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unheilig
23-05-2010, 18:16
So with the known changes, which of the empire's state troops will be the top choice?

Will the mass ranks of spear win out, or does ws4 i4 still keep swordsmen on top?

Crovax20
23-05-2010, 18:22
I4 doesn't mean much since they won't kill enough to take advantage of it. WS4 is nice though since it will prevent some casualties. I am still not sure on how shields work in 8th, either your armor save will always be 6+ at the least or you get a seperate parry save at 6+. Either way its a small nerf to handweapon+shield.

Walls
23-05-2010, 18:27
If this parry thing is indeed a 6+ ward, then HW/Shield actually got boosted. You will always get a save, even against GW wielding Ogres and what not.

I think a mix is gonna be the way to go. I am gonna be running a unit of each of spearmen, swordsmen and halberds. I am more curious how detachments are going to work now. Charging is random, so are their counter and support charges are well?

Handgunners as a detachment got a huge nerf. No more stand and shoot with guns from what I understand (or I read it wrong, who knows!)

unheilig
23-05-2010, 18:38
I think you did... stand and shoot only works with thrown weapons within the charger's basic movement... whereas nothing did before.

Crovax20
23-05-2010, 18:38
I didn't see no stand and shoot with guns anywhere. All I saw was that you can't stand and shoot if your opponent is within base movement value of you.

unheilig
23-05-2010, 18:44
Swordmen 5 wide 6 deep... spearmen 10 wide 5 deep? That's a lot of attacks...

RanaldLoec
23-05-2010, 19:10
And that's a lot of points personally it will be both swordsmen and spearmen.

Note on parry rumour is that the ward isn't against any monstrous creatures or attacks like orges trolls etc.

Again though I will wait until I have the new rules in black and white an a bit of colour on July 10th before making any changes


Swordmen 5 wide 6 deep... spearmen 10 wide 5 deep? That's a lot of attacks...

Crovax20
23-05-2010, 19:12
Note on parry rumour is that the ward isn't against any monstrous creatures or attacks like orges trolls etc.

Again though I will wait until I have the new rules in black and white an a bit of colour on July 10th before making any changes

That would make it pretty much pointless. Oh I got hand weapon and shield bonus 6++ invulnerable armor save baby! And then come to realize that 90% of the str 6 and higher attacks are from monstrous creatures.

Cambion Daystar
23-05-2010, 19:14
The ward only doesn't work against the special crush them and destroy then attacks according to the rumor roundup

Walls
23-05-2010, 21:21
Then BOrc Warboss with GW :) Still will come in handier then it did in 7th.

Ramius4
23-05-2010, 21:29
If this parry thing is indeed a 6+ ward, then HW/Shield actually got boosted. You will always get a save, even against GW wielding Ogres and what not.

As has been proven in other threads by actual math, whether or not it is a boost or a nerf depends on what hits you.

For lower strengths, you actually have a lower probability of making your saving throw. For higher strengths hitting you, you have a higher probability of making the save.

Especially true of course when being hit with a high enough Strength that you would normally not have a saving throw. Now you'll have a 16% chance.

Firmlog
23-05-2010, 21:32
hmmm. theres enough changes with the new edition of rules, I'm surprised they aren't releasing a greybook codex with the ruleset, I would imagine a lot of things will need the points adjusted. Then again maybe not.

It will be interesting to see at least.

GodlessM
23-05-2010, 22:44
I see big blocks of Spearmen with Swordsmen detachments becoming common.

Ramius4
23-05-2010, 22:48
I see big blocks of Spearmen with Swordsmen detachments becoming common.

As do I. You'll want the Spearmen to do the bulk of the fighting. You just need to Swordsmen to survive long enough to deny ranks.

Halberdiers should be a good choice against armies like Orcs as well. Even Initiative 3 will beat an Orc;) And you'll benefit from the Strength for once, even if they tear you a new one.

Walls
23-05-2010, 22:51
Actually, I see Halberds becoming great detachments. No parry bonus on flanks so their extra strength can often take away armor altogether.

Ramius4
23-05-2010, 23:01
Actually, I see Halberds becoming great detachments. No parry bonus on flanks so their extra strength can often take away armor altogether.

It's really all situational and should be tailored to the army you're fighting.

The extra Strength on the flank may be nice, but lack of your own armor may be a detriment if the enemy has higher Initiative with enough attacks to reduce your rank bonus.

You really could go through 10 different opposing army books and get 10 different answers on this one, and even come to several different conclusions within the same book depending on the opposing troop type.

Ozorik
23-05-2010, 23:12
I wonder if halberds finally get something more than +1S, they have certainly needed it for years.

Depending on exactly when ranks are determined for flanking units detachments may have just become obsolete (although I suppose they will counteract the +1 charging CR bonus). I cant see any difficulties in actually counter charging given the short distances involved, their basic move can often manage it.

I always use archer detachments and I'm not sure if the new skirmish rules really suit them in this role.

Tarliyn
23-05-2010, 23:40
Swordsmen will still be taken due to increased survivability. They are not any better at killing things then they were before. Yeah they get more attacks but so does everything else so there will be no change to them. Empire infantry will remain some of the worst in the game.

Edit: Also with all the new attacks flying around and the rumoured loss of outnumbering bonus, cr has been weakened. Which is something else that hurts our infantry a lot.

Arkh
23-05-2010, 23:45
I see 30-40 packs of Halberds becoming common. 10x3 or 10x4

That's a lot of S4 attacks for an inexpensive unit.

Cognitave
24-05-2010, 07:08
That extra point of initiative that Swordsmen have is going to be even more important than ever now. Even still, WS4 and a 4+ save, you can't go wrong with swordsmen.

Also, the rumor has it that you need 2 ranks to negate your enemy's rank bonus, so be prepared to beef up your detachments in the coming months. And Tarlyin, I don't think Empire Infantry are the worst at all. You get what you pay for. 15 points for a killy chaos dude versus 6 points for a weedy Empire militia, seems fair to me. :D

ChaosVC
24-05-2010, 07:20
I think halberd and spearman would be almost equally useful. While spearman may provide more return attacks, halberd return attacks will be more painful. Chances are they are both viable for blocks formation. But Halberd are still better off as detachment.