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immortal git
17-05-2010, 14:47
Right, my warriors list is having a monstrous feel, two units of chaos ogres and either a giant or a shaggoth.. your thoughts.

thanks - Stuart

Witchblade
17-05-2010, 15:28
Giant with MoS has distinct abilities and is really good against certain units. Stubborn Ld 10 is also awesome.

The shaggoth just sucks. He's good at killing hard stuff, but so is the giant usually and really hard things will kill the shaggoth.

Peregijn
17-05-2010, 17:30
well the shagoth does have a movement of seven witch is faster than the gaint. u KNOW what the shagoth will do in combat, where a gaint can be very unpredicteble. the shagoth has an armor save to protect him against mass bow fire

but than again... normal dragon ogres in a unit of 3 with greate wapons have more attacks ad the same strengt and are cheaper.

willowdark
17-05-2010, 18:10
Yes, but the Shaggoth is a single base with a free pivot, so will get to the flank more often.

Movement supremacy. That's the one reason you take a Shaggoth, because it can weave through units and terrain, and do it quickly.

Mullitron
17-05-2010, 19:14
Yes, but the Shaggoth is a single base with a free pivot, so will get to the flank more often.

Movement supremacy. That's the one reason you take a Shaggoth, because it can weave through units and terrain, and do it quickly.

Also because the model looks great!

immortal git
17-05-2010, 20:04
not same stregnth btw, shaggoth is s6 DO are s5, sooo shaggoth or giant..... giant can be effective but if you roll poorly itll just die, tbh, the shaggoth seems like a more reliable source of power, so on that notE, GW or THW?

Malorian
17-05-2010, 20:07
Always give him a great weapon.

Better in game and no conversion needed.

immortal git
17-05-2010, 20:33
allrighty!

Kayosiv
17-05-2010, 21:59
I don't know if I'd "always" give him a great weapon. An additional hand weapon is nice too, considering with strength 6 BASE, you're already wounding just about everything in the game on a 2 while ignoring just about all scaly skin and unmounted troops saves.

If you plan on charging iron breakers from the front, carving through knights, or getting into fights with equally huge monsters like dragons and stegadons, sure go for the great weapon, but most of the time it'll be overkill, plus I think an always strike first giant is WAY better at dealing with knights and big monsters anyway.

Malorian
17-05-2010, 22:34
It's not always about what you send your DOS after, it's also about what your opponent sends after it (other than cannon balls) and a great weapon will keep the super characters and monsters away, while at the same time it makes little difference against troops.

Makaber
17-05-2010, 23:15
The Shaggoth has done very well for me in the past.

Sure, you can look at the numbers and say "well yeah, but [whatever] does more damage and is cheaper!", but as others have mentioned, the Shaggoth is a lot more manouverable. The Shaggoths combination of enough hitting power, coupled with good speed and free pivot, means you can easily get it into positions where it is able to dictate the flow of the battle just by the sheer threat it poses. It very rarely "makes it points back" (which is a line of argumentation I really loathe, and really just says how little whomever uses it knows about Warhammer), but for me, it's always an asset and I very rarely regret taking one.

The only other unit that can do something similar is the Giant, so for me, the Ogres are out of the picture completely. The Giant is cheaper, frailer, and slightly slower, but can, of course, stall enemies for a long time. It is, however, very unreliable. In the end, I guess it boils down to how much you feel you need a dedicated outflanker. In either case, it's hard to go wrong with either.

(Oh, and as far as people saying "yeah, but they die to cannons": What doesn't, they're pretty easy to hide, and there's not that many cannons around anyway.)

willowdark
17-05-2010, 23:24
That giant special attack where combat automatically ends and you win by 2...

... sounds nice on paper, but if your rolling in there with a full compliment of Knight attacks and a banner you could miss out on a lot of CR, and that break test -2 is a lot easier to pass than the Insane Courage they should've needed. Especially if it's an ASF giant.

Shaggoth won't do that. For me that makes it the better support charger. But the Giant is still an amazing anvil.

logan054
17-05-2010, 23:29
I happen to like shaggoths, it certainly not the most competitive choice in the list however it will earn its points back when used against the right targets, strength 8 is a damn handy tool when it comes to dealing with high armour targets. When it comes to comparing it against dragon ogres aside the movement the other thing to bear in mind is terror over fear.

I think the one thing that got the shaggoth in my army was the model! come on, how cool is that thing!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
18-05-2010, 00:03
Yeah I would definitely go for a shaggoth over a giant, that manoeuvrability and reliability really gives it the edge. And GW is the way to go, you need it to be able to mash any unit it happens to come into contact with, and wounding dragons on 2s is always nice.

Nixon

shakedown47
18-05-2010, 03:22
My shaggoth whiffs out...a LOT. Still though, his maneuverability can't be beat and is his speed is probably that biggest advantage he has over the ASF Giant. That, and at 285 points your opponents will never cry "cheese!" when he hits the table. His single greatest asset, IMO, is that he pursues with 3 dice instead of 2.

Peregijn
18-05-2010, 08:49
i have to admit that i never took into account the free pivot and i didn't know he was S6 basic (i don't believe he was in the previous beastman book...).

and of course the model is awesome.

so it al comes down on the role you want your big mean monster to have.
the shagoth is probably 1 of the stronger can openers we have around and the giant has his stubborn ld 10 to hold down anything that doesn't kill him in one round

why not combine the 2? let the giant take a charge from big nasty monster killers and count charge with the shagoth to destroy them???

willowdark
18-05-2010, 13:14
I see where you're going with that, but I'd rather have the Hellcannon than the Giant.

Nocculum
18-05-2010, 18:29
If you have the points spare, you could always take an additional hand weapon and a great weapon?

Xzazzarai
18-05-2010, 21:23
They can be pretty nasty, but I think that they are a bit overpriced.

Mullitron
19-05-2010, 07:57
Well if the 8th edition rumors are true with the 'crush them' and 'destroy them' rules the shaggoth could become somewhat more viable with an additional d6 strength 5 attacks after its normal attacks

T10
19-05-2010, 10:50
The Shaggoth is worth it:

* Fast (M 7) and does not depend on flying
* Maneuverable (a single-model unit)
* Hard-hitting
* If not invulnerable then at least durable.
* Rank-breaker

The Shaggoth works great in concert with other rank-breaking units because it is fast enough to move into position for a combined charge.

The Shaggoth doesn't work too well on his own.

-T10

LordoftheBrassThrone
19-05-2010, 11:10
It depends on the rest of your army as well though, I take a lot of warriors and no knights, so the hellcannon would be tempting for me.... if I didnt have 2 exalteds running around the enemy lines (disc and steed of slaanesh). I dont like the giant model, looks too fat, so I was tempted by the DOs, especially cos of the new 15% rare rumours, but the DO models are so ugly, they look ancient, well are ancient i suppose. So the shaggoth wins for me!

stwess
20-05-2010, 11:51
Ofcourse if rumours about unit strength and flanking are in anyway true (i heard it was now US10?) then one of the main advantages of the shaggoth is going to be lost, which is sad because I love the model and was even considering WoC just to have one (or 2!).

ST

logan054
20-05-2010, 11:56
Well if the 8th edition rumors are true with the 'crush them' and 'destroy them' rules the shaggoth could become somewhat more viable with an additional d6 strength 5 attacks after its normal attacks

D6 strength 6 attacks ;)

Mullitron
20-05-2010, 12:55
D6 strength 6 attacks ;)

In addition to its normal attacks :) if true will also make the other creatures of the chaos book more viable.

I think the shaggoth is a good option, its not something in the list that is soo good it jumps off the page at you, thus becoming a standard choice in most woc lists like the hydra is for the dark elves. However its definitely a viable option for chaos and can have a strong impact on a game. Imop its more like the catagory of vargulf for vampire counts, its good but not amazing. For day to day games its a strong model that looks great, it will sometimes win you games and sometimes not, But unless your against tournament daemon and star dragon lists all the time it will pull its weight and you can have fun with one.

logan054
20-05-2010, 15:39
Mine single handly killed a unit of graveguard with wight king BSB once, was funny, mind you i did pass about 4 break tests lol and was killing a average of 4 a turn, was helpful the vampire exploded on turn two :D

In the current edition it still has plenty going for it, be it something that draws cannon balls from your knights, that in itself can win you a game, i think the main thing that makes the shaggoth viable is that strength 8 and good stats, i would say its one of the better ways to deal with a archlector on a war alter for WoC (well atm anyways :( )

Against empire its amazing how useful a M7 terror causer is, causing terror tests is actually a reasonable way to try and deal with cannons and handgunners, just a shame it can have marks anymore (if only it could have MoN :( )

Dungeon_Lawyer
21-05-2010, 14:04
Well if the 8th edition rumors are true with the 'crush them' and 'destroy them' rules the shaggoth could become somewhat more viable with an additional d6 strength 5 attacks after its normal attacks

+1

shaggy's got a new pair of 8th ed shoes coming his way

Mullitron
21-05-2010, 15:48
Not to mention kholek with his basic strength of 8! Tho will also mean hes restricted to larger games. Hopefully will make all the creatures of chaos more viable, even the daemon prince!

Witchblade
21-05-2010, 16:26
+1

shaggy's got a new pair of 8th ed shoes coming his way
...and they'll fit even worse than they do now. It won't be able to break ranks anymore.

willowdark
21-05-2010, 22:13
It's still a single base though, so will fit as neatly as ever along side ranked infantry in a frontal charge, especially with the new wider frontages.

Zoolander
23-05-2010, 05:58
The Giant is way more fun, the Shaggoth is more reliable and effective. But sadly, he is overpriced.

Von Wibble
23-05-2010, 11:21
well the shagoth does have a movement of seven witch is faster than the gaint. u KNOW what the shagoth will do in combat, where a gaint can be very unpredicteble. the shagoth has an armor save to protect him against mass bow fire



You're right. You KNOW the Shaggoth will inflict what, on average 3 kills vs most enemies, lose by 2 and run away after 2-3 rounds. Even in a flank charge, the shaggoth won't break the enemy in most circumstances.

Definately the giant. He doesn't need supporting whilst the shaggoth does.

Also on crush them attacks, I believe the giant and shaggoth both benefit.