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View Full Version : Is there a specific army build strong against daemons or dark elves?



Sinsigel
14-05-2010, 14:49
It came out while discussing about the term "big three" in a non-english forum on warhammer. While many agreed that the big three, i.e., DOC, dark elves, VC were very strong and effective armies, they believed that these didn't really ruin the overall balance of the old world. One experienced player even said that DOC and dark elves particularly, are very vulnerable to some specific armies(and related 'build's) that were revised after 2008. I wonder if I can get any informtion on this matter.

Putty
14-05-2010, 15:22
Skaven.

Simply coz they outnumber all 3 armies, have quite stable triple hammer threats and are able to contest all three phases in the game.

sulla
14-05-2010, 16:56
Daemons and dark elves have poor armour protection in general. If you can get a lot of shots at them, even low strength should pay off. DE are also very vulnerable to chariots and lack the easy access to s7 to destroy them that many armies can get. Coupled with this, they often come in small numbers so even a few casualties can seriously hamper many of their units.

Unfortunately, there are several builds for both armies that minimise these weaknesses, mainly through speed or reliance on the most resilient units in the respective lists. Both lists should be reduced in power a little in 8th by encouraging them to bring more core combat infantry (and thus invest more in making those units capable of winning), rather than just deathstarring characters into the fastest/most reliable units.

Malorian
14-05-2010, 17:53
There are too many builds to keep in mind to really say X army is a good counter for both.

willowdark
14-05-2010, 21:45
I find Ogres to be great against DE. They soak up shooting and magic damage remarkably well without loosing much combat potential, they are faster, produce a lot of high strength attacks.

Their magic is well suited against the Ring of Hotek, and with things like Yetties and Gorgers they have a lot of weapons to curb the huge movement advantage DE have against most armies.

And a Tyrant with Tenderiser and Longstrider is ridiculously effective against everything in the list.

My DE currently have a loosing record against my regular Ogre opponent.

ooglatjama
14-05-2010, 21:57
I find Ogres to be great against DE. They soak up shooting and magic damage remarkably well without loosing much combat potential, they are faster, produce a lot of high strength attacks.

Their magic is well suited against the Ring of Hotek, and with things like Yetties and Gorgers they have a lot of weapons to curb the huge movement advantage DE have against most armies.

And a Tyrant with Tenderiser and Longstrider is ridiculously effective against everything in the list.

My DE currently have a loosing record against my regular Ogre opponent.

There are quite a few things that can mess up Ogres in a DE army, Ogres aren't that good overall anyway.

willowdark
14-05-2010, 21:58
Explain.

Common wisdom on WarSeer is that Ogres are no good, but they're a popular army around here and I see them do pretty well in their own right.

Gaargod
14-05-2010, 22:02
Unfortunately, DE tend to come in maxed out builds.

Fast, shooty and avoidy - Ogres have major problems closing the gap. Shooting also wrecks ogre units, even with T4, as they have next to no armour.

Magic + gunline - least powerful of the builds, basically comes down to whether the ogres can close the gap fast enough.

Cavalry/monster spam - Dragon, hydras, cold one cav and dark rider core. Horrendous for ogres, as everything outfights (barring the everpresent tyrant) and outmoves them.


Yeah... dark elves aren't a nice match up. Daemons are probably worse though - instability is a massive pain for ogres, who rely on breaking stuff usually.

ooglatjama
14-05-2010, 22:02
Mostly because ogres rely on getting impact hits and squishing things for CR. ASF BG are an example of something that will get ogres. While they may kill a few with the hits, the elves will hit back and do damage. Even if they lose they probably will stay. Next turn you're in for some hurt. DE are also great at gunlines, enough shots will bring down those ogres; even if ogres are M6.


Same time post

meneroth
15-05-2010, 05:16
Well we all know the tyrant with tenderizer and longstrider is the freaking man. he murks bitches like its his job, cause it is.

In all seriousness though, good anti-DE builds are as follows (off the top of my head):

-knight heavy bretts with a bit of magic defense
-skaven in any build these days do pretty good against DE, especially the plague censor bearers
-tomb kings CAN do well against them, but they dont have any magical build to kill them, its just the scorpions and skeleton archers and chariots are all very effective against t3 armies, plus TK magic is pretty good to avoid the ring.
-wood elves can outshoot the DE pretty easily but have trouble againsts big monsters.
-WoC knight/magic build can crush DE in the right hands.

There are more, but thats all off the top of my head. to be honest though, a good DE player with a tourney level list can crush just about all of the above mentioned lists, except maybe a tourney skaven list.

sulla
15-05-2010, 21:09
I find Ogres to be great against DE. They soak up shooting and magic damage remarkably well without loosing much combat potential, they are faster, produce a lot of high strength attacks.:evilgrin: They are pretty good vs DE and HE. I remember the first time I played them and lost half my unit of swordmasters to a single round of shooting from maneaters and a brace of pistol tyrant. They are a pretty good MSU bait and flee army.. Unfortunately for a lot of players, I think they expect them to play like Ogres, instead of Wood Elves. They are not an army that can just surge forward and steamroll their opponents. Well, not in this edition anyway. Maybe in 8th...