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Kayosiv
16-05-2010, 10:27
So a friend of mine came into an interesting argument today.

So a plague furnace is in a unit of plague monks. An engine of the gods uses it's ability to hit all units around it for d6 strength 4 attacks, and we hit a bit of an unknown.

Since the plague furnace is unit strength 5 or above (it is unit strength 7 with a priest riding it I believe) I can elect to shoot at it even though it is in a unit. However since it is IN the unit and I cannot control the shooting, do I hit it with the engine of the god's burning alignment? There's basically 3 scenarios.

The unit of plague monks is determined to be in range of burning alignment, or any such similar area effect spell such as rot glorious rot or clenching flare, and is thus hit. Do I...?

1. Hit the unit, ignoring the furnace unless it has less than 6 models and then randomize into the furnace, as shooting. Thus, the furnace is immune to impact hits and random uncontrollable shooting/spells until the unit is sufficiently depleted.

2. Hit the unit and the Furnace and determine damage done to each separately because the "Monstrous mount" is unit strength 5 or higher.

3. Choose which takes the hits, the unit of plague monks or the Furnace.

4. Or, the undecided way that I'm sure isn't correct, but who knows; randomize between the unit and the Furnace for all hits scored (this is what we ended up doing because we couldn't decide what to do).

This sort of situation applies to several instances like a Stegadon in a unit ridden by a character, Screaming Bells, Carnosaurs in units, and hit by sort of AoE spell that can't really be targeted. Just wondering how to handle this in the future.

Just to clarify, this question is more about how a spell hits "everything" so I can't aim it. I'm well aware I could pick the unit or the furnace if I was say, firing arrows at it.

Chaos Undecided
16-05-2010, 10:38
I'd be tempted to say that as long as both the unit of monks and the furnace itself are within the radius of the Burning Alignments affect then both would be hit and tweated as individual targets. Something that large cant hide in a unit, similarly if only the monks were in range then hits shouldnt be able to be passed onto the Furnace.

Not sure there is a precedence in the rules but that makes the most sense to me the current rulebook doesnt really go into how large scale area of affect weapons work afaik

Atrahasis
16-05-2010, 10:49
There is only one unit. Burning Alignment inflicts hits on units. One set of hits is therefore inflicted that cannot hit the Furnace.

Necromancy Black
16-05-2010, 15:15
Agreed with above. There is only one unit, the bell is not a separate unit, even though it may in some cases be targeted separately.

bcpease201
17-05-2010, 08:45
For my logic, I would say that you measure the distance for the Burning Alignment. If the unit of plague monks with PF is within distance then the unit is hit. Roll the D6 to determine the number of hits. I would then randomize this between the unit and the PF (another example would be a warmachine with crew BRB pg. 85). On a 1-4 the PF is hit, and on a 5 or 6 the plague monks are hit. Finally, the hits against the PF would have to be further randomized according to the shooting at the PF, which indicates to follow the rules for shooting at the Screaming Bell: 1-5 hits the furnace, and the Plague Priest is hit on a 6 (similar to what is explained in the BRB pg. 60 for shooting at monstrous mounts).
Hope this helps.

Atrahasis
17-05-2010, 08:51
Your logic is incompatible with the rules.

bcpease201
17-05-2010, 09:29
Your logic is incompatible with the rules.

How so? Care to explain further, so that I can play by the rules, at least while they're "still the rules" :p

Festus
17-05-2010, 10:05
Hi

it is already explained:
It is only one unit, so only one set of attacks...

Festus

Havock
17-05-2010, 10:29
Being a large target you can seperately target it with shooting/magic. However, to do so you must actively be able to target something. Seeing as the EotG simply targets all units within 2d6", you can't actively target something, it is simply an 'area of effect'.

So no.

The skinks are of course free to throw their javelins at it ;)

bcpease201
17-05-2010, 11:13
Hi

it is already explained:
It is only one unit, so only one set of attacks...

Festus

That is not the point in question, we know it is one unit. The ? is how are the D6 attacks distributed?

Atrahasis
17-05-2010, 11:17
As normal; characters and their mounts are not hit if they are accompanied by 5 or more rank and file.

bcpease201
17-05-2010, 22:04
As normal; characters and their mounts are not hit if they are accompanied by 5 or more rank and file.

Yes, that is true if the characater and his mount are less than Unit Strength 5. The PF and Plague Priest are Unit Strength 7, so this rule does not apply to it/them. Correct?

Atrahasis
17-05-2010, 22:11
No, incorrect.

US5 changes whether the character can be targeted separately. It does not change how hits against the unit are distributed.

bcpease201
17-05-2010, 23:28
Is the burning alignment considered a range attack?

hfb
18-05-2010, 06:16
I wouldn't consider it [Alignment] ranged. Nowhere in the rules specifies it as such IIRC. I like to think of it in my head as just a circular ring appearing from the earth, usually at the much maligned 2" minimum

As much as I'd like to hit both individually, I must agree -- just hits the unit once.

Greyfire
19-05-2010, 16:21
Is the burning alignment considered a range attack?
No more so than Comet. A comet won't harm the furnace most of the time either (like I'll ever succeed at reducing a 30 strong unit of Skaven to below 5).

bcpease201
21-05-2010, 09:29
Sorry to go on about this, but I just want to have a clear picture of this in my mind, so that I am playing correctly. On pg 110, under Spells Commentary it states, "When any spell inflicts a number of hits or wounds on a target unit, these are distributed in the same way as hits from normal shooting. Then on pg 74, under the heading Shooting, sub-heading Characters Inside Units. The 1st line reads, "If a Character is part of a unit that includes at least 5 rank-and-file models, he cannot be shot at." Yet, the following paragraph says, "If a character model (including his mount) has a US of 5 or more, then he can be picked out as a target regardless of the rules just given. Enemies may freely choose to either shoot at the character or the unit he has joined." So, with burning alignment, it would seem that you either choose to hit the unit OR the priest with PF. What is your opinion?

Necromancy Black
21-05-2010, 09:49
That is not distributing as per shooting. That is targeting. There is a difference here:
The rules for shooting let you target a US5 or higher model. The shots are then distributed as shooting against that model, meaning you randomise if it's on a monstrous mount, for example.
Burning Alignment and other spells don't have the same way for targeting, but the hits are distributed against the target the same way that shooting is.

So again, the rule you quote is talking about targeting, not distribution of shots.

Atrahasis
21-05-2010, 09:59
What he said. Targeting is not distribution - Alignment inflicts hits on the unit, which are distributed as shooting. BA does not target at all.