PDA

View Full Version : Tactics for and VS the HORDE RULE.



Shimmergloom
07-05-2010, 15:53
Now 8th isn't out yet, so all we have is rumors.

But we might as well start thinking about ways to use the horde rule to our advantage and ways to counter it if you see it on the table.

From the basic rumors that appear to be set in stone:

1. If you are 10 wide and have more ranks than your opponent you get to be stubborn if you lose combat.
2. Outnumber bonus may be gone.
3. 2 ranks always gets to fight if you have models alive to fill those ranks. However the 2nd rank only gets max 1 attack.

All these things combine to mean that big units get some buffs over MSU elite units(although those units still get to fight in the 2nd rank and will at times get to use the stubborn rule against monsters/chariots and cav)

So let's talk about when and why you should try out a horde unit or 2? And how you can counter it if you see it being placed against you.

I have a quick idea on how to try to counter it if you see it placed against you.

If I was using CW's or Black Guard or other elite units, you do have multiple ways to deal with it.

Shooting is the easy answer, but it could be difficult to panic a 50+ strong unit that is very likely to have their general in or near the unit.

A good counter is that when you see that unit and you will, because they are going to have to start ranking it up well before hand, is to put your small units 12-wide to counter that 10 wide.

Sure you might lose ranks, but you gain attacks. It's much better for a unit of 20 black guard to be 12 wide, with 8 in rank 2, vs being 5 wide.

5 wide you get 15 attacks(+1 with champ and another +5 with cauldron). and +3 for ranks.

12 wide you get 32 attacks(+1 for champ and another +12 with cauldron) and +1 for your rank.

I honestly think that it can be a boon for elite units as now they can try and be wider as well and get more attacks in. As it's better for BG or CB to be wider with less ranks, as losing attacks for the 2nd rank hurts them more, while goblins, ungors, skaven, marauders, zombies and the like, only have 1 attack anyway, so their 2nd rank is as effective as the front rank.

Any other thoughts?

minionboy
07-05-2010, 16:56
If these rumors are true, then I'm going with HE spearmen all the way.

Units of 40, 10x4, where every model gets to attack! That's 41 ASF attacks!

Kalandros
07-05-2010, 17:08
40 spearelves, FC is 385 Points, gets 41 attacks - yes...

60 Orc Boyz with Shields, FC is 390 points, they get 31 attacks


Spears go first, 41 attacks, hit on 3s -> 27 hits average -> 9 wounds average -> 4+ armor save from HW+Shield+LA -> ~5 Unsaved Wounds

Orcs strike back with full force
29 Attacks that hit on 4+, S4 first turn wounds on 3+, and unmodified armor (starts at S5 apparently) of 5+ for spears results in ~6 unsaved wounds
Champion's 2 attacks hit on 4+, S5 first turn wounds on 2+ and leaves a 6+ save to the elves for almost a guaranteed kill

So dem boyz have won. And of course I wouldnt take 60 boyz, I'd take less and have a unit of NG netters come around to make the spearelves S2 with nets unless I roll a 1 of course.
Add to that Fanatics that will whittle down your 40 attacks before you get to combat while if fanatics hit my big units, I will have plenty to refill the 3 ranks of attacks I have...

Jericho
07-05-2010, 17:56
Being a Dogs of War player I can tell you that buckets of ASF S3 attacks won't mean anything, especially if you don't reduce the incoming attacks by wiping the enemy front rank. I'd take 5 Chaos Knights worth of attacks over 40 ASF spear/pike attacks any day.

Deathpepper
07-05-2010, 19:34
The best answer to a horde like that would be blast templates and breath weapons.

Alltaken
07-05-2010, 19:44
lots of shooting and wethering down. Hordes arent so manouverable even with the new movement rumored rules. You can out play them any time.

rtunian
07-05-2010, 20:07
but 40 spearelves is a MUCH smaller unit than 60 orcs.
honestly, i hope the horde rules are smart enough to tell the difference between 20mm and 25mm crap infantry.

Shimmergloom
07-05-2010, 23:10
Yes, shooting is always the common answer. Let's think of things other than shooting that can be used to counter horde units or how horde units can be worked out to the best advantage.

First those orcs w/shields don't have 31 attacks if they are 10 wide. It would be 19 S4 and 2 S5 attacks in round 1, if you're using the shields.

Now if you make them 2 choppas, that's 28 S4 and 3 S5 attacks.

If frenzy still gives +1A, then savages 10 wide w/ 2 choppas are the class of the Greenskin book. 37 S4 and 3 S5 attacks.

Avian
08-05-2010, 00:30
From the basic rumors that appear to be set in stone:

1. If you are 10 wide and have more ranks than your opponent you get to be stubborn if you lose combat.
Read the summary again, the Horde rule and the Stubborn rule are separate, you don't need to be 10 wide to be Stubborn.

Chaosminon
08-05-2010, 11:09
If frenzy works for the back rank as well, I would almost want to see a chaos warrior horde... with extra hand weapons that would be... 60 str 4 attacks, it would be a pricey unit, but that would be insane

Kalandros
08-05-2010, 18:13
Only 1 attack from any other rank than the front. Else you can build up massive amount of attacks with many combinations.

Necromancer2
08-05-2010, 18:32
it'll play very similar to it is now.. except that units of core can actually win.

Shimmergloom
10-05-2010, 15:42
If you can be stubborn by just having one more rank, then what really is the point of the Horde rule?

sulla
11-05-2010, 22:12
Any other thoughts?More questions than anything else.

How are attacks allocated? Are poorly protected characters worthwhile anymore (this applies to all elves, most beast, O&G even the less seen daemon characters). We don't want to force players into only high armour character choices do we?

Can opponents step up vs flank or rear attacks? It seems to punish good manouver if they can.

If I have a 10 wide frontage and a 5 wide unit charges me, who gets to attack? Just those in btb contact?

How will stubborn, frenzy, hatred, stupidity, unit movement, charge diverters, skirmishers, fleeing direction etc work?

Personally, I can't make any judgements on hordes or any of the combat rules until the other puzzle pieces start to come together. Sure, I could mathhammer out some results but one on one combats with no casualties and no characters/items influencing the fight?... Pretty rare in my experience.

I like the new magic rules, love the new scenario rumours, feel positive about the expanded magic item lists, I'm coming round to liking the new character cap, but I can't forsee the ramifications of the combat/move changes yet. There's too much unknown at this stage.

Walgis
13-05-2010, 14:57
i will take salamaders againts horde :) becouse breath weapons will hit if partely covered by template :) so 3 salamanders shoot ~20 unsaved wounds, quite nice i would say :) but its all rumors.

VonUber
14-05-2010, 20:46
Shoot it, charge it in the flank, ITS INFANTRY IT DIES TO A GUST OF WIND!

Dungeon_Lawyer
15-05-2010, 10:40
i will take salamaders againts horde :) becouse breath weapons will hit if partely covered by template :) so 3 salamanders shoot ~20 unsaved wounds, quite nice i would say :) but its all rumors.

supposedly a horde unit (any unit that outnumbers) nearby unit will force panic checks on friendly units smaller than it and with 12" That makes Sallie fire downright gamechanging against a horde unit, with the one wound forces a panic check rule their breath weapon has.

OldMan
15-05-2010, 11:10
lots of shooting and wethering down. Hordes arent so manouverable even with the new movement rumored rules. You can out play them any time.

This. I think i will stick to standard 25-rat blocks of clanrats. Stubborn 5 isn't all that great, i lose manouverability. If i were to try it, i Would take a unit of around 40 with spears + screaming bell for unbreakability.
Stone throwers can ruin me a day arleady, i don't need to invite more of them.

Zaustus
15-05-2010, 16:01
Okay, here it is, the Skaven Horde Of Doom:

Warlock Engineer w/ Biting Blade (General)
330 Slaves (in a 30x11 formation)
330 Slaves
330 Slaves

That comes to exactly 2000 points. Better yet, on a standard 72" wide board, it exactly fills up the entire width of the board with no spaces! It has no flanks at all. If you charge any unit, the Slaves are getting 90 attacks at I4. Against normal T3 infantry, that's 10-11 wounds caused.

Please note that I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek, and don't really think this is a good idea.

VonUber
15-05-2010, 16:04
units of 14 dark elf crossbowmen with shields can handle it. Lets see 3 units of them thats 84 shots. Now in 8th the rumour is I can fire and attack in 2 ranks? Thats great with a shield I gain a 4+ armour save in combat. Thats 14WS4 with hatred S3A's!

So If I dont gun them down by the time they reach me I still have a good chance of killing whats left.

Why would I ever take spearmen again? xD

Has anyone noticed, if infantry is getting such a big boost that more people will take lots of hand guns?

Zaustus
15-05-2010, 17:11
The last I saw of that rumor (firing in two ranks), it only applied to bows, not to guns/crossbows/thrown.

That's not to say that a DE rxbow-line wouldn't wipe the floor with 'em, just that you won't be shooting in two ranks. Also, your spearmen would (according to rumors) be fighting in 3 ranks, so that's why you'd take them.

Your comment on increased popularity of shooting is interesting though. It's true that light shooting tends to work best against infantry, whose armor is usually unimpressive and are slow to reach the guns. I'm curious to see the real rules, since surely these rumors are far from the complete picture. Heavy cav should still work nicely against small-ish units of shooty infantry, though.

VonUber
15-05-2010, 23:38
My list for 8th so far is a level 4 and a level 3, 3 units of 14xbowmen with shields, 2 units of 18 black guard, 2 charriots, knights, 4 units of dark riders, 2 bolt throwers and a hydra. Im 50/50 on taking shades, dislike the new skirmish rumour.
Dont usualy take that much shooting, but im an elite army horde is a bit scary but with enough shooting i will be fine. Plus the black guard can take the charge. Im never gonna charge now that im not garanteed to be in, its not worth the risk unless somone else charges into me and cuts short.

Emeraldw
16-05-2010, 23:38
Unless I am mistaken with the rumors, lining up hasn't changed, why would you even want to be 10 wide in the first place? You could still only get 7 max into combat.

Paraelix
16-05-2010, 23:44
If these rumors are true, then I'm going with HE spearmen all the way.

Units of 40, 10x4, where every model gets to attack! That's 41 ASF attacks!

Wrong. According to the rumours, you run a unit of 50- 5x10. Cos Horde grants 3 ranks, spears +1, Helves +1. 51 attacks.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-05-2010, 09:19
I know I probably sound more bitter than I actually am, so I apologize for that but I think horde is only marginally useful for weak (S3) infantry. What is the return on investment? Another kill? Unless a unit has other (often army specific buffs), it's not going to do much but get beaten into such a bloody pulp the like of which we've never seen before.

So, unless a unit is already decent without these rules, I see very little additional incentive to field more of them.


Im never gonna charge now that im not garanteed to be in, its not worth the risk

What risk? The charger gets +1 CR. Depending on the units in question, he's either got a good shot at defeating you without it or he doesn't but either way who actually charges is of relatively little import.

Vsurma
18-05-2010, 12:24
I agree, I have been saying it for a while now.

Horde will do almost nothing. (if you need 50 models)

The only things that can afford to go horde are cheap things with s3 attacks, in which case getting an extra rank of attacks in is almost pointless, or deathstars where you spend 1000pts on that 1 unit.

Now if 25+ models counts as a horde I think we will see it, otherwise not really.

Vsurma
18-05-2010, 12:26
I know I probably sound more bitter than I actually am, so I apologize for that but I think horde is only marginally useful for weak (S3) infantry. What is the return on investment? Another kill? Unless a unit has other (often army specific buffs), it's not going to do much but get beaten into such a bloody pulp the like of which we've never seen before.

So, unless a unit is already decent without these rules, I see very little additional incentive to field more of them.



What risk? The charger gets +1 CR. Depending on the units in question, he's either got a good shot at defeating you without it or he doesn't but either way who actually charges is of relatively little import.

I imagine he means the risk of being flanked a turn or 2 later. The charger tends to take more risk of being flanked than the opponent.

L192837465
20-05-2010, 16:59
Gateway will become the most powerful spell in all the game, ever.

Malorian
20-05-2010, 17:04
Gateway will become the most powerful spell in all the game, ever.

:wtf:

The bigger the units (obviously made up of cheaper models) the less of an effect gateway has.


I look forward to seeing how well units of 50+ gnoblar do at holding up the enemy while my ogres work their way in for the counter charge :D

L192837465
20-05-2010, 17:06
:wtf:

The bigger the units (obviously made up of cheaper models) the less of an effect gateway has.


I look forward to seeing who well units of 50+ gnoblar do at holding up the enemy while my ogres work their way in for the counter charge :D

On strength 11 or 12, the ENTIRE UNIT is REMOVED. Let that sink in, and get back to me.

Malorian
20-05-2010, 17:07
On strength 11 or 12, the ENTIRE UNIT is REMOVED. Let that sink in, and get back to me.

*slaps head*

Sorry... too much idiot in my coffee this morning...

FictionalCharacter
20-05-2010, 17:08
1 x 12 chaos warriors + extra hand weapons + MoK = profit.

probably.

L192837465
20-05-2010, 17:09
*slaps head*

Sorry... too much idiot in my coffee this morning...

No worries. I'm like that, too. At least before my sixth cup.

Frankly
20-05-2010, 21:27
I looking at doing 40 N.gobbos with bows, ten wide = 20 shots(not including the solvo shooting rule), 20 shots for stand and shoot + 2 fanatic's. Then NG the unit has alot of attacks back with horde ranks. Less than 250pts a unit.

How much is a unit of 40 HE spearmen again?

Sinaris
26-05-2010, 11:55
360 points with no command, but you run 50(450) of them, 10 wide, 5 deep. 50 rerollable asf attacks is going to force some saves :P Still, alot of points in a unit that MIGHT be effective, points could be spent better elsewhere.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-05-2010, 12:56
I think almost everyone will be better off with slightly larger but still multiple units instead of just a few huge ones. Getting a flank charge in will be quite important even if it "only" removes stubborn and not the rank bonus. At the same time, flanking will be more difficult if it is really true that you can so easily reform with your musician. You'd need to have units in different arcs before and after possible reforms while watching your own flanks and you don't know if both units will make it there.

In the same vein, support units will remain quite useful.


I imagine he means the risk of being flanked a turn or 2 later. The charger tends to take more risk of being flanked than the opponent.

Perhaps, but redirecting will be easier. Oh, and with flee reactions the charger stands the risk of getting stranded and flanked in 7th, too.