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View Full Version : Strength of daemons in HH books? (spoilers)



gwarsh41
13-05-2010, 14:24
First off, I know this might be a futile discussion, but it has been bugging me.

I am reading Fulgrim right now, and throughout the entire reading of the HH books I have really enjoyed how nurlge seems to get the daemon spotlight. It also got me wondering about what kind of daemons they were fighting. In the first book, one of the marines is possessed, it took around 40 bolter rounds to kill it. It also has speed and power on its side. I originally thought "oh snap, daemon prince" but DPs are made of the most loyal traitors. This marine was simply possessed and turned into something different. Possibly a spawn?

Later in the series, Horus is wounded in battle by a tainted sword. The traitor marine was a high ranking official in charge of an entire planet I believe. The description of this one seemed to fit the daemon prince profile much better. What seemed a bit strange was that Horus, a primarch had a rough time fighting it. This makes me wonder about the power of a primarch if it was placed on the table. A larger marine with a DP statline and most likely army wide rules would surely be a terrible force to reckon with. Thoughts on a primarch having a similar statline to a daemon prince?

During this time, the rest of the marines are fighting only what I can believe to be Plague bearers and zombies.

As the series went on, more and more pestilence and bile showed up. On the Eisenstein (i think) a squad of marines are reduced to goo from a viral bomb, then rise again as followers of nurgle. I am guessing they became plague marines, but the description of them seemed to be something much worse. When ever the series follows a character, I think of them as a special character for game purposes. A few of them would simply be sergents, but loken for example, or even better, lucius, he IS a special character in the game. (wonder if he is older than abbadon?) So if it mentions someone like Lucius having a hard time against a blob of puss, it is probably a mean glob of goo.
So am I just a bit crazy, and all of the touch of nurgle described in the HH books is something unknown to tabletop. Or does anyone else have theories on them?

The Judge
13-05-2010, 14:54
Possessed Marines and humans in the background/novels have always been as powerful as the author needs them to be - forget the rather conservative stats of the Possessed in the Chaos Space Marine codex, or even the Daemonhost in the Daemonhunters book.

Most of the beings you've been reading about have just been "Possessed xxx," not Daemon Princes or Spawn... except the guy that Horus fought. He would be a Daemon Prince, I reckon, though probably gifted for the wrong reasons (to fight and wound Horus) rather than because he was an awesome Nurgle worshipper worthy of such gifts.

ashc
13-05-2010, 14:54
At the end of the day I am not convinced you can compare power level on the tabletop to what goes on in the books; the daemons in books are powered by narrativium, which always means they are hard-as-nails when they need to be...

Jonman
13-05-2010, 15:15
This is what I have a problem with...

Bolters x 30 + Bloodletters = doom

Dead.Blue.Clown
13-05-2010, 15:29
At the end of the day I am not convinced you can compare power level on the tabletop to what goes on in the books; the daemons in books are powered by narrativium, which always means they are hard-as-nails when they need to be...

I'd sort of argue that it's the other way around. The game's rules are pretty famous for portraying the setting quite poorly at times, especially in terms of balance. With something like Chaos, where literally any concept is possible, things would never be as regimented as Troop Choice 1 always being X powerful and Troop Choice 2 being Y.

In the setting itself, there'd be an infinite number of subtle levels between simply Possessed, Spawn, Daemon Prince, and so on. Literally endless varieties of possibility - all of which is simply impractical (actually, impossible) for the tabletop.

FlashGordon
13-05-2010, 18:11
You cannot compare tabletop stats with the real background. If it was like that, Space Marines would suck bigtime in the stories and i would wonder how the hell they could be the moste elite force in the galaxy(And there is only 1 million of them hahahah).

Edit: of course this does not only include SM but also aspect warriors genestealers etc.

w00tm0ng3r
13-05-2010, 21:38
Daemons, possessed, and other chaos stuff tends to be ridiculously awesome in the fluff. It's like the difference between movie marines and TT marines. A certain bloodthirster especially ;) heavily associated with the Blood Angels transcends all bounds of game mechanics and pretty much reason or sanity too. Seriously, you gotta wonder how the Imperium didn't collapse 10,000 years ago when greater daemons that can 2 shot entire chapters are running around.

NightrawenII
14-05-2010, 10:27
Daemons, possessed, and other chaos stuff tends to be ridiculously awesome in the fluff. It's like the difference between movie marines and TT marines. A certain bloodthirster especially ;) heavily associated with the Blood Angels transcends all bounds of game mechanics and pretty much reason or sanity too. Seriously, you gotta wonder how the Imperium didn't collapse 10,000 years ago when greater daemons that can 2 shot entire chapters are running around.
Maybe because summonig that certain Bloodthirster is as easy as lift a elephant. Yeah it's possible, but without proper tools very unlikely.

R0ot
14-05-2010, 11:00
If the space marines were anything like they are portrayed in the HH books then you'd only need one tactical squad in any 40k game and you would whip anyone. :D

gwarsh41
14-05-2010, 14:44
If the space marines were anything like they are portrayed in the HH books then you'd only need one tactical squad in any 40k game and you would whip anyone. :D

Yeah, I am about 1/3rd through "Fulgrim" and they are fighting the laer right now. There was an exchange between two marines (honestly I will have to re read this one because I am not paying enough attention to it) They mentioned the "Massive losses" they suffered. It was gut wrenching, he lost 8 men during the spear tip assault.
In one of the other books it gets nice and dirty describing how marines are getting swatted like flies by daemons, or impaled on trees by the arachnia (cant remember the name).
The xenos that are no longer around due to angry marines power foot butt kickings are described as super awesome deadly foes, but we never read about them being the super deadly foes... Unless they are daemons.
I really enjoy reading the beatdowns, especially the nurgle vs marines beatdowns.

R0ot
14-05-2010, 16:06
Yeah, I am about 1/3rd through "Fulgrim" and they are fighting the laer right now. There was an exchange between two marines (honestly I will have to re read this one because I am not paying enough attention to it) They mentioned the "Massive losses" they suffered. It was gut wrenching, he lost 8 men during the spear tip assault.
In one of the other books it gets nice and dirty describing how marines are getting swatted like flies by daemons, or impaled on trees by the arachnia (cant remember the name).
The xenos that are no longer around due to angry marines power foot butt kickings are described as super awesome deadly foes, but we never read about them being the super deadly foes... Unless they are daemons.
I really enjoy reading the beatdowns, especially the nurgle vs marines beatdowns.

It gets much more pleasantly graphic towards the end but I won't spoil it for you with any examples, I just finished Descent of Angels myself and I have to say with all the negative feedback I heard about it I didn't think it was horrible/unreadable.

avien
16-05-2010, 08:47
First off, I know this might be a futile discussion, but it has been bugging me.

I am reading Fulgrim right now, and throughout the entire reading of the HH books I have really enjoyed how nurlge seems to get the daemon spotlight. It also got me wondering about what kind of daemons they were fighting. In the first book, one of the marines is possessed, it took around 40 bolter rounds to kill it. It also has speed and power on its side. I originally thought "oh snap, daemon prince" but DPs are made of the most loyal traitors. This marine was simply possessed and turned into something different. Possibly a spawn?

Later in the series, Horus is wounded in battle by a tainted sword. The traitor marine was a high ranking official in charge of an entire planet I believe. The description of this one seemed to fit the daemon prince profile much better. What seemed a bit strange was that Horus, a primarch had a rough time fighting it. This makes me wonder about the power of a primarch if it was placed on the table. A larger marine with a DP statline and most likely army wide rules would surely be a terrible force to reckon with. Thoughts on a primarch having a similar statline to a daemon prince?

During this time, the rest of the marines are fighting only what I can believe to be Plague bearers and zombies.

As the series went on, more and more pestilence and bile showed up. On the Eisenstein (i think) a squad of marines are reduced to goo from a viral bomb, then rise again as followers of nurgle. I am guessing they became plague marines, but the description of them seemed to be something much worse. When ever the series follows a character, I think of them as a special character for game purposes. A few of them would simply be sergents, but loken for example, or even better, lucius, he IS a special character in the game. (wonder if he is older than abbadon?) So if it mentions someone like Lucius having a hard time against a blob of puss, it is probably a mean glob of goo.
So am I just a bit crazy, and all of the touch of nurgle described in the HH books is something unknown to tabletop. Or does anyone else have theories on them?

The key thing that needs to be kept in mind is the tabletop is designed for games, things need to be kept balanced so that everyone can have a good time.

The background is where the fun is had. The strength and general awesomeness of space marines or daemons or eldar etc varies depending on who is telling the story and what they want to happen. Don't take it too literally.

Being a bit more specific about your post, when it comes to daemons mentioned in ANY setting, sure I try to identify them to one of the tabletop versions but thats it, I don't worry about the strength relative to the game cos it varies from story to story. If I can't identify the type of daemon I just assume its something new.

The way I look at it is that Plague Bearers or Blood Letters etc are just some of the most common forms that daemons take but there are countless, limitless versions swimming around the Warp just waiting for their chance to break through. Those are the ones that come up in the books.

avien
16-05-2010, 08:52
It gets much more pleasantly graphic towards the end but I won't spoil it for you with any examples, I just finished Descent of Angels myself and I have to say with all the negative feedback I heard about it I didn't think it was horrible/unreadable.

I have to agree, I think DoA got a bad review in general and particularly on here. Personally I liked the book, sure there were some aspects that I was like :wtf: But overall I found it enjoyable. Some people don't know the difference between critiquing a book and just venting their personal dislike.

You can point out a books flaws or shortcomings without following it with "THIS BOOK IS PURE CRAP!"

unfortunately the internet isn't the place to be looking for that kind of rationality.