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ZAlpha
14-05-2010, 14:24
Hi Warseer,

Last night we were having a large game of WFB at the shop. And this situation arise...where we don't seem to find any clear conclusion upon.

The Vampire player takes 5 Vampire for his army, one of them is BSB. He then put all of them in a large unit of Blood Knights [10+] with full command.

Now, since he wishes to form a 5-man wide unit... can he put all the Blood Knights' command model in the second rank?
I know it's a bit odd, but can you put all the command models in 2nd rank due to limited space as per page 80 of BRB.


Also, if it's a valid formation. Then there will be another question to follow.

Do the Blood Knights have to charge enemy unit if it's in charge range? We were arguing that they don't have to as all models that are Frenzy do not have line of sight to said unit(s), and all models in the front rank are not subjected to Frenzy.
Or do they still have to charge as the rules say that it must charge if there is enemy unit within range and unit's arc of sight ?

Thanks for all the answers.

Cheers,
ZAlpha

_toast_
14-05-2010, 14:38
I think that the whole unit loses frenzy, i seem to remember a rule for that. If somebody joins a unit, and does not have that characteristic, then it is lost. Also, its more than valid to have the command units on the back burner. That seems legit to me. You can also do it with bretonnian forces as well.

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2010, 14:45
The formation is legal; just keep in mind that command models that are not in the first rank do zilch. As for the frenzy... well since the frenzied models don't see anything they do obviously also not have to do compulsory charges. However if you throw hills or large targets into the mix...

Griefbringer
14-05-2010, 14:53
I think that the whole unit loses frenzy, i seem to remember a rule for that. If somebody joins a unit, and does not have that characteristic, then it is lost.

Not quite the case. You might want to check the BRB section about characters in units and psychology (BRB page 78).

killerbot
14-05-2010, 14:56
yeah, unfortunatly if a command model is not on the front they do nothing. so as i belive they dont gain the +1 from banner or get musician bonuses. where as if they had kept a vampire on their 2nd rank then it cannot be the general of the army.

ZAlpha
14-05-2010, 15:30
Well, thanks guys.

Obviously, the VC player didn't need any bonuses from the command models. He simply just want the unit to stay under control and not frenzied charging at random stuffs.

So I suppose it's some good tactics (expensive as well) to prevent Blood Knights chraging at something.

Cheers,
ZAlpha

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2010, 15:48
Well other people use Dire Wolves for that purpose. -.-

ZAlpha
14-05-2010, 17:15
Well other people use Dire Wolves for that purpose. -.-

Haha, that's right.

Just another question, if the unit of frenzied troops was joined by characters. And the characters filled up all the front rank, does the unit still Immune to Psychology (from being Frenzied)? It's kinda silly, but... just wondering.

Cheers,
ZAlpha

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2010, 17:21
Of course. It did never lose frenzy. It just can't see anything. I suppose that's what they call blind fury.

danny-d-b
14-05-2010, 17:29
I don't know why you would do this though- after all your never going to get the 2nd rank of bloodknights in combat- you at might as well get the cheeper dogs

Sherlocko
14-05-2010, 17:58
So I suppose it's some good tactics (expensive as well) to prevent Blood Knights chraging at something.


But they donīt do anything with this tactic. :P If you donīt include them in the army list they still wonīt charge anything but at least then you can play with the points on units wich actually do something. :P

Artinam
14-05-2010, 18:41
I would like to point out that Bretonnians in lance formation are an exception to the Command models in the second do nothing case.
Their Lance Formation rules describe that in contrast to normal rules their command will always work no matter in which rank.

ZAlpha
14-05-2010, 20:18
@ULF - Thanks for your answer. :cool:



I don't know why you would do this though- after all your never going to get the 2nd rank of bloodknights in combat- you at might as well get the cheeper dogs

I suppose it's for just a fun game (and wierd too). I don't expect any people to do this either. :)

What the VC player did in the game was (well, we played 2-2) put all his points in this particular unit, and prevent it from being charged by sommoning up tons of zombies.

Yes, the unit didn't kill any thing, but he didn't lose any points in that game either. Afterall, it's the HE player who got killed by the opposing team.

It was a strange but fun game, at least. Seriously.


@Artinam - Thanks, I'm well aware of that, as I got killed by those Lance Formation always. (I hate those lance formation) :shifty:


Cheers,
ZAlpha

Greyfire
14-05-2010, 22:24
He simply just want the unit to stay under control and not frenzied charging at random stuffs.
How does having the front of a frenzied unit being filled with non-frenzied characters prevent the frenzied unit from being forced to declare a charge? I haven't heard of that one before.

I've never had anyone try to say that it has to be a model with frenzy that triggers the required charge.

So how does that one work? Thanks for helping me to understand.

-=- Steve

TheDarkDaff
14-05-2010, 22:30
You guys need to reread the BRB a bit more (pgs 52, 72-74 & 78. The Unit has frenzy regardless of who is in the front rank and who can actually see and so must charge as per the frenzy rules. Remember that Character's that join units are considered to be part of the unit and the Unit's LoS is worked out from the front models (in a ranked unit at least).

T10
16-05-2010, 14:33
yeah, unfortunatly if a command model is not on the front they do nothing. so as i belive they dont gain the +1 from banner or get musician bonuses. where as if they had kept a vampire on their 2nd rank then it cannot be the general of the army.

This is correct.

p. 80, Combat Result Bonus: "A unit that has a standard bearer in its front rank ..."
p. 81, Drawn Combats : "If a unit of troops has a musician in its front rank ..."
p. 81, Rally Bonus: "If a fleeing unit includes a musician, ..."

-T10

rtunian
16-05-2010, 14:58
You guys need to reread the BRB a bit more (pgs 52, 72-74 & 78. The Unit has frenzy regardless of who is in the front rank and who can actually see and so must charge as per the frenzy rules. Remember that Character's that join units are considered to be part of the unit and the Unit's LoS is worked out from the front models (in a ranked unit at least).

if you had read the rules for characters & psychology on p.78, which you refer people to, you would have seen...



a character does not go into a frenzy just because he is with a unit that can do so

and you must have missed the rules for line of sight...



troops, either friendly or unfriendly block line of sight. because of this, normally only models in the front rank of a unit are able to shoot, as those behind will not be able to see pas their friends.

if the entire front rank is comprised of non-frenzied characters, then there are no frenzied models in the unit that have line of sight.



measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops (ie, within the unit's charge move and in their normal arc of sight)

again, the characters are not frenzied troops. no frenzied troops can draw line of sight if the entire front rank is non-frenzied.

here you might counter "aha, it says the unit's normal arc of sight!", but you forget, that from the brb's perspective, it is not normal for a character to be in a unit, and especially not for the front rank to be comprised of characters. how do i know what "normal" is?



characters normally move and fight on their own

the brb tells me what normal is for characters. if it's normal for characters to be on their own, then it's not normal for units to have characters in them, and it's definitely not normal for frenzied units to have nonfrenzied characters comprising their entire front rank.

you know that the frenzy doesn't carry over to the characters & make them frenzied. you know that frenzy relies on line of sight. you know that all frenzied models have no line of sight. if you have to have line of sight for your special rule to take effect, and you don't have line of sight, then your special rule doesn't take effect.

EldarBishop
16-05-2010, 15:02
Page ref for the Bret Lance w/cmd models... Brettonian armybook, pg 40 (Std and Mus operate as normal even if not in the front rank)


You guys need to reread the BRB a bit more (pgs 52, 72-74 & 78. The Unit has frenzy regardless of who is in the front rank and who can actually see and so must charge as per the frenzy rules. Remember that Character's that join units are considered to be part of the unit and the Unit's LoS is worked out from the front models (in a ranked unit at least).

Yes, this looks right. The unit should still be bound by the frenzy rules, and thus be required to charge if in range.

GodlessM
16-05-2010, 15:03
Well, thanks guys.

Obviously, the VC player didn't need any bonuses from the command models. He simply just want the unit to stay under control and not frenzied charging at random stuffs.

So I suppose it's some good tactics (expensive as well) to prevent Blood Knights chraging at something.

Cheers,
ZAlpha

On the contrary, since the Blood Knights them selves weren't actually ding anything, he should have just taken 5 Black Knights with shields, for the same effect bt much less points (unless I'm missing something here).

AMWOOD co
16-05-2010, 20:44
I'm apparantly missing something. The rules on p 52 describing Frenzy and the forced charge refer to the unit as a whole rather than individual models. So what does it matter that the front rank is full of non-Frenzying characters? Do the characters make up the unit's line of sight? Yes. Therefore, the unit must charge anything within charge reach. Characters have joined a frenzying unit and must therefore make any charges/pursuits that the Frenzying unit must make.

TheDarkDaff
16-05-2010, 22:46
if you had read the rules for characters & psychology on p.78, which you refer people to, you would have seen...

Originally Posted by brb, characters, characters & psychology, frenzy/hatred, p.78
a character does not go into a frenzy just because he is with a unit that can do soI didn't claim this anywhere.


and you must have missed the rules for line of sight...

Originally Posted by brb, units, line of sight, interposing models, p.9
troops, either friendly or unfriendly block line of sight. because of this, normally only models in the front rank of a unit are able to shoot, as those behind will not be able to see pas their friends.
No, i actually read them all instead and applied them all


if one model from your unit can see at least one model from an enemy unit, that enemy unit is said to be 'in sight' of your unitIt is worth noting here that the LoS rules in the shooting section override this (in fact your quote nicely cut to remove the the bit where it basically says "THIS IS FOR SHOOTING PURPOSES". the Magic rules also refer directly to the shooting rules for LoS.

Now if you want to take your arguement to it's full extent, if you could block the LoS of a single character in that unit it could never charge. This is just absurd.


if the entire front rank is comprised of non-frenzied characters, then there are no frenzied models in the unit that have line of sight.

Originally Posted by brb, psychology, frenzy, p.52
measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops (ie, within the unit's charge move and in their normal arc of sight)

again, the characters are not frenzied troops. no frenzied troops can draw line of sight if the entire front rank is non-frenzied.

here you might counter "aha, it says the unit's normal arc of sight!", but you forget, that from the brb's perspective, it is not normal for a character to be in a unit, and especially not for the front rank to be comprised of characters. how do i know what "normal" is?

Originally Posted by brb, characters, characters & units, joining & leaving units, p.92
characters normally move and fight on their own

the brb tells me what normal is for characters. if it's normal for characters to be on their own, then it's not normal for units to have characters in them, and it's definitely not normal for frenzied units to have nonfrenzied characters comprising their entire front rank.The BRB(i'm assuming your quote is from pg72, not pg92 which is about Stonethrowers) also tells us that when a character joins a unit he becomes part of it in all respects (including the unit's LoS) if you keep reading that same paragraph to the end.


you know that the frenzy doesn't carry over to the characters & make them frenzied. you know that frenzy relies on line of sight. you know that all frenzied models have no line of sight. if you have to have line of sight for your special rule to take effect, and you don't have line of sight, then your special rule doesn't take effect.I have never suggested the character's gain frenzy, i have shown that LoS is determined for the unit with some exceptions to the norm (ie shooting and magic). The frenzy rules are also a bit shaky as they use the term "troops", which in the context it is used would be interchangable with unit. For it to be concrete that the frenzied models have to have individual LoS it would have to use the word "models" and also override the BRB pg8 assertion of unit level LoS (like shooting and magic do).

xragg
16-05-2010, 23:02
where as if they had kept a vampire on their 2nd rank then it cannot be the general of the army.

He can still be general, just loses most of the benefits of it. I think thats what you probably meant though.

@ the original question, the unit is still frenzied. I agree with the couple last posts that the unit still must declare as frenzied rules. To bad the BRB decides to use the term troops instead of unit to muddy the waters.

rtunian
16-05-2010, 23:34
sigh. well you can say "i never suggested the character gained frenzy!!" until you're blue in the face. doesn't change the fact that you are essentially arguing that the frenzy carries over onto the characters.

frenzy by its rules as i quoted requires line of sight from frenzied troops. period. end of story. a frenzied troop must have line of sight in order for it to charge. if no frenzied troops have line of sight to anything, then their frenzy doesn't kick in. that you don't understand how the line of sight rules work is not my fault or my problem, but the rules for line of sight are very clear (and cited in this thread): only the front rank of a unit can draw line of sight except to units on hills or large targets, or when on a hill.

xragg
16-05-2010, 23:40
rtunian-look at pg 8. --In general (with the notable exception of the shooting phase), if one model in your unit can see at least one model from an enemy unit, that enemy is said to be "in sight" of your unit.--

killerbot
17-05-2010, 11:29
The rules on p 52 describing Frenzy and the forced charge refer to the unit as a whole rather than individual models. So what does it matter that the front rank is full of non-Frenzying characters? Do the characters make up the unit's line of sight? Yes. Therefore, the unit must charge anything within charge reach. Characters have joined a frenzying unit and must therefore make any charges/pursuits that the Frenzying unit must make.

i completely agree....that makes sence. why are people arguing over this when it clearly says in the book? or am i also missing something?

rtunian
17-05-2010, 13:25
rtunian-look at pg 8. --In general (with the notable exception of the shooting phase), if one model in your unit can see at least one model from an enemy unit, that enemy is said to be "in sight" of your unit.--

xragg read post #17.

the rules for line of sight, the rules for frenzy, all of these rules under discussion do not take into account characters. characters, per the rule book, "normally move and fight on their own". because of this, the normal rules for units do NOT account for characters in the unit. they simply must not, because that would contradict the normalcy of characters being on their own.

this is not "normal" with regards to how people normally play, because people almost always put their chars in units. this is normal with regards to how the rule book lays out the rules. there is a monumental difference between the two. as far as the rule book is concerned, all of the rules for units movement shooting, combat, and general psychology etc, do not account for characters that may or may not be conjoined to them.

what you are saying xragg is that the frenzy of the blind guys in the back rows overrides the non-frenzy of all the models who have line of sight. you are effectively contradicting the line "just because a character joins a frenzied unit, he does not go into a frenzy!" remember, this isn't just 1 character surrounded by frenzied models. this is the ENTIRE FRONT RANK. only non-frenzied models have line of sight to anything that isn't large or on a hill.

line of sight is what triggers frenzy. the frenzy rules specify that it must be line of sight to frenzied troops and the character rules specify that non-frenzied characters are not considered frenzied if in a frenzied unit. thus if a frenzied unit has non-frenzied characters in its entire front row, no frenzied troops can draw line of sight to anything that isn't large or on a hill.

what? is? so? hard? about? this?

L1qw1d
17-05-2010, 14:15
I think it's important to note: A character is considered semi-separate. Like the Champion, it can be CHALLENGED. If it carries the Banner, said banner affects all of the Unit. For purposes of resolutions, however, it counts as part of the unit strength.

Since we're using BRB a lot, lets examine the specifics of the paragraph on page 72: Joining a Unit is handled in Movement Phase, though if they are touching after a charge, the Char can join- he then bumps a COMMAND(or previous character!) unit into second rank- it specifically notes that all characters and command that start with the unit START in the front rank.

The last sentence of p. 72 is specific: He BECOMES part of that unit until he decides to leave it- Just about anything else mentioned for this is how much Movement it costs to reorganise your ranks.

Pg 73 notes something interesting- the character does NOTHING out of the ordinary (this goes BEYOND not using items) unless the attack comes from wherever they will touch the base of the enemy model (eg: if you have a Sorceress in Second File, and First file gets blown away in the charge? She can cast BUT ONLY AT THAT SIDE).

But the main issue becomes page 78 under Frenzy- Unless the CHARACTER has Frenzy, he's not AFFECTED by Frenzy- but must charge with them. So, basically, the Character buggers everything up.

Is he part of the unit? Yes. Therefore, his edge CAN be used for LoS.
Can he stop their pursuing charge? No, he goes with them. It sucks to be him.
Is HE Frenzied and get ANY Frenzy Bonus? Nope. Again, sucks to be him.

In fact, nothing is noted until the Movement phase (about moving people around in your Unit), or the fact that he CANNOT leave in Close Combat. If you won combat and ended up pursuing for Frenzy, you're SOL.

So basically, you've put him in the front rank and are dragging him along until you can get out of CC, which...sucks if you're pursuing lol.

I'd say beyond THAT? Roll a die against your opponent, highest gets to dictate it for that game.

ZAlpha
17-05-2010, 15:40
i completely agree....that makes sence. why are people arguing over this when it clearly says in the book? or am i also missing something?

Well, as we're not native speakers. We sometimes find it hard on rules interpretation. It may be clear for you as it's written that way.

However, I read it and saw it as rtunian has pointed out. Not trying to judge what's right and wrong here, but I just want to know how most people would interpret it. There are many occasions where poeple plays differently depending on how they interpret the rules. And I just want to know how you guys would do in this case.

Thanks for all of you guys who posted their opinion(s) on this matter. :)

Cheers,
ZAlpha

xragg
17-05-2010, 16:29
The whole unit has line of sight. The only exception to this is during the shooting phase and any section that references the shooting phase for line of sight. You dont draw line of sight model-to-model to see if each single model has line of sight. Only in one section does it describe to do that, the shooting phase. If one model can see one enemy model, every model in the unit is considered to be in line of sight. No where in the character section does it overide this, only in the shooting section. You really need to show a rule stating characters somehow override this rule.


By your reasoning, these examples would be true.
(units facing up)

e.\./.e.......e.....\./......e\...../...
CCxCC.......CCCCx........Cxxxx....
.xxxxx........xxxxx.........xxxxx....
.xxxxx........xxxxx.........xxxxx....
.xxxxx........xxxxx.........xxxxx....

e-enemy, C-character, x-frenzy model, \./-line of sight
In none these examples, no units would have to charge by your reasoning.

Ultimate Life Form
17-05-2010, 16:38
This is yet another religious war and I tend to hold back in such situations; however I think it is futile arguing details when we'll have an entirely new ruleset in 8 weeks time.

stiggie
17-05-2010, 17:39
lol @ big issue over worst fantasy tactic in the universe :D.

i dont need a rule book to prove all this..

the dark daff and whoever on his side are right..

1) a unit cannot block LoS from itself
2) the people who are arguing that if they have frenzy its been conferred... thats irrelevant to the argument lol.. everybody here knows that.
3) the characters arent frenzied but they are part of the unit and the unit is frenzied so you follow all rules for frenzy u just measure from the front of the unit WHICH HAPPENS TO BE the characters.. they dont get extra attacks or anything.

im sure people on this forum lose brain cells more n more often :D

Ultimate Life Form
17-05-2010, 18:54
im sure people on this forum lose brain cells more n more often :D

As indicated by excessive use of 'lol'.

rtunian
18-05-2010, 11:53
i dont need a rule book to prove all this..

can we please get more of this? this is just what the rules forum needs. more people who don't need the rule book to prove they're right. who needs rules citations and logic when you can just glance at a situation and know?





:rolleyes:

Greyfire
18-05-2010, 13:18
rtunian, are you suggesting that the unit can't "see" through the characters in the front rank? And that this prevents the frenzy charge from occurring? If you are, I'd have to ask you to extend that same logic to normal charges, too. The characters can charge out of the unit (as ruled in the book) but the unit can't charge since they don't have LOS. If there's no LOS for a frenzied charge then there's no LOS for a normal charge.

This contradiction leave me confused.

T10
18-05-2010, 13:30
Actually, the models in the first rank block the line of sight of the models in the second rank. That is why only models in the first rank of units of missile troops get to shoot.

It is a moot point, however. The unit can declare a charge if one or more models can draw line of sight to the enemy. This is sufficient to compel a frenzied unit to charge.

-T10

rtunian
18-05-2010, 13:54
rtunian, are you suggesting that the unit can't "see" through the characters in the front rank? And that this prevents the frenzy charge from occurring? If you are, I'd have to ask you to extend that same logic to normal charges, too. The characters can charge out of the unit (as ruled in the book) but the unit can't charge since they don't have LOS. If there's no LOS for a frenzied charge then there's no LOS for a normal charge.

This contradiction leave me confused.

greyfire it's not a contradiction. the frenzy rules stipulate that line of sight be drawn to frenzied troops. non-frenzied characters are not frenzied troops. i am saying that for frenzy rule saying you must charge to be triggered, you must draw line of sight to a frenzied model, just as the brb says you must.

a regular charge needs line of sight to any model in the unit. do you see the difference? one stipulates line of sight to a frenzied model, and the other stipulates line of sight to any model.

Greyfire
18-05-2010, 14:10
Thanks, rtunian. That nicely clears the discussion up for me. You're saying a frenzy charge has special LOS rules. I can see both sides of this then, and fear that a general consensus won't be reached here. I'll admit to never seeing anyone use that interpretation in our local games, but I'll have to also say I've never seen anyone fill up the front rank with heroes. Situations like the diagrams that xragg posted have happened and we've always gone off of unit LOS for the frenzied effect. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just what we've always done.

Milgram
18-05-2010, 14:33
well, we can reduce the scenario to a single vampire as the outmost left model in a single rank unit of blood knights. now we get a fine example where only the vampire might be seeing the opponent and not the other knights.

personally I would not force the blood knights to charge then. especially since the opponent had moved in the exact spot where the blood knights can't see him - and we always allow to check for line of sight, so he exactly knew where he positioned the bait.

another question that comes to my mind (one that I would answer with a loud NO!): A goblin character is on the front corner of a unit of savage orcs. does the orc behind him see 'past' him, since his base is smaller?



----- ----
! O ! !G ! ----
! ! ---- !E !
----- ----
----- -----
! O ! ! O !
! ! ! !
----- -----


(O being 25mm orcs, G 20mm goblin, E an enemy)

shadow hunter
18-05-2010, 16:09
But the main issue becomes page 78 under Frenzy- Unless the CHARACTER has Frenzy, he's not AFFECTED by Frenzy- but must charge with them

I dont have my rule book at work, but this is what I roughly remembered. A character has no choice in wether a frenzied unit charges or not. As a part of the unit, he is 'dragged' along with them in their bloodlust (or whatever). And as a part of the unit LOS can be taken from his position.

Milgram
18-05-2010, 16:31
ok, since everybody refuses to use the BRB, I take it one step further and argue from a fluff point of view:

If I were a leader within a frenzied mob, then I would like to bring it under some kind of control. hence tell them that there is an enemy that they cannot see is the last thing I would do.

TheDarkDaff
18-05-2010, 23:25
greyfire it's not a contradiction. the frenzy rules stipulate that line of sight be drawn to frenzied troops. non-frenzied characters are not frenzied troops. i am saying that for frenzy rule saying you must charge to be triggered, you must draw line of sight to a frenzied model, just as the brb says you must.
This is where we disagree. The term "frenzied troops" refers to the unit as a whole and not to individual frenzied models within the unit. The entire unit is considered to be "frenzied troops" so if any of the unit can see an enemy model (regardless if they are personally frenzied or not) the unit has to charge. The only way that you could say you have to use the actual LoS of frenzied models is if the BRB used the term "models" in the place of "troops".

To extend your arguement to it's logical conclusion what happens with a Death Hag in a unit of Witch elves if only the Death Hag can see the enemy unit. Both are frenzied but according to your arguement, the Hag would charge out on her own.

a regular charge needs line of sight to any model in the unit. do you see the difference? one stipulates line of sight to a frenzied model, and the other stipulates line of sight to any model.

I diagree. The frenzy rule only require LoS to a unit with frenzy, not specific models. The term "troops" does not equal "models" in this case but "units" instead (which characters become part of when they join).

rtunian
19-05-2010, 00:30
This is where we disagree. The term "frenzied troops" refers to the unit as a whole and not to individual frenzied models within the unit. The entire unit is considered to be "frenzied troops" so if any of the unit can see an enemy model (regardless if they are personally frenzied or not) the unit has to charge. The only way that you could say you have to use the actual LoS of frenzied models is if the BRB used the term "models" in the place of "troops".

the paragraphs in the frenzy rules use all three of the following terms to refer to units affected by frenzy: frenzied models, frenzied troops, and frenzied unit. all three of these terms are used to describe the same situation. again, any way you slice it, it says the line of sight is to frenzied troops, and the character rules are very clear that a character doesn't go into a frenzy just because he joins a unit of frenzied troops.

the character rules even say that if the unit sees something and charges, that he has to go with. beyond directly stating that the characters aren't frenzied, it implies that the line of sight of frenzied troops can cause him to be carried along. thus, if no frenzied troops have line of sight... and here is where the record picks up again. so no need to rehash, i'll just move on to the next counterpoint~


To extend your arguement to it's logical conclusion what happens with a Death Hag in a unit of Witch elves if only the Death Hag can see the enemy unit. Both are frenzied but according to your arguement, the Hag would charge out on her own.

such suerior positioning could not be realistically reached if the death hag is the only character in the unit. what's ironic is that though you champion logic, you fail to fully consider whether the situation you posit is even realistically possible... classic mistake.

but i will humor you anyway: if the character was on a larger base, an individual model with a smaller base could get into such a position, where it would be in line of sight of just the char and not the rest of the unit, triggering only the char's frenzy. for example, a khorne lord on juggernaut is on a 50mm base. so a model on a 25mm or a 20mm base, that is on its own (and not in a unit) will be able to get in the space between the edge of the char's line of sight and the 1 adjacent model in the front rank. there must only be 1, because 1 on each side will have crossing los, and there will be no zone that only affects the char.

this would be very difficult to accomplish, and it would be equally difficult to prove, unless we're talking 2 very disparate base sizes and a reasonable distance, and also tools to measure the angles. in the end, such manouevering is within the rules but probably abusive of them. why? we are talking about proving the line of sight between 2 adjacent models in a game where one of the first rules is "sometimes movement will be somewhat imprecise. that's okay" (see page 11, bottom left paragraph)

edit: in other words, in my opinion trying to pull such a move would probably be unsportsmanlike, unless you and your opponent are both very meticulous in movement. besides, your opponent has to agree to your move when it's a close call like that (again, see page 11).

xragg
19-05-2010, 02:46
Something that bothers me is you keep using the term "triggered", almost as if you are playing a game of MagicTG. Where are you seeing that frenzy is something you trigger? A unit is either frenzied or not frenzied. Irregardless, I am going to accept your reasoning and see how it effects the game.

For the unit of frenzied blood knights with a front rank of non-frenzied heros.

1. Declare charges phase. All non-Frenzied troops declare charges.
--For our unit, one or more of the heros could declare a charge, but the unit cannot since it is frenzied, it must wait till when frenzied units act.

2. After all non-Frenzied troops have declared their charges, measure to see if any enemies are in charge reach of any Frenzied troops.
--Now is the time that our frenzied blood knights check to see if they must declare a charge or not. This determination is probably your "trigger", even though the unit is still frenzied no matter the results of the "trigger". Alright, since no blood knight models are in the front rank, none of them have line of sight. Therefore, the blood knights cant declare a charge.

3. Declare charges phase ends.

So, using your argument, a unit like this can never charge another unit (other then magic).

TheDarkDaff
19-05-2010, 04:10
the paragraphs in the frenzy rules use all three of the following terms to refer to units affected by frenzy: frenzied models, frenzied troops, and frenzied unit. all three of these terms are used to describe the same situation. again, any way you slice it, it says the line of sight is to frenzied troops, and the character rules are very clear that a character doesn't go into a frenzy just because he joins a unit of frenzied troops. They actually refer to 2 very different things. Frenzied Models refers directly to the frenzied models where as frenzied units and frenzied troops are used to refer to the unit as a whole. And once again i am not and have never argued that the character gains frenzy, but the unit is still considered to be frenzied. The rule on pg78 are very clear that the character will not get any bonuses because of the unit he has joined.


the character rules even say that if the unit sees something and charges, that he has to go with. beyond directly stating that the characters aren't frenzied, it implies that the line of sight of frenzied troops can cause him to be carried along. thus, if no frenzied troops have line of sight... and here is where the record picks up again. so no need to rehash, i'll just move on to the next counterpoint~You need to combine it with the rule on pg78, he is considered to be part of the unit in all respects. That specifically means he is part of the unit for determining the units LoS with the noted exceptions of magic and shooting. The bit you are refering to simply states that he has to move with the unit and can stop the unit charging or pursueing




such suerior positioning could not be realistically reached if the death hag is the only character in the unit. what's ironic is that though you champion logic, you fail to fully consider whether the situation you posit is even realistically possible... classic mistake.I've done it a few times by placing the Death hag on the corner of the unit and screening it with Warriors so the Hag can peep around the screen. It is actually incredibly easy to do (it's even easier if you use Harpies or shades to provide the screen) or if you attach a Death Hag to Shades were she can sit on the end. It can even happen if you can get to an edge of the unit as there is a 20mm gap to the front that only the corner placed Death Hag can see.


but i will humor you anyway: if the character was on a larger base, an individual model with a smaller base could get into such a position, where it would be in line of sight of just the char and not the rest of the unit, triggering only the char's frenzy. for example, a khorne lord on juggernaut is on a 50mm base. so a model on a 25mm or a 20mm base, that is on its own (and not in a unit) will be able to get in the space between the edge of the char's line of sight and the 1 adjacent model in the front rank. there must only be 1, because 1 on each side will have crossing los, and there will be no zone that only affects the char.The Char doesn't have to be on a larger base, you just have to show 5mm of your base into that 20mm field of vision the Hag would have.


this would be very difficult to accomplish, and it would be equally difficult to prove, unless we're talking 2 very disparate base sizes and a reasonable distance, and also tools to measure the angles. in the end, such manouevering is within the rules but probably abusive of them. why? we are talking about proving the line of sight between 2 adjacent models in a game where one of the first rules is "sometimes movement will be somewhat imprecise. that's okay" (see page 11, bottom left paragraph)The bases are square. To measure the angle you just have to hold your tape measure from corner to corner of the base. The bit about agreeing before hand is just a suggestion:


It is recommended that where a move is especially important or an exact measurement is critical, it is good practice to agree what you are doing with your opponent before moving troops.All that says to do is tell your opponent what you are doing before you do it so they understand what is happening.


edit: in other words, in my opinion trying to pull such a move would probably be unsportsmanlike, unless you and your opponent are both very meticulous in movement. besides, your opponent has to agree to your move when it's a close call like that (again, see page 11).
Your opponent doesn't have to agree with your move at all, just that you are trying to do it. In all honesty it would have to be a competitive tournament for me to even try anything like this at all.



So, using your argument, a unit like this can never charge another unit (other then magic).Didn't even notice that until you pointed it out, although the Characters could still declare to charge out on their own.

Milgram
19-05-2010, 06:20
Something that bothers me is you keep using the term "triggered", almost as if you are playing a game of MagicTG.

seriously, half of all rules discussions would be gone if there were 'triggers' and 'stacks' in warhammer...

rtunian
19-05-2010, 11:58
So, using your argument, a unit like this can never charge another unit (other then magic).

bingo! doesn't seem like such a good idea to put 5 characters in 1 unit anymore, does it? actually, it never should have seemed like a good idea...



They actually refer to 2 very different things. Frenzied Models refers directly to the frenzied models where as frenzied units and frenzied troops are used to refer to the unit as a whole. And once again i am not and have never argued that the character gains frenzy, but the unit is still considered to be frenzied. The rule on pg78 are very clear that the character will not get any bonuses because of the unit he has joined.

incorrect. the terms are used interchangeably. as evidenced by the following adjacent sentences:



frenzied models must pursue fleeing enemy whether the player wants them to or not. unlike other troops, they may not attempt to hold back


You need to combine it with the rule on pg78, he is considered to be part of the unit in all respects. That specifically means he is part of the unit for determining the units LoS with the noted exceptions of magic and shooting. The bit you are refering to simply states that he has to move with the unit and can stop the unit charging or pursueing

the "part of the unit in all respects" is not strictly a true statement. yes, i know it is in the book, but it is not true. the character does not become like the unit in AT LEAST the following respects: victory points, excess wound carry-over, can leave the unit, can change place freely within the unit, and perhaps most importantly, retains own profile instead of using unit's profile. so, if there are at least 5 ways in which the rule is inherently false, then the rule isn't sturdy enough to base any argument on, in my opinion.

edit: actually, that paragraph does list the respects in which the character is considered part of the unit. i thought it didn't, but it does: it says...



that means that if the unit flees, he must flee along with them at the same speed; if the unit pursues, he must pursue with them as well; if the unit declares a charge, he must charge as part of it

so you see, it does list the ways in which a character is considered part of the unit after all. and would you look at that, line of sight is not one of those ways listed~ :edit


I've done it a few times by placing the Death hag on the corner of the unit and screening it with Warriors so the Hag can peep around the screen. It is actually incredibly easy to do (it's even easier if you use Harpies or shades to provide the screen) or if you attach a Death Hag to Shades were she can sit on the end. It can even happen if you can get to an edge of the unit as there is a 20mm gap to the front that only the corner placed Death Hag can see.

The Char doesn't have to be on a larger base, you just have to show 5mm of your base into that 20mm field of vision the Hag would have.

as i said before, you are going to try and argue that a model is in the line of sight of 1 model but not in the line of sight of the model right next to it, you are playing dangerously close to against the spirit of the rules.


The bases are square. To measure the angle you just have to hold your tape measure from corner to corner of the base.
your hand is not a precise measuring instrument. your hand cannot reliably measure a 45 degree angle.


The bit about agreeing before hand is just a suggestion:

All that says to do is tell your opponent what you are doing before you do it so they understand what is happening.

no, actually the words in the book are "it is good practice to agree what you are doing with your opponent before moving troops". this is because your opponent can contest any move of yours, and can bring it to a roll-off if they disagree that your move is legal.