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lord opium
23-05-2010, 17:05
Now I know that they aren't a widely used army and GW seems to have forgotton them (or purposely fading them out) but has anone thought about using them in 8th Ed?

I mean they have crossbowmen, which with 2 ranks will improve them and pikemen fighting in 6 ranks 1st and 2nd as per eveyone else and then the added pike bonus of 4. That means you could have 31 str 4 attacks with ASF when you are charged (30 man unit though).

Just some ideas, think of them what you will.

Cheers,

lord opium

Kalandros
23-05-2010, 20:49
Shouldn't be used, its too old a document to use in pickup games and tournaments.
In a friendly circle - go ahead.

Wednesday Friday Addams
23-05-2010, 20:51
I love it when people use dogs of war in tournaments.

Arkfatalis
23-05-2010, 20:56
Hey don't say that ! Alot of the older books are only slightly newer then DOW. Look at Ogres and Bretonnian army books. GW still supports them by selling the miniatures as people are still buying them. Most tournaments that aren't offical ones, do still allow DOW.

Commissar Vaughn
23-05-2010, 22:46
Shouldn't be used, its too old a document to use in pickup games and tournaments.
In a friendly circle - go ahead.

Oh aye, next you'll be telling me the Old Testament has a use by date.


In fact its just as valid as any other army book now.

Who cares how 8th ed treats us DOW players? We'll take 'em all on!

SPSchnepp2
23-05-2010, 23:20
Old? Ha! Wood Elves, Ogres, Bretonnians, they're all old. Just because you have to work a little harder at picking up the DoW/RoR books doesn't mean they shouldn't be used.

papabearshane
23-05-2010, 23:27
Im thinking of starting my DoW in 8th so im all for it

Ultimate Life Form
23-05-2010, 23:43
Dogs of War in 8th are a nice idea but while they made the transition to 7th smoothly I fear the list will likely be unplayable in 8th as it misses out on the system-wide errata that keep the other armies playable under the new rules.

You'll have quite a lot of explaining and haggling to do to convince your opponent that *your* interpretation of how they should be played is right, and I cannot imagine this being an enjoyable experience. It will probably take longer than the game itself so I'm not sure it warrants the trouble.

Sir_Turalyon
24-05-2010, 00:54
DoW list is as old as 6th edition and uses very little in way of special rules - most rules used by DOW is generic rules taken from main rulebook. Unlike Chaos Dwarfs they don't even use fancy rules like laping around or fancy units like Bull Centaurs - nothing stranger than regular Ogres, skirmishers, fast cavalary etc. Besides pikes that "fight in four ranks, require two hands, ASF in first turn", Paymaster "being BSB, causing panic and hatered" and Ogres being Ogre-sized infrantry everything in basic DoW list seems to be as generic and agreeable as possible. Even special rules for regiments of renown are simple - 4+ ward here, +1 to hit here, immune to psychology there. With possible exception of galloping guns (if rules for cannon change wording) DoW may transfer to 8th without needing an errata.

Asensur
24-05-2010, 01:04
DoW are dead, just accept it.

But hey! Have you listened about "Count As" rule? It's awesome but sadly many people don't use it.

The Empire (or another army) is calling you.

Kulgur
24-05-2010, 01:12
DoW list is as old as 6th edition and uses very little in way of special rules - most rules used by DOW is generic rules taken from main rulebook. Unlike Chaos Dwarfs they don't even use fancy rules like laping around or fancy units like Bull Centaurs - nothing stranger than regular Ogres, skirmishers, fast cavalary etc. Besides pikes that "fight in four ranks, require two hands, ASF in first turn", Paymaster "being BSB, causing panic and hatered" and Ogres being Ogre-sized infrantry everything in basic DoW list seems to be as generic and agreeable as possible. Even special rules for regiments of renown are simple - 4+ ward here, +1 to hit here, immune to psychology there. With possible exception of galloping guns (if rules for cannon change wording) DoW may transfer to 8th without needing an errata.

If there are indeed a large amount of extra magic items in the rulebook they may infact gain a little strength

someone2040
24-05-2010, 06:55
DoW are dead, just accept it.

But hey! Have you listened about "Count As" rule? It's awesome but sadly many people don't use it.

The Empire (or another army) is calling you.
No. Dogs of War are as valid an army as OK, Tomb Kings or Wood Elves. We'll stay proud to the fact we still play an outdated list that gets no support. If people want to play an empire army without halflings, dwarves, ogres, norsemen and pikes, they can. But we want to play a Dogs of War army, so we will.

Overall, it'll be very hard to kill off Dogs of War entirely. Pikes will be fine, as ASF and fighting in ranks are still in the rules.
The only issues I can see are units/characters that take up multiple slots. What percentage's do they come out of (All makes sense now with GW moving away from characters taking up multiple slots).

As for tactica. I personally feel, that 8th edition opens up new avenue's for the Dogs of War army.

With no rare restriction (other than doubling up and 25%), I feel Hotpots may find a place in the army. In 7th you need your rares for Asarnl, Truthsayer or Cannons, so a weaker stone thrower isn't so useful. But in 8th, might just be able to sneak one of these 50 point stone throwers in, especially if there's no guessing involved.

I think possibly regular Halflings as well will make a star appearance. BS 4 bowshots at 6 points a model is a nice deal along with shooting in 2 ranks.

More common magic items of course helps kitting out our characters. To be honest, it's not an advantage compared to other armies, but a boost to the army because we can mess around a bit more with magic items.

Pikemen I think will still be too pricey for what they give. They missed out on the infantry cost reduction that happened during 7th edition, so it's going to hurt them no matter what.

lord opium
24-05-2010, 09:07
Pikemen I think will still be too pricey for what they give. They missed out on the infantry cost reduction that happened during 7th edition, so it's going to hurt them no matter what.

What block infantry do you suggest then?

I reckon a unit or 2 of dwarves and some duelists and/or crossbowmen

Iron Sites
24-05-2010, 14:16
This army is fine as long as your gaming group allows you to use it.
It is a bit over priced though, however if it was reprinted I would most definatly buy the new book!
My group wont allow any usage of rules and\or books before 6th edition :-(

Lord Dan
24-05-2010, 17:07
I love them. Sure, they have weaknesses like low Ld, overpriced command models, and outdated rules for units that have had their respective army books updated.

Tournament worthy? We'll see with the new edition. However they already have some tournament worthy gems that many overlook:

Beorg Bearstruck and 9 bearmen with command costs 255 points. Each bearman costs 8 points, which is 72 points for the base unit. A musician is 10 points, and the special banner bearer costs at least the 10 points that is costs other units to take a standard. They have a banner giving the whole unit +1 to hit on the first round of combat. I'd argue this is comparable to the 40 or 50 point banner of the barrows for VC, though since it's only for the first round of combat in this case we'll call it's value 30 or so points.

So 72+10+10+30= 122
Out of a 255 point unit, that leaves 133 points left for the estimated cost of Beorg. This guy has S5, T5, WS5, W3, and 5 attacks with +1 to hit in the first round of combat. On top of this Chaos lord rivalling killing power he has a 4+ ward save. All for the low cost of 133 points. A 4+ ward alone costs 45 points in almost every army I can think of, which means that insanely good statline will run you 88 points.

You can do this with many regiments of reknown. Really this army is all about thinking outside the box. You don't have special rules to rely on, no crazy magic items or uber combos. It's raw skill and understanding of game mechanics and unit capability.

Think of the galloper guns, for instance. Crappy, overexpensive, light cannons, right? What if you didn't fire their main round at all? March them up turn 2 next to an enemy unit and grapeshot them. Run a unit of heavy knights directly at the unit so if they turn to face your cannons they'll risk getting charged in the flank. You can roll entire lines up this way.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

w3rm
24-05-2010, 23:50
DoW are dead, just accept it.

But hey! Have you listened about "Count As" rule? It's awesome but sadly many people don't use it.

The Empire (or another army) is calling you.

NEVER!!! We'll accept DoW are dead when the last PDF fades into exsitance! Until then you'll just have to deal with us!

someone2040
25-05-2010, 00:31
What block infantry do you suggest then?

I reckon a unit or 2 of dwarves and some duelists and/or crossbowmen
Well... pretty much. Our special slots take care of infantry (Like many armies, special slots are where all the good things are).
Dwarves are good, solid anvils. Like Dwarf Warriors, decent toughness, decent save.
Norsemen are good as well. Give them Great Weapons or flails, and they can be pretty nasty on the charge.
Beorg Beastruck and the Bearmen of Urslo like Lord Dan mentions are ace. Although they have problems when they come up against armour (Only so much Beorg can do on his own), they maul down 'ordinary' infantry.

I think about the only thing worse than Pikemen... are Halflings with spears! or the Paymaster's Bodyguard, they're also pretty bad (That's half a problem with Halberds on human units though).

Commissar Vaughn
25-05-2010, 07:49
This army is fine as long as your gaming group allows you to use it.
It is a bit over priced though, however if it was reprinted I would most definatly buy the new book!
My group wont allow any usage of rules and\or books before 6th edition :-(

Permission is not required, its not from before 6th edition.

Rhaivaen
25-05-2010, 16:47
Well... pretty much. Our special slots take care of infantry (Like many armies, special slots are where all the good things are).
Dwarves are good, solid anvils. Like Dwarf Warriors, decent toughness, decent save.
Norsemen are good as well. Give them Great Weapons or flails, and they can be pretty nasty on the charge.
Beorg Beastruck and the Bearmen of Urslo like Lord Dan mentions are ace. Although they have problems when they come up against armour (Only so much Beorg can do on his own), they maul down 'ordinary' infantry.

I think about the only thing worse than Pikemen... are Halflings with spears! or the Paymaster's Bodyguard, they're also pretty bad (That's half a problem with Halberds on human units though).

Why the negatives on pikemen? I have succesfully used a unit of Leopolds Leopards Company to tackle a unit of Dark Elf Black Ark Corsairs.. broke them and they ran..
14 pikes asf + 5 attacks from the hero killed 10+ on the first melee, so i think they did fine for what they are worth.

Also, the hero in such units of renown they dont cost any space in regular hero slots, but on the other hand, they are basicly equipped and cant leave their units, but the unit did fine, and i think in my case the Ricco's Republican guard would have done better with ws+1 higher and heavy armor instead of light...
I am not sure what good a basic unit of pikemen would do in comparison to the reg. or renown ones though...

Kalandros
25-05-2010, 17:00
Permission is not required, its not from before 6th edition.

Its not an army book, its a supplement collection of PDFs - Games Workshop has abandoned support to it.

bluemage
25-05-2010, 17:18
Your right. Games workshop has compeletly abandoned them, which is why still sells some of the models on their website, right? Games workshop wrote the rules for them, sells the models and the rules work fine with 7th edition should should be fine for 8th. It boggles the mind why someone would refuse to play dogs of war. Its a fun army and not remotely over-powered. Its based around ranked infantry which is want most people like playing against so where is the problem? I'd much rather play against a dogs of war army then a tzeentch flying circus or a dark elf dragon two hydra list. Just because something is old doesn't mean it should be abandoned.

Jericho
25-05-2010, 17:58
I have been playing Dogs of War for ages and they are still one of my favorites from any game system. Great models, rules, fluff, you name it.

If the rumors to fighting in multiple ranks change the way they are proposed to change, then yeah pikes could get a huge boost in the number of attacks that they get. That could really go a long way towards making them more cost-efficient. 11 pts per model with WS3 and heavy armor is currently a really tough pill to swallow, but an extra 10-12 attacks would go a long way to forcing a few extra armor saves.

Honestly I think there's a couple of minor changes to the army list that would have made them competitive in 7th (clarifying the ASF rules on pikes, giving them heavy armor standard and plate armor to Ricco's unit, dropping a few unit prices slightly, etc.), and we shall see how 8th changes things. A boost to the standard magic lores from the main rulebook could help even things out a bit. And making the game less hero-centric will take some of the sting out of not having any magic items/banners to throw around.

Overall I really don't understand why someone wouldn't want them to appear in a tournament. I've used them in maybe a half dozen tournaments over the last year or two, and I think 3-2 and 3-3 were the best results I got with them. Granted my luck has been atrocious in most games, but still they aren't that far below the middle of the pack and it's extremely difficult to make them grossly unfair on any opponents. I simply can't see what the problem is.

selone
25-05-2010, 22:18
I don't like pikemen. Under 7th I'd go with dwarfs, beorn and his 'bears' and Ogres plus one other. I'm a sucker for paymasters bodyguard I have to say :(

lord opium
25-05-2010, 22:34
I reckon that in 8th cannons will be staying, maybe a hot pot or 2.

DoW heroes are relatively cheap so the 25% cap won't be an issue and new rulebook items could be nice.

And fighting in 2 ranks will make norsemen with flails/greatweapons/additional hand weapons much better.

DoW will also benefit from firing in 2 ranks as well eg. crossbowmen and halflings.

Bloodknight
25-05-2010, 22:48
I think the hotpot will get some kind of renaissance if there are no partials and all other stone throwers get downgraded to S6/3. It might even become the best stone thrower for its points.

Halflings will become very good, too. Together with the added 4" range for pistols I think that DoW can strengthen their point of basically being a shooty army.

someone2040
26-05-2010, 05:39
Why the negatives on pikemen? I have succesfully used a unit of Leopolds Leopards Company to tackle a unit of Dark Elf Black Ark Corsairs.. broke them and they ran..
14 pikes asf + 5 attacks from the hero killed 10+ on the first melee, so i think they did fine for what they are worth.

Also, the hero in such units of renown they dont cost any space in regular hero slots, but on the other hand, they are basicly equipped and cant leave their units, but the unit did fine, and i think in my case the Ricco's Republican guard would have done better with ws+1 higher and heavy armor instead of light...
I am not sure what good a basic unit of pikemen would do in comparison to the reg. or renown ones though...
It essentially comes down to this.
Pikemen cost too much. One can also argue, Pike rules aren't that great (Strength 4 isn't 'that' helpful against 1+ save cavalry).
But any unit they actually beat in combat, is likely to cost about half as much as your Pike unit.
Take your Leopard Company for instance, they gost 270 points in total (And you rolled extremely well/hyperbole to kill 10. 20 pikes on average does 10 hits, 5 wounds before armour saves). I'm sure those Corsairs (Who are a pretty optimal opponent with toughness 3 and low armour) don't cost anywhere near that much.

Pikes are just an unfortunate unit that has not faired very well throughout all the new army books and the change of edition.

8th edition as I mentioned, I think makes Pikemen even worse. As you now take return casualties regardless of how many you kill.

Lord Dan
26-05-2010, 05:48
A single corsair costs the same number of points as a single stock pikeman. At most they need to be dropped to 8 points, or maybe have them come standard issue with heavy armor for 9 points. I think that would be a realistic number that would make DoW players happy without making DoW opponents feel like they're too cheap.

pkain762
26-05-2010, 06:43
i agree that DoW are dying, and they need to be put down. I started a dow army only to convert to the empire. If you want a race of men, go to the empire or bretonnia.

Heck i'd rather have someone play a kislev list before dow

kain

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-05-2010, 06:50
Hey, if you don't like Dogs of War, that's fine. But go away from this thread, because it's about using them in 8th edition. It doesn't matter how loudly you shout it, people will continue to use them because they are characterful, customizable, and a unique army that is a challenge to use and to play against.

lord opium
26-05-2010, 08:31
Hey, if you don't like Dogs of War, that's fine. But go away from this thread, because it's about using them in 8th edition. It doesn't matter how loudly you shout it, people will continue to use them because they are characterful, customizable, and a unique army that is a challenge to use and to play against.

I second this

Bloodknight
26-05-2010, 08:34
If you want a race of men, go to the empire or bretonnia.

You missed the point. We don't necessarily want a race of men. We want a race of men with Ogres to beat stuff up, Dark Elves scouts, Hobgoblin fast cav, Dwarven blockers and Halfling archers, something varied...from a gaming point of view most of the humans are actually pretty useless unless they can shoot.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-05-2010, 09:47
- Games Workshop has abandoned support to it.

:confused: so what?


couldnt DoW spam alot of fairly cheap heros and lords?

lord opium
26-05-2010, 10:21
Yes they could, a captain with full plate, an enchanted shield, a lance, riding a pegasus is only 120pts.

Their wizards are also cheap.

Commissar Vaughn
26-05-2010, 12:33
I second this

And I third it!

Lord Dan
26-05-2010, 14:57
i agree that DoW are dying, and they need to be put down.
That's pretty harsh, especially considering a lot of people on these forums (and in this thread especially) play the army you're so quick to demand be "put down". What if GW were to come out and say: "Hey, your army is no longer valid. We know you've spent lots of money and time buying models and painting them, but you can just play another human army instead."

I demand and apology not to me, but to the DoW as an army.

lord opium
27-05-2010, 10:43
I demand and apology not to me, but to the DoW as an army.

I don't think that is necessary, whilst you may be annoyed at what has been said it is not that big a deal.

If anyone wants to comment on whether DoW should be continued or not they can so that in the warhammer general discusion.

I set this thread up to discuss Dow tactics in 8th ed and would like it to remain that way.

Back on topic;

What do people think about the roles DoW heroes should take in 8th? I've heared that characters will be needed in units to add that little extra punch to units as combat will be all about attrition now.

Lord Dan
27-05-2010, 11:40
I don't think that is necessary, whilst you may be annoyed at what has been said it is not that big a deal.

Siiiiiigh...

selone
27-05-2010, 22:15
What do people think about the roles DoW heroes should take in 8th? I've heared that characters will be needed in units to add that little extra punch to units as combat will be all about attrition now.

Well I'm not that convinced by sticking DoW heros in units to give them extra oomph, maybe one in a unit of dwarfs say but not lots of heros in units.

I do like taking a couple of pegasus riding heros
2 x Hero, pegasus, h.armour, shield, lances 110 points x 2= 220
and a war machine defender might work?
Hero, h.armour, shield, pistol 63

It definitely is worth waiting with your plans for adding bite to your units until we see the common items which hopefully add a few choices.

LordoftheBrassThrone
28-05-2010, 10:12
I've got a conversion of a grizzled old paymaster with a crossbow and massive mace, resting his foot on a big chest of gold(from the empire cannon frame). But he seems to be useless there. Any way to make him good at holding a line without making him too expensive(ive got a wizard and a war machine hunting captain, about 1500 points? dont really play much higher.

lord opium
28-05-2010, 11:17
You could (keeping him cheap) give him heavy armour, enchanted shield; 69pts for a 2+ save in combat.

ghostline
28-05-2010, 12:08
Actually a good tactic i've seen is to run the paymaster forward to die so that your whole army get's hatred...Unit of 40 pikemen with hatred....

CaptainFaramir
28-05-2010, 13:04
Just because something is old doesn't mean it should be abandoned.

My Grandmother keeps saying this.


I agree that [Oaps] are dying, and they need to be put down.

Our reponse is this.

Bloodknight
28-05-2010, 13:40
Stop trolling. Seriously...it's getting old.

It's like saying GW should drop the Skaven because the concept of radioactive ratmen is stupid. Or Bretonnia. Knights in a world full of guns...:rolleyes:

someone2040
31-05-2010, 02:55
Actually a good tactic i've seen is to run the paymaster forward to die so that your whole army get's hatred...Unit of 40 pikemen with hatred....
The only problem with this is... what happens if instead, half your army decides "Well crap, there goes my pay. Time to find a new army" and buggers off.
So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a 'good' tactic to throw away one of your heroe's.
Also of note, they only hate the unit that captured the Paymasters key. So it's not hatred against the whole enemy, just one unit. Hardly a good trade off.

Guys. Just ignore the trolls.

duffybear1988
31-05-2010, 07:57
I think halflings become great... im even considering adding 10 with bows and a hotpot to my Empire army for a measly 110 pts.

Anyone know if that is still legal?

Slayerthane
31-05-2010, 15:49
If the rumors for 8th are true, there will be a huge list of common magic items which DOW can also use. I think this has been the biggest limiting factor affecting the competitiveness of DOW as an army. I have the 5th ed. army book, where it refers to something similar in there. I didn't start playing WHFB until 6th so I don't know how DOW worked in 5th or before.

As for the naysayers, my club still allows me to play DOW and all the RTTs in my area allow me to as well. Alot of people think DOW should go the way of the dinosaurs, that's fine....that's your opinion.

As it stands this armylist is the only way I can put together a Kislev themed list that doesn't feel like a cheap knock of an empire army. My only concern is whether a Kislev allied contingent will still be allowed for DOW in 8th.