... do i agree? no... so i ignore what i dont like and develop what i like.. its called having fun in a hobby:D

new biovores dont have typical 5 head carapace nids have... and one pair of limbs almost non existant... so? if you dont like something change it according to your personal concepts and preferences.

etherals have feet or hooves? its your choice and if you like both... left is hoove and right feet:evilgrin: no problem taus are pure fantasy and only a fool woundnt take this oportunity to have fun with modelling concepts... well you can always call GW incompetents( but that doenst take you anywere)

Khaine's Messenger
23-02-2006, 07:39
its your choice

Yes. It is. I can choose to stop buying their product. So my 40k can be whatever I want it to be (in fact, I'm delusional enough to say that mine is better). Now wouldn't that be fun? If they want to keep my readership, they're going to have to be able to get things like this right, even when doing a retcon or "re-imaging" while making a note of it instead of dropping it in somewhere and hoping no one notices (even the Squats got a blurb about their disappearance eventually, and the current Tyranid codex makes special note of their changing appearances--does Xenology make any mention of this Tau's feet? I don't know, I haven't read it...). I want them to tell me when things like this change and preferably why they've changed (they seem to be able to do this with the wargame...), not simply drop it in my lap and pray without having done a proper job only to later claim that any typo or error on their part is by default "new canon."

I mean come on. I'm not quite ticked off about this all that much, but only because it's what I've come to expect from them. Like I said once in some other dusty thread, if GW wants to catch my eye again they should at least give me an inkling of a notion that they know what they're doing. Stuff like this....it inspires confidence not at all.

WarbossKurgan
23-02-2006, 09:53
What about the option that the Magus/Inquisitor/Imperial Scribe was producing the drawing from a corpse that had no feet? So he assumed (wrongly) what they would look like.

I don't have the book and I haven't seen the drawing, so this is pure guess work, but the tradition of an unreliable narrator is used to "correct" a lot of fluff changes. Squigs used to be Tyranid creatures, now they are part of the Ork biology: Explanation of the change? The Imperial Xenologists guessed and got it wrong.

Sephiroth
23-02-2006, 12:12
Not to mention it's written by (IIRC) MvS. ;)

Um, Simon Spurrier actually.

But I agree, it's a small detail that even I (a rabid Tau fan) can easily overlook.

However...


Now, having consulted with some in the studio, why the Ethereal has feet:

Tau do indeed have hooves, for the most part - Ethereals have more regular "feet" (for a very good, very secret reason).

Why does Aun'Shi have hooves? Aun'Shi and the other Ethereal (the old limited edition one has feet as well) were both sculpted very early in the Tau development time.

Space Marines used to carry lasguns and shuriken catapaults, Ethereals used to have hooves. It's ok, calm down. :)

Jeez... first it was the facial hair, now it's the feet! To be honest, it sounds as if GW is just trying to cover it's back as it were. Tau don't have facial hair, but since some Ethereal models were sculpted with it, it's now what they have. BL artist draws a Ethereal with toes, ergo they now have toes...

Why, oh why can't they just say: "Yep, we made a slight mistake, the artist didn't have the best reference material to work with... but hey, still a good book right?"

Seems far simpler than changing anatomy purely because of a incorrect piece of art.

After all, if GW are changing their Ethereals to suit that particular picture, then the Ethereal has no nasal-slit in the large picture (but does in the close up), and the nasal-slit is now where her nose (if she were human) would be, instead of bisecting her brow like the rest of the models.

Yeesh... :rolleyes: :p

Burnthem
23-02-2006, 17:12
maybe female ethereals have feet and slightly differing facial features to male ethereals?

Sephiroth
23-02-2006, 17:30
maybe female ethereals have feet and slightly differing facial features to male ethereals?

So Female Ethereals have toes... some males have human-like feet... some don't have the diamond-shaped bone-ridge... some have their nasal-slit in the wrong place and female Ethereals have a standard Tau face, but Fire Caste female's have a nose...?

Or we can say and accept GW are having some consistency issues? :p ;)

Burnthem
23-02-2006, 19:40
ok, ok, GW has messed up....again....plonkers....

all in all though, this is still an extremely interesting and original book, and i hope it will set the trend for the foreseeable future.

Hellebore
24-02-2006, 04:41
Despite it not mentioned in index xenos: Tau and is not in any picture of the air caste?


You want to use PICTURES as evidence, after complaining about their inaccuracy?!:D

I believe it was mentioned in the original Tau codex regarding the air caste's origins (flying on the thermals amongst the mountains).

They still have vestigal ones, and I doubt that an air caste pilot would have slits in his jumpsuit for the skin membrane to hang out.

Hellebore

Sephiroth
24-02-2006, 10:29
You want to use PICTURES as evidence, after complaining about their inaccuracy?!:D

I believe it was mentioned in the original Tau codex regarding the air caste's origins (flying on the thermals amongst the mountains).

They still have vestigal ones, and I doubt that an air caste pilot would have slits in his jumpsuit for the skin membrane to hang out.

Hellebore


The Air caste form the pilots and messengers of the Tau and spend a great deal of time in space. As such their skin is usually paler and their bone structure far lighter than other Tau. Indeed, some of the bones in the Air castes' upper body are hollow, perhaps a genetic throwback to the days when these Tau are said to have sported wings and could fly.

From the Index Xenos article on the Tau. The way it's worded would seem to indicate that if they did have 'wings' (more like patagia) they disappeared during the Tau's rapid evolution.

That's not to say a few Air Caste might not have them anymore, as a genetic throwback (the novel Kill Team). The individual Kor might even be regarded as extremely gifted he can trace his ancestory back to their ancient days.

Wraith
24-02-2006, 11:16
Not 'wings' -- skin flaps between limbs, they don't have them now.

fracas
24-02-2006, 11:50
from the WD tau release issue the ethereal models appear to have feet as well, but this may just be the pictures

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tau/catalog/aunva.htm