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ChaosVC
10-05-2010, 03:14
Just a question, despite playing chaos for 7 years or so, I never own a chaos chariots simply because I think the model is ugly. But having done one up thru conversion and stuff. I decided to give it an option to house a hero.

And so here is the question, do I need to pay for the mark for both the hero ridding the chariot and then pay for the mark so that the character can ride the chariot so that they have the same mark?

I have read the rules for chariot in the special troop choice section, it states that character can only ride chariot bearing the same mark of chaos as him/her. But then if you look at the character section, there is no indication that you required a specific mark for ridding a chariot.

So what I do? Do I need to pay for two marks so that my hero can ride the chariot with the same mark or not?

Zaustus
10-05-2010, 04:26
This is more of a rules question, but no, you don't have to buy the mark for both. If you mark either the character or the chariot, you can leave the other unmarked or give it the same mark. What you cannot do is have two different marks between them. Here's the effect breakdown (i.e. what happens when you give each mark):

Khorne: Mark either or both, and the entire model is frenzied.

Slaanesh: Mark either or both, and the entire model is immune to fear, terror, panic.

Tzeenth: Whichever is marked gets its ward save, but only if it has the mark itself. E.g. if you have a Tzeentch sorcerer in an unmarked chariot, the sorcerer gets his 6+ ward, but the chariot does not.

Nurgle: If the chariot is marked, the enemy gets -1 BS regardless of whether the character's marked. If the character is marked but the chariot is unmarked, there's no effect against shooting. The combat -WS effect is only applied if the enemy is attacking something that has the mark, so an unmarked hero in a Nurgle chariot would not reduce the WS of enemies attacking him in combat. Units shooting at the chariot, however, would suffer -1 BS.

ChaosVC
10-05-2010, 04:36
This is more of a rules question, but no, you don't have to buy the mark for both. If you mark either the character or the chariot, you can leave the other unmarked or give it the same mark. What you cannot do is have two different marks between them. Here's the effect breakdown (i.e. what happens when you give each mark):

Khorne: Mark either or both, and the entire model is frenzied.

Slaanesh: Mark either or both, and the entire model is immune to fear, terror, panic.

Tzeenth: Whichever is marked gets its ward save, but only if it has the mark itself. E.g. if you have a Tzeentch sorcerer in an unmarked chariot, the sorcerer gets his 6+ ward, but the chariot does not.

Nurgle: If the chariot is marked, the enemy gets -1 BS regardless of whether the character's marked. If the character is marked but the chariot is unmarked, there's no effect against shooting. The combat -WS effect is only applied if the enemy is attacking something that has the mark, so an unmarked hero in a Nurgle chariot would not reduce the WS of enemies attacking him in combat. Units shooting at the chariot, however, would suffer -1 BS.

Thanks for your help, but do you know if there's an official FAQ for this? My friends may question me about this rule and I hate to debate about things where I have no concrete premises to start with.

Milgram
10-05-2010, 14:56
brb pg 79 for khorne/slaanesh, WoC armybook for tzeentch.

the only rule in the army book is, that they might not be marked differently. unlike 6th ed chaos, there is no 'undivided' mark, so a character/unit does not start with a mark.

no FAQ needed.

the nurgle one is discussable when it comes to ranged combat.

Jericho
10-05-2010, 16:48
The FAQ does address it though, so it deserves a mention.

The FAQ reiterates that you can't give the rider and chariot different marks, so no mixing gods. I wish it was a bit more explicit in terms of mixing marked and unmarked riders etc. but it doesn't say that you must mark both. Marking one or the other seems to be a good way to shave points.

Re: Mark of Nurgle in combat I believe it's pretty straightforward that since you would allocate attacks separately against the character or his chariot, you only get the -1WS when striking the one with the Mark. Before the FAQ rewrote the Mark of Nurgle rules you would have received the benefit either way, but now it quite specifically says you only suffer -1WS when striking a model with the Mark, and not automatically for incoming and outgoing attacks simply for being engaged with his unit. This mark took a big and rather unnecessary hit IMO.

Harwammer
10-05-2010, 18:49
The rule isn't that mount and rider must have the same mark, the rule is that they may not have different marks.

This means it is fine to take an unmarked character/chariot with a marked chariot/character (so an unmarked sorcerer on a khorne chariot is legitimate even if unfluffy). However you can't give the chariot one mark and then give the character another (so a nurgle character on khorne chariot is a total write off). Of course it is permitted to buy both the chariot and character the same mark (so a khorne exalted on a khorne chariot is legitimate and fluffy even if it is inefficient on account of paying for frenzy twice).

T10
10-05-2010, 20:22
...do I need to pay for the mark for both the hero ridding the chariot and then pay for the mark so that the character can ride the chariot so that they have the same mark?


It seems reasonable to assume that if both the chariot and the character have a Mark of Chaos then they must have the same Mark, but either (or both) may have no Mark.

This is because the Marks themselves are optional upgrades.

-T10

Laton
11-05-2010, 23:50
Khorne: Mark either or both, and the entire model is frenzied.


I have a similar question:
does a character become frenzied when he joins a unit which has the banner of rage?

nzdarkelf
12-05-2010, 00:38
I would play it as yes.

Zaustus
12-05-2010, 02:21
@ Laton: Yes he does. The banner affects any characters joining the group.

Note that if the character is faster than the unit (say, mounted) this can force him to charge out of the unit. By the time the combat phase rolls around, he won't have Frenzy any more due to leaving the unit, and won't get the +1 attack.

T10
12-05-2010, 10:27
"I'm so angry, I could totally make an irrational decision right now!"

-t10

Nekrodamus
12-05-2010, 17:23
@ Laton: Yes he does. The banner affects any characters joining the group.

Note that if the character is faster than the unit (say, mounted) this can force him to charge out of the unit. By the time the combat phase rolls around, he won't have Frenzy any more due to leaving the unit, and won't get the +1 attack.

Due to the basic rules the only way to forfeit frenzy is to lose a round of close combat. Since the banner comes with no limitations (unlike f.i. Centigors), the character won't loose frenzy by leaving the unit.

Zaustus
13-05-2010, 01:38
Due to the basic rules the only way to forfeit frenzy is to lose a round of close combat. Since the banner comes with no limitations (unlike f.i. Centigors), the character won't loose frenzy by leaving the unit.

I'm afraid that's not correct. The Banner of Rage explicitly applies to "The unit with this banner" (WoC p.115). Once the character has charged out of the unit (due to that frenzy), he no longer meets the condition of being part of the unit, and thus no longer has Frenzy.

ChaosVC
13-05-2010, 05:13
Thanks for replying, a couple of questions though.

Say, if the character is mark with slannesh and not the chariot. Do I still need to take a terror, panic or fear test for the chariot?

Say, if I take mark of nurgle on the character, shouldn't all kinds of shooting be at -1 to hit(or BS) since the shoots are practically firing at the character too?

Say, if the character is mark with khorn? My best assumtion is that since the chariot is a mount, it must charge like a mad man at anything in range.

Say, if only the character is mark with tzneetch. Only Kick Ass on top gets the ward save and not the chariot.

Say, all those questions above(only if you find it relevent) except this time the mark is on the chariot.

Zaustus
13-05-2010, 05:57
See my first post in this thread, post #2. It answers all of those questions.

Milgram
14-05-2010, 08:41
yeah, you really should read the answers to your questions.

AMWOOD co
17-05-2010, 02:09
If the character is marked [with the Mark of Nurgle] but the chariot is unmarked, there's no effect against shooting.

I agree with all you said except this. Why wouldn't the chariot benefit from the -1 to hit if the character was marked? Doesn't a Chaos Dragon benefit from a character marked with the Mark of Nurgle?

Zaustus
17-05-2010, 04:27
It's inferred from the WoC faq, p.5. There it's clarified that when shooting an an unmarked unit that has been joined by a Nurgle character, the shooters aren't penalized because they aren't "'rolling to hit the model with the Mark of Nurgle', but rather the unit."

Similarly, when shooting against an unmarked chariot (or a dragon for that matter) you aren't shooting at "a model with the Mark of Nurgle," but rather a unit. Since the whole unit doesn't have the mark, the faq response implies it doesn't work.

I think it's a strange ruling, but that's how I interpret it.

AMWOOD co
22-05-2010, 10:09
GW has consistantly and insistantly stated that a character mounted on a chariot, dragon, or what have you is, all together, one model. The fact that the one model has many parts has no bearing on the situation. This is likely why the put in the clause regarding chariots, those being the only mounts for characters of Chaos you may choose a mark for.

As for a character in a unit, I can understand the situation. Why would you suffer a -1 to hit when shooting at a unit because of a character you have no chance of hitting? Still, it is not the same situation.