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Mage
24-05-2010, 01:27
I think ship to ship fighting would be a good expansion to 40K. It would encourage people to take infantry primarily, but ship to ship boarding actions and fighting would be very cool IMHO.

It happens quite a bit in the novels, one of my favourite being Fulgrim and the EP attacking a ship of humans and aleisn in the HH novel Fulgrim.

It also happens in the Fire Warrior Computer game, I think you have to defend a tau ship from a bunch of boarding imperial storm troopers. Good fun.

But how would such games work?

And obviously you would need a specialised terrain board.

ehlijen
24-05-2010, 01:29
For starters, you could just use the space hulk terrain with a square = 1" to see how it goes, right?

Thylacine
24-05-2010, 02:59
You could start with terrain like this.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/384218/3d-terrain-for-space-hulk-facts-to-consider-befor

http://spacehulk.beckerf.de/html/3d-spacehulk.html

MOMUS
24-05-2010, 08:47
I was thinking ages ago of making a game board that was the hangar bay off a ship, which the attackers would invade off the board edge.(as if they had already landed)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244001

Using the planetstrike rules with a bit of modification would be an easy way around game mechanics.

Logarithm Udgaur
24-05-2010, 09:19
Possible scenario;
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-18459.html
Awesome scratch build of the Anphelion Base, but would also work for making ship interiors.
http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progress/index.php?showtopic=16497

Reflex
24-05-2010, 12:06
i remember reading a fluff piece about the black templars doing a boarding action on an ork space hulk. they smashed the ships defensive shields then went underneath it and launched drop pods into the ork's ships belly. was a cool story full of black templar terminators smashing orks.

Bunnahabhain
24-05-2010, 13:03
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258023

Might have some useful ideas.

Cpt. Castus
24-05-2010, 13:31
Our gaming group has had several apocalypse style games that involved boarding style type fights.

Unfortunately while it sounds like a good idea you run into a pretty severe problem in practice, mostly due to the six turn limit and the way CC works in 40k.

The biggest problem is that it is all too easy to stall someone in a corridor fight. Give me a few squads of Guardsmen and I can easily stop your tooled up CC squad from reaching its objective. I wont kill you but good luck forcing your way past me.

Also, certain armies are at a horrible disadvantage. IG for example can't attack nearly as well as they defend while assault armies have a field day.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258023

Might have some useful ideas.
This GW Link (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=6900023a&_requestid=516284&_reques tid=606483) mentioned that other thread I find particularly interesting. It solves most of the problems that I've runs into and creates some interesting new choices.

Havock
24-05-2010, 13:40
Narrow corridors leading to bigger areas. Which could be anything.

Anyone remember those old 'inside missions' in the first C&C Red alert? You walk around a bit, kill some dudes when you suddenly find yourself in a vehicle hangar.
Cue running away.

Mage
24-05-2010, 14:30
Wow. Wasn't expecting much input at all. I just recovered from a working a night shift, but I am going to go through all the links and try to put together my own little file on how such bording actions are.

Can anyone state from experience more problems that arise during such games?

Could always make it infantry only, modified lists, new weapons, stratagems, and use old cityfight cc rules (once one model from a unit is in CC with an enemy all models on either side are engaged).

Erwos
24-05-2010, 15:03
Narrow corridors leading to bigger areas. Which could be anything.
This would make for an interesting board design in general - doesn't even need to be indoors, as you've noted.

Tastyfish
24-05-2010, 18:31
I'd either look at the IA:4 rules from forgeworld that were used for the Anphelion base missions (slight changes to shooting, when charged the defender got a round of shooting in if they liked rather than fighting in close combat - also think the 'to hit' rolls depended on what sort of room the target was in rather than BS) or the new battle mission on the website that mixed up the turns (so you shoot after you opponents move phase and he does likewise).

Warlord Nazgred
24-05-2010, 20:19
or the new battle mission on the website that mixed up the turns (so you shoot after you opponents move phase and he does likewise).

I don't think I've read that, can I have a link please.

Back on topic, personally I think ship to ship boarding would have made a much better expantion rather then the unlikely event of a huge tank vs tank battle (fun to play mabye, not that I have played spearhead yet.) I suppose it's just GW's atempt to get everyone to buy the expensive tank kits on which they probably make alot of profit, well atleast more so then on encouraging people to buy a boarding party of about ten or twenty models.

Logarithm Udgaur
24-05-2010, 21:18
From the tread linked earlier.

Bob Plisskin;4647019']wasnt one of the missions on the GW website pretty much this?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=6900023a&_requestid=516284

MrBo114
24-05-2010, 21:40
ok heres my idea i havent seen it yet.

_____________ V_______________ entrance
H H
H H ladders
---------------H------------------
H
H ladders
______________________________
H H ladders
H H
____________________________(safe room here)

first off the ladders should be at both ends but i couldnt get it right.

Basically its just like donkey kong except u move down instead of up. Kill teams rules (everyman for himself) and low points (200 - 500), the safe room is the objective. (capture for attacker,defend for 3-5 turns for the defender.)
I was also thinkin throw in some unmanned sentry guns for the defender. hows that sound?

MasterDecoy
25-05-2010, 00:56
ok heres my idea i havent seen it yet.


_____________ V_______________ entrance
H H
H H ladders
---------------H---------------
H
H ladders
______________________________
H H ladders
H H
____________________________(safe room here)

first off the ladders should be at both ends but i couldnt get it right.

Basically its just like donkey kong except u move down instead of up. Kill teams rules (everyman for himself) and low points (200 - 500), the safe room is the objective. (capture for attacker,defend for 3-5 turns for the defender.)
I was also thinkin throw in some unmanned sentry guns for the defender. hows that sound?

fixed that for you.

Also, sounds simmilar to that necromunder mission where you where on a tower and the water kept rising.

chaos0xomega
25-05-2010, 01:12
I believe there was a Battlefleet Gothic mini-expansion (in the specialist magazine or whatever) called "invasion" that dealt specifically with this subject. Dig it up and see what you find.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-05-2010, 06:00
Back on topic, personally I think ship to ship boarding would have made a much better expantion rather then the unlikely event of a huge tank vs tank battle (fun to play mabye, not that I have played spearhead yet.) I suppose it's just GW's atempt to get everyone to buy the expensive tank kits on which they probably make alot of profit, well atleast more so then on encouraging people to buy a boarding party of about ten or twenty models.

Boarding actions might be more different Spearhead (but then again, might not be) but I think the crucial difference would be that even if Spearhead is all about tanks I could probably play a game of it. We can set up a table, put some tanks on it and play. It will be using most of the same things as what we already have for 40k.

Give me an expansion about boarding actions and I'll look at it and go neat, but if I need to build all new terrain and tables and stuff I won't bother. It's too much prep work to get to a stage where I can actually play it. It's not buying the dozen or so models for a boarding party, it's having something for them to board.

And honestly, if we are looking at a skirmish scale game I'd pick a different system than 40k to do it with. It's not what 40k does/does well, and it's not really how it's designed to work and so while boarding actions could be cool if that's the scale you want it at I think you would be better of with many of the skirmish games out there and then adapt them instead of adapting 40k.

Logarithm Udgaur
25-05-2010, 07:42
Also, sounds simmilar to that necromunder mission where you where on a tower and the water kept rising.
I wonder if this (http://www.mtv.com/videos/aeon-flux-short-6-tide/1565587/playlist.jhtml) was the inspiration? Or perhaps vice versa?

Pushkin
25-05-2010, 10:53
Yeah i think it would be a cool expansion and would work really well as part of a campaign.

Specifically i think it would work well as part of a kill team supplement. You could have basic rules on army selection (no tanks/dread/jump infantry obviously) and a couple of rules for stratagem/defences.

i understand the problem with regards to terrain. But then if you're playing reduced size say roughly 500 points of infantry? you could do it with the space hulk style terrain. They could do an entire terrain range in just a couple of box sets. All you would need is plastic/cardboard floor strips

The release could be as followed:

Expansion book = 15
Core terrain kit (8xcorridoors, 2 small rooms, 1 big room) = 30
Hanger = 1 very large room with extra modular bits = 20
Random other room (power core?) = 20

Then splash release of "spec ops", plastic storm troopers anyone?

I know this sounds quite expenisve but its the cost that GW would probably charge but it would mean you could put together a half decent board for around 50 (bearing in mind the reduced point size and only infantry)

I think its doable as a commercial release anyway.

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-05-2010, 06:52
i understand the problem with regards to terrain. But then if you're playing reduced size say roughly 500 points of infantry? you could do it with the space hulk style terrain. They could do an entire terrain range in just a couple of box sets. All you would need is plastic/cardboard floor strips


Oh certainly, Space Hulk is probably the best place to start. But I think you would be better off making it a Space Hulk supplement than a 40k supplement. You are going to need to make a whole ton of changes to how 40k normally run to make it really work on anything like a Space Hulk board. Where as Space Hulk would only really need statlines for more troops.

Sai-Lauren
26-05-2010, 12:17
The biggest problem is that it is all too easy to stall someone in a corridor fight. Give me a few squads of Guardsmen and I can easily stop your tooled up CC squad from reaching its objective. I wont kill you but good luck forcing your way past me.

Probably need to introduce things like Las cutters, Phase field Generators, or demo charge tunnelling - basically, as an attacker, you cut your way through the walls and either bypass or attack a defensive strong point from behind.

Maybe have rerolls to wound for template weapons (representing the walls and ceiling containing the detonation or flamer fire and rebounding it back at the unit).

Tyrannids might be able to have an option to say they can have a couple of units that don't get placed to start with, but can come in from reserve at a selected point (having crawled through the air ducts).

And Eldar Warp Spiders suddenly become a troop type of choice (jump past a unit, shoot at them, then watch as one of the assault aspects carves up what's left). :)



Also, certain armies are at a horrible disadvantage. IG for example can't attack nearly as well as they defend while assault armies have a field day.

Which is probably how is should be. ;)

Turn issues? Go for smaller battles (say 1,000 points), have a more limited set of objectives (take a certain room or destroy a specific piece of terrain) to represent that they're part of a larger boarding action, and play for 10 turns instead of 6.

Charistoph
26-05-2010, 16:53
Space Hulk/ Kill Team combo would probably work. Space Hulk really isn't designed for non-Terminator work.

Limit vehicles to Walkers, and the Walkers can only use large hallways and rooms.

Jump Infantry are allowed, but count hallways as Dangerous Terrain if they jump, Jet Packs would do the same if they choose to perform a non-assault move in the Assault phase.

Bikes would be limited like Walkers.

Bunnahabhain
26-05-2010, 17:46
Space Hulk/ Kill Team combo would probably work. Space Hulk really isn't designed for non-Terminator work.



Backgroundwise, that's really not true.

There simply are not enough terminators to tackle every space hulk. Lots of them are tackled by normal marines, and a fair number are taken on by Stormtroopers. The best equipped and trained Imperial troops that most of the galaxy will ever see. Marines should be incredibly rare.

isaac
26-05-2010, 17:59
You can always just take the DH route and throw some acolytes in with 1000 thrones of gear and see what happens.

Wintertooth
26-05-2010, 18:27
The battle report in Apocalypse Reload features an Ultramarine boarding action against an Ork "Bommbeast-class" vessel.

The scale of 40k spaceships being as vast as it is, I'd probably be more inclined to approach it like a Cityfight than a Space Hulk game. The targets in a boarding action aren't really the same as the inch-by-inch sweep of Space Hulk: in the Black Library novels, weapons bays, hangars, engine rooms and the bridge are usually described as big, open areas.

I don't think trying to cram an entire 40k army down a network of corridors would be very practical. Stick to a mostly open table representing part of the ship, maybe divided up into sections by bulkheads and things, with clear objectives. Keep it focused - a battle might revolve around a force getting from a breach point to a reactor and destroying it, a second battle might simulate their attempted withdrawal after a successful attack.

Angelwing
27-05-2010, 01:05
Options include:
space hulk room terrain.
Imperial armour 4 rules for fighting inside the base.
Kill team rules from 4th ed.
The space hulk mission from the chapter approved book.
Using the low gravity and vacuum rules from the evacuation mission 5th ed rulebook p270.

Charistoph
27-05-2010, 04:53
Backgroundwise, that's really not true.

There simply are not enough terminators to tackle every space hulk. Lots of them are tackled by normal marines, and a fair number are taken on by Stormtroopers. The best equipped and trained Imperial troops that most of the galaxy will ever see. Marines should be incredibly rare.

My comment had nothing to do with the operations they represent, just the rules-platform that they are based on. The rules themselves would not friendly to non-Terminators.

radical ed
27-05-2010, 12:10
The battle report in Apocalypse Reload features an Ultramarine boarding action against an Ork "Bommbeast-class" vessel.

The scale of 40k spaceships being as vast as it is, I'd probably be more inclined to approach it like a Cityfight than a Space Hulk game. The targets in a boarding action aren't really the same as the inch-by-inch sweep of Space Hulk: in the Black Library novels, weapons bays, hangars, engine rooms and the bridge are usually described as big, open areas.

I don't think trying to cram an entire 40k army down a network of corridors would be very practical. Stick to a mostly open table representing part of the ship, maybe divided up into sections by bulkheads and things, with clear objectives. Keep it focused - a battle might revolve around a force getting from a breach point to a reactor and destroying it, a second battle might simulate their attempted withdrawal after a successful attack.

city fight is the answer. think of the scale of the 40k space craft. there wont be many little tunnels and corridors, the main areas will be vast cathedral like areas. much more like a city.

Thanatos_elNyx
27-05-2010, 12:49
C'tan and Wraiths would be awesome on such a board.

I once played something similar where it was a normal battlefield with a space hulk board in teh middle. We had to go into the buildings looking for an objective.
I was annoying when the objective was in teh first room that my opponent entered and it took me forever to footslog my way over to his side.

Sai-Lauren
27-05-2010, 13:28
city fight is the answer. think of the scale of the 40k space craft. there wont be many little tunnels and corridors, the main areas will be vast cathedral like areas. much more like a city.

Aside from Craftworlds, I can't really see there being too many wide open areas on board a starship - even a hanger bay would be cramped, and filled with craft, support frames, tools, refuelling rigs and bowsers and so on. It most, there'd probably be enough room for a full guard platoon equivalent on either side to fight sensibly in it (and at least one squad would be firing from the doorways into the hanger).

Any significant space would be taken up with more armour, ammunition, fuel or stores.

Even the bridge of a Battleship might only be the size and shape of a small parish church, but it would feel cavernous in comparison to the rest of the ship.

solkan
27-05-2010, 21:05
Oddly enough, I think the problem with ship boarding actions is that either huge wide open City Fight style encounters, and the closed in, narrow corridor approach of Space Hulk are both valid according to the background.

After all, if a Titan legion gets transported to a planet, it stands to reason that there was a chamber somewhere on the ship big enough to hold them in. And I can swear that I've seen artwork purporting to be the interior of huge garden domes for 40k ships.

Sai-Lauren
28-05-2010, 08:59
After all, if a Titan legion gets transported to a planet, it stands to reason that there was a chamber somewhere on the ship big enough to hold them in. And I can swear that I've seen artwork purporting to be the interior of huge garden domes for 40k ships.

Craftworlds have the huge open gardens.

And a titan bay would just be rather a large hold (despite how the AM would describe them) - besides which, there's one pictured in one of the Titan stories (where they're in transit to another world, and an accident causes another warlord to go berserk) - it's basically more like a foundry with titan support cradles, towers, cranes, catwalks and bridges and so on everywhere, no wide open spaces.

Plus, such areas wouldn't be the primary targets - which would be the bridge, main engineering, life support, the magazines, gun decks and shield generators, which the vessel designer would have tried to limit approaches towards in case of boarding action or mutiny.

You'd be fighting down narrow corridors, past security checkpoints, to an area with a single entrance point, and probably screened with teleport jammers and the equivalent of a psychic hood.

Bork
28-05-2010, 10:53
I've been wanting to build 'indoor' terrain for 40k for a long time. Considering the scale of 40k it seems reasonable that there should be buildings at least the size of a game table.
Factories, hangars, fortresses, churches or even large administratum buildings (imagine fighting over a huge gothic cube farm :)). Considering the size of ships in the 40k universe, they could well contain most if not all of the above. They could even contain 'regular' battlefield in them selves, for training and drilling of guardsmen en route to a battle zone.



And a titan bay would just be rather a large hold (despite how the AM would describe them) - besides which, there's one pictured in one of the Titan stories (where they're in transit to another world, and an accident causes another warlord to go berserk) - it's basically more like a foundry with titan support cradles, towers, cranes, catwalks and bridges and so on everywhere, no wide open spaces.

While I do think that a titan bay would indeed be full of a titan and hence quite cramped and possibly not a main objective for boarders it could very well serve as a beach head for them. If the titans are deployed there will be a quite open space with plenty of room and cover to play such a scenario.