PDA

View Full Version : 2nd ed lictors



wyvirn
09-05-2010, 04:10
Whenever I heard about 2nd edition, someone always mentions virus outbreak or lictors. I was able to get a summary of the former, but i cant find much of the latter. I think i heard somethign about deploying inside enemy vehicles and killing the crew, or something like that.

Also, if it's not agianst site regulations, would it be possible to link the rules so i can see for myself? If it is, disregaurd this second part.

Ramius4
09-05-2010, 04:18
Whenever I heard about 2nd edition, someone always mentions virus outbreak or lictors. I was able to get a summary of the former, but i cant find much of the latter. I think i heard somethign about deploying inside enemy vehicles and killing the crew, or something like that.

Also, if it's not agianst site regulations, would it be possible to link the rules so i can see for myself? If it is, disregaurd this second part.

No, they could not deploy inside a vehicle:rolleyes: Don't know who you've been listening to, but they're making stuff up. They're good infiltrators, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

Virus grenades/outbreak was just one of those things that people quickly realized were a bad idea. It didn't take GW very long to ban them in an issue of White Dwarf.

Phyros
09-05-2010, 04:30
It's possible he was thinking of the Tyranid Event Table.

One result was that there was a small Tyranid creature inside the vehicle that attacked the crew every time the vehicle moved.

Mojaco
09-05-2010, 08:28
Nah, that would mean there's an edition in which lictors were worth it. Somehow Lictors escaped the routine of horrible unit - overcompensated excellent unit - overcompensated horrible unit - etc routine that many other units see. Lictors have been consistently bad :)

Morty
09-05-2010, 09:00
Ya both wrong What made them So HOrable is that ya got 3 of them as a group of independant Charicter and Heavy Weapon hunters,

M 6
Ws 8
Bs 3
S 6
T 4
W 3
I 8
A 4
LD 10
Save 5+ Dodge

Flesh Hooks
Pair Str 4 pistols, Ignore Terain for movment

Comelion Scailes
Add Cover save to Dodge save (is still dodge save so invunrable save is improved)
Deapstrikes INTO cover (nominated at deployment) Can Assult on turn arives

Peramone trail
grants +1 all rerseve rolls

Feader Tenticlas
Gives Itself and All squads within 6 inches alwaies hits on 3+.

Fearless

Also forced Squads with flamers to wast there time Firing into cover so as the player could attempt to flush out any lictors hiding there on a 4+.

Also at the start of the Game Tyranids Forced Each unit to roll on a Combat table to represent tyranid bio-creaturtes droping in behind the lines and lictors had there own entries in the tables

Tethylis
09-05-2010, 09:23
Flesh Hooks
Pair Str 4 pistols, Ignore Terain for movment

Comelion Scailes
Add Cover save to Dodge save (is still dodge save so invunrable save is improved)
Deapstrikes INTO cover (nominated at deployment) Can Assult on turn arives

Peramone trail
grants +1 all rerseve rolls

Feader Tenticlas
Gives Itself and All squads within 6 inches alwaies hits on 3+.

Fearless

Also forced Squads with flamers to wast there time Firing into cover so as the player could attempt to flush out any lictors hiding there on a 4+.

Also at the start of the Game Tyranids Forced Each unit to roll on a Combat table to represent tyranid bio-creaturtes droping in behind the lines and lictors had there own entries in the tables


WTF, I dont know what game you were playing but most of these things (no cover saves, no deepstrike, no reserves, CC certinly did not hit on 3+) did not even appear in 2nd ed. The Tyranid event tables were rolled on for either enemy squads, vehicles, characters or dreadnoughts, the composition of the tyranid army had no bearing on these whatsoever

shabbadoo
09-05-2010, 09:48
Ya both wrong...

Um...no. That's *3E*.

In *2E* flesh hooks(R: short 0-8, long 8-16, Str 4, -1 save modifier) were shooting weapons that, if the target was hit and survived(due to failed to wound, made armor save, had multiple wounds), it was dragged 2d6 toward the Lictor. If that brought it into base-to-base contact then the models fought right afterward because the Assault phase follows the Shooting phase.

They also had poisoned attacks that worked differently than the current poisoned weapons, and acute senses. You could also include any number Lictors in your army. One on its own was annoying enough, but two or more of them were downright nasty.

Also, Chameleon Scales made them -1 to be hit when they didn't move, and their Exoskeleton 5+ save was what we would call dodge save, not an invulnerable save. Also, a Lictor that was Hiding couldn't be "spotted", except by special equipment(scanners, bionic eyes), though it might be "detected". Even if it were detected, if something was fired at it and hit, the Lictor was only hit on 4+. Then of course the hit had to wound and the Lictor got its dodge save too. Yes, it was really hard to shoot a "detected" Lictor. The Lictor's Str 6 also meant -3 on your armor save, so MEQs saving on a "6". The Lictor also had 3 wounds. All of this for less than 100 points, at a time when a single basic Space Marine cost 30 points.

That's why they were evil.

The current Lictors are not bad, but the Toughness 4 thing makes them very vulnerable. One won't do much, but a group of 3 working as a team can wreak some havoc; especially if you actually play with terrain that blocks LoS.

Souleater
09-05-2010, 10:27
Shabbado pretty much covers it.

Lictors were potent hand to hand fighters with the ability to rip through numerous back line units unless they were stopped. Opponents genuinely feared them and had to devote resources to taking them out before they did more damage.

Obviously one Lictor could only kill one unit at a time but closely packed armies were generally going to lose something each turn.

In a game with overwatch it gave the Nid player a distraction to get his gribblies into CC without getting shot apart.

Flesh Hook also let them pull pilots out of open topped skimmers - quite handy for Nids in 2nd Edition where they could not attack skimmers in assault.

They could also have other bimorphs to make them tougher to kill such as Regneration or an extra 'invulnerable save', my fave, bioplasma to help kill all the cussing skimmers.

They were nasty, killy stabby balls of death unlike the rather damp scout/buffers of today :(

Gensuke626
09-05-2010, 10:34
Nah, that would mean there's an edition in which lictors were worth it. Somehow Lictors escaped the routine of horrible unit - overcompensated excellent unit - overcompensated horrible unit - etc routine that many other units see. Lictors have been consistently bad :)

Actually, Lictors were awesome when they got test rules back in 3rd ed. When the Catachan codex came out, they included a chapter approved entry for the Lictor. It was basically the same beast we see in the 3rd ed book, but it also automatically broke squads that it beat in hand to hand combat on the turn it charged.

Ramius4
09-05-2010, 12:58
Nah, that would mean there's an edition in which lictors were worth it. Somehow Lictors escaped the routine of horrible unit - overcompensated excellent unit - overcompensated horrible unit - etc routine that many other units see. Lictors have been consistently bad :)

In 2nd edition, Lictors were worth every point. The confusion they could cause an opponent was often worse than the damage they would actually inflict. More often than not, just the distraction of a Lictor can save 100+ points per turn worth of other things not dying. I've seen many a player place a squad on overwatch for two or three turns, waiting for the Lictor to come out of hiding, only to be disappointed when it just sits there. Priceless;)

Gaargod
09-05-2010, 13:34
The devs still have nightmares about the old style lictors. That's why, for every edition since, they've been really bad. But there was nothing like watching a lictor pop out, rape a squad and then just sit there acting immortal. Damm things could walk into a squad of termies and come out the other side with bits of termy armour on its claws.

Oddly, genestealers don't get the same stick. Despite the fact that in the (i think) 3rd ed rulebook list, not codex, there were stupidly awesome, they do't get as smacked with the nerfhammer.

Ramius4
09-05-2010, 14:41
Damm things could walk into a squad of termies and come out the other side with bits of termy armour on its claws.

That's quite an exaggeration if you're talking about 2nd edition. Lictors could beat an individual Terminator in close combat, but not by much on average, and the Terminator has better than a 50% chance to survive each wounding hit.

If the Lictor becomes engaged with multiple Terminators, it just becomes progressively harder for it to win any given combat. As long as the first Terminator survived combat with a Lictor, my money would be on the Terminators to win out in the end.

onidemon
09-05-2010, 14:56
I've had the pleasure of using a Lictor under 2nd edition rules recently, here's the short of how it went:

2nd edition Eldar have a profusion of 'warp' based weapons, like D-cannon platforms, and wraith-cannon. These dislocate and move enemy models around the board, or simply launch them intact into the warp itself, from which they're never seen again. They're also a nightmare for Carnifex or Tyrant type units, who are priority targets for those one-hit-kill cannons.

As the game began, the Lictor could deploy just out of sight in the Eldar deployment zone, but on the wrong side of the hill the D-cannons were deployed on for the Eldar army to see it. On its first turn, the Lictor pounces on the first cannon, killing it and one of its crew. On the next turn, it pounces on the second cannon, killing one of its crew.

The Wraithguard, unwilling to fire on the Lictor for fear of hitting the remaining crewman who could still fire the cannon, instead assault the lictor. They're all mini-dreads with an armor of 10, but that's not so hard for the Lictor to penetrate. Over the course of the next two turns, the Lictor proceeds to kill all of the remaining wraithguard, only failing in its mission when the last one suffers a cracked spirit stone that drags the Lictor off into the warp with it.

So, one unit of wraith guard, two D-cannons... not so amazing a kill count. But, while it did this, the entire Tyranid swarm advanced on the rest of the Eldar army without fear of the warp-based weapons. The result was a total wipe of the enemy force, with no Eldar survivors left by the end of turn four.

In that purpose, as a bug that can turn up anywhere and at anytime, and which is genuinely impossible to spot, stop, or even easily deal with, it is an amazing unit. But it depends on cover; since that game I've yet to get the Lictor that close to the enemy's deployment zone and have had less success with him. (and the swarm in general, who suffer badly at the hands of 2nd editions long ranged, rapid firing shuriken catapults) But, even when he's not winning the game for you, its still fun to spear aspect warriors and drag them to the Lictor's hiding place on flesh hooks. :D

Ramius4
09-05-2010, 15:19
In that purpose, as a bug that can turn up anywhere and at anytime, and which is genuinely impossible to spot, stop, or even easily deal with, it is an amazing unit. :D

They're not impossible to spot. They have to actively hide not to be spotted and a Scanner will detect them on a 4+. There's also getting within Initiative range or having a direct line of sight.

None of that is necessarily easy, just saying.

Phyros
10-05-2010, 02:30
Also, Chameleon Scales made them -1 to be hit when they didn't move, and their Exoskeleton 5+ save was what we would call dodge save, not an invulnerable save. Also, a Lictor that was Hiding couldn't be "spotted", except by special equipment(scanners, bionic eyes), though it might be "detected". Even if it were detected, if something was fired at it and hit, the Lictor was only hit on 4+. Then of course the hit had to wound and the Lictor got its dodge save too. Yes, it was really hard to shoot a "detected" Lictor. The Lictor's Str 6 also meant -3 on your armor save, so MEQs saving on a "6". The Lictor also had 3 wounds. All of this for less than 100 points, at a time when a single basic Space Marine cost 30 points.



Also remember that Detected units could only be targeted by weapons that had blast markers.

onidemon
10-05-2010, 03:29
They're not impossible to spot. They have to actively hide not to be spotted and a Scanner will detect them on a 4+. There's also getting within Initiative range or having a direct line of sight.
None of that is necessarily easy, just saying.

Fair enough, though by that point the Lictor should be doing its job of hacking stuff up in my opinion. Four turns isn't long enough for too much skulking about. :)

Angelwing
10-05-2010, 06:51
Adding to Shabbado's post, Lictors could also take biomorphs such as lightening field and regeneration which helped them immensely.

Ramius4
10-05-2010, 07:10
You mean Voltage Field. No such thing as Lightning Field (but I meant what you knew).

The fields aren't quite as good for a Lictor since they already get a 5+ unmodified save. Voltage Fields can burn out the fields of other models though, and that is fun. Regeneration isn't a bad choice for them at all. My personal favorites for a Lictor though are Aura of Torment, Sharpened Claws or Acid Blood.

Souleater
10-05-2010, 11:11
So? If the Lictor fails its dodge it then uses the Voltage field (which can also short out other fields and adds one to its STR IIRC)

Arkturas
10-05-2010, 11:45
It could also occasionally live up to it's reputation as an assassin, it could go toe to toe with most of the standard characters (SM Captains, Ork Warbosses etc)

BigBarryJazz
10-05-2010, 14:01
One memory I have of 2nd ed. was a communal game where I was controlling a squad of Mordians. A lictor popped up in the wood beside them and quickly dragged a couple of men to their doom. Everyone expected to try and shoot it with the lascannon but I thought 'sod that' and decided to charge in and give it a good kicking.
They were scary because they were so good at taking down characters, but if they had to deal with anything in numbers then they suddenly had a problem.

Splata
10-05-2010, 14:26
As did most characters in 2nd ed. Although it took them a lot of units to get over that issue as your WS only went up by one per unit in the fight so the lictor was probably going to take down 4 of your guard before the odds evened out. Still what is 4/5 guardsmen between friends!

Bloodknight
10-05-2010, 15:33
Assuming the Guardsmen charged and somebody cared to buy the Sergeant a bolt pistol or Chainsword I assume that he could kill the Lictor after 5 of his soldiers died.

(Guard Sergeant, fighting as 6th man: WS9, 7A, 1 parry. At that point he should cause something like 5-6 hits on the Lictor.)

Ramius4
11-05-2010, 16:49
It could also occasionally live up to it's reputation as an assassin, it could go toe to toe with most of the standard characters (SM Captains, Ork Warbosses etc)

Since you always have to charge the closest model though, that can be pretty difficult to be in the right place at the right time.


Assuming the Guardsmen charged and somebody cared to buy the Sergeant a bolt pistol or Chainsword I assume that he could kill the Lictor after 5 of his soldiers died.

(Guard Sergeant, fighting as 6th man: WS9, 7A, 1 parry. At that point he should cause something like 5-6 hits on the Lictor.)

The odds would still not be in favor of the Guard Sergeant killing it. WS 9 only put you 2 points above the Lictor. The parry on average might gain you another 1 or 2. Even hitting the Lictor 3 or 4 times it has a T5 so you only wound it with 1/3 of those hits. It's save is good enough that it should live to kill you off next turn.

I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's not the likely outcome as determined by the odds.

Bloodknight
11-05-2010, 18:17
Ah, I misremembered the Lictor, I thought it had WS6.

That said, I killed some Lictors in CC with Guardsmen, but as a Mordian player who likes Wysiwyg half of my Sergeants had power swords (the model has one and it's only 6 points); hitting at S5 made killing stuff in CC that wasn't in Terminator armour quite possible .

That said: one of the aspects I didn't like about the 2nd edition CC rules is that fumbles take precedence over critical hits and that you fumble on the first 1, but only the 2nd and subsequent 6s are critical hits which means that more attacks can easily mean more fumbles. I once saw a Bloodthirster fumbling itself to death because he fought a guy with 2 parries ^^.

Ramius4
11-05-2010, 19:11
Ah, I misremembered the Lictor, I thought it had WS6.

That said, I killed some Lictors in CC with Guardsmen, but as a Mordian player who likes Wysiwyg half of my Sergeants had power swords (the model has one and it's only 6 points); hitting at S5 made killing stuff in CC that wasn't in Terminator armour quite possible.

Lictor(S), nice! Power swords still have a decent chance against Terminator armor too with the -3 save mod.


That said: one of the aspects I didn't like about the 2nd edition CC rules is that fumbles take precedence over critical hits and that you fumble on the first 1, but only the 2nd and subsequent 6s are critical hits which means that more attacks can easily mean more fumbles. I once saw a Bloodthirster fumbling itself to death because he fought a guy with 2 parries

Not sure what you mean by 'takes precedence over critical hits' seeing as they essentially cancel each other out on a 1 for 1 basis. You simply have a slightly higher chance of your score being affected by the very first fumble. After you've rolled one of each, you have the exact same chance of rolling extra 6's as you do 1's.

The first 6 you roll isn't a critical as you know, so the first one you roll is never cancelled at least.

Vepr
11-05-2010, 19:17
Now lictors are good at wasting an elite slot. :p :cries:

It still slays me that they made it a point to mention they were going to fix the lictor. If that was a fix I would hate to see what the lictor would have been like if they were not trying to make it "better". Nothing more annoying than having your lictor or death leaper lurk. #!&@#!!!

Plus the whole broods of lictors thing still annoys the crap out of me even though I am not exactly a fluff nut. What next are we going to have units of assassins?

Ramius4
11-05-2010, 19:40
Now lictors are good at wasting an elite slot. :p :cries:

It still slays me that they made it a point to mention they were going to fix the lictor. If that was a fix I would hate to see what the lictor would have been like if they were not trying to make it "better". Nothing more annoying than having your lictor or death leaper lurk. #!&@#!!!

Plus the whole broods of lictors thing still annoys the crap out of me even though I am not exactly a fluff nut. What next are we going to have units of assassins?

play 2nd ed. Play 2nd ed! PLAY 2ND ED!!! C'mon, you know you want to;)

Vepr
11-05-2010, 20:45
play 2nd ed. Play 2nd ed! PLAY 2ND ED!!! C'mon, you know you want to;)

I am tempted. :D I know someone that has the material still. I still have my 3rd editon and 4th edition material but nothing from 2nd.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-05-2010, 00:50
In other words, the Lictors were awesome in 2nd and need some kind of a return to their former glory.

Vepr
12-05-2010, 01:01
In other words, the Lictors were awesome in 2nd and need some kind of a return to their former glory.

Heck I would be happy with a return of "worth an elite slot" at this point. :p Right now the are struggling to reach mediocre. It is a sad day when heavy weapons teams and firewarriors do not even fear you.

TheConvertedDeathLeaper
15-05-2010, 03:52
Hmmm... well, personally, i think the new lictors arent that bad. sure, the instictive behavior ticks me off, but that can be solved by my little friend, the trygon prime. not only does it give synapse, your enemy has to choose to shoot the big-and-right-there monster, or the hard to see little dude whos not nearly as imposing. Most will (stupidly) pick the trygon, shoot it a couple times, then get eaten, and meanwhile the lictor has a pretty fair amount of free reign. even if they dont shoot the prime, and get lucky and kill the lictor, they got a whole bigger problem than a rogue lictor, now dont they?:D