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Tak
20-05-2010, 20:49
I have a question about the Thousand Sons book.


In Thousand Sons, there are a couple of scenes where Leman Russ seems to have pretty potent psychic potential.
Thousand Sons, for a large distance around, are suddenly forced to their knees by some kind of psychic shockwave that completely disorientates them.
One of the Thousand Sons looks to his battle-brother and says something along the lines of "what was that?" The battle-brother looks in a particular direction and answers this question by saying "The Wolfking".

Is Leman Russ a psyker then? I didn't think he was.

MrSatan
20-05-2010, 20:54
I have a question about the Thousand Sons book.


In Thousand Sons, there are a couple of scenes where Leman Russ seems to have pretty potent psychic potential.
Thousand Sons, for a large distance around, are suddenly forced to their knees by some kind of psychic shockwave that completely disorientates them.
One of the Thousand Sons looks to his battle-brother and says something along the lines of "what was that?" The battle-brother looks in a particular direction and answers this question by saying "The Wolfking".

Is Leman Russ a psyker then? I didn't think he was.

AFAIK all the of the primarch's had some sort of psyker potential, some more that others but they all had some latent power.

I always took that part of the book as Russ making his arrival and the psykic 'attack' was made by the wolf priests he probably had with him.

Mánagarmr
20-05-2010, 20:56
What I took from that part, was that his anger was so powerful it created a disturbance in the warp.

I've never personally seen another source that ever made note of Leman Russ being a psyker; or a potent one mind you. It's possible as they are the sons of the Emperor, that they all have latent abilities.

sabreu
20-05-2010, 21:04
They are fundamentally made of the Emperor's genetics infused with the warp. Literally infused with the warp. This gave all the Primarchs a good deal of their physical traits and abilities, plus in some it manifested in odd powers (Corax' 'invisibility', Konrad Cruze/Sanguinius future sight, Russ' hulk smash, Mortarion's poison adaptability, and I don't think I need to mention Magnus...).

If the Primarchs had rules for this edition of 40k, they would all have an obligatory 'Psyker' characteristic.

Lothlanathorian
20-05-2010, 21:07
Also, it was said Russ could guide ships through the Warp.

Mánagarmr
20-05-2010, 21:12
Also, it was said Russ could guide ships through the Warp.

All Primarchs can though. It's mentioned in the Dark Angels HH novels and the first Ragnar omnibus.

So it reinforces the idea that they all had some "power" to speak of - even if they couldn't crush a titan with their mind. :D

Heru26
20-05-2010, 21:38
Yeah I think it's something more primal than a cultivated psychic ability. He probably didn't deliberately send out an attack through the warp, but his anger and hatred permeated through and hit those with some kind of warp affinity like a sledge hammer. The guiding his ships through the warp probably come as a hunters intuition for direction mixed with his connection to the warp on a subconscious level.

Xisor
20-05-2010, 22:13
On reading the relevant passages of A Thousand Sons I definitely came away with the idea that Russ was a psyker. Not of Magnus' prowess or discipline (or magnitude), but nevertheless still powerful in a raw sense. It was the psychic scream that gave him away, as I recall...

Captain Stern
20-05-2010, 22:17
Yes they're all psykers. Of course, whether the noobs who write the HH novels know this is another matter.

Tak
20-05-2010, 22:32
Yes they're all psykers. Of course, whether the noobs who write the HH novels know this is another matter.

Well I do recall in Fulgrim a bit that states quite clearly that Fulgrim himself had never manifested any psychic abilites at all and Graham McNiell wrote that who seems to know his stuff.

Captain Stern
20-05-2010, 22:35
Well I do recall in Fulgrim a bit that states quite clearly that Fulgrim himself had never manifested any psychic abilites at all and Graham McNiell wrote that who seems to know his stuff.

Obviously he doesn't. He's always been one of the worst offenders in my opinion.

Son of Sanguinius
20-05-2010, 23:07
Personal theory time! It's like story time only with more bias and narrow-mindedness.

I think the Emperor locked away souls of near god-like power within the Primarchs. Perhaps with mental seals and wards that protected them from demons and themselves, to a degree. After all, when Ferrus dies, tremendous energy is released. When Ahriman looks at the soul of Leman Russ, he describes it as a supernova. The demon within the Sword of the Laer could only possess Fulgrim when he submitted to it.

For those of you that read or watch Naruto, Naruto's possession by the Kyuubi is the closest example I can compare my theory to. Which, when seen in the light cast by the comment from Erebus that the Emperor stole something from the chaos gods, seems all the more intriguing a comparison.

Chaplain of Chaos
20-05-2010, 23:30
I think since they are in part the genetic children of the Emperor (who is an immortal psychic being of untold power.) They all are a synergy of warp energy and mortal flesh blended by the science of the Emperor. Like the Eldar they are beings that exist more in touch with the realm of Chaos.

This is why I imagine why the Chaos Gods invested their power in Horus. It makes sense to me that just the raw rage of Lemon Russ would bleed into the warp with deadly effects to any nearby psykers.

sabreu
21-05-2010, 00:06
Well I do recall in Fulgrim a bit that states quite clearly that Fulgrim himself had never manifested any psychic abilites at all and Graham McNiell wrote that who seems to know his stuff.

He doesn't have to manifest psychic powers to be a psyker. Remember, your talking about a guy who choked an Avatar to death. :shifty:

Seriously though, as has been stated before, not all of the Primarchs showed psychic powers outright but they all were innately psychic. Guilleman, Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturabo, Lorgar, etc never flew, turned invisible, shot electricity out of their hands, or mental blasted a titan from the sky but by nature of their birth were capable of great feats. The fact that they never found a means to harness that power is more likely due to not discovering their talent. Magnus was raised on the planet of sorcerors, Mortarion talent had to manifest immediately simply to survive his world, Corax learned how to turn invisible, the future sight came unpredictably to Cruze and Sanguinius, and the Wolfking hulked-raged. I'd be surprised if Angron hasn't done that at some point in his life.


I think the Emperor locked away souls of near god-like power within the Primarchs. Perhaps with mental seals and wards that protected them from demons and themselves, to a degree. After all, when Ferrus dies, tremendous energy is released. When Ahriman looks at the soul of Leman Russ, he describes it as a supernova. The demon within the Sword of the Laer could only possess Fulgrim when he submitted to it.

For those of you that read or watch Naruto, Naruto's possession by the Kyuubi is the closest example I can compare my theory to. Which, when seen in the light cast by the comment from Erebus that the Emperor stole something from the chaos gods, seems all the more intriguing a comparison.

That actually sounds really cool. Daemons given flesh and raised as men for the betterment of mankind.

Wait a minute...wasn't that the plot for that Dragonball movie? :wtf:

Son of Sanguinius
21-05-2010, 00:48
We don't speak of such things. That movie does not exist. If you mention it again, the Callidus assassin that is masquerading as the lamp in your room will fulfill its duties.

sabreu
21-05-2010, 00:50
We don't speak of such things. That movie does not exist. If you mention it again, the Callidus assassin that is masquerading as the lamp in your room will fulfill its duties.

But the similarities are so.....

khirsath
21-05-2010, 03:20
I believe that ATS also states elsewhere that the Emperor created something never seen before when he created the Primarchs. Which is why they are so special, unique, and powerful. I think only Magnus knew the truth.

My take is that Big E created what are essentially some of the greatest daemons in the universe. The Primarchs are beings of warp energy that can exist in the real world. Using his own psychic might the Emperor coalesced warp energies into very specific 'creatures'. Simultaneously he crafted bodies that could contain these beings within the material universe, so they had none of the instabilities of daemons. So all the Primarchs would be a class of their own, not really psychers, not really daemons. They manifested different abilities as the process to create them was, well, a little chaotic.

Magnus (and his brothers) was a being of the most blinding light to those with psychic abilities. Magnus survives his physical death. So does Sanguinus if you believe the Sanguinor is the warp side of the angel. Might be why Vulkan and Russ can give visions to their respective sons as they go about their scavenger hunts. It also explains how Horus' death was different than the rest. He had both aspects wiped out.

Rylanor
21-05-2010, 03:40
I believe that ATS also states elsewhere that the Emperor created something never seen before when he created the Primarchs. Which is why they are so special, unique, and powerful. I think only Magnus knew the truth.

My take is that Big E created what are essentially some of the greatest daemons in the universe. The Primarchs are beings of warp energy that can exist in the real world. Using his own psychic might the Emperor coalesced warp energies into very specific 'creatures'. Simultaneously he crafted bodies that could contain these beings within the material universe, so they had none of the instabilities of daemons. So all the Primarchs would be a class of their own, not really psychers, not really daemons. They manifested different abilities as the process to create them was, well, a little chaotic.

Magnus (and his brothers) was a being of the most blinding light to those with psychic abilities. Magnus survives his physical death. So does Sanguinus if you believe the Sanguinor is the warp side of the angel. Might be why Vulkan and Russ can give visions to their respective sons as they go about their scavenger hunts. It also explains how Horus' death was different than the rest. He had both aspects wiped out.

Sidenote: when Ahriman feeds Othere Wyrdmake to the Warp predators after their duel, his heqa staff turns black. I figured this was because Othere's soul had been devoured and he had died on a level that most beings normally don't. You mentioned Horus' death as being unique, and I think it was-- would Wyrdmake's be unique too? I just thought it interesting. How many other occurances of "soul-death" in battle are there, besides Horus'?

khirsath
21-05-2010, 05:31
I'd say Othere's death wasn't that unique. Psykers get there souls devoured by warp creatures and daemons all the time. Being devoured means that in some manner their energy gets absorbed by whatever ate them. The Emperor utterly destroyed Horus so that there was nothing left of his warp-self. Though interestingly enough his body remained...?

Lothlanathorian
21-05-2010, 06:00
We don't speak of such things. That movie does not exist. If you mention it again, the Callidus assassin that is masquerading as the lamp in your room will fulfill its duties.

That wasn't a bad movie.




And souls being devoured is a common thing in 40K. Souls being destroyed is not. That's the difference, methinks, between Horus's end and that of so many others in the 40Kverse.

Iuris
21-05-2010, 06:59
I'll second the idea that the primarchs are essentially warp entities encased in mighty bio engineered vessels. By their nature, they are all psykers, however, they may not have been aware of it. A rare few used direct psychic powers, but EVERYONE of them showed a completely unnatural charisma, which must have been psyker based.

I would also point to constant allegations that the Emperor betrayed the chaos gods, or stole from them, when creating the primarchs. I think this may well have been true - at least to the extent that to warp entities, the entire warp is theirs and real world taking any power from the warp is considered stealing.

I don't think the primarchs were actually demons, though, or at least, not chaos demons. Rather, some existing non-alligned entities, maybe of zodiacal nature. And whether they were infused willingly into the primarchs, used to power the creation of synthetic warp entities or were just "mind wiped" before infusion, (or something else entirely...), is a point to consider.

Son of Sanguinius
21-05-2010, 07:27
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply they were demons with the Kyuubi reference.

I can certainly see what you're saying. Who knows? Maybe they are even Old Ones that had been claimed by the gods.

grissom2006
21-05-2010, 08:27
I have to say that i think all the Primarchs had some kind of pressence about them born of the warp. But i don't think that this means they are all Psykers. But that it explains why people would find themselves in complete awe of them and hard to look at directly for normal humans.

Karl MkVI
21-05-2010, 09:28
but the truth of the term "daemon" is simply "entity of the warp", so it is perfectly applicable.

secondly, the primarchs have all clearly been engineered using the powers of the warp, but this does not mean that they all have to manifest psychic talent; it may be latent, it may not be there at all. being a warp-manifestation, and actually manifesting tangible psychic powers, can be two very different things entirely.

and the idea that the primarchs are warp-entities is sound; aside from all the other given reasons, how about the fact that the Emperor was fighting fire with fire? with his knowledge of chaos, he created beings that could combat it, by using the vast power of the warp against itself; harnessing the power of the warp to create just about the most powerful physical beings possible.

In ATS, when Magnus breaks into the Chamber of the Golden Throne, the truth of how he really appears is exposed: as a raging warp-entity, unrecognizable to all but his father. maybe then, in truth, all the primarchs look like this, and their physical forms are mere projections*, much as some have claimed that the Emperor's physical form is a mere projection. it is often stated that they are unutterably awe-inspiring and difficult to look upon (even the ugly ones, like Angron :)); what power could make something so difficult to look at if not the power of the warp?

food for thought, eh?

*whether these projections are designed/implemented to make them 'acceptable' to normal humans, or for the sake of deception, or whatever else, who is to say? who knows if the primarchs, for the most part, even realise that their physical forms are 'false'?

FlashGordon
21-05-2010, 11:01
Do not know if it has been mentioned, Konrad Kurze can also use a psychic scream able to destroy lightbulbs.

Iuris
21-05-2010, 11:10
In ATS, when Magnus breaks into the Chamber of the Golden Throne, the truth of how he really appears is exposed: as a raging warp-entity, unrecognizable to all but his father. maybe then, in truth, all the primarchs look like this, and their physical forms are mere projections*, much as some have claimed that the Emperor's physical form is a mere projection. it is often stated that they are unutterably awe-inspiring and difficult to look upon (even the ugly ones, like Angron ); what power could make something so difficult to look at if not the power of the warp?

Amazingly, this also adequately explains why they fit through doorways, can disguise themselves as ordinary citizens and explains how their wargear relics can be used by normal sized people.

Always had it work that way myself :)

Karl MkVI
21-05-2010, 12:49
Amazingly, this also adequately explains why they fit through doorways, can disguise themselves as ordinary citizens and explains how their wargear relics can be used by normal sized people.

Always had it work that way myself :)

your point is perfectly valid, but due to your examples (doorways lol) I can't work out if you're being sarcastic!! :) :confused:

Askil the Undecided
21-05-2010, 14:03
Of course the dooways and relics thing could be explained by Gothic (oversized and elaborate) architecture and the fact most relics are used by Astartes (who are big, strong buggers, who are also somewhat oversized.)

Iuris
21-05-2010, 15:08
your point is perfectly valid, but due to your examples (doorways lol) I can't work out if you're being sarcastic!!

Dead serious. I've actually drawn a few illustrations, but haven't got around to scanning/photographing them yet. Actual illustrations of the trouble when trying to make everyone a head higher (that's actually pretty conservative, since everyone thinks they're even bigger).

Jonny_N
21-05-2010, 15:39
Do not know if it has been mentioned, Konrad Kurze can also use a psychic scream able to destroy lightbulbs.

Haha this actually made me laugh out loud. The Emperor designed that ability specifically with that in mind!

khirsath
21-05-2010, 20:12
When I mentioned Primarchs being Daemon-like I meant it in the generic warp-entity way, not the Chaos (capitol C) fashion. I like to think that the Emperor created their warp half out of pure energy from that dimension instead of capturing and mind-wiping an existing daemon. I also like to think their physical bodies existed as an anchor for their warp portions giving them stability in the physical world. Such powerful vessels would have an effect on how they are perceived, a kind of latent psychic power. I venture that Alpharius/Omegon had somewhat more control over the way they were perceived than most. Of all his sons, they had the trait of hiding their true selfs the most like dear old dad.

Side note, the inherent randomness of the formation process could also go some ways in explaining how a bunch of brothers don't look anything like each other.


Of course the dooways and relics thing could be explained by Gothic (oversized and elaborate) architecture and the fact most relics are used by Astartes (who are big, strong buggers, who are also somewhat oversized.)

Maybe its the other way around, all the Gothic architecture was made traditional so marines could fit through doorways and airlocks. You wouldn't want your Primarchs to have to stoop over when talking to mortals, it wouldn't seem regal... :p

Son of Sanguinius
21-05-2010, 21:35
These souls/demons must have been absurdly powerful, because once interred in a mortal shell, they are capable of felling entities like Eldar Titans and Kabandha singled handedly.

endless
21-05-2010, 23:00
Someone in another thread, and possibly on another forum, suggested that the nature of the Emperor's 'bargain' with the Chaos gods involved granting his genetic constructs souls, which is an idea which works very well with the established background. The 'reclaiming' of the Primarchs, their psychic power and the weakening of their bonds to the Emperor all fit with this idea. Don't ya think?

Edit: By souls I mean the investiture of certain aspects of the Emperor's own psychic existence and an independent existence forthwith, an ability otherwise only available to the gods. In essence creating the 'perfect' warp/real being, being a hybrid of warp energy and physical existence. The downside of the bargain was, well, 40k.

Heru26
21-05-2010, 23:13
Dead serious. I've actually drawn a few illustrations, but haven't got around to scanning/photographing them yet. Actual illustrations of the trouble when trying to make everyone a head higher (that's actually pretty conservative, since everyone thinks they're even bigger).

They're 7 feet tall on average, I hate it when writers get OTT and claim they're 10 feet tall, yes there will be some height variant but thats normal. Dan Abnett made me laugh in one of the guard books, possibly Double Eagle that some guy was tall. Now 2 metres is tall, 2 and a half metres is ridiculous.

As for the primarch warp entity projecting its image so that humans perceive them in a certain way like the emperor, it makes a whole lotta sense. Explaining the way that even though lemon rusk was a small primarch he could eat an entire fenrisian elk thing in one go and drink god knows how much ale, even though physics dictates it impossible no matter how strong and great you are. Also explains how the emperor could punch him in the head with a power claw to no ill effects barr being knocked out.

I like the concept the Emperor pissed off the gods by either tricking them to give him these 20 "souls" from the warp, or sneakily finding a loophole when making a deal with the devil to get them, hence earning their hatred by stealing 20 of the chaos gods greatest greater daemons.

I know the lost 2 primarchs are lost and its a narrative, nobody knows explanation, but it could be cool that the bodies forged for these mighty warp entities were somehow flawed and couldn't contain them.

It makes sense too that the primarchs were these all powerful beings that could achieve these acts of heroism because they may be shot, stabbed and burned etc, but that was to their projected image and not the actually raw soul they were, and so explaining why it takes huge amounts of damage or another primarch to end them. For example the relics the primarchs used were normal weapons, but they imbued them with a part of their essense, essentially using good "daemon" weapons, and when they died the part of their soul stored in the artefacts were still stored, giving them immense power and value.

And the Anathame managing to fell Horus. As it created poisons tailored to the person it stabbed, maybe it broke down Horus' body, allowing the defenses that kept the entity inside in check to be overcome and therefore he becomes even more powerful and would realise slowly what the emperor has done to him enslaving him all these years etc.

Anyway, as you can probably tell I like this theory immensely, and I'm warbling on like an idiot so I'll shut up now!

Hellebore
22-05-2010, 02:52
I'd say that the emperor figured out how to bind warp energy into a tailor made shell, just like how the eldar can put a soul in wraithbone.

He didn't manage it as well as the eldar (wraithbone is tougher and the soul rarely gets destroyed when the shell is destroyed), but he managed it well enough.

Hellebore

Flawed
22-05-2010, 05:14
I always took Leman Russ' scream as a writer's construct to help explain why Magnus didn't just blow him into atoms with his mind. It's explained a few times in the book the powers Thousand Sons use in combat. What was to stop them from slicing Russ apart on the atomic level, or stopping air getting into his lungs or a hundred other sneaky psychic tricks? Why you give Russ his own personal style of protection that fits well with the aggressive hunter, wolf arch type.

He's Russ. His defense isn't passive. Nothing about Russ is passive. His defense is aggressive. Hence a scream that makes psychics bleed from their eyeballs.

Stonerhino
22-05-2010, 06:58
I think the effect was simular to a localized "Shadow in the Warp". Russ' powerfull will refected in the Warp. Also it may be something inherent in the Canis helix. Ahriman's Tutelary fled when ever there was Fenris Wolves around.

Russ' anger sent out shock waves through the warp. Most psykers would have been bombarded and not able to handle it.

fudgebutt
22-05-2010, 08:28
The whole "some primarchs are psychic, some aren't" has got to be the hugest blunder in the entire HH series. I mean COME ON.

Dogface
22-05-2010, 17:28
I'll second the idea that the primarchs are essentially warp entities encased in mighty bio engineered vessels. By their nature, they are all psykers, however, they may not have been aware of it. A rare few used direct psychic powers, but EVERYONE of them showed a completely unnatural charisma, which must have been psyker based.

I would also point to constant allegations that the Emperor betrayed the chaos gods, or stole from them, when creating the primarchs. I think this may well have been true - at least to the extent that to warp entities, the entire warp is theirs and real world taking any power from the warp is considered stealing.

I don't think the primarchs were actually demons, though, or at least, not chaos demons. Rather, some existing non-alligned entities, maybe of zodiacal nature. And whether they were infused willingly into the primarchs, used to power the creation of synthetic warp entities or were just "mind wiped" before infusion, (or something else entirely...), is a point to consider.

Warp entities but not (initially) corrupt, of the same stuff of daemons but opposed ideologically...angels?

Sarevok
26-05-2010, 14:22
if Angron is a psyker
Khorne and the Worldeaters may have something to say about that

Karl MkVI
26-05-2010, 15:13
if Angron is a psyker
Khorne and the Worldeaters may have something to say about that

you're missing the point entirely; suggesting that the primarchs are composed of warp energy is completely different to saying that they are psykers. some of them are psykers, some aren't; that much is already patently obvious. what those engaging in this discussion are suggesting, is that all the primarchs are, at base level, composed at least partially of warp energy. Khorne wouldn't be remotely bothered by that now, would he? seeing as he's a Being of the warp an' all...


Warp entities but not (initially) corrupt, of the same stuff of daemons but opposed ideologically...angels?

interesting analogy:). however, we must remember that warp energy unto itself is at no point necessarily corrupted. Chaos is corrupt; the warp is just energy. there is no reason to suggest that the energy that the Emperor used was necessarily corrupted. it was the Primarchs' personalities (the Primarchs themselves, if you like) that became corrupted. under those terms, the power used to create them could be termed as 'neutral', after a fashion.

only when we begin to question the nature of the Emperor's pact with the powers of the warp can we begin to wonder just what kind of energy was harnessed; the possibilities are many, if not endless.


The whole "some primarchs are psychic, some aren't" has got to be the hugest blunder in the entire HH series. I mean COME ON.

... why?

gwarsh41
26-05-2010, 15:21
What I took from that part, was that his anger was so powerful it created a disturbance in the warp.

I've never personally seen another source that ever made note of Leman Russ being a psyker; or a potent one mind you. It's possible as they are the sons of the Emperor, that they all have latent abilities.

I like this idea. Perhaps Russ has an aura of power that is always on unknowingly. All of the primarchs seem to have the ability to give the warriors strength with simply being around them. Perhaps Russ has honed that "leader" ability to the point where he can drive his enemies to the knee by sheer presence.

Son of Sanguinius
26-05-2010, 18:25
I like this idea. Perhaps Russ has an aura of power that is always on unknowingly. All of the primarchs seem to have the ability to give the warriors strength with simply being around them. Perhaps Russ has honed that "leader" ability to the point where he can drive his enemies to the knee by sheer presence.

This has always been a concept that I've liked.

I see the Primarchs as individuals with tremendously strong (probably engineered or stolen) souls. Either because of the nature of their souls or some type of ward the Emperor has created, they can summon and sense power without (usually) being able to intentionally manipulate it or see it.

More simply, Leman Russ wants to look imposing, so his soul's energy gives off an aura that makes him appear godlike. Sanguinius wants to throw a Bloodthirster, so his soul's energy bleeds into him and makes him ridiculously strong. Corax wants to remain hidden, so his soul's energy fogs the minds of others to his presence. They simply focus on the thing that they want to do physically, and their souls and genetically engineered bodies do the rest.

Iuris
27-05-2010, 13:27
That's kinda what I felt they did, yeah. Except maybe it's not so much what they want to do manifesting but the abilites being already inherent and the primarch learning how to use it.

Still, given I believe the primarchs are immensely powerful sould encased in superflesh vessels, the ability and the soul may well be one thing. Like, Corax doesn't hav etha bility to hide. He is the essence of hiding and that manifests itself in his personality and his abilities.

Also, while I'm sure all primarchs had these abilities, I'm not sure they themselves knew. I can clearly picture Russ denying that he's a witch himself to his dying day...

gwarsh41
27-05-2010, 15:20
Aangron wants to be angry... SO HE GETS REALLY REALLY MAD!!!
I like the thought of both the primarchs wanting to be something and becoming it. As well as the idea that they were pre-set with these, i guess, soul personalities. The emp made Corax to be hidden, made Aangron to be angry, made Russ to be the essence of awesome...
I would imagine he made Horus to be a leader, and it backfired.
Reading the HH books, I was under the impression that the primarchs personality reflected the planets they were on, which makes perfect sense. At the same time, I wonder if they were all placed on planets that would suit them. From my understanding it was either the chaos gods or the emp who shot the primarchs into space. If it was the gods then they intended them to land where they did.

Seriously, what if Sanguinus landed on Fenris?

SilentTraveler
27-05-2010, 17:06
IMO the Primarch project was an attempt by the emperor to re-create the process that led to his own creation. Essentially each primarch is a collection of souls that were forcibly reincarnated as a single entity in a bio-engineered shell. Each primarch would be capable of becoming a very strong psycher but with the exception of Magnus that talent was never formally developed in them so it either expressed either crudely (Russ's warp scream) or not at all.

What made Magnus different is that the Emperor actually spent time instructing him in the use of his abilities and did not do the same with the others.

borithan
27-05-2010, 17:33
I'll second the idea that the primarchs are essentially warp entities encased in mighty bio engineered vessels. By their nature, they are all psykers, however, they may not have been aware of it. A rare few used direct psychic powers, but EVERYONE of them showed a completely unnatural charisma, which must have been psyker based.I also suspect that much of their size is actually just an appearance created by their psychic presence. The Primarchs are often said to be much bigger than Space Marines, but in many casdes this doesn't make much sense. As one example, the Gauntlets of Ultramar were worn by whatsit... the Ultramarine one, but they still fit Marneus Calgar. Many of the older pictures show them (when they are shown) as not being outstandingly big (when compared to Space Marines). Instead I imagine it was more that their presence made them appear larger than they really were (there is confirmation of this kind of stuff happening in the Horus Heresy books, thought there is also apparent biomancy with actual physical size changes).



I would also point to constant allegations that the Emperor betrayed the chaos gods, or stole from them, when creating the primarchs. I think this may well have been true - at least to the extent that to warp entities, the entire warp is theirsExcept that it is said that the Emperor used the uncorrupted warp to create them, ie the same source he had access to, one which the Chaos Gods did not disturb.



They simply focus on the thing that they want to do physically, and their souls and genetically engineered bodies do the rest.Which sounds very much like a latent psyker. Yes some of them use psychic abailities knowingly and in a boosted fashion, but much of a Primarch's abilities are due to their warp-infused nature, which, in my mind, makes them a form of psyker.

Son of Sanguinius
27-05-2010, 18:06
Reading the HH books, I was under the impression that the primarchs personality reflected the planets they were on, which makes perfect sense. At the same time, I wonder if they were all placed on planets that would suit them. From my understanding it was either the chaos gods or the emp who shot the primarchs into space. If it was the gods then they intended them to land where they did.

Seriously, what if Sanguinus landed on Fenris?

What indeed.

Mortarion, who represents the inevitability of death and the overthrow of establishment, lands on a planet with despotic overlords.

Leman Russ, who represents nearly unmatchable fury caged in a noble shell, lands on a planet of barbarians and wolves.

Vulkan, who represents the inner fire and a love of smithing, lands on a volcanic moon.

Angron, who represents unmatchable fury in a shell with a broken latch on it, lands on a planet that exhibits gladiators.

Coincidence? ;)

Horus_Lupercal
27-05-2010, 18:06
all i know is that part of the story is bad ass!! "ITS THE WOLFKING!!!!!" time to start running while dropping gernades on slow fuse. :)

gwarsh41
27-05-2010, 18:18
all i know is that part of the story is bad ass!! "ITS THE WOLFKING!!!!!" time to start running while dropping gernades on slow fuse. :)

I am getting tempted to jump ahead a few books to read that one. I am on fulgrim right now and am DYING to read about leman russ.

eldaran
27-05-2010, 19:20
I am getting tempted to jump ahead a few books to read that one. I am on fulgrim right now and am DYING to read about leman russ.

It's an alright bit - it doesn't portray him in a particularly flattering light, but that's to be expected from a book written from the point of view of the thousand suns.

I'm just waiting for Prospero Burns *rubs hands together* it's gonna be good...

Lupe
27-05-2010, 22:06
Seriously, what if Sanguinus landed on Fenris?

To be honest, that would only be a problem if you subscribe to the same - and at the time, reasonably scientific - approach to genetics as Frank Herbert. That is to say, if you believe that the genes carried within themselves a individual's personality.

Nowadays, it's been pretty much proven that upbringing is more important than genes in determining what kind of personality a child will develop. So, if the Fenrisians could get past the wings, Sanguinius would have been a boisterous berzerker instead. Or Magnus, a personification of death and decay's inevitability. Or Angron a shrewd strategist and statesman on Macraggae.

N0-1_H3r3
27-05-2010, 22:52
To be honest, that would only be a problem if you subscribe to the same - and at the time, reasonably scientific - approach to genetics as Frank Herbert. That is to say, if you believe that the genes carried within themselves a individual's personality.

Nowadays, it's been pretty much proven that upbringing is more important than genes in determining what kind of personality a child will develop. So, if the Fenrisians could get past the wings, Sanguinius would have been a boisterous berzerker instead. Or Magnus, a personification of death and decay's inevitability. Or Angron a shrewd strategist and statesman on Macraggae.
Except that the Primarchs are more than just their genetics, in a setting where the Warp changes many assumptions. Remember, the Primarchs were scattered through the Warp to the worlds they grew up on... from that point of view, divorced from matters of science, it makes sense that the Primarchs and the worlds they found themselves on would have some connection beyond mere coincidence.

Lupe
27-05-2010, 23:01
Well, yes, the Warp is a bastard to factor in. But then again, it's either the whole planet of origin defining the primarchs' traits, or the primarchs' inherent Warp presence guiding them instinctively towards a suitable planet to fit their pre-nascent personalities. Either way, the outcome seems to be the same, no matter how you shuffled the same batch of twenty infants on the same batch of twenty planets.

I'd go for the former, and blame the differences in geneseed on the primarchs' bodies and metabolisms making generations long evolutionary leaps in a matter of years in order to adjust to their native environments. It just seems simpler, has less loose ends, and allows for all the primarchs to start out with the same theoretical potential and power, just manifested in different ways.

gwarsh41
27-05-2010, 23:16
It's an alright bit - it doesn't portray him in a particularly flattering light, but that's to be expected from a book written from the point of view of the thousand suns.

I'm just waiting for Prospero Burns *rubs hands together* it's gonna be good...

I was pretty mad when I found out how long I have to wait for it.

Askil the Undecided
31-05-2010, 06:25
Have none of you consindered that the gods placed the primarchs in these places to ensure they would be nurtured into a very disparate bunch among whom rivalries could form, kinda like handing baby Magnus "sorcery for dummies," Guilliman a book of accounts, Vulkan an anvil, Corax a copy of Splinter Cell, Dorn a pair of boxing gloves and Russ a horn of mead and a manowar CD?

Further it might just have been to expose the young Primarchs who without the early guidance of the big E could be more easily manipulated to the point where half of them might side with Chaos in a kind of oh I don't know... Heresy, at some point down the line?

Iuris
31-05-2010, 06:45
...and Russ a horn of mead and a manowar CD
Damn it, you almost made me LOL at work...

Harwammer
31-05-2010, 15:03
Here is one of my theories:

Concept: The way I see it is human thoughts/emotions generate a response in the warp. In this sense the warp is a reflection of reality, but it is not neccesarily a reflection of distance or time. As such two beings with a similar emotional state would be very close in the warp even if they are very distant from each other in the galaxy.

Manufacture: The Emperor used power from the warp to develop his Primarchs and each different primarch was focused around a different aspect of the warp's power. As such the primarchs were individually predisposed to their different personalities from the day they were created.

Distribution: The hugely focused amount of warp power in each primarch gave them a strong affinity to anything generating a similar power. Once they were taken into the warp by the gods as children, it is only to be expected that they would surface on a world that had a similar warp reflection to themselves.

In fact, as adults Primarchs seemed able to navigate the warp; perhaps it was the primarchs who distributed themselves through the galaxy as children; each one chosing a world they found most appealing?

abcdoremon
13-06-2010, 08:17
ONLY Sanguinius and Magnus are psykers by nature because these boys are tainted by mutation when they are snatched away from the Emperor Labs. That's why Sanguinius had wings and Magnus became a red giant. The other primarchs are also affected by the powers of the Warp but not so severe.

After Horus had pledged himself to Chaos, he received blessings from all Chaos Gods, including Tzeentch, and of course could use psychic abilities.

The others primarchs are more like the Custodes. They have great mental powers and protection against psychic attacks but they are NOT psykers and cannot use psychic abilities.

Some of the primarchs even hate psychic powers and don't want librarians in their legions, such as Mortarion and Leman Russ. Therefore, it's safe to guess that these primarchs are not psykers.

Finally, the Emperor created the primarchs to be the greatest, strongest, and PUREST warriors ever. It's unlikely that the Big E would add mutation to them to make them psykers.

DantesInferno
13-06-2010, 12:57
Some of the primarchs even hate psychic powers and don't want librarians in their legions, such as Mortarion and Leman Russ. Therefore, it's safe to guess that these primarchs are not psykers.

Why would you assume that they would be aware of the hypocrisy of their opposition to psykers?


Finally, the Emperor created the primarchs to be the greatest, strongest, and PUREST warriors ever. It's unlikely that the Big E would add mutation to them to make them psykers.

Because the abilities to latently channel warp energy to make yourself stronger, faster and tougher are ones which you would not want your new super-warriors to have? I just don't follow your point here.

abcdoremon
15-06-2010, 15:38
Why would you assume that they would be aware of the hypocrisy of their opposition to psykers?

From the holy and sacred texts of Lexicanum: "The Librarian training schemes were created by Magnus the Red, a powerful psyker in his own right, along with some of the other Primarchs, although the rest were completely against using psykers in the Space Marine legions, most notably Leman Russ, Corax, Rogal Dorn and Mortarion" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Librarian)

Don't know why Corax hate psykers but Dorn's righteousness and Russ's martial honour are enough reasons. And Mortarion knows first-hand the price of sorcery from the necromancer lord who adopted him.

Except from Sanguinius, Magnus and Horus, I've never heard any primarch demonstrating any kind of psychic powers during the great crusade (if you don't count Night Haunter's visions as a passive psychic power). So most of them may not be psykers.




Because the abilities to latently channel warp energy to make yourself stronger, faster and tougher are ones which you would not want your new super-warriors to have? I just don't follow your point here.

Careful. That way of thinking usually leads to heresy and darkness :evilgrin:

If I were a primarch, better 100 normal space marines I can trust than 1000 librarians I can't

Besides, I don't think psychic power is a MUST for super-warriors. There is no such thing as a Custode using psychic power but they are still the best warriors the Emperor ever created. Their "magic" may just be powerful faith-based abilities like that of the Battle Sisters.

Finally, it was the Emperor himself who banned the use of psychic powers following the Council of Nikaea. Is it inconsistent for the Master of Mankind to willingly create a psychic army and then forbid it to use psychic power?

DantesInferno
15-06-2010, 23:24
From the holy and sacred texts of Lexicanum: "The Librarian training schemes were created by Magnus the Red, a powerful psyker in his own right, along with some of the other Primarchs, although the rest were completely against using psykers in the Space Marine legions, most notably Leman Russ, Corax, Rogal Dorn and Mortarion" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Librarian)

Don't know why Corax hate psykers but Dorn's righteousness and Russ's martial honour are enough reasons. And Mortarion knows first-hand the price of sorcery from the necromancer lord who adopted him.

I'm perfectly aware that there were Primarchs who were opposed to having psykers in the Legions - my point was that that's not inconsistent with those same Primarchs being latent psykers themselves - having the subconscious ability to channel warp energy.


Except from Sanguinius, Magnus and Horus, I've never heard any primarch demonstrating any kind of psychic powers during the great crusade (if you don't count Night Haunter's visions as a passive psychic power). So most of them may not be psykers.

Well, as others have pointed out in the thread: in A Thousand Sons Russ appears to use an ability that is like a warp scream; Corax has a power that lets him cloud others' minds to functionally become invisible; and Fulgrim can apparently beat an Avatar to death with his bare fists in a way reminiscent of the old Librarian power "Iron Arm". Not to mention all the other superhuman feats carried out by the various Primarchs.

Not all psychic powers are necessarily the conscious "shooting lightning from the fingertips" kind.


Careful. That way of thinking usually leads to heresy and darkness :evilgrin:

If I were a primarch, better 100 normal space marines I can trust than 1000 librarians I can't

Perhaps, but no one really knew the dangers of Chaos corruption at the time of the Great Crusade (or it was considered a necessary evil in order to conquer the galaxy).

And once the dangers of the Daemonic became evident, the value in having warp-based powers with which to fight them became very apparent indeed.


Besides, I don't think psychic power is a MUST for super-warriors. There is no such thing as a Custode using psychic power but they are still the best warriors the Emperor ever created. Their "magic" may just be powerful faith-based abilities like that of the Battle Sisters.

And what do you think the Battle Sisters' powerful faith-based abilities are?

There are possible explanations of the effectiveness of things like sanctified aquilas, the miracles performed by the faithful, and so on, which don't rely on the idea that the Emperor is an interventionist God who makes these sort of things happen. For a start, the "miracles" could be psychic events caused by the latent powers of the believers. So on this explanation, if a priest holds up an aquila to ward off a daemon, it's actually the priest's latent and subconscious psychic power which causes the daemon to stop, not the fact that some conscious warp god has looked down and made it happen.

For discussions of this, see these threads:
1. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100839)
2. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82288)
3. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222894)
4. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251002)
5. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133674)


Finally, it was the Emperor himself who banned the use of psychic powers following the Council of Nikaea. Is it inconsistent for the Master of Mankind to willingly create a psychic army and then forbid it to use psychic power?

Yes, of course it's inconsistent. Does that mean he didn't do it? Of course not. He's a politician, for gods' sake...

Besides, there's already hypocrisy in the Emperor's decision to ban psykers at Nikaea - remember that he himself was a powerful psyker.

Xisor
15-06-2010, 23:33
There's nuance to it, obviously. Legislative nuance, mainly. Amongst other things, the primarchs and Astartes are also supposed to be pretty damn intelligent. It'd not be surprising to see them be able to 'logic' or 'rules lawyer' with the best of them without formal training.

With that in mind, and picking up on the potential insinuation that Russ knew full well what he was doing in 'going after Magnus and the Sons', it's really no unthinkable that Russ'd be a fully fledged psyker. Possibly disciplined. It's noted he affects the air of a barabarian, why not affect the air of an uncontrolled psyker now and then. Better than being caught out as a knowing psyker and not being able to plead (or at least argue a tenuous case for) ignorance...

abcdoremon
16-06-2010, 13:51
Well, as others have pointed out in the thread: in A Thousand Sons Russ appears to use an ability that is like a warp scream; Corax has a power that lets him cloud others' minds to functionally become invisible; and Fulgrim can apparently beat an Avatar to death with his bare fists in a way reminiscent of the old Librarian power "Iron Arm". Not to mention all the other superhuman feats carried out by the various Primarchs.

Well I don't take the stuffs of Black Library novels as canon but if you put it that way, are you sure all those abilities are PSYCHIC by nature? A normal shout of a primarch may be a deafening roar to a space marine, a mere punch of a primarch may be seen as an earth-shattering blow by lesser beings. I agree in this case Corax might have psychic powers.

Space marines may see their primarchs performing a physical feat and interpret it as magic or sorcery. Primarchs don't need to be psykers to achieve superhuman feats, they are already perfect in every aspect, physically and mentally.



And what do you think the Battle Sisters' powerful faith-based abilities are?


Are Battle Sisters psykers now? :D If so, then the Ordo Hereticus should find another chamber militant.

When I said "faith-based abilities", I mean something like Saint Celestine returning to life after being killed. If this ability is psychic then the most powerful psyker in the galaxy - the Emperor may return to us.

Here are some other "faith-based abilities" if you need to know:

Codex Witch Hunters (3rd Edition)

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith (not "psychic" but similar)

* Hand of the Emperor: Increases strength of a unit
* Divine Guidance: Increases damage done from ranged attacks
* The Passion: Increases speed of a unit
* Light of the Emperor: Makes a unit fearless
* Spirit of the Martyr: Protects the unit from attacks

And may the Emperor protect you if you think the Custodes are psykers




Yes, of course it's inconsistent. Does that mean he didn't do it? Of course not. He's a politician, for gods' sake...

Besides, there's already hypocrisy in the Emperor's decision to ban psykers at Nikaea - remember that he himself was a powerful psyker.

The Emperor knew Magnus were a psyker. But he didn't know Magnus and his legion practiced sorcery. Only after he learned about this secret did he hold the Council of Nikaea and ban sorcery, but he still allowed the existing librarians to continue their services. So I think the Emperor didn't want to create psychic marines in the first place. He just wanted his primarchs and their conquering armies to be strong in body and pure in mind

Lupe
16-06-2010, 17:36
Acts of Faith, to be quite honest, smells a lot like sorcery to me.

A non psyker performing a supernatural through the favor of a warp entity. The only difference being it's not Tzeentch or one of the other Chaos Gods, but the Emperor who bestows the miracle...

I suppose a near death experience followed by being locked in the Golden Throne for ten thousand years with no other way to influence the fate of the Imperium would make even the Emperor change his mind about the use of sorcery. And why not, after all... if it keeps religious fanatics from turning their attention to Chaos... I'm sure another Lorgar incident would be slightly more harmful in the long run than sanctioned sorcery...

DantesInferno
17-06-2010, 00:07
Well I don't take the stuffs of Black Library novels as canon but if you put it that way, are you sure all those abilities are PSYCHIC by nature? A normal shout of a primarch may be a deafening roar to a space marine, a mere punch of a primarch may be seen as an earth-shattering blow by lesser beings. I agree in this case Corax might have psychic powers.

See the discussion in this thread. Russ apparently let out a psychic shockwave that stunned the Thousand Son sorcerers in the area. Corax was able to influence the minds of others to effectively turn invisible. You can try to explain these as purely physical abilities if you want, but it seems like a massive stretch. Particularly given that we know of other Primarchs that exhibited active psychic powers as well (Sanguinius, Night Haunter, Magnus).

Also, BL novels are "canon".


Space marines may see their primarchs performing a physical feat and interpret it as magic or sorcery. Primarchs don't need to be psykers to achieve superhuman feats, they are already perfect in every aspect, physically and mentally.

Or more likely, Marines may see their Primarchs performing a physical feat assisted by the unconscious use of latent psychic power and interpret it as a purely physical feat. We know this because most of the Marines didn't in fact see their Primarchs as magicians or sorcerers.


Are Battle Sisters psykers now? :D If so, then the Ordo Hereticus should find another chamber militant.

When I said "faith-based abilities", I mean something like Saint Celestine returning to life after being killed. If this ability is psychic then the most powerful psyker in the galaxy - the Emperor may return to us.

Here are some other "faith-based abilities" if you need to know:

Codex Witch Hunters (3rd Edition)

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith (not "psychic" but similar)

* Hand of the Emperor: Increases strength of a unit
* Divine Guidance: Increases damage done from ranged attacks
* The Passion: Increases speed of a unit
* Light of the Emperor: Makes a unit fearless
* Spirit of the Martyr: Protects the unit from attacks

Two points:
1) All humans have some degree of latent psychic ability, except for Untouchables and Pariahs. For many people it will never manifest, or might just be considered "luck".
2) How do you think the Battle Sisters' "faith-based" abilities work if they're not sourced from the warp? I don't want to overly derail this thread, but the earlier threads that I linked to in my previous post have pretty comprehensive investigations into the possible explanations of the Acts of Faith. Needless to say, the best explanation is that the Battle Sisters are, in the extremity of their religious fervour, collectively tapping into the warp.


And may the Emperor protect you if you think the Custodes are psykers

To be fair, we know next to nothing about the Custodes at the moment, so there's no knowing how their powers are sourced. They're almost definitely not conscious psykers, but there's nothing to prevent them having unconscious warp-based powers like, say, the Primarchs.


The Emperor knew Magnus were a psyker. But he didn't know Magnus and his legion practiced sorcery. Only after he learned about this secret did he hold the Council of Nikaea and ban sorcery, but he still allowed the existing librarians to continue their services. So I think the Emperor didn't want to create psychic marines in the first place. He just wanted his primarchs and their conquering armies to be strong in body and pure in mind

The result of the Council of Nikaea wasn't a ban on sorcery, it was a ban on the use of psykers among the ranks of the Astartes Legions. The Legions were ordered to close their Librarius departments.

Keep in mind that it was essentially a political decision - designed to maintain the loyalty of both the Legions who supported the use of psykers and those who opposed them (and it didn't do a great job maintaining the former).

It certainly doesn't tell us anything important about what the Emperor's motivations may have been when he created the Primarchs to begin with.

kamedake88
17-06-2010, 06:46
They are more then just psyker. All of them have a massive amount of warp energy in them. This notion is hard to flesh out but if you read Fulgrim, when he beheads Ferrus Manus some form of ill-explained energy erupts from his headless corpse. My guess is, becuase of the time they spent flying through the warp as test tube babies they were saturated with warp energy while still growing.

Son of Sanguinius
17-06-2010, 19:46
They are more then just psyker. All of them have a massive amount of warp energy in them. This notion is hard to flesh out but if you read Fulgrim, when he beheads Ferrus Manus some form of ill-explained energy erupts from his headless corpse. My guess is, becuase of the time they spent flying through the warp as test tube babies they were saturated with warp energy while still growing.

How did you arrive at this idea? I'm genuinely curious, as it's a theory I've never heard before.