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incarna
24-05-2010, 20:41
I’m reading through the Warriors of Chaos Army Book. I’m also reading through the rumors on the 8th ed rulebook. I feel my 40k experience is helping me to understand things, but I have one important question:

Under Chaos Warhounds is says Warhounds units do not count toward the minimum core choices of the army.

Does this mean that in a 2250 point game, Chaos Warhounds count for NEITHER the 3+ minimum core choices NOR the 25% minimum core point requirement? – thus requiring me to fill out the 25% minimum requirement with Chaos Warriors, Chaos Marauders, or Marauder Horsemen.
OR
Does this mean that they ONLY do not count toward the 3+ minimum core choices but do contribute to the 25% minimum point allocation for core choices? – thus allowing me to take, for example, 3 units of chaos marauders costing 60 points each and 2 units of 32 chaos warhounds at 192 points each.
OR
Is this question unanswerable due to the 8th ed rulebook not being out yet?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
24-05-2010, 21:16
The third option, as far as I know nothing has been confirmed yet in this respect. But as slots are probably going, I'd reckon they won't count towards the 25% requirement as that would allow you to take all warhounds as core. Then again, we are talking about GW...

Nixon

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2010, 21:25
This is currently not known I'm afraid. I would like to know as well as WoC aren't the only army with 'empty' Core Choices, my Vampire Counts, Skaven and Lizardmen suffer from the same syndrome. ;)

incarna
24-05-2010, 21:29
Thansk guys - i was wondering if you could answer another quick question for me. What do champions do bseides get an additional attack? I thought I remember reading somwhere that they get to purchase some wargear but i can't seem to find that for the life of me.

xragg
24-05-2010, 21:44
Most champions have an extra attack. Some can get different gear or magic items, but these options are listed in the points section of the army books. Typically only the "elite" units have champions with extra options, like blackguard and cold one knights for dark elves.

Milgram
24-05-2010, 21:57
read the rulebook. there is no way around it and in there you will find all basic information for champions. and read your armybook. there you will find all other information about your army.

T10
24-05-2010, 22:05
Im reading through the Warriors of Chaos Army Book. Im also reading through the rumors on the 8th ed rulebook. I feel my 40k experience is helping me to understand things, but I have one important question:

Under Chaos Warhounds is says Warhounds units do not count toward the minimum core choices of the army.

Does this mean that in a 2250 point game, Chaos Warhounds count for NEITHER the 3+ minimum core choices NOR the 25% minimum core point requirement? thus requiring me to fill out the 25% minimum requirement with Chaos Warriors, Chaos Marauders, or Marauder Horsemen.
OR
Does this mean that they ONLY do not count toward the 3+ minimum core choices but do contribute to the 25% minimum point allocation for core choices? thus allowing me to take, for example, 3 units of chaos marauders costing 60 points each and 2 units of 32 chaos warhounds at 192 points each.
OR
Is this question unanswerable due to the 8th ed rulebook not being out yet?

The Chaos Army requires you to take a minimum of three core choices at 2000-3000 points, and the warhounds do not count towards these three units.

The 25% requirement is a bit premature at this point.

-T10

Jerrus
24-05-2010, 23:54
Champions can also issue/accept challenges.

vinush
25-05-2010, 05:45
Which will act as ablative armour for your poor squishy wizard if his big nasty character looks set to attack him.

Leth Shyish'phak
25-05-2010, 21:55
Until the Wizard is forced to accept the challenge, because the champion isn't. :shifty:

Such a stupid rule.

Eta
25-05-2010, 22:03
Until the Wizard is forced to accept the challenge, because the champion isn't. :shifty:

Such a stupid rule.

As long as the champion lives, the sorcerer is save. The FAQ has cleared up that all models that can issue/accept challenges must do so. But you as controlling player can choose who will do the job.

Greetings
Eta

Milgram
25-05-2010, 22:41
well, a character issuing a challenge against a wizard is plain stupid. the wizard player will almost always accept with the champion OR will decline the challenge (if the wizard is not in contact with the character)... but that is tactics and not rules.

Bac5665
25-05-2010, 23:43
Thats why you always want to challenge, so on turn two of the combat, you challenge again and the wizard is screwed.

Milgram
26-05-2010, 07:27
that is just plain wrong. if you issue a challenge against an unit that only contains a wizard, the wizard is actually saver than if you do not. your opponent will actually thank you for saving his wizard AND getting an additional trooper in to the fight. with absolutely no downside, unless the wizard had a higher ld.

Adran
26-05-2010, 10:23
that is just plain wrong. if you issue a challenge against an unit that only contains a wizard, the wizard is actually saver than if you do not. your opponent will actually thank you for saving his wizard AND getting an additional trooper in to the fight. with absolutely no downside, unless the wizard had a higher ld.

excpet when there is a special rule which says that the character can not refuse a challenge, so as long as there is a character in a position to accept a challenge, the chaos player can not refuse.
If there is only a champion, then the chaos player can refuse, and have the champion sent to the back.
Eye of the gods, don't ya just wish they had written it properly...

Milgram
26-05-2010, 10:44
yeah, special rules. like the bretonnian gauntlet or something else... sure, you can take into account things like these, but then you can't come up with universal statements.

Harwammer
26-05-2010, 10:45
Until the Wizard is forced to accept the challenge, because the champion isn't.

No, Chaos characters are not strictly forced to accept challenges, rather they are not allowed to refuse challenges.

'Refusing a challenge' is a specific rule mechanic in which no model accepts a challenge and the opponent gets to choose one model to send to a non-fighting position.

As such if the champion accepts the challenge the wizard isn't counted as having refused it.

Leth Shyish'phak
26-05-2010, 19:57
That doesn't sound right to me... It would let a Chaos character in a unit that had no champion simply ignore challenges declared by the enemy.

So my opponent declares a challenge, my character does not accept, according to you this does not count as refusing the challenge, my character can't refuse the challenge and so nothing happens. :wtf:


As long as the champion lives, the sorcerer is save. The FAQ has cleared up that all models that can issue/accept challenges must do so. But you as controlling player can choose who will do the job.

Greetings
Eta

All that the FAQ says is that champions must declare challenges but are able to refuse them.

Seeing as how characters can't refuse, I would think that forces them to accept (or to enter a state of strage challenge-limbo).

Laton
26-05-2010, 22:24
That doesn't sound right to me... It would let a Chaos character in a unit that had no champion simply ignore challenges declared by the enemy.

So my opponent declares a challenge, my character does not accept, according to you this does not count as refusing the challenge, my character can't refuse the challenge and so nothing happens. :wtf:

Eye of the Gods:
"Chaos models that may issue challenges must do so whenever they are able. Furthermore, such is their thirst for glory that Chaos characters may not refuse challenges..."

When your opponent declares a challenge you can send in the champion instead of the wizard, because champions may legally accept challenges. Sending another viable model into the challenge does not mean refusing the challenge with any other chaos characters in the unit (you don't place them at the back of the unit, either).

If you can't send in a replacement, a chaos character is forced to accept of course. If you don't want your wizard to declare a challenge you can make the unit champion preempt him, too.

That was always pretty clear to me : /

Milgram
27-05-2010, 07:58
and it was of course the intention. but the effect of the rule is another one. :) though leth has it wrong as well. cannot refuse means cannot be sent to the back. if no character/champion is able to be sent into a non fighting position, then he has to accept the challenge. so a chaos character has to accept as soon as there is no champion that can be moved.

Adran
27-05-2010, 10:02
Milgrim I think you've got this wrong.

empire vs chaos

Empire issues a challenge. Chaos has a unit champion and two characters who can accept the challenge. Because the Characters CAN NOT refuse the challenge, it must be accepted. The Chaos player can chose who accepts it.

If the Choas player had 2 unit champions and no characters in position to accept the challange then they can either accept it with one of the unit champions, or refuse the challenge. If they refuse, the empire player chooses which of the two unit champions would be sent to the back.
Of course if the empire player hadn't of issued a challenge, the Chaos player would have had to.

Refusing the challenge is something all the eligible characters/unit champions on one side (of the combat) must do together. If any one of them can't refuse, then you as a player must accept the challenge. Of course which one accepts it is up to you.

Phil

Milgram
27-05-2010, 10:57
characters do not refuse challenges. players do.

other situation:


GSS
GGCGSSG

S: Goblin hero on giant spider
G: Goblins
C: Champion

the o&g player may refuse the challenge. the champion will be moved to the back as the goblin hero cannot be moved into a non-fighting position.

xragg
27-05-2010, 16:22
characters do not refuse challenges. players do.

other situation:


GSS
GGCGSSG

S: Goblin hero on giant spider
G: Goblins
C: Champion

the o&g player may refuse the challenge. the champion will be moved to the back as the goblin hero cannot be moved into a non-fighting position.

Well, you really didnt line up an enemy.


GSS
GGCGSSG
RRR

If R is the enemy and one of them is able to issue a challenge, the O&G can refuse with R forcing either to a nonfighting position. To push the spider into a non-combat position:


GSS
GGCGGSS
RRR

Milgram
27-05-2010, 17:15
GSS
GGCGSSG
RRRRR

well, without a fully lined up opponent the example doesn't make too much sense...