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eleveninches
11-05-2010, 10:48
540: lv2 Keeper (siren song, enrapturing gays, torment blade)
160: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, fly)
165: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, scroll)

120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
60: 5 Furies

175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds

175: 5 Flamers
140: 4 Flamers

crazywhiteboydance
11-05-2010, 11:14
*Rolls up newspaper & bats on the nose* NO!! ;)

Seriously dude 20 Flesh hounds?? I love daemons but have never found a needs for more than one good sized unit of those bad boys. If this is for a tourney you should do well purely with your hound units.

Seabo
11-05-2010, 17:00
k that is bloody evil...
and whatup with 2300pts? Seems like a wierd point level

MalusCalibur
11-05-2010, 18:29
Why do I get the feeling that this army was posted deliberately to annoy? Oh well...


540: lv2 Keeper (siren song, enrapturing gaze, torment blade)

I'm fine with this in isolation. Personally, I'd drop Enrapturing Gaze (I find limited use for it) and go to magic level 3 instead (to get the extra Dispel dice but to save as many points as possible). But then I don't play a magic heavy list.


160: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, fly)
165: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, scroll)

No on two counts. The first, by looking at the rest of the list, is that you have enough magic already. The second is that you took a Keeper, so this should be a Slaanesh-heavy list, and it isn't. If you must mix the gods, then only one Tzeentch Herald is neccesary here.



120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
60: 5 Furies

Guaranteed to make people hate you. You're already heavy on magic without adding power dice batteries. I wouldn't mind so much if this were a mono Tzeentch list, but since this isnt, some cutbacks are required. Maybe make one larger Horror block to put the Herald in?
Oh, and the Furies should be at LEAST 6 strong (in which case take two units), and more preferably 8, if you plan to get any actual use out of them.



175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds

Now you've crossed the line of tolerance by mixing three gods - and in the worst way possible. ONE unit of Flesh Hounds would more than suffice, two at the absolute most. Of course, taking them at all means you should drop either the Keeper, or all the Tzeentch elements. I'd vote for the Keeper since you havn't even tried to keep any kind of Slaanesh theme, so it has no place in the army.



175: 5 Flamers
140: 4 Flamers

And there it is: the final unit in the 'pick and mix' Daemon list that generates all the hate for the book, tarnishing those of us who don't abuse it with the same brush. One unit max, and it shouldnt really be 5 strong either.

Decide on the god you want to play and play that. If you insist on mixing gods, keep it to a maximum of two different ones, and keep the overpowerd units (Flesh Hounds and Flamers) to a minimum.

Phenatix
12-05-2010, 03:54
You forgot the Easy Button. You can't really field this army without it.

crazywhiteboydance
12-05-2010, 16:30
Now you've crossed the line of tolerance by mixing three gods - and in the worst way possible. ONE unit of Flesh Hounds would more than suffice, two at the absolute most. Of course, taking them at all means you should drop either the Keeper, or all the Tzeentch elements. I'd vote for the Keeper since you havn't even tried to keep any kind of Slaanesh theme, so it has no place in the army.

Firstly I'd like to see the rule that says you can't mix units from different Gods. Two at the most? Fine I'll play your game, you can only use half the entries in your army book. Sound fair?

I agree with you on the hounds, I've never had cause to field more than one unit even in massive games. 4 units is too much. But I do fail to see why taking Flesh Hounds means the op should drop either the Keeper or Tzeentch elements? Is it perhaps a need to hold onto outdated rules that were only around for one maybe two editions of the game? If so then the Tzeentch element is fine as Khorne's problem lies with Slaanesh.

Also please explain your logic behind bashing the OP for not sticking to a Slaanesh theme when no where in his post did he mention he was going for a Slaanesh themed list? In play terms the Keeper can be an excellent general for a mixed force.

MalusCalibur
12-05-2010, 17:35
Firstly I'd like to see the rule that says you can't mix units from different Gods. Two at the most? Fine I'll play your game, you can only use half the entries in your army book. Sound fair?

There isn't any such rule. But given how powerful the book is, it's perhaps more courteous to an opponent to not pick and choose the best units from each god. That's the kind of list that gets complained about.
There's no need to be sarcastic and rude, by the way.


I agree with you on the hounds, I've never had cause to field more than one unit even in massive games. 4 units is too much. But I do fail to see why taking Flesh Hounds means the op should drop either the Keeper or Tzeentch elements? Is it perhaps a need to hold onto outdated rules that were only around for one maybe two editions of the game? If so then the Tzeentch element is fine as Khorne's problem lies with Slaanesh.

No, it's not a need to 'hold on' to anything. It just comes across as a little bit powergame-y to take the best units for each category regardless of their patron, creating the kind of mixed list that gets whinged about. As mentioned above.


Also please explain your logic behind bashing the OP for not sticking to a Slaanesh theme when no where in his post did he mention he was going for a Slaanesh themed list? In play terms the Keeper can be an excellent general for a mixed force.

It wasn't bashing. It was a suggestion based on fluff - regardless of whether or not you support the idea of mixing gods, the idea of a Keeper of Secrets leading an army that contains no other Slaanesh daemons at all is a little suspect.

I'm not entirely sure why you're defending one of the worst examples of DoC powergaming, but there you are. Lists like this are what give the book its bad name. So perhaps there is underlying venom to my comments about the list, for that reason.

Lowmans
12-05-2010, 18:55
The background on Khorne & Slaanesh not getting on and Tzeentch and Nurgle not getting on has been around since Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned.

As for a rule prohibiting mixing gods like that - there isn't one.

However, there is the most important rule!!

So, I ask -

How many people would play against this list? How many would have fun? How many would play it again?!

Heimagoblin
12-05-2010, 19:45
This post is specifically designed to create an argument. He knows that this is reallypretty much the optimum list and as such does not ask for advice. What a dosh.Could a mod close this thread please?

Also, crazywhiteboydance, you cannot expect someone not to be slandered for taking the cheesiest army book, then picking the cheesiest units from each god aswell as skimping on core and going magic overboard.

thesheriff
12-05-2010, 20:05
Right i can see both arguments

Eleven inches, apart for your user name making you sound like your over compensating, your list is good (DUH).

But i have had a good look at your threads. ARMY LISTS. CONSTANTLY. And what more, they are from Blood angels, Daemons and Dark elves. 3 of the cheesiets armys around for both game systems

I have a FLUFFY KHORNE Daemon list with 2 units of 5 flesh hounds in 2k. Your list, pure and simple, is a variation on a white dwarf list posted in an 'Unbalanced' army builder article, running over 4 weeks. the only differance is replaceing the Bloodthirster (a combat monster), with a Keeper (An underated, but very deadly, combat monster). And as much skill as that takes to take an army list off a white dwarf, you don't need to post it up on the internet.

I resoundingly agree with Lowmans aswell. Who would want to play it?. I'd give it a go with my army and get bent over, then not play it again. I'd rather save my time. Buy an army that has some strong and weak units, and see how you do. Fluffy (armys which are true to the background), are always more rewarding. It will improve your skill as a gamer, and you will take pride in your army.

But, we cannot be harsh to him for wanting to share his thoughts on the internet, it's not fair. The internet is an open forum, which people can critique and comment on all they want. I apreciate that the slightly pointless put up of the list, but hey, it's his choice.

-thesheriff

z4carlo
12-05-2010, 20:42
I played basically this exact list the other week with my balanced empire army and won.
I wasnt particularly happy when it was laid down but it doesnt mean the game wasnt enjoyable ... a whfb isnt all about what happens in the game you can still enjoy yourself no matter the outcome, i enjoyed the challenge

thesheriff
12-05-2010, 20:50
You talk about the challenge for the opponent, but what about the personal challenge of taking a balanced army like your empire, and turning it into a winning force. I find that winning by taking a good list is not as fun as playing your way to the top.

oh, and about the points limit, just drop 1 of the flesh hound units and one of the heralds and beef out your flamer units for 2k

immortal git
13-05-2010, 00:22
no, god no, the two gods thing is pretty lame, but yeah 4 units of five flesh hounds, that is the kind of thing that people will refuse to play against, i wouldnt, ide accepy and give it a good shot, but the overall magic combat and shooting domination you have is ugly. i run a daemon list with three gods, but nobody complains about it, so dont expect too many rematches

crazywhiteboydance
13-05-2010, 09:41
There's no need to be sarcastic and rude, by the way.

That wasn't my intention but if you look at how your reply to the op was written there was an inherent undertone of rudeness & superiority that has become the norm since the anonimity afforded by the internet....& that riles me a bit. If that wasn't your intention I apologise.



the idea of a Keeper of Secrets leading an army that contains no other Slaanesh daemons at all is a little suspect.


I fail to see what's suspect. That's his choice.



I'm not entirely sure why you're defending one of the worst examples of DoC powergaming, but there you are. Lists like this are what give the book its bad name. So perhaps there is underlying venom to my comments about the list, for that reason.

I've not defended the list once, see my orginal post for comments on too many Hounds. I was defending the op & his right to choose a list without being villified. I've played daemons since the realm of chaos days & you're right it's lists like this that give dameon players a bad name. Instead of treating them with disdain offer a constructive critique on the list & hopefully they'll see where they've made choices that'll make it no fun to play against.

Daemon players didn't write the book, you can't then blame them for using it. Hopefully the new composition rules in 8th edition will prevent people building this style of list & thus negate future renditions of this discussion.

crazywhiteboydance
13-05-2010, 09:46
Also, crazywhiteboydance, you cannot expect someone not to be slandered for taking the cheesiest army book, then picking the cheesiest units from each god aswell as skimping on core and going magic overboard.

You can expect someone not to be slandered for their choice of army. It's common courtesy.

thesheriff
13-05-2010, 11:28
Crazy's right, it's common courtesy not to slander someone. I actually think everyones over reacting, this argument is getting a bit childish and pointless

From Shadows
13-05-2010, 11:49
540: lv2 Keeper (siren song, enrapturing gays, torment blade)
160: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, fly)
165: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, scroll)

120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
60: 5 Furies

175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds

175: 5 Flamers
140: 4 Flamers

Your army, your money so do what ever you want. It is a nasty list!

eleveninches
14-05-2010, 09:46
2k version:

565: Kipper lv3 (siren song, torment blade)
140: lv2 Herald of Tzeentch (master of sorcery)
165: lv2 Herald of Tzeentch (master of sorcery, scroll)

120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors
60: 5 Furies

175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
-----
1990


OR


275: Herald of Khorne BSB (juggy, firestorm blade, armour of khorne, baner of sundering OR +D3 CR)
140: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery)
165: lv2 Tzeentch Herald (master of sorcery, scroll)

199: 12 Bloodletters (champ, standard, banner of +D6" to first charge)
120: 10 Horrors
120: 10 Horrors

175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds
175: 5 Flesh Hounds

140: 4 Flamers
140: 4 Flamers

crazywhiteboydance
14-05-2010, 16:23
I like the 2nd list more but would seriously drop two units of hounds. Use those points to up the numbers in the bloodletter unit and get a unit of screamers 4 or 5.

I'd also find points to stick you heralds on discs, but that's merely personal asthetic choice as all my tzeentch characters bar my LoC are on discs, even my changeling.