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Malorian
27-05-2010, 23:03
So I hear some people say brets are screwed in 8th ed, and all that does is makes me want to win with them more :D

That being said we don't want to go charging in without a battle plan...

What are people thoughts on who brets will have to evolve to deal with the new edition?


Personally I think either one of three things will happen:

1. Peasants will be a much in order to get cheap ranks to counter the ranks of the opponents (so the opponent won't be stubborn).

2. Take massive units of knights so that you have a ton of ranks (so the opponent won't be stubborn).

3. Questing knights and killy characters will be a must to win drawn out battles.


Thoughts?


Edit:

Ok there is a forth option... the archer/treb army of doom ;)

ewar
27-05-2010, 23:28
My thoughts are:

- stubborn units are going to be a big problem, my personal thought is not to engage them until you can get a ranked knight unit in the flank (6 errants will be good for this)

- MR from Damsels will be more useful, current rumour implies it will boost the blessing to 4+ against decent strength magic

- A pair of trebs (already my favoured rare choice at 2k) just became unbelievably good. Very long range, no guess and S5/10 without partials will be exceptionally useful at softening up deathstars

- spamming cheap Paladins is an option

- using virtue of extra d6" will become more useful

- questing knights will have a use, though personally I think if you're charging a unit you're unlikely to break in a single round then your charging the wrong thing

- the reduction in flying monsters will be a boon to Brets, nothing ruins a lance heavy army's day more than a dragon lord or bloodthirster.

- units of 15 ranked bowmen will become pretty handy for only 90pts. I can see myself taking 3 such units.

willowdark
27-05-2010, 23:29
Mounted GW are getting +2 strength back. Welcome back QK. :)

Pending the Errata, the Lance formation will be the optimal knight unit in the game for breaking ranks. No other Knight unit in the game can break ranks as cheaply as Brets can, and Lances will be coming in with a +2 or even +3 rank bonus. Net advantages to Brets.

Trebuchets will own. At 90 pts a pop Brets can bring a pair and still have room under the cap for GK.

With no auto break, the Grail Relique gets a lot better too, especially if Stubborn troops can use the General's Ld as it has been rumoured.

There's a lot of good stuff out there. Truth about M@A though is that, sure, they get buffed, but so does everyone else, so the extra attacks and Stepping Up will only make them look even more average than they do now, if that's possible. They'll still be cheap SCR, but Brets will need those lances on the flank to get anywhere.

Lance formation, dual Trebs, grail relique and probably some consideration for the manditory BSB will all work together to make Brets good this edition.

Lantern
27-05-2010, 23:36
Baring in mind, we dont know the full rules yet (and those finer points that often get missed in rumour milling), planning all the cool things were gonna do may be a tad premature.... that said :) :-

Ok, so charging is now random, a fact I dont like, but it does give us a "greater potential" on our charges (about 24 inches?) and even the average roll of 3D6 comes up at 10, making the average charge about 18 inches for us knights. Whilst this same bonus will apply to a lot of cavalry, Bretonnians will at least get to ignore the barding ( I would assume) and get just that little bit more. Also, the rumoured "free reform" after winnning a combat could see the steamrolling potential of Bretonnians increased as they trounce (presumably ;) ) the opposition, only to turn ans face the flanks of the unit beside them.

The simplyfication of guess weapons now makes trebuchets terrifying, already having longer range than your average stone thrower, they will now land where you want it 1/3 of the time (still better than many can currently manage).

Magics overhaul, though undisclosed for now, could see many gains as the average Bretonnian list only has access to 2 lores, both of which have little potential from the second rank of the knightly units that most damsels find themselves in. Picking spells will help mitigate the line of sight issues and until we know the spells, thats about that can be said here.

Peasants will probably see the most use they ever have now too, with the new objective based games. Having these cheap, banner toting units capture objectives without the threat of them handing the opponent points could be a game changer in terms of the composition of a lot of armies (though I tend to run a lot of peasants anyway).

The main change though is the use of lord level characters in any list.....with a lord on a royal pegasus, flying cavalry armies are no longer limited to larger games, and will most likely be seen at 1500 points (any less and you wouldnt have room for your lord and the core units you need to take).

selone
27-05-2010, 23:41
See willow dark was saying what I'm thinking :o Brets are the only army likely to break ranks with anything other than infantry barring cheap fast cav units. Perhaps good in combination with the grail reliquae. Stubborn troops are the troops that most benefit from the changes to fear. Plus they're only WS 2 anyways :D

I like quite a few cheap units of 10 bowmen (not that convinced by paying 30 more points for 3 more shots and a rank) and some men at arms though don't go too crazy as other armies will have their already better infantry get better.

Dual trebuchets are less than 200 points and you can assign them a cheap protector if you say wish though it's not needed.

Brets are going to get a lot of nerfs (sorry for the term folks) but some buffs also (sorry again)

willowdark
28-05-2010, 00:00
I don't have the book in front of me, so can't add up the points, but at 25% lords we should be able to run a Bret lord _and_ a level 4. That could be a magic phase potential that brets just never get to see in 7th.

Ultimate Life Form
28-05-2010, 02:05
So you'll finally get smacked in the face for charging due to average Ini :shifty:

Psygon
28-05-2010, 02:37
I would venture a guess that special rules, army wide and specific, will be what allows Bretonnian to remain a cavalry based army book in an infantry based edition.

And still pull their own weight.

selone
28-05-2010, 11:23
So you'll finally get smacked in the face for charging due to average Ini :shifty:

It's 3 but with the stepping up rule Brets are going to face more return attacks anyways. Trust in your armour!

Awilla the Hun
28-05-2010, 13:39
Although I hope they let the infantry play a role, all the same. This will make me, if nothing else, give my archer units banners as well as Braziers. Hold an objective, and rain firey death-excellent! (Although I will have to find something else to screen with. Hopefully, the Men at Arms will be getting cheaper soon, so I can squeeze more in. It's good to have so many volunteers for the Revolution!)

Malorian
28-05-2010, 14:25
Yep... as much as I've been against them in the past, trebuchets will be as much as a given as two organ guns are to dwarfs. The true line of sight will also mean you don't even need a hill of them.

It's hard to say if bret magic will be worth it, we're going to have to wait and see how the lores change (and if the errata changes the army book much). As it stands now I dno't plan to take magic though.

Knowing you are going to take return attacks, do people plan to beef up their lances? Do you figure going to 12 will be a must? (6 for flanking)

Rolo Ramone
29-05-2010, 16:20
12 seems fine for lances, but If we do not want a stubborn enemy, 15 do not look bad either.

I was thinking in the possiblity for archers. According the rumors, if you put them in 15 men units, you get 15 ranged attacks? Thatīs pretty good for a cheap unit. You can give them a banner and they really shine!

Thinking about men-at-arms with haldbers: It may works...

Malorian
31-05-2010, 15:08
I was thinking in the possiblity for archers. According the rumors, if you put them in 15 men units, you get 15 ranged attacks? Thatīs pretty good for a cheap unit. You can give them a banner and they really shine!

Both the first and second rank fire, and then ranks behind get half, so those 15 archers would only get full shots if deployed in 2 ranks.

You could reform them last second to get ranks but then you would lose the stakes (taking lance/spear bonus away).

I'm thinking that a fully ranked unit of 20 would do fairly well.

Kuja
04-06-2010, 10:50
I think that the banner of the lady will be pure gold in eight edition!!!! (at least for a small unit of grial knights with the bsb or a lonely bsb on a horse or a pegasus ;) ) , while the banner of chalons will be very good too, and the banner of defence with a damsel or prophetess will be better against certain spells with strenght five or more.

Dilthar
04-06-2010, 19:04
It's hard to say if bret magic will be worth it, we're going to have to wait and see how the lores change (and if the errata changes the army book much). As it stands now I dno't plan to take magic though. (6 for flanking)

I dunno...looking at the current rumours for lore of life, I'm thinking magic will be the way to go with brets

having a lvl4 buff bot sitting in the middle of your big unit of knights sounds like a way to make them pretty unstoppable (no need to worry about stepping up and striking back when your knights are T7 :D)

Bitten Black Sheep
04-06-2010, 22:42
I'm really looking forward to taking my horses out of the stables for a run.
They have been stuck eating hay for about 18 months now so are chomping at the bit.
The Brets were getting left behind in the arms race with troops that refused to break and more and more fear tests having to be taken stopping your charge. In addition, opposing armies seemed to be becoming more mobile.
One thing I always enjoyed was facing an infantry army. You could largely dicatate the pace of the battle and choose your attacks. With 8th edition we will probably be facing more infantry.
Our banners will be great in this environment - Lady of the Lake, Chalon, and with more terrain the Twilight might be useful.
I think that Brets might be one of the few armies where an MSU approach will still work. 6 knights move straight past the enemy through a gap in their lines on the march. With a good toot on your bugle you can even do this if someone is a bit close to you. Nip past and blow your bugle again and turn round. You instantly have threatened the rear of the enemy whilst another unit of knights is threatening the front.
I cannot think of another army (maybe ogres but not as fast, cheap and wider frontage) who can threaten the rear so quickly and effectively for so few points. Our initiative is a bit on the low side but with good armour and ward saves losses should be minimal. You might want to add a 7th or 8th knight to absorb losses but then you are not as manoeuvreable anf IMO you are better going for more units of knights to threaten more areas at once.
I've often wondered on the worth of a paladin v 3 extra knights tending to come dow to 3 knights. Now though the higher initiative of the paladin might make a big difference to an attack, particularly from the rear, as he is likely to get two kills in first. You then only need 5 knights to go with him - could even be cheap errants if you are scrambling for points.

Archers will be pretty much the same I think - well worth the points and 5 points for a bit of fire to keep them warm is often useful.
The trebuchet will presumably get reduced in power like a stone thrower, (9) 3 normal saves,so might not be as effective as you might think.

Now, I wish I could think of some exciting tactics for my fast cav Worries of Chaos army!
All I can see is death.

_dandaman_
06-06-2010, 04:42
I think the real trouble for brets is your low model count + relatively low initiative. I know you can raise more, but against alot of armies, they get into trouble. Even my marauders of chaos get to strike first, and can cut down enough of your brets to win of hold out in combat.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-06-2010, 06:42
Maybe they will give mounted knight cav a speical rule like asf on the turn they charge?

Even with decent armor a -1 or -2 and striking before the buses do will make short work of a limted model count army. Espcially since in most cases you will be going after the enemy with a higher rate of movement, making blocks of archers with BS3 even worse, thus giving even less support to the knights that could use dwindling ranks in "super" units due to bow/treb fire :(.

I' am very interested in getting a 2nd warhammer army and love the theme of Brets, but some of their aspects don't feel up to par with current armies in new 8th ed. must have to do something with that 6th ed. book ;).

Ammedie
06-06-2010, 11:17
trebuchet 'works as normal stone throwers with the follwoing aceptions S5(10) and r12-60' so it dosn't realy matter what the stander strenght for stone throwers changes to because the brettonain book replaces the soon to be s3(9). unless there is an errata to change it. personaly i hope not. i like S5(10) with no partials, thats still -2 to saves which will ignore most saves and even make a chaos worrior walking with a 3+save cringe. best of all the % allowences mean we can take 2 in small games (as far as i currently understand it)

Ammedie
06-06-2010, 11:23
a units of 6 pegasus knights charge. and form up, will they form up in to the lance formation? keeping there forntage small to make room for other units (shame they cant get rank bonus)

Artinam
06-06-2010, 11:33
No they won't its in the FAQ.

Anyway, I predict that units like Men-at-Arms and the Grail Relique might become better. Its very easy to get a Stubborn Men-at-Arms block and then flank charge it with a small unit.

It does appear that the usual tactic of big Knight units need a revision.

Malorian
07-06-2010, 19:54
It does appear that the usual tactic of big Knight units need a revision.

Bah!

All it means is that we need to use bigger units of knights :D

Arkh
08-06-2010, 06:59
I've been running 100 men at arms in my Bretonnian army ever since Bretonnians were released so I am pumped to see them allowed more combat options.

After my first test game with Bretonnians here is what I discovered.

Optimal Men At Arms unit sizes:

40 10x4 with halberds (hammer)
25 5x5 with spears (anvil)

10 packs have completely lost their use with the ability for the enemy to reform after killing them all (i.e. can't redirect the enemy with them as well anymore)

I attempted 2 packs of 30, one pack of 50, and one pack of 25 in my test game. The problem that the 2 packs of 30 had was that tons of them would die before getting their first round of halberd swings in, so ranking up in the horde formation didn't help them at all. My unit of 50 was great, as they consistently had 24+ S4 attacks being returned toward my opponent, but I think 40 might be the perfect number for a damage dealing men at arms unit that is relatively cheap.

Archers?... Units of 30 for the win! 30 of these guys, ranked 10x3 provides 25 shots per turn along with a very good ability to defend themselves in close combat against most any fast cav or flying unit in the game. Braziers (which are a given in the next edition with the change to regeneration), Standard + musician for a 200 point unit that is incredibly effective.

Skirmishing archers potentially used in a unit of 10 for run and gun (since they can march and shoot now)

Grail Pilgrims? They suck now... I've never played a single game with my bretonnians that did not include a unit of these guys. Alas they are now benched, unless the errata saves them. Here are the problems... They don't get to parry since they already have a ward save. So they lost the hand weapon shield bonus outright. The 2 ranks of combat doesn't help them out as much as any other unit since their centerpiece takes up 2 slots from both the 2nd + 3rd ranks. Stubborn 8? Well... Even Men at Arms are going to frequently be stubborn and with the change to stubborn to allow them to use the general's leadership, their crap leadership doesn't matter at all. In the end... Their save decreased and they are facing more attacks (that are almost always hitting on 3s) than ever.

On the other hand... If parry ends up stacking with existing ward saves then these guys will be a phenomenal anvil unit.

We ran trebuchets as S4/S10 in my test game since stone throwers are going down to S3/S9 and they were still incredible. Two direct hits on the first turn paid for both of the Trebuchets I had on the field.

All in all... The game is A LOT faster now, combat is more enjoyable and is guaranteed to happen, infantry are a lot more enjoyable to use, because they are a threat on turn 2 instead of turn 3 and they dish out mounds of attacks. And there are no more games with those stupid standoffs that used to happen where people would guess what their opponent's charge range was and stay 1" out of it.

Malorian
08-06-2010, 15:53
For grail pilgrams I think you have to keep in mind that we might be seeing some BIG units in 8th, and your unit of 25 M@A might not be stubborn when they lose to larger unit.

At the same time the GPs will always be stubborn.

Arkh
08-06-2010, 17:19
For grail pilgrams I think you have to keep in mind that we might be seeing some BIG units in 8th, and your unit of 25 M@A might not be stubborn when they lose to larger unit.

At the same time the GPs will always be stubborn.

True... I guess I just have the personal preference of a unit of 50 MaA over 25 Pilgrims. To be fair, I've always run my pilgrims in a 6x3 unit and I didn't change that fact for my last game. Perhaps I will have to try running them 10x3 or 6x5. It does still bother me that their save decreased though.

Malorian
08-06-2010, 17:32
However... if they break in combat (lose the blessing) and then rally to fight again then at least they still have a ward save ;)

(You have to take the small wins where you can right?)


Personally I gave away my men at arms a while ago and have no intention to get more. I love knights and the only peasants I will allow in my army are those with a bow.

Even then I don't think I'm going to get more archers and will stay with the roughly 20 I have now.

No matter what I'm going to find a tactic that allows a knight heavy army to still function!


One thing I am looking forward to is the free reform after you win combat. That is the way I (incorrectly) played when I first started and it really helped setting up secondary charges.

With this in mind I think knight heavy armies will find themselves overloading a flank, crushing it, and then reforming to face the center.

papabearshane
08-06-2010, 17:46
Im thinking Brets wont change to much in 8th as we will still be a heavy cav army with good saves so step up wont hurt us as bad as some. Also Flank charging will still be a must to break most units. Ive always gone 2:1 when trying to hit anything tough with my lances. Im Eager to see some more blocks of Men-at-Arms though...........

Cordantheman
09-06-2010, 01:44
I agree I think Men at Arms support is going to be a lot more popular since it will force the enemy to expose his flank to more units and the free move after winning a combat may or may not mean we can switch in and out of lance in combat. (I could be wrong ><) I usually didn't field peasants without bows but I think I might finally get around to breaking out some large units of M@A. ^^

Mudkip
09-06-2010, 23:55
So what's the view on 5-wide vs 10-wide on M@A? Halberds at str4 with that extra rank of attacks is kinda appealing. Though I suspect 5 wide and 8-10 deep ranks with spears might be more efficient.

txamil
11-06-2010, 06:08
Don't Brets have dirt cheap Paladins and Damsels?

Artinam
11-06-2010, 11:27
Its ok, the cheapest Paladin comes out on 74/76 points(I forget). On a Horse with a lance and a shield. So I guess thats ok.

Harwammer
11-06-2010, 13:04
The Lance formation (cheap cav ranks), questing knights (decent strength and decent armour will make them good for standing combats) and trebuchets all look like they are going to be great for 8th to me.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 13:37
So are lances going to get an extra attack in 8th?

With lance formation we get the front rank and then all the attacks from the sides. In 8th the second rank gets to attack (but not the mount).

So I'm assuming that we will keep our lance formation rules and then the person in the second rank will get a lance attack too (will suck when it's a damsel though).


It's nothing huge... but it's something ;)

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 13:38
Been doing a bit of thinking and my initial thoughts for Questing Knights have changed considerably. I think I will be using units of 6 as flanking units, either for combined assault or stand-alone as they have several high-strength attacks and, more importnatly can remain in combat without loss of effectiveness. I think Knights Errant will remain my hammer units and Grail Knights will be a mixture of one or the other.

Other thing to note. The Fay Enchantress suddenly looks very tempting. +6 to cast Lore of Life which is now a good lore that can revive dead knights? Yes please.

Finally I think it is important for hammer units to have as many ranks as possible (hence the Errant) to negate the whole Stubborn thing. The main advantage in the Lance formation now is that we CAN still ffectively do this with Knights unlike other armies. If multiple units add their respective ranks together this becomes much easier to do as well.

- PurchasedPig -

Malorian
11-06-2010, 15:43
I disagree with the idea of using questing knights as flankers.

To me eighth for brets will work like this:

-Charge
-If they break then run them down
-If they don't break then flank them on your next turn

Now if you hit them with KE first and then questing knights second that will mean a big first strike, and then hope they hold , and then the questing knights add some punch.

If on the other hand you have questing knights hitting the front then you hit hard, still hit hard on their turn, and when the knights errant hit the flank you will cause so many kills that you will certainly break them as they shouldn't have many models to give many ranks.

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 16:16
I disagree with the idea of using questing knights as flankers.

To me eighth for brets will work like this:

-Charge
-If they break then run them down
-If they don't break then flank them on your next turn

Now if you hit them with KE first and then questing knights second that will mean a big first strike, and then hope they hold , and then the questing knights add some punch.

If on the other hand you have questing knights hitting the front then you hit hard, still hit hard on their turn, and when the knights errant hit the flank you will cause so many kills that you will certainly break them as they shouldn't have many models to give many ranks.

I was originally thinking the same thing but, as has always been the case, Brets really should be going for the all out win in one turn, not setting up long protracted combats.

I think that Questing Knights are good to send into the flank of an unengaged enemy as it is unlikely they will die and get chased off and can stay at full effectiveness despite the length of the time that they stay engaged. Others are NOT good for this. I think that Errant are good for fronal assaults more because of ranks than any particular offensive prowess, especially with the Errantry Banner.

My main reasons for NOT putting Questing Knights into a hammer is because of the new rules for Stubborn with more ranks. It severely limits the effectiveness of cavalry in every army (ours less so though). We NEED the ranks to be able to reliably break enemies that are charged and fully ranked up units of Questing Knights are expensive. The same goes for Grail Knights, just too expensive. As a result I am taking more units of smaller size,m cheaper and can still lend their attacks to an existing or new combat spilling the results in your favour WITHOUT the enemy having stubborn.

In my opinion (at least I will do this in my armies) big blocks (12-15 strong) of Errant are compulsory for this reason alone. On top of this at least two big blocks (35-50 man strong) of Peasants will become incredibly useful for massive ranks combined with the Knight charge. This all comes together with a few (around 4/5) units of KotR, Questing and Grail Knights for the all-important flank attacks where there increased combat potential will be necessary. These units should be 6/7 stong to negate ranks and take full advantage of the Lance formation in the current rules (7 can potentially ALL fight and lose 2 models before they stop negating ranks).

Although using Questing Knights as the hammer will work I simply don't think it will ever be cost-effective enough with the new Stubborn rule in effect as there is an equal chance of your opponent getting the flank (more with the massive flanks of the lance) in subsequent turns as yourself and cutting a huge swathe of your points in one go.

Note: I would ALWAYS attend the Errant with at least one, probably two Paladins each for the extra impact.

Sorry for the long-winded description, even if you don't agree hopefully it managed to make some neurons fire!

- PurcahsedPig -

Malorian
11-06-2010, 16:55
Even in 7th where their great weapons weren't as good I still used questing knights and would send them straight towards the unit I didn't expect to break (stubborn or whatever) for the simlpe reason that they are our only unit that packs a real punch after the charge (you can add grail and pegasus knights in there two but they cost a whole lot more).

Charge in, hit hard, win, and then increase frontage to get more attacks and just hack away.

The same goes for 8th except now if your unit is big enough you could still be getting 11 str 6 attacks in following rounds (5+1 for champ in front rank + 5 in back rank) plus some horse kicks for fun.

Their kills will make up for the loss of ranks, and even though they won't likely break the stubborn unit they can keep doing a lot of damage to it until another until can support.

And lets admit it, given the new dangers of war machines in 8th you will need to get locked in as soon as possible so you won't have time for that flanking unit of knights to get into the perfect flanking position. That will have to happen on the following turn or even later.


So yes big blocks of KE/KotR will be a must, but I think hammers of questing knights will be well worth their points, and in fact I would now think they would be best in units of 10+ and even multiple units of them.

Like it or not, we are going to see units with an insane number of ranks and we will simply not be able to take a knight unit big enough to counter.

Artinam
14-06-2010, 23:11
I agree with Malorian on this one, two ranks of Questing Knight chopping up enemy units sounds great.

Ramius4
15-06-2010, 06:49
I agree with Malorian on this one, two ranks of Questing Knight chopping up enemy units sounds great.

Yup, especially if the rumor about being able to reform if you win combat is true. Imagine 12 Questing knights charging in, winning combat, but not breaking the enemy, and then 'flattening out' into 2 ranks of 6 (or whatever is left). You'll lose a little rank bonus, but you'll maintain an entire unit's worth of Strength 6 Attacks.

Then if you've won combat again, you (supposedly) could reform back into your lance formation, ready to charge again.

Between the 'Scroll of Reaction' (One use only. When an enemy wizard successfully casts a spell, the player can read this scroll instead of making a normal dispel attempt. The spell will be cast successfully. But after resolving the spells effects, the player will roll one dice for every power dice used in casting the spell. For every roll of 5+ the wizard will lose a wound, with no armor saves allowed.) and the Silver Mirror, my Damsels are going to be looking for some turn 1 or 2 kills on enemy wizards I think that 'Scroll of Reaction' is going to be a very, very popular choice for those facing magic heavy armies.

With the loss of control chart the way it is, there's a far greater chance of wizards actually taking a wound than the current miscast chart. There's no result on the loss of control where you don't at least take a Strength 5 hit. Silver Mirror (to finish them off) for the win:evilgrin:

In November I'll be using Bretonnians in a tournament and I plan on two level 2 Damsels, carrying those two items. I may not even cast spells until either one of their wizards is dead, or my items are both used and I've failed to kill one, just to prevent the same from happening to me.

Men At Arms will definitely change the way Bretonnian armies can be played. Depending upon what you're facing, big blocks of them may allow you to tarpit the enemy, giving the knights time to position for the charge. They're not that expensive either, at 150 points for 30 of them.

Bowmen will see a lot more use from me as well. Just being able to deploy 10 models as a 5-wide unit and get all your shots is huge.

Mudkip
15-06-2010, 08:49
I've been doing the math and there's not much difference in damage output between Questing and Grail knights in the 2nd round of combat. The Questing Knights do slightly more damage than Grail Knights in general, but this is offset by the fact that more of them are likely to die before they get to attack. Of course GK are much more expensive so you get what you pay for, but they have a similar level of capability to QK in protracted combats. The QK have gotten relatively better though, in addition to +1 str in 8th edition they also get 100% extra attacks from a second rank, compared to only 50% extra attacks from the GK's since they have 2 attacks base, which has helped close the gap somewhat. So Questing Knights have gone from being clearly bad compared to GK in multiple rounds of combat, to being nearly as good for less points which is fair enough.

I've decided to pay extra and go with Grail Knights personally, partly because I feel that I need a response to ethereal units and GK have magical attacks.

PurchasedPig
15-06-2010, 10:18
Sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear on the whole Questing Knights thing. I DO think that they are a very good uit now, infintely better in many ways to current edition and they will be a staple of my army. I am currently debating whether or not they will be used as a 12 man unit or 2 units of 6 though. I do agree that in extended combats Questing Knights shine but a full unit of 12 costs a lot of points and, despite being a lot more killy than Errant in remaining rounds are only marginally better on the charge at killing and a LOT more vulnerable these days. They have one less armour save and fight auto-last allowing for the tough units (which they will inevitably end up being homed at) to potentially kill quite a few before comat. These drawbacks do not apply for the cheaper Errant with their 2+ save and (admittedly palty) I3.

I will be experimenting with both but I think that the best use for Questing Knights is either for flanking or taking down the big gribblies and they can do these just as effectively in units of 6/7 as units of 12.

-PurchasedPig-

Malorian
15-06-2010, 15:23
I am currently debating whether or not they will be used as a 12 man unit or 2 units of 6 though....
but a full unit of 12 costs a lot of points...

Doesn't matter if you take two units of 6 or one unit of 12, they cost the same amount of points ;)

(Command excluded.)

Harwammer
15-06-2010, 19:30
Doesn't matter if you take two units of 6 or one unit of 12, they cost the same amount of points ;)

(Command excluded.)

There are so many bonuses to large units and the way vps are earned from units in 8th ed means that a large unit may be better for the grind than two small one. Especially as the stepping up rule mitigates always strike last (does cav get to do this?).

Considering they strike last but are tough and strike hard maybe questing knights could be used as an anvil in a pinch?

Malorian
15-06-2010, 19:58
Here's another thing I was thinking about: mounted yeomen.

Being that the charge ranges will be random and we will be screwed if we get charged, I'm wondering if 1-2 units of mounted yeomen will be a must so that they can run ahead, get charged, and then allow your knights the counter charge.

Or do people plan to put their faith in the dice?

willowdark
15-06-2010, 20:04
At M8, I'd be surprised if you couldn't get close enough to ensure the dice aren't really a factor. Rolling three ones is so unlikely that I'd say it's pure providence if you roll it. Otherwise, rolling a 5 or a 6 combined with base M8 should always be enough to get that charge off, especially if your using anvils more in 8th than you do in 7th.

Dilthar
15-06-2010, 23:21
was just reading grims updated sticky, and the part about merged monster/rider profiles caught my eye...do you guys think this will be an improvement for our paladins on a pegasus? I'm wondering if the gain in one wound for our rider will offset the fact that all hits will strike him...at least now that extra wound benefits from his armour/ward save :D

so whaddya guys think?

Ramius4
16-06-2010, 06:04
was just reading grims updated sticky, and the part about merged monster/rider profiles caught my eye...do you guys think this will be an improvement for our paladins on a pegasus? I'm wondering if the gain in one wound for our rider will offset the fact that all hits will strike him...at least now that extra wound benefits from his armour/ward save :D

so whaddya guys think?

It's tough to say without the complete rules for it. There's a lot more you're not considering. Such as, what happens to the mount's Attacks? If they still have their own, separate attacks, then yeah I'd say it's better overall. It's unlikely in the extreme that attacks would merge, so I think it's safe to assume they'll have their own.

The merged Wounds/Toughness part of it is a mixed bag. Overall, it will benefit the model as a whole with armor saves and ward saves.

No more easy combat res by targetting the generally weaker mounts either.

No more being shot at and suddenly finding yourself on foot without a mount.

Those were always the two biggest drawbacks to me of using such mounts. Now if only our Lords and Paladins on a Pegasus were allowed to join a unit of Pegasus Knights I'd be thrilled.

Artinam
16-06-2010, 08:16
But Malorian, these Yeomen are Peasants, Herecy in an all Knight army ;)

Actually I am using them now the way you more or less describe they work wonders. Either they get shot (shielding the Knights) or manage to draw the charges.

Ramius4
17-06-2010, 12:49
This will probably be a fairly common Lord build for me. Not too different from what I've used since 6th, with the added Potion of Strength for combats that go past the first turn.

Total 254
Lord 110
Barded Horse 21
Grail Vow 28
Enchanted Shield 5 (the new point value in the BRB)
Virtue of Purity 20
Morning Star of Fracasse 25
Pond Stone - [25 pts] Bearer may re-roll failed armor saves
Potion of Strength - [20 pts] One use only. The bearer may drink the potion at the beginning of any turn and gains +D3 Strength until the end of the turn.

I've always been a fan of using my Bret lord to simply nullify enemy characters. With a re-rollable armor save and 5+ ward he can generally survive the first round. The Morning Star ensures that any scary magic weapons go away. After that happens, even tougher characters like Chaos Lords or Vampires can't really hurt you without some luck. You don't really kill them either, but I'd rather have them uselessly attacking my Lord in a challenge than killing the unit he's in.

Stonewyrm
17-06-2010, 21:54
A couple of things i've noticed:

Pond Stone and Enchanted Sheild are the same as the Gromil Great Helm, something I always take. Now I can take it twice (sort of). With the "Dragon Helm" and the "Helm der Zweitracht" I can even get 4 Lords/Paladins to 1+ AS (the new maximum). Two of them will have AS re-rolls :)

I will still be hesitant to use Mounted Yeomen, I have been using 5 or 6 Errants as throwaway units and they work much better due to the 2+ AS and Ward save (until they flee the first time). By the time Yeomen move forward, bait, flee, reform and shoot they have been shot to crap anyway.

Never, ever, ever put faith in dice!!

I don't think pure MSU will work anymore, not even for Brets. I suspect it will end up 50% bigblock and 50% smallunit. Either 50% units (so a lot more points in bigblocks) or 50% points excluding chars. There is no way to know what will work because we will be forced to react to what the other Armies take. Unfortunatly I think we will be unable to dictate list composition. Our "old" Army book and the addition of a lot more stubborn units will force us to tailor our lists to the meta-game if we want to win. I would rather lose than leave my Pegs at home though.

Hello 2nd Trebuchet. Hello going from 20+ to 40-50+ Bowmen.

I can chuck my custom made 6er Lance movement trays in the garbage. Or something about "a writer", "a movement tray" and "where the sun don't shine".

I think the stat merge will help my Paladin on Peg. He WILL be one of my 2 chars that get the 1+ re-roll AS (2+ AS for him because of lack of barding).

Rant End

nick_robinsonchia
18-06-2010, 20:59
Was reading through the new things and I can't help but feel that a lvl one damsel on steed with the basic spell of beasts is a near mandatory 'unit upgrade'.

For only 80 points u get;

1. Fill a slot (saving u 20+ points)
2. Grant MR1 which is better on brets than nearly anything other than demons (15points worth)
3. Have a chance of casting on their knight unit +1 S and T at +2 to cast(don't know what the basic level is but am guessing it is a 5+) so doing on one dice gives u a good shot at landing it (3+ if I'm right at the 5+ value) making Grail/realm/errant units much better grinders.
4. Potential for generating precious dispel and power dice.
5. Acces to arcan items (DS, chalice, toad scroll etc.)

at 80 points why wouldn't u take them????

N

TheSanityAssassin
23-06-2010, 07:10
What about the idea of a cheap paladin with Wyrmlance added in to one of your killy blocks. The ability to drop the 4d6 hits from the breath weapon in combat, coupled with a bucketload of attacks from the Knights/Lord in the unit, it should give you more than enough to win combat by a stupid amount and likely get rid of enough ranks to cancel Steadfast. I know I'm going to try it for sure!

Mudkip
23-06-2010, 07:22
The Wyrmlance can't be used in combat, sadly. It says so in the magic item description.

Harwammer
23-06-2010, 08:19
Enchanted Shield 5 (the new point value in the BRB)

I'm sorry but prices in the army book magic lists take precedent over those in the rule book.

I suppose it is a balancing mechanic as some items are worth more to some armies than others...

Tenken
26-06-2010, 07:52
What do people think about hippogryphs in the new edition? I'm thinking about starting a bret army and a lord on a hippogryph is just a cool image to me. I'm worried though that with no AS it'd be kind of a liability, even with it's t5. I'm thinking it might be better to just keep him on a horse in a unit, he'll pry do more good that way anyhow.

Also does anyone know definitively if having a character with MR gives it to a unit? With the new MR rules it seems like they might not, but if they do then damsels are indeed well worth taking for many knight units, just for that.

Karlon
30-06-2010, 01:17
I'm sorry but prices in the army book magic lists take precedent over those in the rule book.

I suppose it is a balancing mechanic as some items are worth more to some armies than others...

This works in our favour with the new Warbanner price increase. I guess that it has nothing to do with book to book balancing and everything to do with clarity. Its to stop confusion as to how much an item costs.

High Elves get their common magic items cheaper, but I predict that everyone else will eventually have their common magic item list disappear completely as books are redone.

Balerion
01-07-2010, 09:11
Here's a tidbit that I'm not sure most Bretonnian players have discovered yet: your Pegasus Knights are treated as Fast Cavalry, and therefore get the Vanguard deployment SR (free 12" pre-game move).

Sedge
01-07-2010, 11:20
I have noticed a few players saying that Brets are going to be a bottom teir army. What do you guys think? From what I have read I don't think the new changes will be all that bad for the armies of bretonnia.

Paull
01-07-2010, 16:11
I have noticed a few players saying that Brets are going to be a bottom teir army. What do you guys think? From what I have read I don't think the new changes will be all that bad for the armies of bretonnia.

i'm not quite sure yet. Our KOTR and Errants are taking a hit. prolonged combats are looking more likely and being able to break units on the charge will only happen with very large lance units.
Battle Pilgrims are now next to uselss. merely overcosted peasants.
Pegasus Knights lose 360 vision but gain a free 12" move.

On the other hand, almost all our peasants have gotten better.
M@Arms are cheap enough for us to deploy in horde units and use as an Anvil
Peasant Bowmen can now rank up and benefit from volley
The trebuchet is even more deadly
Damsels have gone up in power and can now be used offensively.
Questing knights are now Str +2 with GW's

whilst i don't think we'll be setting the world alight in this new edition, i don't think we will suffer too badly if we switch the way we build our lists. Gone are the massive cavalry only lists. Our noble army will now rely on the downtrodden peasants to hold the line whilst our cavalry smash into the flanks