PDA

View Full Version : Hatred and multi-round combat



nepenthe
25-05-2010, 06:17
OK, I was playing a game earlier today with my friend and ran into a rather unique multi-round combat. The question revolves around this situation:

A Temple Guard unit with Slann charges into a Black Guard unit and ends up with the BG losing combat but persisting with a successful stubborn ld roll. Now it's the DE player's turn and he flank charges the Temple guard unit with a Hydra.

Now moving to the subsequent combat, do the Hydra and handlers get their Hatred rolls as this is the first round of combat they are involved with the Temple Guard? Or is it treated as a continuing combat, and they lose their to-hit rerolls from Hatred because it is not technically the first round of the combat?

We resolved it, in an effort to keep play going, by opting for the standard 4+ but are wondering if anyone has found a ruling, FAQs, or text supporting either interpretation.

T10
25-05-2010, 06:27
It is the first round of combat for the Hydra and its handlers. Thus the re-roll to hit part of the Hatred rules apply.

-T10

SabaLoth
25-05-2010, 14:44
T10 is correct

nepenthe
26-05-2010, 05:25
OK, I personally agree with your consensus on the principle that it is the first round of combat for the Hydra with the Temple Guard and so the Hydra should receive its hatred rerolls.

However, I'm hesitant due to the text defining hatred (pg 53 BRB) "This bonus only applies to the first round of a combat." and cross referencing this with the text for close combat defining what a combat is: (pg 32 BRB) " ...So long as fighting units are interconnected, they are participating in the same combat." This seems to suggest that, yes this may be the first round for the Hydra, but since it is now interconnected with Black Guard and Temple Guard combat, which is now on its second combat round, and there for the Hydra loses its hatred rerolls.

Now I still feel that this interpretation is still rather gray, and to me it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game because it is taking away an ability of a unit who joined combat and in effect punishing a player for using the anvil/hammer strategy.

If someone can find some contradictory text or another interpretation, I'd greatly appreciate this. When playing DE, I feel that this will come up more than once and in this case determined the outcome of this crucial combat and in turn the game.

Lord Dan
26-05-2010, 06:17
Now I still feel that this interpretation is still rather gray, and to me it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game because it is taking away an ability of a unit who joined combat and in effect punishing a player for using the anvil/hammer strategy.

Here you've listed two reasons not to play it the way you've suggested. I think in the case of gray areas we need to choc one up to logic and some good ol' spirit of the game.

Tarliyn
27-05-2010, 04:44
so I was the one he was playing this game against and I would like to offer a disclaimer before I start. Normally I would have said no problem to the hydra getting hatred as I believe that is how it is supposed to be. But we were playing a game to help prepare for a tourny so we were trying to run the game as close to raw as possible.

So here is my take. I think according to raw they do not get the reroll. The hatred roll pretty specifically states that it only applies to the first round of combat and in the case where any unit charges into the side of a combat that has been going on since the previous turn is clearly not the first round. The RAI reading may be different but since it is impossible to know what the writers intended aside from asking them we can't get a clear ruling on that.

Now in friendlies I personally would allow the hatred reroll to go through since I personally believe that is the intent. But at a competitive tourny I probably wouldn't. That though is one reason I don't typically play at competitive tournys, due to silly issues like this.

So in short:
RAW= No hatred reroll
RAI= Who knows, we aren't the writer
Friendlys: Go ahead who does it hurt.
Competitive: Go by raw it causes the least arguments if it is written in the book without a faq fixing it.

Atrahasis
27-05-2010, 09:20
The rules taken as a whole indicate that models get rerolls in their first round of combat.

See the FAQ regarding revealed assassins, among others.

TheOniwaban
01-06-2010, 00:59
so I was the one he was playing this game against and I would like to offer a disclaimer before I start. Normally I would have said no problem to the hydra getting hatred as I believe that is how it is supposed to be. But we were playing a game to help prepare for a tourny so we were trying to run the game as close to raw as possible.

So here is my take. I think according to raw they do not get the reroll. The hatred roll pretty specifically states that it only applies to the first round of combat and in the case where any unit charges into the side of a combat that has been going on since the previous turn is clearly not the first round. The RAI reading may be different but since it is impossible to know what the writers intended aside from asking them we can't get a clear ruling on that.

Now in friendlies I personally would allow the hatred reroll to go through since I personally believe that is the intent. But at a competitive tourny I probably wouldn't. That though is one reason I don't typically play at competitive tournys, due to silly issues like this.

So in short:
RAW= No hatred reroll
RAI= Who knows, we aren't the writer
Friendlys: Go ahead who does it hurt.
Competitive: Go by raw it causes the least arguments if it is written in the book without a faq fixing it.

The guy below me is right, you are wrong. Notice the bolded word and the FAQ. Happy Gaming.


The rules taken as a whole indicate that models get rerolls in their first round of combat.

See the FAQ regarding revealed assassins, among others.

Tarliyn
02-06-2010, 15:19
The guy below me is right, you are wrong. Notice the bolded word and the FAQ. Happy Gaming.

The hostility in this reply was completely unnesscary. And just to play devils advocate a character that doesnt count as a character with loads of other specials rules doesn't really prove a lot.

As I said i would let it slide, infact at our last game this same sort of stituation happened twice and both times he got hatred without even a question.

No need for hostility

etancross
02-06-2010, 15:27
The hostility in this reply was completely unnesscary. And just to play devils advocate a character that doesnt count as a character with loads of other specials rules doesn't really prove a lot.

As I said i would let it slide, infact at our last game this same sort of stituation happened twice and both times he got hatred without even a question.

No need for hostility

Sorry i didn't notice a sniff of hostility in his post, the question has been answered for you but you want to keep trying to get a different answer and im sorry this is pretty clear… there is no grey area.

deggaroth
02-06-2010, 15:50
And just to play devils advocate a character that doesnt count as a character with loads of other specials rules doesn't really prove a lot.


IMO this argument is incorrect. The FAQ was specifically addressing the 'eternal hatred' rule for the assassin not his other special rules. If a rule works a certain way for a character logic states that it will work that way for everyone else. For example, my witch elves and my friend's khornate lord have frenzy. This does not mean that frenzy is different for the khorne lord just because he has a bunch of other special rules. The only time that a character will get a special rule that is slightly different from the rulebook special rule is if there is a clause specifically stating 'this is different from the rulebook', which is not the case with the assassin. Thus, I would say that RAW state that the Hydra gets rerolls in his first round of combat. I would also say that RAI states the same thing, since it is rather impossible for a Hydra to vicariously release his pent up energy through BG. ;)