PDA

View Full Version : A Question to Tournament Players (Bringing Terrain)



Malorian
20-05-2010, 15:37
Ok, the background for this thread is that my area just took a HUGE hit as the idiots in GW fired a bunch of the middle management in my area and in particular two people who ran the biggest tournaments.

So now it looks like it might be time for Malorian to step up...


Now I can run tournaments (I run two smallish ones a year) but the problem when they get bigger (40-50 people) is terrain.

I had a brain flash though and thought about an idea where when you bring in your fully painted army that you also bring in 2-3 terrain. When you get to the tournament you setup your army and terrain on any one half of a gaming board and then the painting judging can happen. From that point you play your games but leave the terrain there until the end of the tournament.


So what do the tournament goers of Warseer think about this? Would you be fine bringing your own terrain to a tournament?

rtunian
20-05-2010, 16:02
perhaps i'm spoiled by the nearby bunker, but i'd be annoyed if i had to model/paint up a few pieces of terrain in order to be able to participate in a tournament. plus for me that would would bring up a transportation problem.

Jind_Singh
20-05-2010, 16:15
See it's a tough question - on the one hand I need an excuse to buy some of the great terrain pieces from the store, but on the other hand I barely have enough time to build/paint my armies!

But having built and painted a watch tower when I used to work for a store I can say it was a lot of fun - a nice change from painting troops.

And if bringing some terrain meant being able to play a tournament as the local scene had changed - well then what can you do? Either bring the terrain and help everyone out or don't moan there are no more events! Ideally the local stores should still be providing terrain pieces but it sounds like this won't be the case no more.

Good luck Malorian - I have faith in thee!

AtmaTheWanderer
20-05-2010, 16:16
Absolutely not. It's one thing to play with my painted models, which I am constantly with and watching the entire game, then to leave my terrain half a room away potentially under the care of some jerk who doesn't paint his models "cause it's not part of the game", and constantly spills beverages on things.

if I was required to bring terrain for a tournament, you're getting 2 cut and flocked styrofoam hills and a piece of felt with two trees to go with it.

I should point out 'Ard Boyz has crushed any and all faith I have in people who attend Warhammer Tournaments. The amount of whining over scenario 3 was just RIDICULOUS.

shadow hunter
20-05-2010, 16:21
Yeah, I dont think I'd trust any bought or made terrain to still be there afterwards.

dragonet111
20-05-2010, 16:29
Hi.

If the rules of the tourney says: if possible bring some terrain from the list below.
With a list that looks like
A corner hill
A lake/water terrain
.....
.....
Because you lack some terrains I would happily provide mine. But only if it's to provide every tables the same kind of setting, I think a tourney is nothing like a game at home and in a tourney everybody have to be able to play under the same conditions.
So if you ask terrains to make all the tables identical I bring my terrains otherwise no.

Gaargod
20-05-2010, 16:34
Problem is, as people have said, they don't want other strangers using their terrain. This leaves you with 2 options:

1) Do it anyway, and provide as much decent stuff as you can lay your hands on.

2) Allow people to take their terrain with them. Unfortunately, this has loads of possibilities for abuse - you just know someone will take a lizardmen army with 3 12" lakes, complete with crocodiles etc to make them very difficult/dangerous/impassable terrain for everyone who isn't aqauatic (which just happens to be half his army).

With option 1, try a building session on terrain. No need to buy GW stuff - some cardboard, plants from local fishery and some random rocks/gravel will be enough. It might not be brilliant, but you should be able to make quite a lot at low price. Up the price of the tournament a bit to compensate, if necessary (couple of quid per person sort of thing).

Option 2... enforce some very strict rules. I.e. no terrain pieces of the same type, no buildings with more than 2 tiers, limit the size of the terrain (no one taking 3x12" round circles of different types of terrain to just wreck armies, for instance).
Also goes along with what sort of tournament you're doing. If its comped, especially heavily into a 'soft' tournament, you'll need less rules.
If its uncomped, go find a lawyer - for example, i'd be rather miffed if someone brought a 5 tier ruin which spans a 12" square, just because the rules didn't state anything about height in non buildings. Or someone bringing a massive multi-tiered fortified hill for their dwarf gunline (probably as well as a big ass swamp and a large multi-tiered ruin - many many guns!).

Rogue
20-05-2010, 16:39
We have local tournaments around here (around 24 in attendance at the most) and I have almost always brought my terrain and table to the event. Some of these I do organize, so it makes sense that the TO brings in terrain, but many people bring in their own terrain. Never have I seen anyone take any terrain out of the store, nor have we ever had any trouble of people stealing any terrain. Nothing is bought but made so they are not that valuable pieces of terrain to beguin with. I think that anyone tries to steal terrain will be asked never to come back.

Also all of the tables are pre-set before any games are played by the TO here. This means that the TO knows for the most part what is missing. I know that I can remember what was on the table when I placed it and as people end their last game I break down the table. If anyone is stealing the terrain, no one gets paid until I get it back. Granted this is ten tables that I run so it is may be difficult with twenty.

What I would suggest is to have a terrain day where people come in and help in making terrain. You can get a lot done on a day like that for an upcoming tournament or even a campaign. Also if you pre-set the tables like we do, have an inventory of the table and check periodically if anything is taken.

Malorian
20-05-2010, 16:46
Well I guess you could have it going along with the player... would kind of add to the tactical part of it, but I agree there would have to be strict rules to stop abuse (size and type).

Maybe terrain comes with you but you randomize it at the start of the game with your opponent so you would have no idea if you would use it or not.


Terrain getting damaged is a risk, but I don't think stealing is.

Hiding a tower in your coat is much harder than a hero model tucked away in a pocket while you were turning in your score sheet/getting lunch/going to the bathroom.


Edit: The tournament would also be one day so you wouldn't have to leave it there over night or anything.

Arkfatalis
20-05-2010, 18:18
Maybe you could bring a hill, tower and a fence and then roll a D3. Otherwise, it might be abused and some people take as much care with their terrain as they do with their miniatures, so I doubt people would want to leave it with someone else. Maybe you could use a D6 and if it is odd you use your terrain and if it is even you use your opponents. This would create less cheating.
However, I reckon that if you make this a written rule some people may see this as GW forcing people to buy more of their products. I would like to play in this tourny as it does sound more fun.

Malorian
20-05-2010, 18:19
I would like to play in this tourny as it does soundmore fun.

I'll make sure to send you the invite ;)

Arkfatalis
20-05-2010, 18:23
I'll make sure to send you the invite ;)

Bit of a distance though.... :D

Malorian
20-05-2010, 18:34
For those that said they would have issues, do any of you have ideas for what could be done to ease your worries?

L192837465
20-05-2010, 18:59
Build events.

This sentence is for filler.

Cognitave
20-05-2010, 19:03
Do you have buy ins for your tournaments? If you do, you can have it be like $7 with no terrain, $5 with 3 or more pieces. Put the extra money away towards purchasing new terrain pieces.

ChaosVC
20-05-2010, 19:07
Only to help a friend who is may be the organiser. Generally no.

Lord Inquisitor
20-05-2010, 19:17
In principle, it's a good idea. Many people either have terrain or need a good excuse to make some! I could let you twist my arm into making some new terrain.

However, you may find that it puts people off entering your tournaments. Making it a requirement could invalidate people who are unwilling or unable to make terrain for the event. You may also find that people bring a stack of crates or similar - terrain, yes, but not really going to fill a board. I generally find that actually demanding that tournament participants turn up with a painted army and even (gasp!) objective markers is a tall order and will usually result in lower attendance - although almost certainly a higher quality of tournament experience for the participants.

Actually putting together a 40-50-person tournament is a serious amount of work, and providing the tables is a big job, particularly for 40K. It's a good idea to see if there are any gaming groups that would lend you terrain or tables. I think asking participants to bring terrain is a great idea - but don't make it compulsory. An improved painting score (many tournaments expect you to bring a display board/tray and give additional painting score points for this) is one option. As noted above, a monetary incentive (reduced entry fee) is another option - alternatively you could waive the entry fee if they donate a piece of terrain, for example. A prize for the best terrain feature or simply a chance at winning a prize for bringing terrain is another option. However, all of these options require you to have a back-up plan in case noone brings any terrain, even if it's sticks from the garden glued to felt or whatever.

Malorian
20-05-2010, 19:45
At least in these parts, bringing a fully painted army isn't a problem, and in fact a lot come in very detailed carrying trays.

Rental space for such a large event is not cheap however, and so the idea of donating terrain to waive the registration fee isn't an option.


The big issue is I don't have space for all this terrain and the battle mats alone would set me back a grand... so me buying the terrain is not an option...

Having other clubs support terrain is a possibility but at the same time they have even less reason to help then the actual players do.


If I can't find a way to make this system work then the idea of me running these major tournaments is most likely dead in the water...

Lord Inquisitor
20-05-2010, 19:59
Don't buy battlemats. They're horrible to play on unless they've been glued down. 6x4 boards are much better and for a large tournament they don't need to be flocked ... slap some green paint on and that should do. There are inexpensive ways to make terrain. A friend of mine made 8 tables worth of terrain out of green and blue felt, quickly made hills sprayed green and with a bunch of pre-made trees. It cost him a small amount, but it allowed him to make the terrain set-up on all tables identical (interesting!) and 25 tables should be doable for a couple hundred dollars, with the boards themselves being the bulk of that. For 40K, buildings and ruins can be quickly and inexpensively made from foamcard - it's time that you'll need! As for reducing entrance fees, you can simply make it so if you bring terrain you pay the normal fee while those without terrain pay an extra premium (which can go towards paying for terrain or prize support!).

Talk to local clubs, you might be surprised at how much help you can get - they're running the club for the love of the game after all, so if they know they can help you get a major indy GT off the ground (because that's what a 50+ person tournament will be!) they might well want in on the action! If nothing else they might want to play in your tournament! Talk to GW, armorcast, gale force nine and ask for support for your tournaments - they may well give you stuff for free, I've seen them give quite impressive prize support as sponsorship, especially for the sort of tournament you're planning. I won a tournament in North Carolina and GW had given a stack of paint sets and army cases as well as models - I won a Skaven Battalion as well as the largest figure case and a bunch of gale force nine goodies and I get the impression much of this was donated by GW and GF9.

But do you know this will get that big? Or is this "at some point down the line it'll take off" wishful thinking (if you don't mind me being blunt)?

solvay
20-05-2010, 20:01
there is a similar tournament at my local club at the moment
since it is mainly a fantasy gaming club we have loads of fantasy terrain and very very little 40k terrain

were hosting a big fantasy + 40k event in a few months and wheras we easily have enough fantasy terrain to cover the 70 boards needed we can probably cover 2/20 of the 40k boards so the plan is to spend all of the extra money from the 40k side of it on terrain so that we have enough

maybe something similar would work for you having one or 2 small- medium sized tournaments that you could cover terrain wise and then use all of the profits to increase the terrain and hold a bigger tournament since you have more terrain, slowly building your clubs/groups terrain collection this way leaves you no out of pocket but just out of cupboard space:D

Malorian
20-05-2010, 20:03
When the people that GW fired ran these tournaments they were around the 40-50 mark just for fantasy.

Assuming I get the word out to the same people and advertise at the GW shops I should be able to get the same crowd.


Edit: If I could contact the people that got fired I might be able to rent/borrow their stuff, but I have a feeling they are mad with GW right now...

yabbadabba
20-05-2010, 20:14
Middle management is the cannon fodder of the Cutback Wars!


If I can't find a way to make this system work then the idea of me running these major tournaments is most likely dead in the water... Start off small mate, get a reputation for running awesome, well run tournaments.
As the rep grows, get clubs to buy into supporting the event, and then grow the event. Or invest a little every year to expand the tournament as you go. GW did it this way, as have many of the clubs I have known around the UK.

Good luck fella.

I forgot to add something. GW not running tournaments can be the best thing to happen to a community a well as the worst :)

VonUber
20-05-2010, 20:16
Every torny in lancashire tells you to bring 3 different terrain pieces. Usualy 3-9". Wood elves free wood counts towards this.

I usualy take 1 big wood, a hill and a pond.

rtunian
20-05-2010, 20:57
you can make extra tourney points for people who bring terrain, up to some limit, maybe 4 pieces. this will make up for the people who don't wnat to bring terrain, and it will give people an incentive for bringing terrain

by points i mean points towards winning the event. but it could also be some other advantage, such as d3 rerolls per piece of terrain brought, etc etc

Malorian
20-05-2010, 21:00
you can make extra tourney points for people who bring terrain, up to some limit, maybe 4 pieces. this will make up for the people who don't wnat to bring terrain, and it will give people an incentive for bringing terrain

by points i mean points towards winning the event. but it could also be some other advantage, such as d3 rerolls per piece of terrain brought, etc etc

But then I leave myself at the risk that come tournament day half the people didn't bring terrain and I'm scrambling to cover.


Basically I need to have it set up that the NEED to bring it, but find a way to say it so it seems nicer...


"Show off your beautifuil terrain!"

"Get even more marks for awesome conversions!"

ChaosCajun
21-05-2010, 01:16
Problem with making bringing terrain mandatory is it might drop off attendance to the point you can't cover the space rental. If you are concerned that giving discounted entry fees for bringing terrain is a problem, then you have to consider this as well.

If you have a regular gaming group, then perhaps together you have enough terrain to cover or could decide to spend a certain amount to cover the difference and just add that into overhead for the tournament. Participants will pay for it and then you or your club own it. Future tournaments can use the extra money to expand terrain or prize categories. I'm not sure what fees and prizes players in your area are used to, but making it clear that it's a new day and if any tournament is to be had, then this is what needs to be done. Most players, particularly tournament players, will understand paying a bit more or having fewer prizes given out, since there are now no GW personnel running the tourney.

meneroth
21-05-2010, 03:05
well it sounds like there is an option in the people who got fired or the GW people. i have VERY little experience with GW staff b/c of where i live/my job but you could ask for some sort of sponsership type deal and work with them or you could go the other way and talk to the guys who got fired and ask them to be co-partners in your tourney organization. seems like they have experience in the area and running a tourny outside of GW control will probably be attractive to them. this i would say is your best bet.

failing that i would try and get a group of players together and form a "club" of dedicated gamers and start running small tourneys and terrain building workshops. slowly build up the group, find a good location where you can play (churches/rec centers are pretty cheap to rent out) and once you have a few dedicated partners then try for the big 40-50 people tourneys. it just seems like it would be too much for you to do on your own. this of course would be a long term plan and you would have to wait a while before you have the people to do one of the big tourneys.

Dungeon_Lawyer
21-05-2010, 03:20
Well I guess you could have it going along with the player... would kind of add to the tactical part of it, but I agree there would have to be strict rules to stop abuse (size and type).

Maybe terrain comes with you but you randomize it at the start of the game with your opponent so you would have no idea if you would use it or not.


Terrain getting damaged is a risk, but I don't think stealing is.

Hiding a tower in your coat is much harder than a hero model tucked away in a pocket while you were turning in your score sheet/getting lunch/going to the bathroom.


Edit: The tournament would also be one day so you wouldn't have to leave it there over night or anything.

Just make so that if you bring some terrain to help the tourney you get bonus points added to your overall score. +1 point per terrain piece maybe? but cap it at like 5 points or so, so someone does not get all crazy.

You could also try contacting GW for tournament organizing support--perhaps they could provide prize support in the form of terrain that you could then give out to players (or keep for yourself);)

Lord Inquisitor
21-05-2010, 03:24
But then I leave myself at the risk that come tournament day half the people didn't bring terrain and I'm scrambling to cover
Like I said, I would recommend making a large volume of really cheap (if naff) terrain with some simple polystyrene hills, felt rivers and twig forest, enough for a worst-case scenario, and then if you don't have enough you can make do.

I can't stress approaching GW and other companies for sponsorship enough. It may free up entrance fees for terrain costs.

Kalist
21-05-2010, 11:54
What if, instead of providing points for bringing terrain, you had awards for the best terrain pieces at the tournament? The entry fees from 50 players should let you have quite a few prizes so why not advertise prizes for the best forest, building, wood, and pond (or something like that)? Then get people who wish to participate in this to indicate which category they are going to enter (maybe make it max of 2 categories per person) some time prior to the tournament so you'll have a good idea of just how much terrain people will be bringing. Might be a cool incentive for people to bring and show off some of their work.