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View Full Version : Starting out with Tzeentch, need some help!



Kroot Lord
22-05-2010, 13:06
With the new Daemonic releases scheduled in a few months, I'm looking to start a dual Fantasy/40k army using Tzeentch Daemons. I have never played Fantasy before, but I've read through the rulebook a few times and understand most of the rules.

The difficult part, for me, is finding an effective army list. I've heard that Daemons are excrutiatingly powerful (albeit that that's not the reason I chose them), so I'm hoping to balance that out a little by using a monodeity list, such as that of Tzeentch. Some things I'm wondering is:

1) Blue Scribes, are they worth it?
2) Heralds of Tzeentch, put them in a block of Horrors and give them all the added benefits, or go solo on a Disc or Chariot? How many should I take? What kind of upgrades? Should I focus 100% on magic/shooting, or should I also devote points towards combat prowess? It seems natural to forget combat and focus completely on the magic/shooting aspect.
3) Horrors, I was thinking three units of 30 in 2000 points. Is 30 too much or not enough? I wanted to upgrade all of the units with Musicians and Standard Bearers with the Icon of Sorcery, (leaving out the 2 attack Horror which costs a dozen points), and finally upgrade one unit to include the Changeling.
4) Flamers, I want a unit of 6! Are they worth it, or just point sinks?
5) Screamers, I have 5 at the moment, would this be an efficient unit, or would it be better to have 3 or 6 in a unit?

I'd probably start of with a 1500 point army, and hopefully I'll be able to expand that to 2000 points as soon as possible afterwards.

Thank you very much for reading this and any replies given!

Regards,

Dylan

w3rm
22-05-2010, 13:15
1) Blue Scribes, are they worth it?

I wouldnt know I have never used them.


2) Heralds of Tzeentch, put them in a block of Horrors and give them all the added benefits, or go solo on a Disc or Chariot? How many should I take? What kind of upgrades? Should I focus 100% on magic/shooting, or should I also devote points towards combat prowess? It seems natural to forget combat and focus completely on the magic/shooting aspect.

I think they are more flexible on a disc and I would keep them cheap. Maybe give them Flames of Tzeentch and a Disc.


3) Horrors, I was thinking three units of 30 in 2000 points. Is 30 too much or not enough? I wanted to upgrade all of the units with Musicians and Standard Bearers with the Icon of Sorcery, (leaving out the 2 attack Horror which costs a dozen points), and finally upgrade one unit to include the Changeling.

With Horrors the bigger the better.


4) Flamers, I want a unit of 6! Are they worth it, or just point sinks?

They are definatly worth it but a unit of 6 is a little over the top. Try 2 units of 3 or better yet 1 of 4

5) Screamers, I have 5 at the moment, would this be an efficient unit, or would it be better to have 3 or 6 in a unit?

I Think it would be better to keep the units large because they are very fraglie and can loose a lot of killing potentail vey quickly.



Heres a list I came up with not to long ago. I tired to make as friendly a Tzeentch list as I possibly could and I think I sucseeded. Tzeentch Daemons can be nasty but as long as you dont spam stuff.

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch- 405
MoT, Flames of Tzeentch, Winged Horror, Iridescent Corona

HoT- 225
Chariot of Tzeentch, Iridescent Corona, BSB

20 Horrors- 270
FC


20 Horrors- 270
FC


20 Horrors- 270
FC

10 Furies- 120

10 Furies- 120

10 Furies- 120

5 Screamers- 150

5 Screamers- 150

5 Screamers- 150

5 Screamers- 150

3 Flamers- 105

Total- 2505
PD- 10
DD- 6

Kroot Lord
22-05-2010, 18:07
Not really looking towards spending that much on Screamers of Tzeentch; I'm looking for a monodeity list without any Furies or such which don't have a dedicated allegiance. Finally, it 5 points over a 2500 point list; I'm looking more towards 1500 point lists, 2000 points at the most. Thanks for the help though!

Edit: didn't see the bold comments *facepalm*

Wouldn't it be better to give the Herald neither a disc nor a chariot, so that he may pass on the extra benefits a unit of Horrors gets when a Herald joins them?

Also, I heard Screamers are better in smaller units because they're more manouverable, allowing them to make optimum use of their fly by attack!

Gaargod
22-05-2010, 19:14
Just... ow.

Mono-Tzeentch is extremely harsh when played correctly. Its basically a magic gunline. Flamers are sickening (arguably, and i do argue so, the single best unit price:efficiency wise in the game). Horror blobs are very harsh, allowing you to bring multiple high level wizards to a game. Lords of change are great, kairos more so. Hell, even just plain old heralds of tzeentch break face.
I'd generally argue furies>screamers (due to price, basically), and take a good number in either case. They're there to march block stuff.

If you want to see a good daemon tzeentch gunline, just search it up.



Its also going to be nigh-on unviable in a couple of months. 2d6 power dice will leave you sitting there going 'wtf?'. The august release will you more models sure, but the hell will be pretty much nerfed out of the water.

Heimagoblin
22-05-2010, 19:36
The 2d6 power dice can be added to by the wizard level of each wizard e.g 2d6 roll of 7 +lv 4 lord of change+lv 2 herald+ 3 lv 1 horror blocks=16 power dice.

As for the list, you want tiny units of horrors, the odd flying foot level to dance to unthreatended horror units, as many flamers as you can get your hands on and a lord of change aswell as a blue scribe and many lv 2 heralds. That is if you are going for most effective build.

Kroot Lord
22-05-2010, 19:39
Why would the Daemon codex/Tzeentch units lose power? I assume it's because of 8th edition coming up very soon, but what is it exactly that will nerf the army book? From the 8th battle report write up in the General discussion area it seems that shooting, including gunline armies, would prove to be even more effective in 8th than in 7th.

Zaustus
22-05-2010, 22:03
That's not quite right, Heimagoblin. The power dice will be 2d6, and then roll a die for each wizard, and on a 6 you get one more die. Small units of horrors will give you a better chance of extra power dice, but nothing like it is now. Currently it's best to have big blocks of horrors, but I think that will be less effective come August.

A lot of the 8th changes have to do with combat, and Tzeentch daemons tend to avoid combat like the plague (except against war machines and maybe fast cav). The 2d6 PD will indeed nerf the army's magic, since they won't reliably have 19+ power dice, but more like 8 on average. That's a huge reduction in potential number of spells cast per turn. A Lord of Change will still be nasty, but the overall Tzeentch magic phase won't be nearly as abusive as it is now (which is a good thing).

It sounds like Flamers lose their 360 line of sight, but that's not so bad. Their shooting won't be affected, so they should still be a very powerful unit in 8th edition. Screamers might suffer from the additional small-arms fire that will exist due to firing in ranks... they're really pretty fragile against any focused shooting. Furies may be a better choice just for their lower cost.

Falkman
23-05-2010, 01:24
Putting Heralds on Discs is pretty much always a bad idea. You lose the ability to join units and you present a huge, vulnerable target to the enemy.
Heralds should either be on foot or in chariots. Chariots suffer from the same drawbacks as the Disc does but at least they break ranks (for now, not any more when 8th edition hits).
The absolute best bet is to have Heralds on foot and just give them the flight gift. This means they can chill out in their Horror units providing them a better save, while still retaining the option to fly out should a juicy target present itself to their spells.

I must say that I don't agree with the guys who say the new magic rules will make Tzeentch armies unviable. Sure, Horror spam won't be super effective anymore, but since all dice will be pool dice in the new edition, Heralds with Master of Sorcery will become absolute beasts.

I prefer my Horror units not too big, and the new rules will probably keep that as the better option. The only reason to take big units is if you want to access Bolt of Tzeentch, and while it's a good spell I think it's a bit too much to run three units of 30 Horrors, that is just too much points poured into units who live and die by one spell.

As has been said a couple of times, Flamers are probably the best unit in the game. Take as many as you want if you're looking for a competitive army, but realise that in a friendly game people are not going to like it if you bring more than 4-5.

Screamers are decent, their slashing attacks are great to pick on units without fear of retaliation, but they only have T3 and one wound, so they're very easy to kill off with just a little bit of shooting or magic.
I run a unit of 3 just for annoyance, much more isn't needed I think.

Agoz
23-05-2010, 06:04
The 2d6 power dice can be added to by the wizard level of each wizard e.g 2d6 roll of 7 +lv 4 lord of change+lv 2 herald+ 3 lv 1 horror blocks=16 power dice.

As for the list, you want tiny units of horrors, the odd flying foot level to dance to unthreatended horror units, as many flamers as you can get your hands on and a lord of change aswell as a blue scribe and many lv 2 heralds. That is if you are going for most effective build.

according to the rumors, its going to be 2d6 power dice, with a chance to get an extra power dice on a roll of six for every caster, casters add their caster level to their casting rolls, they don't get straight up power dice.

Kroot Lord
23-05-2010, 08:11
Agoz, if that's true that seems like magic will still be as powerful as in a Tzeentch army now as in 8th edition, there'd normally be about half a dozen casters, which would increase the amount of power dice. Right?

As for army compositions then, I think I'll get me an extra Screamer so I can run two units of 3 Screamers. I'd definitely be using 6 Flamers, purely because I know I'll have a dozen or so in my collection, for I'll be playing 40k with them too, and I'd like to use them!

How would this be to start off with?

Herald of Tzeentch,
20 Horrors, Musician, Standard Bearer with Icon of Sorcery and the Changeling
20 Horrors, Musician, Standard Bearer with icon of Sorcery
3 Flamers
3 Screamers

I have about 100 points left for upgrades on the Herald as well as to flesh out some of the units.

Thank you for your help guys!