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View Full Version : VC question: Spirit Host or Cairn Wraith?



vinush
14-05-2010, 22:15
Ok, as the title suggests, which is the better option of the two units? And why?

THE \/ince

Amlesh
14-05-2010, 22:30
You're comparing apples to oranges. Both have their roles. I love my Spirit Hosts as ethereal detachments and screens for my blocks, but Wraiths are great as a hammer unit.

Witchblade
14-05-2010, 22:45
I don't really see a reason to buy spirit hosts over wraiths, game-wise, fluff-wise or model-wise.

Maybe if you're out of rare slots and desperately want ethereals...

ftayl5
14-05-2010, 22:53
Yeah, you really can't compare 2 units in different slots, costing different points, on a different base size with a completely different role in the game.

Spirit hosts are good tarpits as most things can't hit them. But don't expect them to do much back. Their a great screen (again for ethereality)

Wraiths are completely different; they can fight, cause terror, can have the only shooting attack in the army and make a great flanking unit

willowdark
14-05-2010, 23:12
You're comparing apples to oranges. Both have their roles. I love my Spirit Hosts as ethereal detachments and screens for my blocks, but Wraiths are great as a hammer unit.

Apples and oranges have enough similarities and differences to effectively compare and contrast them.

Apple and machineguns on the other hand...

... or apples and dog ****...

Cairn Wraiths have 360 LoS and strength 5.

vinush
15-05-2010, 12:18
Ok, let me clarify.

what I mean is, in 1000 points, which unit is preferrable?

Points wise, I could fit 3 spirit host bases or 3 cairn wraiths including a banshee, but I was wondering what would be the better option of the two to take.

THE \/ince

Desert Rain
15-05-2010, 13:32
What does the rest of your army look like?
It's hard to give you suggestions without knowing that.

vinush
15-05-2010, 13:38
Battle report log here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257969

But to sum it up, it is as follows:

Vampire with LoD, AoD (HW & Shield), Tomb Blade
Necro with 2 spells

19 Skellies, full command
19 Skellies, full command
6 Dire wolves
6 Black Knights, barding, full command
3 Cairn Wraiths (One upgraded to Banshee)

I could swap out the CW's for a spirit host by dropping the barding off the BK's.

THE \/ince

Lord Dan
15-05-2010, 13:39
Actually I'd say it doesn't matter. At 1,000 points you shouldn't have any points left to afford comparatively expensive ethereal units.

vinush
15-05-2010, 13:45
Care to elaborate Dan?

THE \/ince

Desert Rain
15-05-2010, 13:53
In that list I would keep the wraiths to watch one of your flanks.

Lord Dan
15-05-2010, 15:05
Personally I think wraiths are far too expensive and far too situational to be of much use in games less than 2,000 points. In your list, for instance, I would drop them for a corpse cart with the lodestone and another 5 dire wolves.

Just wait until higher point games when you can take both spirit hosts AND wraiths. Then you can run them together and roll entire flanks.

some_scrub
15-05-2010, 17:49
I run a similar list in 1k and I think the wraiths are very effective. They are a big liability against daemons, but they're definitely worth it in every other match up. (Try comparing that wraith unit to a varghulf. I don't think the varghulf has many advantages.)

Wraiths certainly have more uses than spirit hosts and are better at most things than spirit hosts. Just be careful with a minimum sized unit because those 6 S5 attacks just won't get it sometimes. If you can find a way to fit in another wraith, that would make a big difference.

Dan, I disagree on the cart plus the lodestone - it's going to get you maybe 4 extra skeletons over the course of the game. It's not much cheaper than just buying extra skeletons to start with, and the cart doesn't add too much else - the ASF spell is rarely relevant: if it would be good it just eats a DD on the turn it would matter. And it's not that helpful in combat either.

Gaargod
16-05-2010, 01:00
Wraiths are hit and miss. Some armies can do nothing against them - skelies in the front + wraiths = dead unit. They also make rather spiffy shields against unmagical shooting - being skirmishers, even 3 of them can obscure a unit.

Others... well others point out the fact they are T3 unarmoured models. Basic magic missiles will put the hurt on, as will magic weapon wielding heroes.


However, they will probably do you more in that list than spirit hosts will - at 1k, there's not much you need to tarpit in the first place, so having 2 hammers will work nicely.

Your loadout on the vamp though... that's a different matter. If he's meant to go in one of the skelly units, 4+ armour in combat will not cut it (heavy armour + shield, as no hand weapon + shield bonus with tomb blade). I'd suggest changing it to Avatar of Death (great weapon) and giving him the Flayed Hauberk, if you want a hero with some combat capability who won't fall over soon as something hard looks at him.

Lord Dan
16-05-2010, 06:37
Dan, I disagree on the cart plus the lodestone - it's going to get you maybe 4 extra skeletons over the course of the game. It's not much cheaper than just buying extra skeletons to start with, and the cart doesn't add too much else - the ASF spell is rarely relevant: if it would be good it just eats a DD on the turn it would matter. And it's not that helpful in combat either.

It's obvious we just advocate different list builds at low points. I prefer things that are safe, solid choices, giving up any real chance of them wowing me during the game. No, the corpse cart isn't going to wasting droves of infantry with 9 S5 great weapon attacks, but then it's never going to be hiding in a forest for fear of getting killed by a fireball or some daemons. What it will provide is a solid and consistent anchor for the center of my army every single game.

If a corpse cart is only giving you an extra 4 skeletons per game you're not casting invocation of nehek enough.

And though it's not really the main reason I advocate the corpse cart, the ASF spell is huge. It's not about S3 infantry getting to strike first, it's about your S5+ vampires striking first. Even more important than getting the spell off, it's just one more thing your opponent is forced to think about when choosing whether or not to dispel your mid-game invocation of neheks.

Rosstifer
16-05-2010, 12:26
Yeah I agree with Dan, and not just because Arnie is threatening....

The ASF is a very good reason to get a Corpse Cart, You can then give your Vamp a Great Weapon for that delicous STR 7 and not worry about going last. Wraiths annoy me, but I'm using my Doombull led Beastmen alot at the moment, LD 8 is not good for fear or terror tests!

vinush
16-05-2010, 16:37
That's all well and good, but i've not got any spare cash atm, and i have both the cairn wraiths and spirit hosts from before.

Thanks for the advice so far guys, and when i do manage to scrape together the spare cash i may invest in a corpse cart, but for now the original question stands.

THE \/ince

willowdark
17-05-2010, 16:35
The little I've pondered over the VC book, I've come to one conclusion. The Rare choices are purely a matter of preference. Each performs its own job, its own way. You just need to make your own judgement call about it, and that might take some time, but the best reason I can come up with _not_ to take CW is that you just want something else as your Rare.

The best reason I can come up with to take Spirit Hosts is if you have Black Knights. BK have Ethereal movement, but are still vulnerable to shooting. Having a dedicated ethereal unit to screen them could be very effective. Using terrain for cover is good, but you'll always need to expose yourself once to get the charge. Having that extra layer of interference between the enemy and your Knights could be really effective, especially if the enemy has his own redirectors in place to deflect your Knights. The SH will certainly be able to chase off your standard fast cav redirector.

Malorian
17-05-2010, 19:43
As long as I have the slots available I'll take wraiths every time.

TheMaster
19-05-2010, 07:56
"It's like comparing a dog to a black dog."
Quote from a test I did ages ago.

T10
19-05-2010, 10:54
As long as I have the slots available I'll take wraiths every time.

When do you not have the slots available? :)

-T10

Jagosaja
19-05-2010, 11:23
On 1000 point battles having a Banshee is priceless, and combine it with a skirmishing unit that delivers 9 S5 attacks and causes terror is amazing. If you are not facing Daemons or Wood Elves often, I'd say choose them, and you would also save barding as a bonus. As there are not many things around with high LD or ITP, they are great.

Don't neglect Spirit Hosts however. If your Black Knights do the killing job well and you want to bring enemy units to a halt, or even a part of the army, Hosts do the job better. Or if you are facing a lot of magic missiles, Wraiths tend to drop much faster then Hosts.

I say go test both and find which suits you better. But I'd prefer Wraiths, it has a much bigger psychological effect on your opponents as they are mostly very scared of the carnage they can perform. I'd even go as far as to say to drop the Banshee and find somewhere additional 25 points to purchase additional Wraith. A unit of 5 Wraiths is a game winner at 1000 points.

Dungeon_Lawyer
19-05-2010, 11:34
As long as I have the slots available I'll take wraiths every time.

yup:skull:

willowdark
19-05-2010, 16:02
There's also the argument to not take them because they're too good.

Now a Varghulf, that thing is just right, especially for 1k.