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MarshallSam
26-05-2010, 19:19
Just drumming up some ideas and thought I'ld pitch them out there to get a general reaction. Things I'ld like to see in the next Codex: Chaos Space Marines:

Sorcery v. Psychic Powers - While mechanically they should stay the same (ie. Ld test to pass) there should be a greater risk/reward for such things. A piece of equipment should be a thrall for a sorcerer. By sacrificing a thrall the Ld test is passed without rolling. A sorcerer could purchase 1-3 of these. Could be some bonus to the power used (ie. additional strenght or distance or whatever), but if more than one is spent in anyone player turn roll a d6, on a 1 all thralls are removed and socerer suffers Perils of the Warp.

Extra Dimensional Transports - As an upgrade option for transport vehicles, using dark magic, the vehicle is inscribed with arcane runes which creates a small pocket dimension inside the transport. The inside of the transport is now larger than the outside, think Dr. Who. Rhinos and Land Raiders capacity is now 20.

Icons v. Marks - I like the option for fielding icons is certain units but this should be taken a step further. If I purchase an icon then I am able to purchase the appropriate cult upgrade. Ex. I purchase a MoK for my terminators, then I purchase the Cult upgrade and now my terminators are WS 5, Fearless, Furious Charge, +1A just like berzerkers. And drop the whole "squad forgets what god they worship when icon bearer is killed." This would also go to help allieviate the problem of making Legions on the field

Daemon Engines - More daemon engines in the Heavy and even Fast Attack slots.

Upgradeable Daemons - Give both greater and lesser Daemons the icon and cult treatment as above. Think of it this way, generic deamons - a small warp breach only a little of the daemons power can get through, icon deamons - a medium warp breach most of the daemons power can get through, cult daemons - large warp breach all of the daemons power can get through.

Less Random Possessed - Make it an upgrade that a Ld test allows you to select what power they have that turn. This way the Marines are ascerting their will over the daemon's.

More variety of daemon weapons - bring back things like the Kai Gun.

Lars Porsenna
26-05-2010, 19:25
The big thing I'd like to see is a return of marks. I completely agree that the loss of the icon shouldn't stop my World Eaters from being World Eaters. Keeping icons is fine; just change their effect somehow.

I'd also like to see a return of cultists, or allow "allies" with IG (fat chance).

Damon.

Erwos
26-05-2010, 19:30
I'd like my old Iron Warriors rules back, so I can field 9 Oblits, a Basilisk, and 3 Defilers.

I kid, I kid.

But, more seriously, I'd like to see cult armies with specific daemon choices come back. There's no reason Death Guard armies shouldn't take Plague Bearers. Call it one unit of specific daemons per appropriate cult squad, maybe.

Another thing that would be good in conjunction with the previous suggestion: more exploration of the relationship of the non-aligned Legions with minor Chaos gods and the upper crust of greater daemons. I think that generic lesser daemon packs and greater daemons are a good idea that could fit a lot more into the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, etc. with some more fluff. (As an aside, I saw someone demonstrate mixing a Necron box with a Bloodletter box, and it looked completely awesome for IW daemons.)

Chaos dreads need to lose the insanity rule, or at least make it a little more friendly to movement-oriented armies, even if it comes at a points increase.

And, finally, I'd like to see a fast attack vehicle choice of some sort. I'm not sure what it would be; definitely not a land speeder, but perhaps some sort of raiding/scout buggy. Maybe it could have scout, fast, and some kind of outflanking bonus? I'm thinking a heavy weapon plus twin-linked special weapon in terms of armament (eg, plasma cannon + TL-melta). Call it a pre-Heresy Razorback - no transport capacity, but much faster.

Kurgash
26-05-2010, 19:35
marks make them cults. icons for the summoning. generic demons but then you can buy marks to make them appropriate. different weapon/vehicle load outs, demon engines, transport to help with the CC nature of CSM armies. Benefits of taking the legion route, able to take special upgrades for characters.

Count de Monet
26-05-2010, 19:42
I like the idea of extra dimensional transports, but disembarking could be difficult.

StormWulfen
26-05-2010, 19:45
The chaos dread crazed rule should be changed back to how it was in the old book.

pringles978
26-05-2010, 19:50
i wish for gav thorpe to be chained up in a cell somewhere being beaten with sticks for as long as it takes for the new book to be written and published so he cant interfere.

and what kurgash said.

Corpse
26-05-2010, 20:19
Not readin' others because I have quick summarizations of what I want (back).

-True mark options that must be painted on the model and/or adhered.

-Legion specific special characters to fit in tune with characters like Vulkan and Logan Grimnar. (I know, might as well go with the new theme)

-Cult specialists (like zerks, sons, emp.childs, plagues) can only be troops if they're of the sacred number or multiples of it. Otherwise elites if not so.

-Defiler or some other vehicle gets an indirect fire option, obviously remove fleet if the defiler gets the option.

-Cult upgrades for vehicles who start with marked troops, but can only carry those said marked troops if they're transports.

-Cultists, options for additional daemon types even if they're not the main kind. Harpies, gibbering hordes that we always read about in the novels and zombies. (bring back LatD damn it!)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|I admit this is a stretch.|

clangedinn
26-05-2010, 21:03
I would like to see them get more in depth with the different chaos marine chapters blood angels, dark angels and all that have their own books give us a book for death company, world eaters, iron legion and so on

Damien 1427
26-05-2010, 21:17
I'd take the Defiler concept and run with it...


A Melee Defiler that sacrafices ranged ability for speed
A Ranged Defiler that sacrafices maunverability and combat ability for artillery
A "Land Raider" Defiler that has a transport capacity, maybe ten models, light arnaments (Heavy Bolters or Flamers, perhaps, along with melee capability) and improved armour
A lighter version of the Defiler for Fast Attack, reduced armour, improved speed and capable of mounting perhaps close combat weapons, or the kit a Havoc can carry


Other than that, I just want Lost and the Damned 2.0.

totgeboren
26-05-2010, 22:06
Bring back cultists, you know, that standard run-of-the-mill human heretic. I still use the rules from 3:ed, but it would be nice with an update.

Also, a beef I have is that since 3:ed, my army has been split in three! CSM, Daemons and normal humans. I made a LatD army, because that's what I want to play, and then GW splits the list in three. :(

Anyway, I also want proper marks, icons that are permanent, a dreadnought that you can use, possessed with some control over their ability, and ofc Chaos Spawns that is of some worth at least.

Units that you can't control are really sucky by default, and should be cheap, since the opponent can easily deal with them.

Sythica
26-05-2010, 22:10
I think CSM needs a complete thematic overhall. For example, look at the existing templates:

Space Marines: The baseline.
Space Wolves: Assault based with fur (and Long Fang Awesomeness)
Blood Angels: Air assault based with wings.
Grey Knights: Elite, teleport based.
Dark Angels: Crap. I mean, shooting based?

What are Chaos Marines? The same thing as the Baseline but with spikes?

I think GW should take a look at Dawn of War. Bring the cultists/traitor guard into the army. Possibly make the Chaos Space Marine codex a cultist/daemon horde(ish) army, with elite, 10,000 year old space marines as the center. Not as far as the Lost and the Damned, but something to move away from the baseline.

Do I actually think the above will happen? Not a chance. I'm really just expecting the chaos dreadnought rules to get worse (as per the poor tyranid lictor), and obliterators to lose half of their weapons and double in cost.

Dark Primus
26-05-2010, 22:27
The DAEMON PRINCE:

I want to see a deepening of the Daemon Prince. Each aligned to specifik gods should have total different stats and different Daemon weapons and huge load of upgrade options. And there should be potential 4 Daemon Prince special characters, one for each Chaos God.
You can have two DP as the HQ slots but you can not take two of the special characters DP.

Khorne aligned Prince should enhance all CSM that are close by in CC abilities.

Nurgle DP Nurgle's rot should be better with automatic wound on 4+ on all enemy models standing within 6". And with Daemon weapons that makes it wound on 2+ or each unsaved wound becomes 2.

Slaanesh DP Should be a rather good CC combatant not has a high WS as the Khorne version nor as strong but perhaps compensated with +2 extra attacks and with a +2 in initiative. Just like the Greater Daemon it comes with fleet as standard but should you put wings on it then fleet ability would be gone.

Tzeentch DP medium okey for CC and has decent number of attacks but can be upgraded with special skills that turns any enemy model in base contact into spawns on a roll of 6, maybe a thoughness test on each enemy model it is in CC with. But it can also muster a large variation of nasty psychic power that are not all just boring shooty weapons but that actually enhances and boost you own troops too, like you choose any friendly model or unit within line of sight and for one shooting phase they get BS 10.

It can give is itself som for of cloaking masking itself similar way as the Predator so you can only hit it in CC on 6's and all models that shoots at it gets their BS reduced to 1.
However should the DP fire a weapon while wearing the cloak the cloak will not protect the DP for that turn.

The last part is not really something I want but it is an Idea, I want GW to start expand their views when it comes to DP's and not just make them dumb and boring CC units but make them nasty and more interesting and give them more options to choose from.

I can imagine a naked Prince would probably cost anything between 150-200 pts but with potential upgrades they can very well end up costing 320 pts to make fair balanced in costs, and i want them to return to 2+ armor saves.

DeeKay
26-05-2010, 23:25
Re-introduce Daemonic Gifts for Aspiring Champions upwards. Allow characters to take a many Gifts as they have wounds and do not allow the same loadout of gifts in the army. This avoids an army made up of S5 Power weapon toting Aspiring Champions.

Re-introduce the Chaos Weapons suh as the Axe of Khorne, Plague Sword etc. With the advent of "rule of cool" dominating games design ATM, think these would go down a treat.

With regards to the Daemon Weapns. Scrap the God-specific ones and introduce a generic weapon. Make it a 2-handed power weapon that adds D3 to Str and D3 to A (very important that both are rolled seperately) For every 1 rolled to hit, the hit is allocated to the bearer. With this, you can potentially have a Lord with a Daemon Weapon insta-gibbing an enemy IC but also dying himself. The whole risk-reward thing comes into play.

Allow for units to gain a single USR instead of an Icon or Mark. That way, you can accurately play the unaligned Legions as well as the Big Four. Probably allow Chosen to take a single USR and an Icon or Mark. It might have to cost the earth but it would be a nice touch.

With regards,
Dan.

Mabd
26-05-2010, 23:36
The fluff for The Thousand Sons to go forward and FIX the bloody Rubric. Stupid thing. Maybe the Rubric Marines can be Dark Squat Robot Guard!! *curse, mutter*.

Yeah, I hate the rubric. heh.

Perhaps the Sons have wiped out a few squads of Blood Ravens and harvested their seedy goodness... time to create more Thousand Sons! The Twice Born! Elite, of course... :)

Dvnjhn
27-05-2010, 00:10
One major thing I would like is different abilities for Dreads. These abilities are dependent on their alligned chaos god. Undivided - Bog standard, Khorne - (bit like the Bloodangles dread with the blood claws), Nurgle - Roll two d6 and choose lowest on penetration table, Slaneesh - Sonic weapons, Tzeench - Librarian dread.

Drop pods are anouther thing I would love to see and possibly better characters, or ones who can match the new space marines.

Gutlord Grom
27-05-2010, 00:26
Mabd: The Rubric was around before this codex. It's been established for a long time, and it essentially makes the Thousand Sons immortal, if mindless.

Lord Asgul
27-05-2010, 00:36
I would like to see the return of the entire Chaos Armoury and Wargear section. I preferred 3.5 to 4th because my converted lords had their wargear and some of their gifts modelled onto them and when 4th hit...that effort seemed pointless.

Axeman1n
27-05-2010, 00:42
I want to see more chaos gods in-fighting.
I want to see a bonus with blessed numbers
Marks in all squads with weapon upgrades. Marked Havocs who can take sonic weapons. marked Termaintors who can take sonic weapons.
More access to daemons. Able to ally with Chaos Daemons.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
27-05-2010, 01:03
Roll Daemons and CSM back into one codex, and put in cultist units with dreadful leadership and dirt cheap costs.

If daemons are summoned via the cult unit, remove d6 cultists as casualties to represent them being sacrificed or something.

BobTheZombie
27-05-2010, 01:18
I would like more depth, essentially. More options for characters, more daemon engines and more of a cool factor (If I can get away with using the phrase "cool factor" without being ironic, anyway). I'd love more options for daemons and some Traitor Guard/ LatD element, as I feel that this would give a more unique feel to the codex. The current list, whilst functional (cult Legions notwithstanding), suffers from being very bland. It'll be interesting to see how GW will approach the next Codex:CSM. There's a lot of scope for improvement.

R Man
27-05-2010, 01:32
The big thing I'd like to see is a return of marks. I completely agree that the loss of the icon shouldn't stop my World Eaters from being World Eaters. Keeping icons is fine; just change their effect somehow.

So, despite 6000 years of history saying losing your standard is bad, the fact that disgracing the chaos gods is likely to get you lobotomized with a drill, you still think that a chaos marines reaction to losing a warp filled badge of honour and rage should be 'meh'. Not all chaos marines are devote fanatics for the same reason not all Christians are fundamentalist. Thus, loosing the symbol of your devotion is going to be worrying. If not just through fear of punishment.

That said, I do think that terminators and Dreadnaughts should be able to get marks and maybe chosen too. After all, It should be possible to worhship Khorne and still be able to speak coherently.

To be honest, the current codex is well crafted mostly. Its just a little bland. So expand the options. Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes should get more options, such as ones based on their mark (Blight Grenades for Nurgle, Sonic Weapons for Slaanesh). Sorcerors need more Powers. Chosen should be able to choose their veteran skill (Infiltrate, Furious Charge, Stubborn) as well as some more equipment. Terminators should get a similar treatment. Perhaps Icons grant new weapons (Icon of Slaanesh grants a Blastmaster or a Doom Siren). And Again, Dreadnaughts should be similar.

Most troops are good, though Icons of Nurgle and Tzeentch should be a few points cheaper, and I also think that, If they don't take a Rhino 1k Sons should be able to teleport into battle (Deep Strike) or just made cheaper. Daemons should be markable for benefits. Chaos Spawn should get a Invulnerable Save, or Poisoned Attacks (Warp Energy). And maybe Fast Attack needs a daemonic engine. I also think that the Pred should get something, like being able to move 6 and still shoot (They are supposed to be mobile assault vehicles). But really, Its just expanding options.

Hrogoff the Destructor
27-05-2010, 01:46
Well, since marines got land speeders, assault cannons, plasma cannons, multi-meltas, apothecaries, tech priests, whirlwinds, chaplins, and countless other cool things we don't got like stormshields, sternguard vets, etc. (the list goes on and on)

I would like to see the return of some of our cool stuff that was totally stripped out of our book like:
-Veteran skills
-Daemonic gifts for everyone between aspiring champions and daemon princes.
-For Chaos lords to become "true" followers of their gods (with the respective benefits)
-The return of chaos unique wargear. Giving us (half of) the marine stuff and virutally nothing unique to make up for it is just downright lazy. Give us back khornate chainaxes, combat drugs, and other cult unique wargear. After all, shouldn't khorne berserkers be a threat to everything including terminators?
-Make daemon weapons more distinct than four variants of the manreaper. It currently lacks imagination.
-Return daemon princes to their former glory
-Make possessed, dreadnaughts, and spawn worth a damn (I miss my pet spawns)
-Some chaos unique vehicle upgrades besides daemonic possesion (like mutated hull)
-Make chosen customizable again.
-Give us daemons back. If you look at the Imperial Guard they have about as many tank variants as the 3.5 chaos book had unit choices. Is it really that big of a deal to throw chaos back together?
-If it is that big of a deal and they don't give us proper daemons, at least make a way for cult armies can. My nurgle army without plaguebearers, nurglings, and the great unclean one are so lonely without each other! Restrict the cults by allowing only units dedicated to the proper god
-Legions. We need them back. A unique hero for every legion would be nice.

As it stands Chaos is just Space Marines without the cool bits (but they do got plague marines).

Lars Porsenna
27-05-2010, 03:58
So, despite 6000 years of history saying losing your standard is bad, the fact that disgracing the chaos gods is likely to get you lobotomized with a drill, you still think that a chaos marines reaction to losing a warp filled badge of honour and rage should be 'meh'. Not all chaos marines are devote fanatics for the same reason not all Christians are fundamentalist. Thus, loosing the symbol of your devotion is going to be worrying. If not just through fear of punishment.


So in my specific example, the World Eaters, who have been lobotimized to supress self-preservation, and heighten rage, suddenly grow back their brain tissues when they lose their standard...? :confused:

Maybe some of the other legions or renegades roll like that, but as it stands now, it is a major roadblock in creating a WE army that plays in a satisfyingly plausable way...

Damon.

Born Again
27-05-2010, 06:02
Wow, is it this time again already? Hell, I'll get my 2cents in while the thread is still fresh.



Extra Dimensional Transports - As an upgrade option for transport vehicles, using dark magic, the vehicle is inscribed with arcane runes which creates a small pocket dimension inside the transport. The inside of the transport is now larger than the outside, think Dr. Who. Rhinos and Land Raiders capacity is now 20.

Daemon Engines - More daemon engines in the Heavy and even Fast Attack slots.

Upgradeable Daemons - Give both greater and lesser Daemons the icon and cult treatment as above. Think of it this way, generic deamons - a small warp breach only a little of the daemons power can get through, icon deamons - a medium warp breach most of the daemons power can get through, cult daemons - large warp breach all of the daemons power can get through.


These things I like. Extra Dimensional Transport sounds like it could be a cool upgrade, though it'd have to have something to cover unloading: any models that cannot fit using the standard rules for dismounting are destroyed in the warp as the transport suddenly reverts to it's usual size. Otherwise it'll give a whole new meaning to "Rhino Rush", with squads of 20 Berzerkers in Rhinos.

Daemon Engines in addition to the Defiler would be cool, but I'm not sure if it'd be best left to Apocalypse. If it made it in to the main book, I think the best thing would be a single customizable unit entry, like the Ork Battlewagon.

Daemons should be able to get "Marks". I don't want daemons to get folded back in, I enjoy them having their own book and it's a good way of showing the difference between a daemon being partially bound by the one summoning it, and when they burst through on their own accord to cause havoc. Basically, the same effect as an Icon, but applying to the whole unit without "dropping the stick" syndrome. Not compulsory, you can retain generic daemons if you wish.

Having said that, I think Icons are just fine as they are for squads. The Chaos Gods are fickle, and demand worship: if you can't keep their icon in the air, then you aren't worthy of their blessing and they can punish you by stripping you of their favour and in game bonuses this provides.

The topic of other cult units (Berzerker Termies, Plague Havocs etc) is a difficult one I'm not sure how to tackle.

The ability to give Marks to Spawn, otherwise just give them a low save (5, or even just 6+). It'd just be cool to see the difference between a Spawn made from a Khorne champion and that from a Nurgle one.

I'm kind of tempted to say Cultists would be cool as a single large unit that could be upgraded to have mutants, beastmen etc (like a Kroot unit), but it may end up seeing the army turned in to too much of a mix of cultists and CSM, and at the end of the day the army is CSM.


The fluff for The Thousand Sons to go forward and FIX the bloody Rubric. Stupid thing. Maybe the Rubric Marines can be Dark Squat Robot Guard!! *curse, mutter*.


The Rubric was the fix.

Raven1
27-05-2010, 06:32
Personally, I would do a complete over hall of the codex.
HQ
Legion specific commanders, Warsmith, Dark Apostle, etc that give some sort of legion specific rule ie. Warsmith grants all "Space Marines" Stubborn while in cover.
These commanders would have the ability to upgrade to a Demon Prince
which add more special rules i.e. Warsmith Demon Prince also has Obliterator rules (but hella expensive)
Also, demon prince special character (maybe Abaddon now a demon prince!?!!?)
Generic Greater Demon but must buy mark

Elites
Chosen being old veterans should show their master abilities heck they are 10,000 years old they should be extremely good at least one thing
Terminators I have no problem with
Possessed: Cheaper and have to buy at least one special power, and Mark where Tzeentch grants like a flame template power
Dreadnought: Seriously screw that stupid crazed throw it out...sorcerer Dreadnought

Troops
more like 3.5 baseline Chaos Space Marines (perhaps cheaper because they do not have ATNKF or whatever the abbreviation is) may buy mark which will make them Berzerkers, PM 1k sons etc. Also may buy Icons keep Undivided same special rule
Generic Demons must buy mark

Fast Attack
Raptors are not freaking assault marines bring back hit and run
Bikes...cheaper? maybe a focus meant for deepstriking other units, anti-tank, anti-Independent Character IDK
Spawn: no slow and purposeful, raise WS & I to 5 or 6, and 3+ cover save and make the unit calvary...maybe then worth the point cost
Demon Engine??? Blood Slaughterer?? IDK

Heavy Support:
Havocs:made for anti-tank multi-meltas?? melta guns while champion is alive unit gets tank Hunter (the model has the weird thing on his head anyway)
Obliterators: Anti-infantry template weapons plasma cannons, Kai Guns??? natural toughness 5
Defiler: Either more dakka or choppa a variant for both as has been said indirect fire plus higher BS, but no fleet. Higher weapon skill and fleet but no indirect fire
Scorpion troop transport: defiler like holds ten models open topped for purposes of embarking and disembarking since all models would be in power armor
Land Raider: maybe few different kinds the land raider is great but assaulting the enemy with lascannons not so smart. perhaps add the ares with the demolisher cannon
Vindicator...the same
predator...the same doesn't have much use with the Defiler, obliterators in same support area

Marks can be taken by any unit that is Chaos Space Marine
Lords
Sorcerers
Demon Princes
Chosen
Terminators
Possessed
Chaos Space Marines
Bikers
Havocs
the mark would make you that cult so we could have cult Lords, Sorcerers, Terminators, Bikers and the like and not all Legion specific commanders would have access to all Lords and perhaps bring in the ancient hatred so if a Commander has Mark of Nurgle then no Mark of Slaanesh and vice versa and the same with the Khorne/Tzeentch

that is how I would rework the codex, perhaps a bit fan boyish but look at the recent codexes.

ascendedjesse
27-05-2010, 06:42
Having read none of these post, I feel I should throw my opinion in because its the cool thing to do.

Daemons and daemon engines should not be included. They have their own thing going now in their own codex. Cultist should not be included, they have their own codex already (IG). I am going to go as far and say Space Marines should not be included either, as they already have 5 books.

chaospantz
27-05-2010, 09:11
Marks instead of Icons Icons are fine but I dont see how when the guy with the Icon dies the rest of the unit looses there upgrade. Dont get me wrong I love the icon models that they put into the CSM box so dont get rid of those but would be nice if when you pay 30pts for an upgrade you can't loose it when a model dies.

Sorc vs Librian Right now the regular SM books give librians the choice of 2 psy powers for free while CSM Sorc have to buy there first one. I would like to see our Sorc start at 115pts. This would leave him with the better stat line than the librian, his 5+ invul save, and give him 1 psy power for free. The second could cost him. Also throw in an option for an upgrade that lets them use 2 psy powers a turn.

Lastly I would like to see Codex released that would let you build a mono god army much like what we see with the SM books. Say if you release a emperors children book it would let you take the upgraded deamonets instead of a generic deamon. Would also include some God specific upgrades for charcters and vehicles.

Born Again
27-05-2010, 09:13
Also, demon prince special character (maybe Abaddon now a demon prince!?!!?)
Generic Greater Demon but must buy mark

Elites
Chosen being old veterans should show their master abilities heck they are 10,000 years old they should be extremely good at least one thing
Terminators I have no problem with
Possessed: Cheaper and have to buy at least one special power, and Mark where Tzeentch grants like a flame template power
Dreadnought: Seriously screw that stupid crazed throw it out...sorcerer Dreadnought

Spawn: no slow and purposeful, raise WS & I to 5 or 6, and 3+ cover save and make the unit calvary...maybe then worth the point cost


First of all, Abaddon could have been a Daemon Prince a dozen times over by now. He chooses not to, or the Gods decide not to make him one as he's more useful to them as he is. A DP special character could be cool though (bring back Doombreed of Foulspawn, not Doomrider!) On the topic of SC's I'd like to see Cypher added back in too, and that's about it. I'm happy with all the rest in there atm. They may not have Legion specific rules, but you've got one for each of the major powers, one for the original Undivided Legions (Abaddon) and one for post-Heresy Renegades (Huron), so that's pretty much all the bases covered.

Secondly, it's a common misconception that Chosen have been fighting for 10,000 years. That's how long ago the Heresy was in Terran time, but the Warp affects time in different ways. So, the Traitors that fled Terra after Horus' defeat may have experienced much longer than this, or only a few days. Anyone who's lasted 10,000 years in their relative time and survived is likely to be a Lord by now. Chosen, in most cases, are just the equivalent of SM vets.

On Possessed, you reminded me. I'm fine with them as they are now, except for the "Scouts" result. Just replace that with an ability to shoot warpfire. R12", S3 or 4 AP5 or 6, Pistols. Much better.

Crazed has always been a part of CSM dreds, it shouldn't go, but maybe it could be dealt with a bit better. Don't get rid of it entirely, though.

Spawn: so you want a WS 6, S5 monster that can move 18" in the turn it charges, with D6 attacks at I6... if you survive, you have to fight a T5 creature with 3 wounds... and a 3+ save? And you think that then they might be worth the points cost? That sort of thing is the major overcompensation that will see entire armies of Spawn in 6th edition.

R Man
27-05-2010, 09:23
So in my specific example, the World Eaters, who have been lobotimized to supress self-preservation, and heighten rage, suddenly grow back their brain tissues when they lose their standard...?

Isn't that what Berserkers are?

maze ironheart
27-05-2010, 09:33
I joined CSM well 40k when the new chaos codex came out so I have no Idea how the previous one was but have been told it's hell lot better then the one we have.I would like marks over icons as paying 40 pt's then everyone going oh the icon bears dead lets not be as tough or as blood crazed anymore.I think possessed should get powers depending on what mark they have like if you have the nurgle mark you get Feel no pain cause they will be actully useful.I would like our defiler to have better armour Value as for crying out loud it is bigger then a dreadnought like armour 13 on front and side not asking for 14 all round.

Erwos
27-05-2010, 11:17
I'm honestly surprised that there's not much clamor for more FA choices. That's one of the gaping holes that I see in most CSM lists.

R Man
27-05-2010, 12:03
I joined CSM well 40k when the new chaos codex came out so I have no Idea how the previous one was but have been told it's hell lot better then the one we have.I would like marks over icons as paying 40 pt's then everyone going oh the icon bears dead lets not be as tough or as blood crazed anymore.I think possessed should get powers depending on what mark they have like if you have the nurgle mark you get Feel no pain cause they will be actully useful.I would like our defiler to have better armour Value as for crying out loud it is bigger then a dreadnought like armour 13 on front and side not asking for 14 all round.

Well, it was certainly much more open. But it was also imbalanced and confusing as hell. At least this codex is clearly laid out and easy to understand.

Damien 1427
27-05-2010, 12:05
Well, it was certainly much more open. But it was also imbalanced and confusing as hell. At least this codex is clearly laid out and easy to understand.

Something I dispute. The last book was easy to understand. Imbalanced, yes, but honestly? The current book was intended for an era when all lists would be akin to it and the Dark Angels codex.

That was thrown out the window rather sharpish, it'd seem.

Mannimarco
27-05-2010, 13:36
^ Agreed

this codex is easy to understand for one simple reason: theres not that much in it, the previous book was nowhere near is unbalanced as the new books and was easy to understand if you read it for more than 5 minutes.

The fact that this "less is more" approach was not carried on into future books really says somthing, almost like they knew it was wrong and went the opposite direction with the new stuff.

To those who say that 3.5 was a horribly overpowered cheesy broken mess I ask you was it more or less broken than....lets say biker nob spam? or vulkan termy spam? or biker seer council spam? or the scouting fleeting first turn charge terminators (AKA the can they/cant they shrike argument) or how about outflanking with whole swathes of imperial guard stuff, or any of the broken overpowerd crap that makes up todays books "oh but you get a siren prince!" "yeah well you get to abuse wound allocation on those nobs and get lots of 3++ saves"

So this is this weeks chaos wishlisting thread, I rather like these and its good to see so many people in agreement on many key issues so here we go:

1: The return of the Legions, yeah I'm saying it (and Im glad lots of other people are as well). I die a little each time I see a Chaos army where the owner has basically said "ok I need an HQ so its gotta be a prince and I need to hold an objective so definately plague marines and I need to attack the enemy objective so khorne berserkers and I need to blow tanks away so obliterators". Codex Black Legion/Red Corsairs is a joke of a book that in no way conveys the true might of the forces of Chaos, we went from being a major insidious cancer eating at the heart of the imperium to a bunch of pirates with daddy issues led by spiky bob over night.

2: RANDOM DOES NOT = CHAOS! there are better ways of representing Chaos without random crazy dreadnought blowing your own units away and possessed you have to roll abilities for, if anything the possessed should have a list of abilities they can buy for a points cost, this would cut out the random altogether and show the power of a daemon possessed marine (although such a squad would get expensive fast)

3: Sorcerers, where to begin. with these guys: so people who directly tap into the very stuff of Chaos, who are centuries old with millenia of experience trafficking with daemons are actually some of the worst psykers in the game? yeah that makes sense

4: more options regarding lords and sorcerers, even somthing as simple as giving them EW might make them a more viable choice, they need more options, more wargear and more fancy chaos toys, people actually look at me in shock when I say "Yeah I have a death guard army, no princes or obliterators"

5: more vehicles, its been what? 10k years since the horus heresy, the dark mech have been exposed to a realm of pure madness where all kinds of wierd and wonderful things happen, where you are inspired to explore possibilities you would never have dreamed of on the outside and whay do they have to show for it? Well they made a defiler and 3 aircraft and took some loyalist stuff and put spikes on it cos as we all know chaos is loyalist + spiky bits after all isnt it?

6: Daemon engines, I see lots of people who want more daemon engines, who want these to occupy the heavy support and fast attack choices, stuff like this already exists and has done for a short while now! look to the blood slaighterer and blight drones, blight drones actually make chaos fast attack worthwhile again. The book is bland and lame as hell but fortunately you can build on it: you dont like any of the HQ choices and dont want to be the guy who takes winged prince number 834734? have you considered necrosius or zhufor for a change of pace? chaos fast attack is bland "woohoo spiky marine on a bike or wierd floating marine who always falls over!" how about a couple of blight drones? thats right chaos just got land speeders. Like the World Eaters but dont want kharn and definately dont want your dreadnoughts blowing up your rhinos? try Lord Zhufor and some blood slaughterers.

7: downplay the pirates with daddy issues and brin back the Legions, yes there are many who will say the legions are all broken up and dont fight together anymore but what we must remember is the legions were freaking huge! even broken up they are still bound to be bigger than a chapter (for the most part), heck even the broken up into hundreds of little warbands World Eaters still managed to pull together somthing like 50k berserkers in M38


Having read none of these post, I feel I should throw my opinion in because its the cool thing to do.

Daemons and daemon engines should not be included. They have their own thing going now in their own codex. Cultist should not be included, they have their own codex already (IG). I am going to go as far and say Space Marines should not be included either, as they already have 5 books.

Kinnda coming across as a troll there, at least read what people are saying then chime in

why shouldnt daemon engines be included? The dark mech have done very little since the heresy is seems and the forge of souls has given the daemons the soul grinder. Really wow there.

and cultists have their own codex (guard) repeat after me: LATD are not not codex guard, yes you can use that book and many people do but its not the same, not even close.

Deadnight
27-05-2010, 13:59
i dont think the chaos codex should be built using the SM one as a baseline. In a lot of ways, i like the new chaos codex, aside from its blandless.

I dont think *legions* should be brought back, per se. Lets face it, the *legions* are gone, and have fallen apart with thousands of years. Even the old IA articles summed it up-the cult legions are no longer unified, alpha legion never were, iron warriors have split up, night lords word bearers, night lords, and black legion are all in a similar boat....

I *like* the focus on individual characters forcing unity through brute force and ruthlessness. I *like* the warband feel. I like *shifting loyalties*, and the rule of the strong, and the fact that the legions are just a bunch of intermingling warriors now-heck, most of the world eaters now serve abaddon of the black legion.... Its far more disorganised and chaotic-the notion of legions seen in fourth ed just felt like the legions were all there, and operating happily with IW armies, Alpha legion armies etc etc. And i honestly feel the designers should keep clear of that.

I dont think there is scope for cult armies. lets face it, those legions broke up. the vast majority of world eaters *became* khorn berzerkers, all the death guard *became* plague marines.... i like how they now serve whoever will lead them to the most skulls. heck, it seems a lot of the new allegiances are to raptor cults and obliterator cults that are beyond the legions...

What do i want to see?
Better HQ options. current chaos lord is a bit bland for my liking. id like to see a more sorcerous sorceror, and the possibility of blood magic (eg take a wound, or inflict a wound, and you get a *free* spell, and summoning. As to daemon princes, the 4th ed. codex still leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth. making them too good just makes every chaos HQ a daemon prince. these guys are *incredibly* rare and awesome individuals-they're the logan grimnars and marneus calgars essentially.

I want to see better posessed. at least let me choose the mutation....

Im happy with cult troops as they are, but i would like to see better options for dedicating squads to a god. CSMs with the mark of khorne would *not* be berserkers, but i dont see why they cant have FC, or +1A.. etc.

Similarly, i like generic daemons, but i like the idea of giving them a mark as well.

Im not too sure on the rest of the stuff that i'd like to see. but things should be chaotic, and old and based on dark powers and sorcery...

Lars Porsenna
27-05-2010, 14:22
Isn't that what Berserkers are?

Yes, but why aren't my Terminators also berzerkers? Or my bikers? Or my chosen?

Damon.

Grimmeth
27-05-2010, 15:07
I'd like a blend of 3.5 ed and 4th ed codex's.
Marks confer their full benefit, not just +1 stat (possible exception being thousand sons and the rubric)
Only troop choice being vanilla CSM, when marked become elite UNLESS a HQ is taken with relevant mark.
A couple of special characters to create Word Bearer/Iron Warriors (or even some special abilities - for example - Chaos Lord may purchase one of the following: Dark Apostle (grants fearless/stubborn to all troops within 6") Warsmith (Grants Servo Arm - Tech Priest repair vehiclesetc) or something equivalent - perhaps a little more army wide special rules - like chapter tactics?
Daemon Princes have grown beyond their mortal ties - so lose this ability - thus meaning more reason to take Lords
Sorcerery should be a more risk/reward system - not sure how to implement this though.

Possessed need a bit of a boost, all troops should be able to have true marks, Dreadnoughts frenzy is fine, but needs to be a little friendlier (only fires at opponent, or maybe you choose if it fire frenzies or attacks in CC? Perhaps LD check to control it?)

The only other thing I'd really like, apart from some altered points costs (Raptors anyone?) is some more fast attack choice - (Open topped Rhino perhaps?) - maybe some better spawn (cheaper and hunt in units? A token armour save of some description?)

Raven1
27-05-2010, 15:29
What I'm really trying to get at Born Again, and I said in my post I might be fanboying it up a little to much. However Spawn are useless and cost more then CSM Biker. I would like to see them as a capable CC unit that is still in the 1-3 unit size.

Possessed aren't terrible as they are now, I don't like the randomness...random does not equal chaos

Dreadnoughts ok so maybe don't get rid of crazed but bring it back to the older codexes meaning you don't shoot your own guys as easily. I would also allow Dreadnoughts to take marks and therefore you can bring back noise weapons, make him a sorcerer

Abaddon, I would just like to see him as a Demon Prince I think the model would be wicked cool

Maybe Chosen should be 10,000 year old veterans? This is the only army except Necrons and maybe tyranids that has millenia old soldiers I think it should reflect as such

Also, I liked Doomrider, but maybe a new model and get rid of that stupid disappears on you randomly and you have a Lord on a bike that hits like a Monstrous Creature. It's tycho on a bike.

Definately bring back Cypher

MagosHereticus
27-05-2010, 15:33
I'd like mutants, big mutants and chaos cultists to have a place in the list, CSM arent bound by the codex astrates as should get the option to field an army like they would of during the latter stages of the great crusade and the heresy

edit also deamons should have a few minor upgrade options so that there is a difference between bloodletters and horrors on the battle field

Kurgash
27-05-2010, 16:21
I'd like mutants, big mutants and chaos cultists to have a place in the list, CSM arent bound by the codex astrates as should get the option to field an army like they would of during the latter stages of the great crusade and the heresy

Exactly. Who are the Chaos Marines going to throw into the maws of thousands of cannons while they march behind? They call the warbands to the planet when there is a strong enough warp presence, we can't just assume the Chaos fleets are floating around space for years on end tapping at their consoles then aimlessly hit a planet. That is Ork procedure, damnit.

Mannimarco
27-05-2010, 16:55
The problem with allowing all kinds of mutants and traitor guard into the CSM list is you run the risk of it no longer being about the marines, this is why a codex LATD is needed. Id be happy enough if it was just like the vraks lists with updated points costs

These cultists (if they are to be included) should be an option in word bearer and alpha legion type armies as they're the most likely to actually use this type of force IMHO

Darkmaw
27-05-2010, 17:33
Bring back the Chaos Legions (& Books of Chaos)!!

Going by the latest trend of Characters affecting Force Organisation, perhaps moving the Cult troops back to elite and allowing the representative characters to "revert" them back to Troops.

The troops could be CSM and Cultists; Possessed. These are common denominators for most CSM armies. (Not to mention most MEQs have 2-3 troops)

Elites could be Bezerkers, Noise Marines, Plaguemarines and 1k sons, Terms and Dreads. Having say Kharn makes Bezerkers troops; Lucius NM, Typhus PM, Ahriman TS; Abbadon: All of them

For the rest of the legions,

IW: Warsmith character allowing 1 unit of Oblits/Vindicator to be troop (like how an Ork Mek makes a Dread Troop)
NightLord: Night Lord character makes Raptors troops.
Alpha Legion: Troops gain infiltrate
Word Bearers: A Dark Apostle allows more specialised demons? (or bring back the original Chaos Demons)

Just some wishlisting

the hivemind
27-05-2010, 19:21
Less Random Possessed - Make it an upgrade that a Ld test allows you to select what power they have that turn. This way the Marines are ascerting their will over the daemon's.

or simply make it so that you roll for their power BEFORE you deploy them.

also: bring back daemonic gifts and veteran skills.

they are what gave the old codex a lot of its character and made it fun to use.

jsullivanlaw
27-05-2010, 21:04
I'd like to see Marks rather than icons. I'd like to see more customization options on the HQ's. More chaosy vehicle upgrades. I would like to see Cultists and REAL daemons. Cult terminators. I want all the chaos god sacred numbers retconned to be 10.

ReveredChaplainDrake
27-05-2010, 21:28
-Rewrite the fluff. Chaos Marines rebel for various reasons, and to various causes. They're not all whiny power-munchkins. It feels like a Space Marine Chaplain or Imperial propagandist wrote the fluff. Go figure.

-FIX WARPTIME! :mad: Heck, FAQ Warptime. I'm sick of "re-roll all the dice" being a valid rules interpretation. I'm about 95% sure they meant "any". They should say it.

-Make Daemon Princes nasty, but 0-1.

-Daemon Prince Dhar'leth: For those who missed the reference, this is the Prince that the metal (non-Nurgle) Daemon Prince is based off of. Note the plastic Daemon Prince coming out as well. Given GW's penchant for bringing back old metal models as new metal special characters (see Old One Eye and... pretty much every BA character except Moriar), I think this is not only feasible, but is likely to happen.

-Bring back Retinues.

-Chaos variant Land Raider: Come on, if Chaos Marines can come up with something like a Defiler, you think they can't bolt some large flamers onto a Land Raider? For that matter, do you think they couldn't just steal a Space Marine Land Raider? I thought that was how they got all their gear...

-Possessed. Deciding the trait after deployment worked in 4th, but it won't work in 5th. Make the roll before, or at least during deployment.

-Spawn. Cut their points in half. That, or shave off 10 pts, lose Slow and Purposeful (but not Rage, that actually makes sense) and add Feel No Pain. Or, trade Slow and Purposeful and Beast for Feel No Pain and cutting their cost in half. Spawn don't need to be that fast.

-A limited return of Daemonic Gifts. In particular, Strength, Armor, Essence, Rune, and Mutation. It doesn't need to be a really long list. In fact, those five are the big ones. Something akin to how Space Wolf sagas work.

-A return of the internal warfare mechanics between opposing Chaos gods. If CSM are to have a heavy balancing (or nerfing) factor, this should be it! It's fluff supported, and it lets players take themed lists without feeling that they're voluntarily gimping themselves.

-Standardized costs. Why exactly are Raptors more expensive than Assault Marines? Because of the option to take an Icon?

-Undivided. Make taking Undivided marks, or even no marks at all, a reasonable idea.

-Let Daemons take Marks of Chaos. Don't give the full Daemon rules (save that for LatD), but something to differentiate Bloodletters from Horrors.

-A return of dedicated Daemonvessels that can accept or reject possession.

-If they insist on using Huron Blackheart, give him Master of the Fleet rules. C'mon, it's not that much of a jump.

Raven1
27-05-2010, 23:57
I really believe Raptors are more expensive because they accidently left out hit and run, I mean why else, lighting claws and Icons have an added cost.

I would really love to see some demon engines. Those would be nice, Chaos doesn't have the Priesthood of Mars, but it does have something better, a non-dogmatic dark mechanicus with access to the warp. We should have some sick looking cross warp-spawned machines.

I really think Marks should be brought back and allow it to make cult lords, chosen, terminators, troops and the like.

R Man
28-05-2010, 00:06
Yes, but why aren't my Terminators also berzerkers? Or my bikers? Or my chosen?

I see. I thought you were attacking the idea of standards. However, if you want some elite units to have marks than I must agree with you. It would not hurt to have at least marked terminators/chosen.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
28-05-2010, 00:53
you know I would just be happy if they just copy and pasted the 3.5 codex.
Alter the iron warriors bit and all is good.

Zurken
28-05-2010, 01:44
Hurr durr nerf lash durr :P

Serously though, I would like to see Cultist as a Troop option. There isn't really any army that mixes T4 and T3 rly, it would be nice to have one (yeah Deamonhunter + Allies, but I think they're going phase out that in the up coming Grey Knight codex)

Garanaul the Black
28-05-2010, 03:23
My 2 cents...



Sorc vs Librian Right now the regular SM books give librians the choice of 2 psy powers for free while CSM Sorc have to buy there first one. I would like to see our Sorc start at 115pts. This would leave him with the better stat line than the librian, his 5+ invul save, and give him 1 psy power for free. The second could cost him. Also throw in an option for an upgrade that lets them use 2 psy powers a turn.


THIS. Seriously. I want to field a Sorcerer Lord of Nurgle, to do it correctly I have to give him the MoT and that just doesn't sit well with me.

OUR OWN Land Raider variant(s), maybe something customizable or Legion specific? They all fight in their own style, their wargear should reflect that.

Feasible Mono God lists that aren't automatically Legion lists. This is a personal one, I love Nurgle but I also love tanks. I'm not a fan of the 'Death Guard don't believe in transports' background, never was. Sure, Plague Marines are tough, but theres so much out there that can ignore that fact that its a little absurd to completely forgo the added insurance of a vehicle. They may worship the God of Despair, but they're not stupid. This last one is just a pet peeve of mine.

Tinker with Chosen, the Dread, Spawn, Possessed, and Raptors. They're all OK, but really need to be brought in line with all of the stuff thats being released currently.

Personally, if this new wave of books and supplements are the way things are going I CAN'T WAIT for a new C:CSM. Its going to be incredible ( @ naysayers: Don't shatter my dream :p ).

G

Mannimarco
28-05-2010, 03:50
Quick question:

do people who complain about the chaos dex look at what else is available to add to it? I see some dont like the whole death guard and transports issue, the death guard factions have been known to use transports, its in vraks 3 and as we all know the newer book always supercedes the old one (its just this time we're doing it with fluff)

Want a death guard sorcerer lord? want those 2 spells instead of being stuck with 1? want somthing better than typhus (oh is that a powerfist *thwack* 220 points gone) look no further than necrosius, thats your sorcerer lord right there.

I know I keep getting at this but its worth saying it again: yes the current book is bland as hell but fortunately theres quite a lot out there that you can add to it for that much needed variety, we dont need to constantly say "i want more options and more daemon engines, I wish GW would write them into the next book" they dont have to write anything new, all this stuff already exists

Mabd
28-05-2010, 05:44
Mabd: The Rubric was around before this codex. It's been established for a long time, and it essentially makes the Thousand Sons immortal, if mindless.



The Rubric was the fix.

Yes, I understand all that. Been playing/reading since the beginning for a LOOOOONG time now, but the thing has always been the same for me... I don't like the Rubric.

Take one of the coolest Legions... make it crap (fluffwise... TT is debatable). BAH!!! raaage!!! lol, going Khornate!

AussieSocks
28-05-2010, 06:20
Drop pods and daemonic gifts.

Why the hell not?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Born Again
28-05-2010, 06:46
Yes, but why aren't my Terminators also berzerkers?

I realize this arguement doesn't hold up for Death Guard, Thousand Sons etc, but I can't imagine raging Berzerkers, eager to chase down the enemy and slaughter them as soon as possible, want to lumber around in suits of heavy terminator armour. Death Guard termies, yes, Berzerker termies... never really made sense to me.


What I'm really trying to get at Born Again, and I said in my post I might be fanboying it up a little to much. However Spawn are useless and cost more then CSM Biker. I would like to see them as a capable CC unit that is still in the 1-3 unit size.


I agree Spawn need to be improved, but for me I think a basic save would do it. The random move and attacks are fine with me, some Spawn are just quivering piles of flesh that are good for nothing, others are fearsome beasts. Some upgrades, like the ability to give them marks or USR might make them more flexible, though.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
28-05-2010, 13:38
I think spawn should only be available through casting a spell onto an enemy unit. Not worth KP tho!

Thanatos_elNyx
28-05-2010, 14:00
Legions
Sorcerers being different to Psykers. (And lots of powers for both)
Cult Terminators
More Veteran abilities (Why was H&R taken off Raptors)
More Daemon Engines like the Defiler.
Cultists (these would have different abilities depending on which Legion was using them)

Erwos
28-05-2010, 14:09
I'm convinced at this point that the "Chaos Faction" really needs three codexes to be accurately represented:
1. Lost and the Damned (Traitor Guard, Cults, and Eye of Terror Warbands)
2. Daemons
3. Chaos Space Marines

Given that GW has already put out all of the models that you'd need to make a LatD army, excepting any truly new units, you really have to wonder why they're not pursuing that path at all. Think of all the models they could sell for, at worst, the cost of generating a PDF army list!

Logan_uc
28-05-2010, 17:11
1-old mark sistem. if you want special CSM get the mark, dont give me a base, a half way, and a end is needless

2-veteran skills. this was one of the thing that made CSM specials, they could be veterans with thousands of years of war in the belt

3-demonic gifts. this is the other thing that made CSM special, they sold their soul for some thing. they should be less then before ( no more slaanesh lord of drug induced hell), DP should only have access to god specific gifts ( for fluff reasons)

4-sorcerers more like librarians. this is something that i like in the SM books, the librarians choose from a list of powers, it makes things more simple, but give more powers depending on the mark.

5-deamons with some options. just 4 optins for each kind of deamon to make them more god specific.

6-legion pecific rules, for example special chars.

7-chosen get 1 more attack, and termi armour is optional like in the old days.

8-playable dreads and possessed.

9-new armour. is there a resort for dark mechanicus in the eye??? they should start working on some metal monsters instead of siting on their ****, some indirect fire is very needed.

10-last but not least, sacred numbers counting for something, and NO MORE TEA PARTY OF THE GODS:mad:

PS: make GD's as bad **** as they should be...

Raven1
28-05-2010, 18:18
2-veteran skills. this was one of the thing that made CSM specials, they could be veterans with thousands of years of war in the belt

I don't think we would get anything back like veteran skills, but if certain units like Raptors, or Havocs had USRs or perhaps if the Lords gave special rules it would be just fine



I agree Spawn need to be improved, but for me I think a basic save would do it. The random move and attacks are fine with me, some Spawn are just quivering piles of flesh that are good for nothing, others are fearsome beasts. Some upgrades, like the ability to give them marks or USR might make them more flexible, though.

My problem with random movement is that it is not effective for a CC unit to have take away slow and purposeful, but keep mindless...If I personally were a Chaos Lord I wouldn't take quivering piles of flesh to battle only the fearsome scary beasts.
Perhaps they should get beefed up significantly, because they are the worst worst worst fast attack choice ever...hell they aren't even fast. And as said only allowed through the pertaining psychic power, and while the Psycher is still alive they are not slow and purposeful but if he dies they gain that USR sort of like 1ksons

Colonel Kolm
28-05-2010, 18:59
as a new Nugle/Death Guard player i would love to see god specific plastic models come out for daemon princes/lords/ etc. i would also love to see characters for each of the gos armies as well as perhaps new daemons for them since they are the chosen army of that god. most notably though id like to see each one get their own set of rules so they can be fluffy again instead of add on to generic armies.

MarshalFaust
28-05-2010, 19:18
I would like to see a landraider variant with plasma cannon sponsons and a twin linked plasma gun turret.

Zweischneid
28-05-2010, 19:23
I would like to see a Landraider with some twin-linked "heavy" Kai guns or other funky/wierd demon/warp weapons unknown to the loyalists!

Inquisitor_Tolheim
28-05-2010, 20:42
I know folks are saying that Chaos needs 3 codices, but I staunchly oppose that. Chaos needs 1 big codex that allows several permutations. If you split up LatD, Daemons, and Chaos, you get one unique army (Daemons) one that's a near imperial guard clone (LatD) and yet another space marine clone (CSM). It's the combination of these three disparate elements of chaos that make playing a chaos army different from playing any other armies.

Had too much time on my hands today, and wrote this up as how I would like to see the list:

HQ

Daemon Prince: Extremely expensive, super scary monster unit. May take a Mark of Chaos.
Chaos Lord: Includes options to take psychic powers/terminator armor/etc. Upgradable to one of the Special Character options below. May take Mark of Chaos.
Apostate Leader: LatD style commander. Inexpensive option, perhaps includes Ig style command squad?
Daemonic Herald: May be marked for different herald types.


ELITES

Chosen: Terminator Armor upgrade option, May take a Mark of Chaos
Big Mutants: Similar to the old LatD list.
Dreadnought: With a less severe "crazed" rule.
Possessed: Daemonic upgrades are purchased/selected prior to deployment (think IG Stormtrooper deployment strategies)
Cult Troops: One entry each for Berserkers, Rubric Marines, Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Cult troops come with their respective mark of chaos.


Troops:

Chaos Space Marines: May take a mark of chaos. Similar to what they are currently.
Chaos Cultists: Large blob of cheap bodies, LD7 or even 6, if Daemons are summoned from this unit d6 models are removed as casualties. May purchase an Aspiring Champion sergeant upgrade for improved leadership/statline. No marks, but have various "mutation" upgrades that can be purchased.
Daemons: May purchase a mark of Chaos. Furies are Chaos Undivided. Does not take up a FoC slot?
Rhino Dedicated transport for units in power armor.


Fast Attack:

Chaos Bikers: May take Mark of Chaos.
Raptors: May take Mark of Chaos.
Daemonic Beasts/Steeds: May take Mark of Chaos, changes unit to various daemon choices (bloodcrushers, beasts of nurgle, etc).
New Daemon Engine?
Chaos Spawn: May take a mark of chaos: Khorne = rending, Slannesh = reduce I of enemy models in base to base to 1, Nurgle = Feel no Pain, Tzeentch = shooting attack.


Heavy Support:

Chaos Space Marine Land Raider: Variant weapons options?
Defiler: May take marks of chaos. Upgrade to Soulgrinder available.
Vindicator: As is.
Havocs: May take a Mark of Chaos.
Obliterators: As is, perhaps a 0-2 choice?
Predator: As is.
Greater Daemon: May take a mark of chaos, changes to respective greater daemon (some bonus for MoCU). Does not take up a FoC slot?


Special Characters:
Here I am just going to list the legion army wide special rules. One for each character, and Huron Blackheart for the renegade players:

Black Legion: All cult troops available as troops choices, Units may take any mark of chaos, no marks of chaos on daemon entries.
World Eaters: May only include marks of Khorne, Berserkers become troops choices, Units with MoK gain Furious Charge.
Emperor's Children: May only take Mark of Slannesh. Noise Marines become troops choices. Units with MoS gain access to sonic weaponry.
Death Guard: Mark of Nurgle only. Plague Marines become troops. Units with the Mark of Nurgle gain Feel no Pain (or another defensive bonus of some kind).
Thousand Sons: Mark of Tzeentch only, Rubric Marines become troops choices. Sergeants from units with the Mark of Tzeentch may purchase and use a psychic power.
Alpha Legion: No marks of chaos, no Daemons: All infantry without a transport gain the infiltrate special rule, Chosen count as scoring units.
Iron Warriors: Only Mark of Chaos Undivided, No Daemons, may trade their Fast Attack or Elites secton for an additional Heavy Support slot.
Word Bearers: Only Marks of Chaos undivided on non-daemon models. Daemon models may include any mark. Daemons may deepstrike anywhere on the table (can assault after DS) or be summoned per the current rules. HQ gives stubborn USR to units in range.
Red Coursairs: Not quite sure what to do here. Something with looting would be interesting, but then you're doing allies stuff, which GW is shying away from.


The Mark on your HQ unit (or lack thereof) determines the marks available to the rest of your army, per the 3.5 codex.

*****

Of course, this is all off the cuff, would have to be revised and would take some considerable work to properly internally balance. But if it was done carefully it would make chaos a flexible, unique army in its own right rather then several fractured codices that are barely distinguishable from already existing armies.

Erwos
28-05-2010, 20:52
The problem with the whole Iron Warriors "2FA for 1HS trade" concept is that there's not a whole lot worth taking in the FA section, so everyone naturally gravitates towards that Legion in terms of competitive play. GW has done a great job of making CSM squads into fast-moving, hard-hitting, tough-as-nails units, but there's very little apparent reason to spend the points or the cash on bikes or raptors any more. As others have noted, we need _something_ in the FA section that's a vehicle.

I keep promoting my "pre-Heresy Razorback" (call it something else) that has no transport capacity, but does have scout and special reserve rules. Others want a daemonic engine. Frankly, either would be an improvement.

Scribe of Khorne
28-05-2010, 20:55
It really shouldnt be this difficult.

1 - Make a big book, call it Codex: Chaos
2 - Make true legion armies possible, i spit in the general direction of this 'renegade' concept.
3 - Allow for LatD type armies.

Those should be the big three starting points imo, more details to follow.

World Eaters would be like this.

HQ
DP
Lord
Bloodthirster

Elite
Chosen (Uberberzerkers, more special weapons, maybe FnP)
Terminators (Cult obviously)
Dreads
WE Bloodcrushers (this is core fluff here people!!)

Troops
Berzerkers
Blood Letters

FA
Bikes
JP (if Wolves get them in some form...)
Flesh Hounds

Heavy
Blood Slaughterer (Move to fast maybe or elite?)
LR (How about a nice variant with 16 troop capacity?)
Defiler (move to Fast maybe?)
Pred
Vind

Dedicated Transports
Drop Pods (we are the drop pod legion and we dont get them???????)
Rhinos

And whatever else I missed that makes sense.

DigitalDogParty
28-05-2010, 21:02
I don't do Chaos Space Marines(Though I was going to do them a while back before they got updated), I think there could be a few cool things that the next book could have.


I think something along the lines of that one rule that Warriors of Chaos have in Fantasy could prove kinda cool. That chart that you role on once your leaders or "Independent Characters" slay an opponent. In this case, an independent character, or perhaps a nominated one. If your HQ or person kills that nominated enemy, then you could roll on a chart or gain more benefits to the god you serve under. Also, you could pay for an ability that allows you to roll under this chart before the game. For example, you roll two fives which equal a ten; that means you receive an extra attack for the game. Others could be re-roll to wound, to hit, better strength, re-roll leadership, anything. Though, there could also be risks involved. Like, maybe if you roll doubles, then you're screwed. Or a certain number perhaps? Who knows.

I also think there should be two kinds of Dreadnoughts. Ones that are just normal with gun options that are similar to normal Space Marines, and then a frenzied possessed one made for close combat.

I also think Cultists should be put in, just because that would get real interesting. Renegade Imperial Guard were an army I always wanted to do, but due to their whole situation and price cost, I can't do it. Bringing them in really shows their whole 'Corrupt' theme. But I think making it so you can't have a whole troop army based on them is illegal. Let's say...you can't have more Cultists than Marines? So you can set the...fluff is it? Set the fluff that the Cultists were only there for recon and capturing.

Is that it? Hm. Oh, bring drop pods into the mix as well. Maybe drop pods that have powers with them. Perhaps there could be risks with using them or something. Or they can do direct damage like the Trygon/Mawloc does when they deep strike. Sounds solid.

Born Again
30-05-2010, 15:37
My problem with random movement is that it is not effective for a CC unit to have take away slow and purposeful, but keep mindless...If I personally were a Chaos Lord I wouldn't take quivering piles of flesh to battle only the fearsome scary beasts.
Perhaps they should get beefed up significantly, because they are the worst worst worst fast attack choice ever...hell they aren't even fast. And as said only allowed through the pertaining psychic power, and while the Psycher is still alive they are not slow and purposeful but if he dies they gain that USR sort of like 1ksons

It's true, I have always wondered why they were put in the FA slot... sure they have the potential to cover a decent distance in one turn, but you'd have to be lucky with your dice rolls.

Mannimarco
30-05-2010, 17:00
probably thinking its the only slot really open to them, they're certainly not heavy support, they are not elites and theres already a lot in the troops section

Garanaul the Black
30-05-2010, 22:26
probably thinking its the only slot really open to them, they're certainly not heavy support, they are not elites and theres already a lot in the troops section


What if they were considered a troops choice like summoned demons are? Non-scoring in their case, and don't count towards minimum / maximum troops requirements. I can certainly see the fluff backing it up, with the warp as dangerous as it is, a Chaos Lord would have tons of these things on hand.



I know I keep getting at this but its worth saying it again: yes the current book is bland as hell but fortunately theres quite a lot out there that you can add to it for that much needed variety, we dont need to constantly say "i want more options and more daemon engines, I wish GW would write them into the next book" they dont have to write anything new, all this stuff already exists

Absolutely. However my problems with this are two-fold:

-Friendly games sure, but the campaign thats currently eating up all of my gaming time won't allow Forge World rules or units mixed in.

-Those books are absurdly expensive! Maybe I'm cheap, but they each come out to almost $60 (US) before shipping and what are the chances I'm going to order them and not add a figure or two (or three) to save on shipping 'in the long run'. :D

Other than those points, I agree with you completely.

G

Triple7s
30-05-2010, 23:28
Fearless terminators would be nice, its embarassing having terminators with the mark of khorne run away on you.

Bring daemon stat lines in proportion to their respective gods or leave em out completely. You can't tell me that a Lord of Change has the same S/T as a Bloodthirster.

The Marks could do with a look, as it stands the Mark of Khorne is the worst imo, it should be brought more into line with what Khorne represents, rather than just another attack maybe make it +1 strength and +1 attack in cc or something.

Cultists would be fantastic, as would drop pods.

In model terms, it'd be nice to see god specific upgrade kits for terminators instead of just Death Guard/World Eaters, a new vanilla dread would be nice, and (purely opinion here) the raptors could do with a look.

Mannimarco
31-05-2010, 01:40
most definately, those raptors are a nightmare and always topple over and a new plastic dread would be great as the metal one is definately showing its age now.

on the down side dread socking sombody with a plastic dreadnought just isnt the same

spawn as a non scoring troops choice that dont take up spaces, I could see that working

Its unfortunate that the stigma on forgeworld models and rules remains, it really is

yes the books and models are can be prohibitively expensive, its nice to have them but theyre not essential to the hobby, I own a whole ton of FW stuff and cant bring myself to use anything else, its pretty addictive lol

Raven1
31-05-2010, 01:59
Im still trying to figure out why Raptors lost hit and run...and even though these Raptors are top heavy they look much better than the old ones, man those were butt ugly.

AS for Spawn, they don't really have a place in the FOC definitely not HQ, not elites (plus Chosen and Terminators rock), Troops are full of awesome, Heavy Support again is full of awesome (Obliterators, Defilers, Vindicators), Fast Attack was honestly the only choice for them...if I was in charge they would not be apart of the FOC because well they aren't fast, and as expensive as Raptors and bikers are they are a no-brainer when it comes down to should I take Bikers/Raptors or Spawn?

Mannimarco
31-05-2010, 02:27
off topic I know but a while ago a few of us were toying with the idea of having spawn bought as wargear for the chaos lord, theres old fluff out there stating that somtimes when a champion becomes a spwan his old followers somtimes keep him around as a pet, its kinnda fitting we thought

Garanaul the Black
31-05-2010, 02:35
off topic I know but a while ago a few of us were toying with the idea of having spawn bought as wargear for the chaos lord, theres old fluff out there stating that somtimes when a champion becomes a spwan his old followers somtimes keep him around as a pet, its kinnda fitting we thought

That would be awesome and fluffy. Especially awesome if wounds could spread out onto Spawn. :angel:

How would transports work in your scenario? Spawn = 2 spaces?

As it stands, I would love to field Spawn, but really see no point other than a distraction. If only they were cheaper / better, maybe like CSM's version of Blood Crushers or Thunder Wolves?

G

fullmetal78
31-05-2010, 05:36
what about adding the dark apostile and war smith to HQ? give them abilities that allow them to alter FOC to make word bearers and iron warriors uniqe again.

Scribe of Khorne
31-05-2010, 07:00
what about adding the dark apostile and war smith to HQ? give them abilities that allow them to alter FOC to make word bearers and iron warriors uniqe again.

Stuff like this should happen for sure. When they get around to giving us an entertaining book I hope every legion gets a way either through a SC or something to create a more true representation of their legion.

Oh and Kharn should be an upgrade in a berzerker squad like Lemartes, and Arjac.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
01-06-2010, 02:44
what about adding the dark apostile and war smith to HQ? give them abilities that allow them to alter FOC to make word bearers and iron warriors uniqe again.

I think the easiest way to do this is just 1 SC per legion. Sure, that means we have a minimum of eight special characters (more if you want to put Cypher, Huron, etc into the codex) but it makes putting all the legions into one book a much simpler prospect. And let's face it: they're all spiky space marines of various colors, with 85% of their army lists completely interchangeable. There is no logical reason why they should all need individual codices.

EDIT:
Spawns as wargear is an interesting idea. Are we talking as a retinue style add on or just as a separate single model unit outside of the FoC? I kind of like the idea of a spawn or three just being released onto the battlefield prior to the attack to soften up the enemy.

Mannimarco
01-06-2010, 03:16
The models may be interchangable but with a seperate book for some of the legions there would be a lot more god specific units in there to bulk the book out, look to the loyalist books:

what makes a blood angel different from an ultramarine? not much until the book gets filled out with sanguimary guard etc so the same could be said for codex death guard (no I dont want 9 legion books, that would slow things down way to much) you would have 2 or 3 character HQs, new elites, new troops, new fast attack (maybe not though) and new heavy support.

as for spawn as pets/wargear we looked to the dreaded chaos 3.5 for inspiration where you could buy chaos hounds.

we gave them the retinue rule so wounds could be passed on to them although we tried to balance it out by not allowing the lord to ride in a transport. While this made spawn a more attractive choice it did weaken the lord as he wouldnt be able to ride around in a land raider or rhino, this did however make termy lords with a spawn (we limited it to 1 spawn) joining units of deepstriking terminators quite popular and more realistic rather than the commonly used termicide teams

Inquisitor_Tolheim
01-06-2010, 16:12
The models may be interchangable but with a seperate book for some of the legions there would be a lot more god specific units in there to bulk the book out, look to the loyalist books:

what makes a blood angel different from an ultramarine? not much until the book gets filled out with sanguimary guard etc so the same could be said for codex death guard (no I dont want 9 legion books, that would slow things down way to much) you would have 2 or 3 character HQs, new elites, new troops, new fast attack (maybe not though) and new heavy support.

See, that's where our opinion differs: I've examined the loyalist books and I don't think there's really anything in there that couldn't be approximated with a page of special rules attached to a special character in the standard SM books. While there are some new options, the main gist of the army is still almost exactly the same, the stat lines don't vary, the FoC suffers only a minor reshuffle and most units only gain a single new rule and/or wargear option. There are exceptions, but I question whether they merit entire different codices.

Still, If GW were to split up chaos space marines, I could see them doing two codices: Chaos Undivided and Legions of the Dark Gods. Chaos Undivided would have the Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Night Lords, while Legions of the Gods would have the World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons. Seems like the best way to split it up so that everyone gets something special without splitting into 5+ codices.

FabricatorGeneralMike
01-06-2010, 16:17
i wish for gav thorpe to be chained up in a cell somewhere being beaten with sticks for as long as it takes for the new book to be written and published so he cant interfere.

and what kurgash said.

I agree with what pringles said just on general principals..... heres how I would of said that above sentence...."i wish for Andy Chambers to be chained up in a cell somewhere being beaten with sticks for as long as it takes for the new book to be written and published so he can bring back the flavour of chaos to 40k.


heh, fixed that for ya pringles ;)

Mannimarco
01-06-2010, 16:29
The idea of having 1 book for the cult legions and another for the undivided ones is put out there quite a lot, its a good idea that I could see lots of chaos players getting behind, i know I would.

the loyalists getting all these books does slow things down as well, I realise its done like this because they are the big sellers so getting a new book generates a lot of money for GW but I still think the loyalist book could and would work with a generic list then a few pages in there saying "if you want to play blood angels then you can buy stuff from this section to add to the generic list to make them, if you want to play space wolves theres a different list over the page, salamanders the next page etc"

it would be a fair sized book although remember chaos 3.5 had a similar set up, i know its not done this way anymore but that worked:

I had my generic stuff, to make a death guard army I go to the book of nurgle sna dbuy stuff from that list, if I wanted world eaters it was another page full of stuff to buy and add to the generic list

please dont bad mouth Gav, it wasnt solely his fault, just like codex nids wasnt solely Robins fault just like codex: you wish you were a smurf isnt solely Matts fault

Logarithm Udgaur
01-06-2010, 16:43
But we are allowed to badmouth Gav, if you badmouth Allessio (sp?) you get warning points like I did.

Erwos
01-06-2010, 16:45
The idea of having 1 book for the cult legions and another for the undivided ones is put out there quite a lot, its a good idea that I could see lots of chaos players getting behind, i know I would.
What I'd actually like to see is one codex that lists off the units and provides a generic Chaos force list, and then _online_ supplemental materials that would redefine the codex such that you could make cult armies and the like. There's two reasons I promote that line of action:
1. Online materials can be updated without much work, so if there are unintended consequences to certain less-play-tested lists, they can be fixed quickly and easily. (eg, the 3.5E IW debacle could have been resolved fast.)
2. There are just not enough Chaos players to justify four (Daemons, Four Powers, Non-Aligned, LatD) codexes. Two is already stretching it, and I'd argue that Chaos Daemons was just a thinly-veiled marketing attempt to lure WHFB players to 40k ("one army, two games!").

Damien 1427
01-06-2010, 17:32
please dont bad mouth Gav, it wasnt solely his fault

No, it's his, he did the majority of the work. Check the credits at the back, it states it was written by Gav Thorpe, with addition text by Alessio Cavatore.

If the design direction had stuck, and Codex You Totally Wish You Were A Smurf had been on the same lines, there wouldn't be the problem. Or, rather, there wouldn't be as much of a problem. It's just we got a lot of stuff taken away in a misguided attempt at balance (And look, we can still make abusive lists!), so we get a list that loses a lot of... flavour, and attempts at being "Chaosy" were some rather mediocre Daemon Weapons (No Axe of Khorne? Really, gents? Really?), the return of random Possessed, and Dreadnoughts murdering your own troops again.
Then five minutes later, Loyalists get a thousand-and-one shiny new bits of kit, new options, and a Codex that has a lot more, well, flavour and bite to it. It was a bit of a kick in the power-armoured codpiece, truth be told.
I certainly don't expect a new book before the Ordos, Necrons, Dark Eldar or Codex Space Sharks, but when our time does come around again, I hope we're on an even playing field again.

Oh, and if you want a Chaos Cultist mob, here's my take on the concept. Dirt cheap cannon-fodder. I tied it into my LATD list, although the Alpha-Plus Psyker HQ choice tends to use them to power his own abilities.