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Mullitron
12-05-2010, 13:17
With the rumored 25% cap on characters in the 8th edition, what are peoples opinion on the characters out there (normaly special character) that are a mix of caster and close combat fighter? Characters like malekith and skrolk who within the % cap could bring both a caster and fighter to the average 2k list? Think it might actualy make them more viable?

Malorian
12-05-2010, 16:17
Their points already cover the dual abilities.

I think they would be even less viable than now as before they might be taken by a person wanting to max out the magic phase (4 mage characters) while still having a fighter, and in 8th this will not be possible with such expensive characters.

willowdark
12-05-2010, 16:22
Malekith is 600 pts. He won't fit in 2250 and he'll be all alone in 3k. And, he only gets the choice of one Lore.

This is, however, what cracks me up about the so called Vampire nerf. It's not really like Vamps will stop having a powerful magic phase, but their casters will also be premium fighters as well. A net advantage under the salary cap if you ask me.

DukeBorric
12-05-2010, 16:26
They might be usefull if your willing to put all your eggs in 1 basket, i think I'd rather use cheaper characters and spec them within limits of course.

Witchblade
12-05-2010, 19:03
They will be more viable, most of them at least, because a single L2+ is actually capable of casting some spells in the rumoured 8th ed magic system. Archaon, for example, will then be a spellcaster as well, whereas currently his spellcasting abilities are typically limited to providing a DD.

Desert Rain
12-05-2010, 19:42
I'm thinking that a L.2 and a character with the Radiant Gem might be fairly useful in 8th for the High Elves. The L.1 gives you some extra variety for your spell selection and can fight as well, especially if you give it to a prince.

Vsurma
12-05-2010, 21:12
True but a single lv1 gets 1 spell, a lv2 gets 2 spells.

Although it works out much better with being able to pick the spells and being able to use 6 dice for a single spell.

This means a lv 2 can cast 2 spells successfully more often than not.

Still, you might want 2 casters or a lv4 just for the additional spells.

For my lizardmen at 3k I think my characters will be.

Slann 315pts
BSB
Banehead
Free dice per cast

Then either an engine of the gods with priest or 2 Scar vets on cold ones.

The cap isn't all that limiting at 3k points.

willowdark
12-05-2010, 21:23
One rumour in the sticky is that spells won't be repeated each phase no matter how many casters have it. I'd have to see the rules to understand exactly how that would work, but it might make multiple lvl2's less attractive for the limiting of spells.

Vsurma
12-05-2010, 21:45
One rumour in the sticky is that spells won't be repeated each phase no matter how many casters have it. I'd have to see the rules to understand exactly how that would work, but it might make multiple lvl2's less attractive for the limiting of spells.

Only if you have no choice as to which lore you take.

Off the top of my head, lizardmen skink priests are the only mages I can think of that have access to only 1 lore.

Most races, if not all others can choose from multiple lores.

So while you cannot take 2 lv 2 mages with fire for the large and small fireballs, you could take a fire mage and a metal mage for the exact same spells just from different lores.

Just an example but you get the idea.

I think taking 2 lv2s might actually be better than a lv4 in some cases just because you get the best spells from multiple lores.

Say I am against a dragon, given the current lores I would likely take beasts, that said, beast cowers is pretty much the only must have spell, the others are much less useful but I am stuck with them.

Currently I have to roll for the spells so even with 4 or 5 spells I might not get it, which is why a lv2 taking the lore may not be enough.

With the new edition I can take a lv1 if I want and still get that must have spell, the other mage can then take something else useful from another lore.

If you look at the brb lores right now, most have 1 very powerful spell, this leaves a lv4 mage with that 1 spell, which the opponent knows to dispel. 2 mages = 2 must dispel spells.

Man I want to find out how the new lores work!!!

Who needs the same spell twice when we have many lores to choose from AND get to choose which spells we want!

Enemy has knights, spirit of the forge + magic missile with no saves from shadow lore.

Enemy has regen unit, I take wall of fire and 2d6 burning magic missile.

Enemy has superior movement, I can take the movement spells from shadow and beasts... you get the idea.

The_Bureaucrat
13-05-2010, 00:01
They will be viable if:
A)that is your only mage character
B)your other mages aren't able to use the dice you generate effciently.

Otherwise you are just paying a bunch for extra spell(s) (and possible a chance to generate a power dice depending if that rumor is true).

Maoriboy007
13-05-2010, 02:24
This is, however, what cracks me up about the so called Vampire nerf. It's not really like Vamps will stop having a powerful magic phase, .

That all depends on what effect the new changes are going to have on magic.And powerful magic phases costs points, which you will no longer be able to spend



their casters will also be premium fighters as well.

Depends on how many points you can pump into them, with a cap thats not going to be many. Hero Vamps are still only toughness 4 with 2 wounds, Lords are costly and still require points to be survivable or casting effective.


A net advantage under the salary cap if you ask me.

Its more on how much undead troops rely on their characters and magic, especially now that fear has been downgraded.
Half of your magic in the VC tends to be spent just keeping your army functional, while your characters carry the lions share of the fighting, since the troops aren't up to much.

BTW the downgrading of fear is probably the best change so far.

sulla
13-05-2010, 03:38
Sounds like the effects of fear have been moved sideways more than downgraded. If the ws1 thing is true, and it occurs each combat phase/turn rather than just one, it is a good result for poor ws fear causers like undead and ogres but a nerf for high ws fear causers like chaos knights and daemons. Thank god autobreak is dissapearing though. Hate, hate, hate losing by outnumber alone and autobreaking.

I can't see vampire lords being viable in 8th at all at the usual points values (2-2.25K). I think one fighter vampire, one wight king and a caster-general in the bunker might be the way to go. Especially if you can still fit the regen banner under the cap. Still... that's 4-500 more points for extra ranks on your core and a unit of knights, I think.

The_Bureaucrat
13-05-2010, 04:45
Heh I doubt we'll be seeing many regen banners in 2k. ( Its 225 min for a wight king, 250 min for a vamp or 270 for a vamp with armor) .

The big hit for mage/fighter hybrids will be if the miscast rumors are true (miscast if you fail to cast the spell). Risking a 55 point mage is one thing risking a 150+ point hybrid is another.

Love the fear changes tho. Very fluffy and balanced.

willowdark
13-05-2010, 17:13
I can't see vampire lords being viable in 8th at all at the usual points values (2-2.25K). I think one fighter vampire, one wight king and a caster-general in the bunker might be the way to go. Especially if you can still fit the regen banner under the cap. Still... that's 4-500 more points for extra ranks on your core and a unit of knights, I think.

I've been generally expecting the game to scale up to 3k. I know most people think that is ridiculous, and that GW can't force us to play games of any specific size, but the trend of 8th ed. rumours have been for large units. Not just horde and stubborn infantry, but the current rumour of minimum 2 ranks needed to break ranks means that Knights will need to be huge to be as effective as they are now.

I think that once people see the rules and understand the emphasis on larger units the scale to 3k will not only be necessary but reletively painless. In that case, I think Vampire Lords will still be the powerful character options they have been in 7th.

Eisenhorn
15-05-2010, 11:30
I can see vampire lords becoming very viable in 8th. They wont bring many friends in 2k maybe a naked necro. With the changes to the magic system i think a single lord with the right items and bloodlines is going to be quiet powerful.

Example: (This is based on Grimstonefires rumor summary (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845))

Lord with MotBA, Da, and a master power that fits the army

The flayed hauberk (2+) (if you only get one save)
Then fill the rest with items of your choice.

In the magic fase you would get 2d6 power dice + 2 power dice from your lvl + 2 dice from the MotBA = 16 power dice max, 6 min, 11 +/- average.

Combing this with the fact that you get to choose your spells in 8th I think this will make for a very functional magic fase. An depending on how you kitted out the lord he will be good in combat as well.

danny-d-b
15-05-2010, 12:29
if it is the case then exalteds with the book of secrets will be great- just pick up flaming sword and some defencive gear and then smach people with flaming swords

Mullitron
15-05-2010, 14:36
if it is the case then exalteds with the book of secrets will be great- just pick up flaming sword and some defencive gear and then smach people with flaming swords


Iam not sure, the item doesnt make the character a wizard. It allows the character to use a random spell and generate an extra power dice. So iam not sure if even in the 8th you will be able 2 choose flaming sword, so will still be up to rolling the right spell. However it could make the daemon prince with lore of fire more viable, especialy if larger creatures such as the prince may be getting some bonus 'crush them' rule.

Zaustus
15-05-2010, 15:52
Book of Secrets actually does make the character a wizard. Taking it even allows that character to take Arcane items.

I think your two best options for Chaos are either the exalted with Book of Secrets (if flaming sword doesn't change then it'd be a good choice), or a sorcerer on horse with sword of might and lore of death. That's a pretty potent combo right now, especially if you give him a spell familiar and enchanted shield. He's not quite as fighty as the exalted, but has a lot of in-combat casting ability.

Von Wibble
15-05-2010, 18:01
I'm thinking that a L.2 and a character with the Radiant Gem might be fairly useful in 8th for the High Elves. The L.1 gives you some extra variety for your spell selection and can fight as well, especially if you give it to a prince.

This is what I already do and it works nicely. But to answer the original question, it really depends what the new lores look like since they are being changed a lot. In 7th I: ust used spell 1 from lore of heavens to boost shooting and then give the prince rerolls when he/ nearby elite unit charged in. I don't think such a (relatively) low rsk optino will be available to me in 8th.