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View Full Version : 8th Ed Rumours and Tomb Kings: a leg up, or totally boned?



Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 13:22
Right, its Khemri's turn, how are the kings going to fair from 8th Ed based on the current rumours?

Initially I thought it was the end of the line for the Kings, the early rumour of a flat 25% cap on all characters seemed to finally put them to bed, but once that one was debunked (and we're now looking at 25% on Lords AND 25% on heroes) things look a lot more rosy.

Here are the areas I think will effect the Kings most

1. Changes to fear: the loss of auto-break seriously cripples our 6th/7th Ed tactics. The problem: most TK units are poor in combat and do relatively little damage, the only real heavy hitters in the list (Ushabti and Bone Giant) are over-costed and sub-par.

On the other hand, vague (and unconfirmed) rumours of CR bonuses for fear causers may offer us a glimmer of hope.

2. True Line of Sight: Whilst I'm convinced this is bad for the game as a whole its a huge pile of win for Tomb Kings. With archers that will continue to happily ignore any modifiers conferred by cover, intervening units and the like TK shooting will likely remain at least as effective as it is now, whilst everyone else is struggling to hit through the myriad of negative modifers that are likely to be incurred.

Also the casket and catapults are likely to get a significant boost to this as they'll be able to target pretty much everything on the table.

3. Magic phase changes: Slightly nervous about this one, while we're not sure exactly what will happen it looks like wizards will add their level on to their casting and dispel totals, which will make both phases an uphill struggle for us (since our priests don't have power levels). Its unclear yet if the new casting procedures will at all effect the way TK incantations are cast, but what is clear is that most armies will have a +4, or +2 modifier to dispel any spell cast by our priests, which is not at all good news.

4. Monstrous Infantry - trample attacks: a much needed boost for our Ushabs, maybe for the Bone Giant/scorpion too, much win here.

5. Shooting in ranks will help us as well, now our 20 strong units of archers can deploy in 2x10 formations and all shoot even when not on a hill

6. Combat changes: fight in 2 ranks, step up and strike in I order.

Striking in I order is bad for us, chariots will now definitely be the offensive unit of choice, our infantry will suffer, but will be fielded in large enough numbers to make good use of the step-up rule. As skeletons are about as good at causing combat damage as a rubber herring the step-up rule itself will be of little benefit to us, with the exception of Tomb Guard, who will become even more essential in the new rules.

7. Ranks required to remove ranks bonus from flank charge.

Pretty good for us as we'll have something of an advantage against other armies, I now do not expect to see any TK armies that do not contain a unit of Tomb Guard bearing the Icon of Rakaph.

8. Percentages in, choices out.

Without choices there are some interesting options open to us, the possibility of more scorpions for example, but I'm most interested to discover whether it will be possible to take more than 1 Lord at 2000pts. Being able to field a High priest and a Tomb King at this level could make for some very interesting combinations.

Please discuss these, and any more you can think of.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-05-2010, 13:43
Sound analyses from where I stand, so I cannot add much. Let me just add that I strongly suppose that things like having no power level will be adressed in a FAQ shortly after the rules hit the shelves.

Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 15:06
Sound analyses from where I stand, so I cannot add much. Let me just add that I strongly suppose that things like having no power level will be adressed in a FAQ shortly after the rules hit the shelves.

That is a possibility, they could simply rule that priests count as L2 and High priests as L4. The same determination would be needed for dwarf runesmiths/lords for example. They might also have to errata the line in the Tk army book which states that priests generate dispel dice.

White_13oy
20-05-2010, 15:31
I'm not putting the character one in the clear. The collection still says that 25% max characters. Then goes on to say people have seen it both way printed in the trial books. So I see it as it can go both ways. Also I think the Icon of Rakaph will become redundant, as having a champion gives you a free reform anyways. Also I think the new warriors setup will be spears since all HW+Sh gives it a 6+ unmodifiable save, so 3 ranks or that 6+ save.

Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 15:49
I'm not putting the character one in the clear. The collection still says that 25% max characters. Then goes on to say people have seen it both way printed in the trial books. So I see it as it can go both ways. Also I think the Icon of Rakaph will become redundant, as having a champion gives you a free reform anyways. Also I think the new warriors setup will be spears since all HW+Sh gives it a 6+ unmodifiable save, so 3 ranks or that 6+ save.

I think you're missing the crucial point about the Icon of Rakaph. it allows you a free reform before charges are declared. So you can literally reform to face a unit outside of your visual arc (i.e the unit which has just charged the block next to you) and then immediately hit it in the flank.

Gaargod
20-05-2010, 16:49
Very, very much depends on how characters pans out.

Option 1: 25% lord, 25% hero. Happy (ish - they're still not that great :D ) TK. For example, at 2.25k you could have Tomb King with destroyer of eternities and collar shapesh tagging along with a Liche High Priest with 50pts of gear (whatever floats your boat). Then walking along behind come another 3 liche priests! In other words, magic phase goes up.

Assuming they rule priests = lv2/4, magic isn't doing too badly either. You don't have an issue with random PD (god alone knows how that might errata though) and IFs aren't a problem either. TK might actually do rather well magically (2 My Wills, 2 3D6 incants and 3 2D6 incants + whatever magic items).


Option 2.

25% characters total, although any number of lords/heroes.

Oh dear. Tomb King + 2 liche priests is all getting (specifically 100pts of gear between them). Unhappy face on TK players.


And you will need a tomb king, more than ever. 25% core really means chariots + archers in some numbers, as usual.


Also on the plus side: Screaming Skull Catapults become insane, Casket of Souls gets better (no MR shenanigans, more LoS) and archers get a buff (more ranks and now 5+ to hit is even better). Tomb Guard are rather shiny too

Ushabti also get a boost, as do bone giants, but i still think they won't be taken much (high price, low survivability = not fun).

decker_cky
20-05-2010, 17:03
Important thing with the change to the fear rule is that it means there'll be units that charge in then are screwed, rather than being simply stopped from charging. Sometimes this will be to the unit's benefit (for example, adding static CR to a multi combat), but other times (most often in 1 on 1 battles) it'll leave the charging unit in big trouble.

True line of sight will be a huge boost to tomb kings.

Chariots will be about the same. No longer vulnerable to S7, but they'll take a lot of wounds charging into a relatively dangerous unit, whereas they can remove oncoming attacks even from ASF units now.

L192837465
20-05-2010, 17:08
Nothing has been confirmed or denied for this army or 8th edition, so for all you know, the rules might state "for every game you lose, your opponent must buy you a steak dinner."

That being said, I'm excited for the new TK models.


Clever title, btw.

Von Wibble
20-05-2010, 18:58
If magic works as rumoured for all other armies and multilpe casters add very little effect, I think the Icon Bearer will become more popular. He is better in combat than a Tomb Prince and cheaper...

KB rule change means the scorpions are nasty!

Skeleton archers get quite a boost with volley fire. Also the TLOS helps since they don't really care about the cover.

As pointed out above the casket gets even better.

Bone Giant gets a nice boost from the fear rules. If the enemy fails their check then hitting on 3s combined with the bonus attacks on charging (Unstoppable Assault?) is a great buff. Remember they are also quite resilient compared to other similar pointed monsters (eg Giant). But I doubt they will be used because...

....I struggle to imagine any TK army without 2 catapults at 2500 points. Guessing gone and TLOS both really bosst these. However, if the immunity to panic within 12" of the general is true then one of the bonuses is gone.

Brooch of the great desert could be very useful if scrolls are being limited as rumoured.

I think Ushabti are too expensive to really benefit from the monstrous infantry rules. 6 in a unit costs 390? - far too much. They will get some stomp attacks but that doesn't make up for stepping up imo.

Tomb Swarms aren't going to like the skirmisher rules.

Agnar the Howler
20-05-2010, 19:20
I think a good amount of the unplayability will be addressed in the new TK book, as it will definately be geared for 8th edition and therefore percentages etc., which may also give it a boost in later editions if they dump percentages, as the cheap and effective characters you recieved in your 8th edition book out of need for them can be used to even fuller effect.

It all depends on the new book really, hoping that you get a competant writer and that it addresses some (if not all) of the main issues surrounding TK in 8th is really all you can do right now.

VoodooJanus
20-05-2010, 19:27
While I'm not sure on this count, the title made me laugh for quite a while. Chuckled-during-conversations-15-minutes-later laugh. So good job!

The things I see getting good in the TK army are their archers (large blocks of these will have both stubborn, horde, and a TON of shots.) Plus, this crazyness about TLoS and lots of to-hit modifiers makes their special ability to hit on a 5+ regardless very very good.

Caskets, for the same reason (anything and everything will be able to draw LoS) will be getting better as well.

Lastly, the SSC, with auto hit on partials and the removal of guessing will be VERY good, especially against any of those low-leadership horde armies that will likely begin popping up.

Honestly, the only thing that's really getting any worse for them is the 25% character limit. This could prove to make the army unplayable, or, there could be something about it in the FAQ. We just don't know.

Anyways- I hope the best for my dry-boned friends. They could use a little boost in the new book.

Chiron
20-05-2010, 19:39
Well I'm thinking its a good job I've got 3 scorpions and will try to squeeze in another, lovely Scorps

Edition is another nail in the coffin(!) for bog standard Skeleton Warrior units though, bar the archers.

Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 20:40
While I'm not sure on this count, the title made me laugh for quite a while. Chuckled-during-conversations-15-minutes-later laugh. So good job!

The things I see getting good in the TK army are their archers (large blocks of these will have both stubborn, horde, and a TON of shots.) Plus, this crazyness about TLoS and lots of to-hit modifiers makes their special ability to hit on a 5+ regardless very very good.

Caskets, for the same reason (anything and everything will be able to draw LoS) will be getting better as well.

Lastly, the SSC, with auto hit on partials and the removal of guessing will be VERY good, especially against any of those low-leadership horde armies that will likely begin popping up.

Honestly, the only thing that's really getting any worse for them is the 25% character limit. This could prove to make the army unplayable, or, there could be something about it in the FAQ. We just don't know.

Anyways- I hope the best for my dry-boned friends. They could use a little boost in the new book.

To be honest if the char limit is a flat 25% (I feel that is unlikely now) I think the only way to play TK will be 2250 with Khalida, a priest and as many catapults and poisoned archers as you can fit. Just keep using K's irresistible incant to double fire the catapult and pour poison down on the enemy, but otherwise ignore magic.

It wont do very well, and it'll be boring to play with/against, but it'll be either that or roll over.

TheZombieSquig
20-05-2010, 20:47
3. Magic phase changes: Slightly nervous about this one, while we're not sure exactly what will happen it looks like wizards will add their level on to their casting and dispel totals, which will make both phases an uphill struggle for us (since our priests don't have power levels). Its unclear yet if the new casting procedures will at all effect the way TK incantations are cast, but what is clear is that most armies will have a +4, or +2 modifier to dispel any spell cast by our priests, which is not at all good news.
Maybe this is one of the reasons that TK will be one of the first new books to come out after 8th--because the casters will be changed to have normal wizard levels.


6. Combat changes: fight in 2 ranks, step up and strike in I order.

Striking in I order is bad for us, chariots will now definitely be the offensive unit of choice, our infantry will suffer, but will be fielded in large enough numbers to make good use of the step-up rule. As skeletons are about as good at causing combat damage as a rubber herring the step-up rule itself will be of little benefit to us, with the exception of Tomb Guard, who will become even more essential in the new rules.
Same predicament as VC, but without the WS3 ghouls (vs. WS1 afraid attackers). Unfortunately TK spearmen will be less effective than VC spearmen as there's no ASF from corpse carts.

With the new shooting rumours, skeleton archers will be improved. With the removal of S7 auto-kill, chariots will be improved. So that's a strong core for the army to build round.

decker_cky
20-05-2010, 20:58
I just realized....it's possible that the TK magic phase gets a huge boost without even adding the levels. Doesn't it say TK magic is cast like a bound spell with power level D6/2D6/3D6? So army rolls 2d6 for number of power dice, and you need at least 1 of the power dice per casting, but have the power dice added to the bound power level.

Being able to boost the casket beyond 2d6 would be immense, as would powering up a particular charge you only have one shot at.

Spiney Norman
20-05-2010, 21:07
I just realized....it's possible that the TK magic phase gets a huge boost without even adding the levels. Doesn't it say TK magic is cast like a bound spell with power level D6/2D6/3D6? So army rolls 2d6 for number of power dice, and you need at least 1 of the power dice per casting, but have the power dice added to the bound power level.

Being able to boost the casket beyond 2d6 would be immense, as would powering up a particular charge you only have one shot at.



The incantation chosen is automatically cast like a bound spell, at a power level that is determined by rolling 2D6 in the case of a priest's incantation, and 3D6 in the case of a High Priest. Note that these are not power dice

Also, considering that they are stated as ignoring the rules for IF and miscasts throwing such a large number of dice around isn't even in any way dangerous. Also, as they're not power dice they wont be subject to the 12PD maximum. So you'll generate 2D6 power dice plus the power levels of the incantations.

Surely they've got to errata this almost immediately, otherwise TK are due for about a year of elevation to daemonhood before our 8th Ed book gets published.

Its also occurred to me, that if that actually is how TK magic would work with 8th Ed, Tk wouldn't at all need more than 25% chars...

OldMan
20-05-2010, 21:27
Tomb Kings will be boned...
I wonder if they will mind it, being essentialy bare bones arleady

:D

Urgat
21-05-2010, 07:39
1. Changes to fear: the loss of auto-break seriously cripples our 6th/7th Ed tactics. The problem: most TK units are poor in combat and do relatively little damage, the only real heavy hitters in the list (Ushabti and Bone Giant) are over-costed and sub-par.

I'm not too familiar with TK, as I never fought against them sadly, but they never striked me as an army with large numbers; if this is correct, does losing autobreak really is problem for them?

Spiney Norman
21-05-2010, 08:37
The accepted tactic is to hold the front with a block of 25ish skeleton warriors then strike at a flank with chariots, usually giving a combine US of 30ish, which was enough to auto-break most things.

The trouble is TK have low strength attacks and low WS across the board, on combat the only good damage causers are characters, ushabti and bone giants (well scorps as well, but they're a poor choice of flanker because they couldn't break ranks). Ushabti and bone giants are way over-priced and seldom used. I suspect with the rumoured need-a-rank bonus-to-break-ranks it will be hard for TK to even win combat, let alone break the enemy.

Which leaves us with shooting, which fortunately we are becoming somewhat better at.

Urgat
21-05-2010, 08:50
I see. Well, as you pointed out in your first post, those ushabti, tomb scorpions and bone giants may finally see some use as real hard hitters now :)

Spiney Norman
21-05-2010, 08:56
I see. Well, as you pointed out in your first post, those ushabti, tomb scorpions and bone giants may finally see some use as real hard hitters now :)

If the rumoured D6 trample attacks for monsters are subject to the Bone Giant's unstoppable assault rule I'd say he could easily be a viable choice. D6+5 attacks with an additional attack for each wounding strike (before saves). yes please :)

Enigmatik1
21-05-2010, 14:52
If the rumoured D6 trample attacks for monsters are subject to the Bone Giant's unstoppable assault rule I'd say he could easily be a viable choice. D6+5 attacks with an additional attack for each wounding strike (before saves). yes please :)

I just can't see them letting that one through. It reeks of OTT to me, but of course it's dependent on Big Bone making it into combat in the first place. Then again, with his low WS3, it might not be that OTT. :evilgrin:

soots
21-05-2010, 15:29
Im interested in what will happen with troop costs.

We know a skeleton is an 8pt goblin with undead rules. But since fear is nerfed, and goblins will inevitably get stubborn, what makes skeletons so special isnt there anymore.

I can see skeletons costing 4-5pts each.

cptcosmic
21-05-2010, 16:14
Im interested in what will happen with troop costs.

We know a skeleton is an 8pt goblin with undead rules. But since fear is nerfed, and goblins will inevitably get stubborn, what makes skeletons so special isnt there anymore.

I can see skeletons costing 4-5pts each.
skeletons may be raised up, goblins cannot
skeletons dont run away, goblins may run pretty fast on failed test => that means you can easily plan ahead with flank charges, knowing your units wont run.
feared goblins will fight even worse then before thus will be pretty much raped by skeletons.

Von Wibble
21-05-2010, 17:59
Yes, but skeletons crumble. And the fact they can be raised is surely accounted for in character costs not skeletons.

There was a rumour of 6 points each in the TK rumour roundup iirc. That number seems sensible to me.

Witchblade
21-05-2010, 18:05
I'm afraid these changes will only force competitive TK players even more into the gunline direction. 1 TG unit, some carrions, lots of archers, as many scatapults as possible, max characters, max scorpions, mybe some chariots.

I hope Ushabti will be buffed enough.

Von Wibble
21-05-2010, 18:09
You could well be right. At least if the turbo charge 16" infantry rumour is true then gunlines won't get much of a go...

I thought the auto hits on partials had been shot down btw. Combined as I mentioned above with less panic checks, ang the fact that removing guesses doesn't change much, catapults aren't gaining that much from before. You can just have 1 more conceivably.

lethlis
21-05-2010, 18:18
Dont forget that since chariots will be in the 40MM category, a unit of 5 with character will be able to still negate ranks and at the end will have outnumber. Not as easy as before but still viable.

Frankly
21-05-2010, 18:52
I'm just musing but:

How much is a catapult these day?

TK will be able to have 3 in 2k won't they?

Will they be able to use them again in the magic phase?

With the new TLOS and template rule runours, that'd be pretty strong.

Enigmatik1
21-05-2010, 19:12
skeletons may be raised up, goblins cannot
skeletons dont run away, goblins may run pretty fast on failed test => that means you can easily plan ahead with flank charges, knowing your units wont run.
feared goblins will fight even worse then before thus will be pretty much raped by skeletons.

Remember, Tomb King Skeletons and Vampire Count Skeletons are two entirely different animals. Tomb Kings players do not have the resources to dedicate to re-summong slaughtered Skeleton "Warriors." I think I've actually cast Djedra's Incantation of Summoning twice in the almost 2 years I've run TK. Neither time was on a Skeleton unit. It's a waste of an incantation 90% of the time. The only efficient ways to reanimate Skeletons are with the Banner of the Undying Legion and/or the Spear of Antarhak and even those rarely can offset the massive casualties incurred by a Skeleton "Warrior" unit as they tend to be massive.


I'm afraid these changes will only force competitive TK players even more into the gunline direction. 1 TG unit, some carrions, lots of archers, as many scatapults as possible, max characters, max scorpions, mybe some chariots.

I hope Ushabti will be buffed enough.

I sincerely hope not, but you're probably right. Personally, I'm trying to finagle two TG units and 3 Scorpions as the basis of my list. I want to play guess which unit has the Icon and OMGWTFScorps?!? I'll have a token unit or two of archers just to give me some dice to roll in the shooting phase, but I always dismiss them as ineffective unless I'm shooting at skirmishing units...in terrain...from long range.


I'm just musing but:

How much is a catapult these day?

TK will be able to have 3 in 2k won't they?

Will they be able to use them again in the magic phase?

With the new TLOS and template rule runours, that'd be pretty strong.

Agreed. I personally would find that exceedingly boring (and unfair for my opponents). Scatter aside, I'm a guessing nightmare with my catapults as it is. Taking that out of the equation is just plain unfair, as no one is perfect. I'll just stick to the one and my Casket. :)

Catapults come in at around 100 points per depending on upgrades. You could easily fit 3 in a 2k list probably. That just seems like overkill to me. But hey, different strokes for different folks! :cheese:

Frankly
21-05-2010, 19:52
ooo hhhh hhhh hhhh ... so actually you could have 3 catapults and a casket :)

Skywave
21-05-2010, 20:11
Rare choice are rumored to be capped at 2 choice of the same unit, so you'll see 2 SSC maximum as it's now. But the difference might be if we could squeeze a Casket in addition to those, then it could be interesting, depending where the Casket points goes.

But Tomb Kings in general lack number (wich is a shame, I'd like to get some big unit in there). Skeletons as everyone know are overpriced as of now, even more so if the fear and autobreak is changed to be less brutal.

With striking in initiative, our skeletons, even if in big-ish unit, won't last long and as other said, while we can resurect some we can't keep up with medium to high casualty. So it seems that for a while archer migh be the best choice for core infantry.

I don't know about chariot and impact hit, but even with impact going before attacks as usual, with full attack from the enemy striking before the chariots crews it'll be as good as charging a wall. Chariots is relying on both impact and crews attack to reduce incoming attack (high number of hit and attack for more chance to kill a few enemies). Now enemy striking back at full number and even with an extra rank? Yeah Chariots will drop fast.

Same for Ushabti. I don't know what happen with equal initiative (dice it off, charger have advantage?), but I3 is pretty average and a lot of stuff, especially elite unit (wich is a target for Ushabti) will strike before Ushabti. And no matter what attack bonus they get, you might as well loose them before having the chance to strike because they're far from resiliant. And they're still high costed wich is a big turn off.

Frankly
21-05-2010, 20:22
Rare choice are rumored to be capped at 2 choice of the same unit, so you'll see 2 SSC maximum....

ahhh ok cheers mate, I thought it was 3 per unit choice, thanks for the heads up.

TK are one of the first books to be redone in 8th right?

White_13oy
21-05-2010, 20:42
Hopefully, but Dark Eldar have been coming soon for a good 4-5(I think) years and are only possibly seeing the light of day this year or early next. And TK are probably the Dark Eldar of Fantasy. But I will gladly eat my own words.

Yamabushi
22-05-2010, 06:52
I think TK will end up on the same "power level" as it is now. Some units will be buffed, others nerfed, but not enough to push it up a notch or bring it down to utter crap.

For example, Bowmen and TLOS, based on Avian's statement in the TLOS thread in General Discussion on how it's believed to function, and firing in two ranks, I believe no one would ever field CC skellies anymore.

Striking in Initiative will hurt, I don't know if Tomb Guard will be viable. :(

Spiney Norman
25-05-2010, 11:12
Hopefully, but Dark Eldar have been coming soon for a good 4-5(I think) years and are only possibly seeing the light of day this year or early next. And TK are probably the Dark Eldar of Fantasy. But I will gladly eat my own words.

The current Dark Eldar Codex is 12 years old, I really hope TK don't get delayed that long. best estimates put TK at almost exactly a year away, but things change. There will possibly be one book before TK, which as rumours currently go, is likely to be Orcs and goblins.

eigil-b
17-06-2010, 11:39
Some units will be buffed, others nerfed, but not enough to push it up a notch or bring it down to utter crap.:(

I must admit that i dont see how its possible to nerf Tk further, as they atm is one of the most uncompetetive armies out there. Not out of personal interest, but out of sheer terror that I will be the only TK player out there I certainly dont hope this is going to happen...

Putty
17-06-2010, 11:54
double skull catapults will be still as freaking annoying and now wound on no partials.

and their chariots do not explode now when they get S7+ wounds.

the setback with fear is a minor inconvenience for any undead army.

Voss
17-06-2010, 12:03
The viability of TK will depend heavily on the 8th ed errata. How their magic works, and how various standard and army specific rules interact will make a huge difference far beyond the main rules.

On chariots- Personally, I'm not so impressed. Some autohits will be nice, but the stepping up and attacks back will devastate the fragile TK chariots. You'll inflict casualties, but probably lose to the unstoppable counterattack.

And enemies should be happy that rare spam is restricted- 2 rare choices of the same type protect people from 5 SSCs at 500 points. On the other hand, being able to field a giant and catapults could be interesting, if the giant errata looks good- there is no way I'm going to take it for granted that the thunderstomp hits will combine with the unstoppable assault rule. But even an extra d6 attacks help the poor overcosted thing.


Personally, I'm tempted by a big block of skeleton spearmen, or perhaps a unit of 6 Ushabti. Expensive, but a lot of attacks.

Frankly
17-06-2010, 12:33
Chariots should work in combat where they're intended to go, into the flanks.

Your right Voss, for a few armies and thats mainly TK its the errata thats the most important thing. Or it might just be priest spam FTW.

skelezom
17-06-2010, 15:07
I don't think you guys realize this but chariots don't get autokilled by strength 7 or higher. Tomb Kings use LIGHT Chariots that follow their own set of rules, like fast cav, which allows them a free 12 inch move after deployment, and getting killed by strength 7 or higher. Also, Our Chariots will be dreadful. We won't have enough impact hits to curb the amount of attacks back from enemy units, and toughness 4 and a 5+ save is the same as a spear orcs. Any big blocks of infantry that we have is going to be dreadful against any other unit in the game, as they will now be stubborn against our over priced infantry models. The only time that we will be able to strike first is with the crook and flail of radiance or against saurus whi will ROFLpwn us in combat anyways. This is the start of a dark year for the Tomb Kings.

Spiney Norman
28-06-2010, 00:04
I don't think you guys realize this but chariots don't get autokilled by strength 7 or higher. Tomb Kings use LIGHT Chariots that follow their own set of rules, like fast cav, which allows them a free 12 inch move after deployment, and getting killed by strength 7 or higher. Also, Our Chariots will be dreadful. We won't have enough impact hits to curb the amount of attacks back from enemy units, and toughness 4 and a 5+ save is the same as a spear orcs. Any big blocks of infantry that we have is going to be dreadful against any other unit in the game, as they will now be stubborn against our over priced infantry models. The only time that we will be able to strike first is with the crook and flail of radiance or against saurus whi will ROFLpwn us in combat anyways. This is the start of a dark year for the Tomb Kings.

So what you're saying is, that our chariots wont be able to walk over units unsupported any more, yeah I guess that makes them totally useless...

Also they don not "have their own rules", they follow "all the rules for chariots" with "the following exceptions", which are clearly listed in the Light Chariots special rule. The white box on p. 25 is a summary and clarification on the chariot rules as they were in 6th Edition, they do not in any way replace the rules for chariots from the BRB, they will become totally obsolete once 8th Ed is out.

Gonzoyola
28-06-2010, 01:31
So I don't play Tomb Kings, more the Vile Vampires, but I have always loved the look of Tomb Kings, they are a respectable army and I wish I could find someone in my area who plays them. Just glancing through here and thinking of new rules I have thought of asking what players think of taking blocks of horde archers? with the salvo rule, that sounds like it could be amazing. I dont know if you have a max limit on your archer units, but if a player really wants to pull off the undead legion look, a single unit of archers (which is all you need seeing as restrictions are gone) should be able to put out respectable shooting and then stay rooted for a good deal of time. I think Shooting is certainly going to be what defines the Tomb Kings, as I dont think the intention was to ever have two vampire counts armies running around.

Halelel
28-06-2010, 04:23
Well, I literally haven't "dusted" off my TK in over 2ish years, but they are still my favorite army. However, I found myself just taking the same old list of chariot spam or Khalida's gunline just to remain somewhat competitive and that gets old really fast unless you face a similar "one trick pony" army.

The idea you mentioned Gonzoyola is pretty common among TK players (all 25 of us). Unfortunately though it looks like taking mass amount of archers will be the only way to go as our close combat units will be utterly decimated by pretty much any other core unit of equal points. While tomb guard were serviceable in 7th, I'm worried that they are going to underperform in 8th. The Khalida gunline army comp may become the normal TK army until our new book arrives.

However, it is quite unfortunate, as we do have some really gorgeous models in our range. I'll probably try various army lists in 8th, but I got an inkling that it is not going to be much better in 8th till we get a rewrite.

Marshal Augustine
28-06-2010, 05:12
I have recently played 2 games with my TK. Everything went fine except for magic... not having an errata yet and many options being viable to use incantations is the thing that has frustrated me the most.

Even with 25% lord, 25% hero... you can get a lot of heroes but then you don't really have enough points to spend on the basic troops (more skellies or TG) that i have found are very important in 8th ed.

A large block of skelly spearmen are now a main focuspoint in my list, supported by TG and Ushabti. Charriots are awesome, and with the new fast cav rules their free movement before the game is really nice. The change to fear is not so bad...
I did love the Icon Bearer, he is a must have IMO. I ran him with armour of the ages and thats it. Keep him near the ushabti for maximum effect.


A few things that are going to take getting used to:
- characters on chariots can't join other units...
- characters can no longer join warmachines (so now my cloak prince will have to be used for something else)

But the one and only thing that is preventing me from really liking it, is waiting for the errata... how in the hell are the incantations going to work with the new dinamics for the magic phase?

Cheers!

Gonzoyola
28-06-2010, 05:31
Eventhough I am not a TK player, I have to admit I am rather excited to see how they will call the Incantations. People are already screaming gloom and doom saying that TK magic is boned, but until I see the Errata, I have a good feeling they wont do it injustice

arff98
28-06-2010, 22:42
...While tomb guard were serviceable in 7th, I'm worried that they are going to underperform in 8th....
Why? Dont the TG in 8th benefit from the 6+ ward save? Don`t they get an extra atack from the second rank? An extra attack with KB sounds great. Plus imagine a 20 uniy TG unit with the banner of rakaph, they can choose thier formation before charging, that means they can be expand to 10 wide and get the +1 attack for the front rank according to the rank horde rule. Sure 10 wide is too wide and you might loose a rank or two but if the enemy is another elite infantry that means (14 from 1st rk+5 from 2nd rk) 19 strenght 4 and KB attacks. They will go last agaisnt most enemies but they have the best resistence, AS and Wd S a TK unit can get.

... The change to fear is not so bad...

You are right, just imagine playing exclusively agaisnt Deamons, Chaos and Vampires.


A few things that are going to take getting used to:
- characters on chariots can't join other units...

whqt do you mean? Characters on chariots cant join other units unless those units are units of chariots. This TK rule has existed since Sixth ed.

Chiron
28-06-2010, 23:32
I wonder how a TK with stripped down heroes would do, take a Prince, Liche Priest or two and just spam archers/light cav to get to 500 points of core and then go all out on the 1000 points of specials

gdsora
29-06-2010, 00:45
I wonder how a TK with stripped down heroes would do, take a Prince, Liche Priest or two and just spam archers/light cav to get to 500 points of core and then go all out on the 1000 points of specials

Move slower then molasses, and get blown to pieces by your lack of fighting capabilities.

I have tried this already

Bob Khemeri
29-06-2010, 02:23
My will be done is going to be undispellable. It is the only possible option. If dispel dice are determined by power dice and our spells are not rolled on anyway then how would it possibly work. I imagine priests become like normal mages with a new lore with a buffer ivocation that can be dispelled.

Either way a unit of 3 ushbati will be getting 18 str 6 attacks and possibly 6 impact hits.

It is the only way to give TK the buffs needed to compete.

Tk will be the most maneuverable army in the game and with extra reforms/movements/charges/attacks/shooting it will be their flavor that every army receives.