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Desert Rain
28-05-2010, 09:56
Now that we basically have confirmed rumours for most of the new rulebook and test games are being held in the GW stores I think that it's time to start a new tactica thread for the High Elves.

As we all know 8th edition brings a lot of changes, and some of them benefit us, some of them don't.

Here are some of my thoughts about the new rules and how they might effect our units.

First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit. They will also be able to fire in several ranks, thus negating one of their biggest downsides in 7th edition.
With the new requirement for a minimum 25% in core units they also help us out since they are more expensive than the Spearmen and the Archers.

If you want to go for the benefits of the horde rule Spearmen might be the better choice since they are our cheapest troops. It still remains to be seen if it is worth it though. Archers get a boos with the shoot in 2 ranks rumour since you can field units of 10 without them taking up a lot of space, thus giving you a tighter deployment which is good.

Of our elite infantry units it seems that Phoenix Guards are getting the biggest boost. We have, as you all know, ASF on all our units and it seems that if you have both ASF and higher initiative you will get to re-roll to hit rolls. Since Phoenix Guards have I6 they will almost always get those re-rolls. They also get to double their number of attacks thanks to the fighting in 2 ranks rumour, thus making them much better at killing stuff than they are now.
Their 4+ ward save also makes them less vulnerable to the high amount of return attacks that will come their way.

Both Swordmasters and White Lions will get a significant boost as well, Swordmasters will be able to put out an insane amount of attacks. Unfortunately this comes with a big downside, since the opponent almost always gets to strike back at us, and our fragile but expensive Swordmasters and White Lions doesn't like that very much.

Since it seems that you need to have a rank in your unit to cancel out the opponents ranks if you hit them in the flank our cavalry units gets a lot more expensive if we want to do that. This might lead to some people starting to use Silver Helms in this role since they are cheaper to buy ranks to.

Chariots, and especially the Lion Chariot seems pretty tempting in the new edition as well. With S7 auto kills gone you can play them a bit more boldly if the enemy has access to such high strength weaponry in his army. The impact hits, and possible "crush them" attacks will help us deal with large enemy blocks quickly which I believe that we need to do in order to not get bogged down in long wars of attrition which we will be hard pressed to win.

Shadow Warriors and Reavers doesn't seem that tempting to me, with skirmishers being nerfed out Shadow Warriors seems even poorer than they are today. Reavers seems to get a free 12" move at the start of the game so perhaps they can be useful. The viability of these 2 units are something I'm uncertain of at the moment.

Great Eagles and Repeater Bolt Throwers are as good as they've ever been. A slight nerf in the Eagles ability to march block doesn't make them any less worthwhile to take.

This is all for now, I'll write my thoughts about characters and magic later.

LKHERO
28-05-2010, 10:00
None of this change the fact that to make a significant impact, you need a substantial investment in the number of models you have per unit.

Elves simply don't have the bodies (aka PPM) to support such large scale affairs. If I don't see a points reduction for our units, I don't see large units of Seaguard and Spears working out too well. Especially if Stone Throwers and the like no longer need guess ranges and partial hits are gone.

Desert Rain
28-05-2010, 11:42
You're absolutely right about that, and that is in my opinion our biggest problem with the new edition. Unless we put up to 1/3 of our army in one unit we can't get the major boosts. I don't think that we'll get any significant army changes until we get a new book, so until then we just have to try to minimize that disadvantage. For Sea Guards I'm currently thinking about 2 units of 21 with full command as my core, but that's only if I like the Sea Guards in the starter set. Otherwise I'll go with spears and archers instead.

CaptainFaramir
28-05-2010, 13:51
Against any "horde" unit, 14 Swordmasters will kill 13.5 of the little bastards. If they have spears and still have 30 models left they'll kill 5 of us. 9 Swordmasters will kill 10 of them. They won't have 30 models left. And we'll put a chariot in their face.

Stop worrying.

Chariots are no longer auto-pop. And fear is +1CR (and possibly WS1). Tasty.

Our Archmages can get up to +6 (yes, plus SIX) to dispel. And choose their lores.

Stop worrying.

Our eagles can now charge 28" into those annoying warmachines.

Our Pheonix Guard are now buffed and can get up to 2+ Ward versus magic.

Stop worrying.

High Elves are not a horde army, or a monster army, or even a skirimisher army. Nothing changes for us, excpet marginally more core (and lets be fair, our core just got a major boost, including cheap new models in the starter set).

LKHERO
28-05-2010, 17:47
I'm not believing a single thing till I have the book in my hands, or until stores get the rulebook. Everything you said above are general changes that applies practically every army with EQ unit stats. Doesn't change the fact that we pay 9 point spears, 13 point LSG and 15 point elite infantry.

This 8th Ed. is all about making armies bigger and a heavier emphasis on core. We can afford neither.

I'm looking at games at 2K points in 8th instead of 2250. Easier to figure out points with percentages for everyone.

Prince Sairion
28-05-2010, 21:23
All speculation ofcourse at the moment, BUT!

Rare 25%, I swear I read a rule that stated HE don't abide by the 'max 3 same special/max2 same rare' as they are an 'elite' army, could be wrong but I swear I saw this, opens you up to take (at 3k, which MAY become the norm) 7 bolt throwers . . . I'm not suggesting you should, but you could.

Re chariots, I may be reading these rumours incorrectly, but I see them getting worse. 9inch basic move allows them a charge of 9+the highest two of three dice, more importantly, not a guaranteed charge. Secondly, if the unit has more ranks than you (?) they are stubborn, so your chariots are stuck in a protracted fight. Again, I could be wrong with this.

What I do know is that in my 12k high elf army in 7th ed I only have enough core to make 25% in a 6k game, I'm not painting another 100 spearmen!

Von Wibble
28-05-2010, 21:36
Here are some of my thoughts about the new rules and how they might effect our units.

First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit. They will also be able to fire in several ranks, thus negating one of their biggest downsides in 7th edition.
With the new requirement for a minimum 25% in core units they also help us out since they are more expensive than the Spearmen and the Archers.

If you want to go for the benefits of the horde rule Spearmen might be the better choice since they are our cheapest troops. It still remains to be seen if it is worth it though. Archers get a boos with the shoot in 2 ranks rumour since you can field units of 10 without them taking up a lot of space, thus giving you a tighter deployment which is good.

I think Horde rule is not for us as I'd prefer more ranks so I have stubborn troops. Whilst stepping up hurts more than it helps, high elf spearmen can hold their own against any equivalent priced troops.

Of our elite infantry units it seems that Phoenix Guards are getting the biggest boost. We have, as you all know, ASF on all our units and it seems that if you have both ASF and higher initiative you will get to re-roll to hit rolls. Since Phoenix Guards have I6 they will almost always get those re-rolls. They also get to double their number of attacks thanks to the fighting in 2 ranks rumour, thus making them much better at killing stuff than they are now.Their 4+ ward save also makes them less vulnerable to the high amount of return attacks that will come their way.

Completely agree. You forgot that fear is now better for Phoenix guard since the fact they don't outnumber the enemy matters not (I think) - being 5s to be hit sometimes is nice protection too!

Both Swordmasters and White Lions will get a significant boost as well, Swordmasters will be able to put out an insane amount of attacks. Unfortunately this comes with a big downside, since the opponent almost always gets to strike back at us, and our fragile but expensive Swordmasters and White Lions doesn't like that very much.

Swordmasters only get +1 attack per extra rank. I think these guys are still best in small units, acting more as elven detachments. White lions meanwhile have the smae role they always did - to stare down cavalry. They can safely do this in units of 14 now, and are the best choice bar none to guard a flank.

Since it seems that you need to have a rank in your unit to cancel out the opponents ranks if you hit them in the flank our cavalry units gets a lot more expensive if we want to do that. This might lead to some people starting to use Silver Helms in this role since they are cheaper to buy ranks to.

With the reroll to hit our cavalry got a major boost. 12 man units of silver helms are a distinct possibility, as are 6 man dragon princes (no point having a 2nd ranks with only +1 attack per model).

Chariots, and especially the Lion Chariot seems pretty tempting in the new edition as well. With S7 auto kills gone you can play them a bit more boldly if the enemy has access to such high strength weaponry in his army. The impact hits, and possible "crush them" attacks will help us deal with large enemy blocks quickly which I believe that we need to do in order to not get bogged down in long wars of attrition which we will be hard pressed to win.

Also the % change means that tiranoc chariots don't take up a valuable slot. I think my army will definatly have 3 of these, as they have a small footprint, low cost, and can easily support charges frmo cavalry or infantry

Shadow Warriors and Reavers doesn't seem that tempting to me, with skirmishers being nerfed out Shadow Warriors seems even poorer than they are today. Reavers seems to get a free 12" move at the start of the game so perhaps they can be useful. The viability of these 2 units are something I'm uncertain of at the moment.

Agreed. The eagle looks better as a war machine hunter and silver helms are better at threatening flanks. But until we see scenario rules I'll reserve full judgement

Great Eagles and Repeater Bolt Throwers are as good as they've ever been. A slight nerf in the Eagles ability to march block doesn't make them any less worthwhile to take.

Repeater bolt throwers were the worst war machine apart from the mortar. Now they're the worst war machine period. The only argument for taking one over an archer unit (which at least filled out core)was the smaller footprint, and now fire in ranks removes that from consideration. I just can't see what they can do that something else in the army can't do better - their average of 2 wounds per turn (assuming T3 enemies with little armour) compared to, say, a cannon killing a chariot or equivalent most turns (at least, mine do) is atrocious. Slap them down to 65 or make the multiple shots penetrate ranks and ignore armour. Until then, its too weak.

Eagles lose marchblocking but gain crush them, which will make a difference in taking on war machines. Their charge range also increased on average.

This is all for now, I'll write my thoughts about characters and magic later.

I don't buy that 8th edition makes armies bigger. Units maybe, but not armies.

As to emphasis on core, I can't think of many armies I field that don't have 25%. At 2500 points, I have to take 2 core - spearmen my preference. 2 units with full command cost me 500 points give or take (one has a magic banner). So all I need for my 25% is to throw in an archer unit or upgrade to sea guard.

And my other armies require no changes to meet the 25% core.

Desert Rain
29-05-2010, 22:39
This whole thread is just speculation until July 10. However, most things in the rumours are pretty much certain. We don't know which ones but in general I believe that we have a pretty good picture of what 8th edition is going to be like. It is a theoretical picture, yes but it is possible to make educated guesses from the rumours that we have and discuss their impact on our army based on them.

So in order to get some discussion, based on the rumours, what do you think that you will take for your characters?
Since we have 25% on Lords and 25% on Heroes there are plenty of options.
Do you take a L.4 and some fighty characters or a couple of L.2s and some fighters?
Perhaps the best solution for us, since our troops are so expensive, is to take a minimalist approach to characters and spend the rest of our points on troops. Perhaps a BSB and a L.3 or L.4 mage will be enough in games of about 2000 points, thus giving us plenty of much needed points to spend on our units.

LKHERO
30-05-2010, 08:50
What are the exact percentages again?

Is it 25% for both Lord and Hero choices or do you get 50% total for 25% in each? I'm a little confused. I'm also a little confused on all the threads and posts saying that High Elves ignore the percentages rule.

Deetwo
30-05-2010, 09:15
It's 25% each.. Apparently HE doesn't ignore the percentages (which would be rather silly), but instead the spam restrictions.
So where all other armies are bound by max 3 same special and max 2 same rare, HE are not.

I'm thinking 10 eagles...
Because eagles are cool. :D

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 11:49
So in order to get some discussion, based on the rumours, what do you think that you will take for your characters?
Since we have 25% on Lords and 25% on Heroes there are plenty of options.
Do you take a L.4 and some fighty characters or a couple of L.2s and some fighters?
Perhaps the best solution for us, since our troops are so expensive, is to take a minimalist approach to characters and spend the rest of our points on troops. Perhaps a BSB and a L.3 or L.4 mage will be enough in games of about 2000 points, thus giving us plenty of much needed points to spend on our units.

I agree. I think the aim should be to focus on making the characters survive and work on doing what they can to augment the army. Though you are asking if we should take wizards and fighty characters or a wizard and some fighty characters - I think either could work ;)

Seriously, L4 plus BSB plus possible commander, or prince plus 2 level 2s plus possible BSB is how I'd probably go. Or radiant gem prince plus 1 level 2 plus bsb to save even more points.

If special characters are your thing I could see Eltharion, with a level 2 and commander being good at 2500.

I think the prince gains a real boost with rerolling to hits. With KB now working vs ogre sized models, white sword, armour of caledor, talisman of saphery could be a nice combo.

I also think the annulian crystal got better. With most armies getting on average +3 or so dice to you in their magic phase, this turns it to a +1, and the high elf bonus to dispel on top makes it fairly comfortable to control enemy magic.

Desert Rain
30-05-2010, 13:35
Though you are asking if we should take wizards and fighty characters or a wizard and some fighty characters - I think either could work ;)
Lol, I didn't realise that ;)

More specifically, when it comes to magic do you think that we will benefit the most from a single L.4 or a couple of L.2s?

The single one has a bit more casting power, but he is very vulnerable to the new miscast system, and if we loose him we lose the magic phase. If you take 2 L.2s you lose some power, but in return you can have 2 lores instead of one, 2 arcane items instead of 1 and if one of them blows up you can still keep casting with the other one.

SeaSwift
30-05-2010, 13:45
2 Level 2s, you get to share more power dice if I read the rules correctly. It also lacks the 'eggs in basket' problem.

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 16:11
Well, there are a lot of variables in comparing a level 4 with 2 level 2s so here we go...

Advantages of level 4

- Extra +2 to cast
- Extra +2 to dispel (imo these two are huge)
- Easier to protect (after all, there is only 1 Folariath's Robe...)
- More flexibility in what hero options are available
- 10 points cheaper (woot!)

Advantages of 2 level 2s

- Access to 2 Arcane Items (very important imo)
- Can have 2 lores, or repeat a base spell twice
- A miscast won't hurt quite so badly
- Failing a spell on a natural roll of 1 or 2 only prevents 1 of them from any more casting
- 2 targets for the enemy to neutralise
- Average 1 extra power dice per game (from channelling)
- More points to spend on princes

I really think it comes down to player preference. At the moment I could completely understand reasons for either. What I really like about the new magic system is that it appears a mage council is not a viable option for an army. Well done to GW for that call.

Deetwo
30-05-2010, 16:20
Or you could even go with 2 level 3s.
Sure, you'll only get one cheap item for each, but I'm not entirely sure any more than that is even necessary.
Ofcourse, this would be more expensive than a single 4 or two 2s... But I'm thinking this might be a pretty interesting option regardless.

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 16:29
Well, 2 L3s compared to 2 L2s get +1 to cast and dispel and an extra spell each, but I think the cost increase doesn't justify it myself. I'd rather just upgrade one of the level 2s to a level 4.

Whilst compared to a level 4 its more spells and less eggs in one basket, but more expensive and worse at casting and dispelling.

I certainly would not advise this but each to his own.

King_Pash
30-05-2010, 23:41
How viable, do you suspect, a completely no-magic HE army would be? I've recently played a few no-magic games with 7th ed rules and I quite enjoyed having the extra hitting power and not having to worry and plan for magic.

Will this be viable in 8th ed more so than now?

Desert Rain
31-05-2010, 09:06
How viable, do you suspect, a completely no-magic HE army would be? I've recently played a few no-magic games with 7th ed rules and I quite enjoyed having the extra hitting power and not having to worry and plan for magic.

Will this be viable in 8th ed more so than now?
The main problem with no magic at all is that you have all those power dice each turn that you can't use at all. Even a single L.1 with a silver wand would make a basic magic phase sine he is cheap, for a HE, and you can use all the dice that you get.
Since you get more DD in 8th I'd say that no magic is more viable than in 7th. You'd want to make use of banner of the world dragon and our various MR items though.

GenerationTerrorist
31-05-2010, 22:22
I'm intrigued to what people think regarding the supposed striking in Initiative order rumour. This could limit the current prowess of the Star Dragon build. No bad thing, IMHO, but a bit of a worrisome thought for those of us who like to use him as a full-on regiment-breaking piece of nastiness.

Red_Lep
01-06-2010, 20:22
First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit.


This caught my attention as I am putting together enough LSG to do this, but how would it do? I toyed around with some ideas and came up with this:


NOTE: I'm going to use two thirty man units in regular play, this would just be for fun(if the rumors are true, that is)


BSB- 184
~Banner of the World Dragon
~Great Weapon
~Dragon Armor
**Protects from magic, a second banner, and adds some killing power

Noble- 144
~Amulet of Light
~Sacred Incense
~Great Weapon
~Dragon Armor
**Makes all attacks magical, -1 to hit so gives some protection from shooting, add some killing power

Lothern Sea Guard(58)- 784
~Banner of Ellyrion
~Standard Bearer
~Musician
~Shields
**The opponent would have to kill 10 before it lost any attacks. Salvo fire in four ranks so 38 shot(Nobles don't have bows), and attacks with 48 ASF magical attacks.


Any thoughts on how to make this either more outlandish or effective?

RobPro
02-06-2010, 01:07
Do the 8th ed changes affect our ability to bring a Prince on a Star Dragon in a 2250? I haven't read many of the rumors, I figure I'll just pickup the book when it comes out.

Falkman
02-06-2010, 01:31
Yes it does. You will only be able to take 25% of your army total as Lord choices, which means you'll be able to spend a total of 562 points on Lords in a 2250 pts game.
A naked Prince on Star dragon is 520 pts, so you'll only have 42 points to kit him with after that, which is a pretty big hit.

Depending on if miscasts still exist or not, I think a cheap lvl 4 Archmage with Staff of Solidity and Folariath's robe might be the way to go, supported by a couple of great weapon-toting Nobles and a BSB. Maybe even add Korhil on a chariot or something, he oughta be pretty damn hardhitting in one of those.
A level 2 Mage with Seerstaff of Saphery might also be nice, to compliment your Archmage's spell choices.

I've always thought High Elves were a pretty dull army, but with 8th ed they might actually become really interesting, might be time to dig out the army I got from a friend a couple of years ago.

Red_Lep
02-06-2010, 01:35
Honestly, you might be better off taking the Moon Dragon at that level. You'll get your full allowance of magic items and still have a fairly powerful mount.

Tyrion1
02-06-2010, 03:10
So i've read up on the new rules and with that said, what do you guys think of Prince Tyrion?

I plan on using him with his sword of breath fire (once per game of course) and he gets a stomp attack as well w/ 1 d6, along with his 4 re-rollable (due to asf and I10) str 7 attacks plus he can be used in 2k games. This guy just got suped up to the max (barring the fact that he can no longer use his 4+ ward and regen, but meh, he's still awesome.

Red_Lep
02-06-2010, 03:15
I know some people like to run small units of Swordmasters, but will these still be effective in the new edition? Stepping-up(think thats what its called) means there will be attacks back and with a 5+ save the SM will probably not survive.

Zoned
02-06-2010, 03:57
I think despite his perks in the new rules, he's overcosted and unuseable in competitive games. Only noobs will use him.

Zoned

Deetwo
02-06-2010, 06:11
(barring the fact that he can no longer use his 4+ ward and regen, but meh, he's still awesome.

That rumor was already discredited, apparently there's no change to saves.

Desert Rain
02-06-2010, 08:12
I know some people like to run small units of Swordmasters, but will these still be effective in the new edition? Stepping-up(think thats what its called) means there will be attacks back and with a 5+ save the SM will probably not survive.
I think the days of tiny units of 5-7 are gone since they will just die. I wouldn't want to field less than 14, so that you can survive a turn or two before you are dead. 18 and 21 might be good as well but then they are really expensive.

About the dragons, it says that they count as a hero choice in the book. So maybe they will count towards the hero percent quota instead of the Lord's.

Deetwo
02-06-2010, 08:48
About the dragons, it says that they count as a hero choice in the book. So maybe they will count towards the hero percent quota instead of the Lord's.

Not sure how that would make sense...
Would be kinda cool to have the option for a prince on a dragon AND an archmage in 2-2,5k, but I can't really see that happening.

The current rumor we have is that Lord mounts come out of the Lord allowance, so I think that's a safe bet to go with for now.

Desert Rain
02-06-2010, 09:07
I can't really see it happen either, I just wanted to point out that maybe it could happen. Don't count on it though. If you want a dragon I'd go for a Moon Dragon since you can use al your magic items points then.

Tyrion1
02-06-2010, 22:39
I hardly think only "noobs" will use Tyrion. Especially since his stomp attack, coupled with his breath weapon that can be used in close combat to make
2d6 str 4 attacks along with his 4 re-reollable str 7 attacks means he can smoke any unit in cc, he can solo hunt warmachines and violate monsters/other characters (especially flamable ones) and cavalry alike.

Pskyrunner
02-06-2010, 22:51
The main problem with no magic at all is that you have all those power dice each turn that you can't use at all. Even a single L.1 with a silver wand would make a basic magic phase sine he is cheap, for a HE, and you can use all the dice that you get.
Since you get more DD in 8th I'd say that no magic is more viable than in 7th. You'd want to make use of banner of the world dragon and our various MR items though.

do you still get the DD if u dont have any mage in the army?.. im not sure on this..

Desert Rain
02-06-2010, 23:23
do you still get the DD if u dont have any mage in the army?.. im not sure on this..
As far as I know you always get the dispel dice, whether you have a mage or not.

Red_Lep
02-06-2010, 23:30
I hardly think only "noobs" will use Tyrion. Especially since his stomp attack, coupled with his breath weapon that can be used in close combat to make
2d6 str 4 attacks along with his 4 re-reollable str 7 attacks means he can smoke any unit in cc, he can solo hunt warmachines and violate monsters/other characters (especially flamable ones) and cavalry alike.

Didn't they change Sunfangs attack to a S4 breath attack?

_dandaman_
02-06-2010, 23:48
Thanks for the thread Deasert Rain, but I disagree with 1 thing you said. SM are going to be the best unit in the game; hands down. Between being able to buff them with shield of saphery, the new scaly skin save, and being able to heal them back, helps them a bunch. Plus, even against hordes (do models in the second rank still only get 1 attack?) 14 SM get 21 rerollable S5 attacks. If the horde has spears, thats 18 hits, 15 wounds. A rank and usually a standard, the horde would have to do 12 wounds to even tie! SM are awesome; no doubt about it

Desert Rain
03-06-2010, 00:02
Their main problem is that they are outnumbered at least 2:1 against most things. They kill stuff like there's no tomorrow but with stepping up the enemy gets to attack back. And if that enemy is in horde formation we can expect severe casualties. We will win the combat, but then they are stubborn since they have more ranks. Next round will kill another dozen of them and they'll kill some of ours. The problem is that SMs are too expensive to build large units with, so they are loosing by attrition.

They will be good yes, but they will also suffer from attrition a lot. I think that they are best at a flank, and not as a mainline unit.

You can of course boost them with spells, if the opponent lets them through.

_dandaman_
03-06-2010, 00:25
Their main problem is that they are outnumbered at least 2:1 against most things. They kill stuff like there's no tomorrow but with stepping up the enemy gets to attack back. And if that enemy is in horde formation we can expect severe casualties. We will win the combat, but then they are stubborn since they have more ranks. Next round will kill another dozen of them and they'll kill some of ours. The problem is that SMs are too expensive to build large units with, so they are loosing by attrition.

They will be good yes, but they will also suffer from attrition a lot. I think that they are best at a flank, and not as a mainline unit.

You can of course boost them with spells, if the opponent lets them through.

Than again, we can also win a war of attrition by getting our points back; except for skaven and gobbos, horde forces are going to be expensive, and 14 SM are only 210 points, as opposed to 300-450 points, so our 210 point unit can make thier points back in a single turn, perhaps 2, and lets face it, for orcs and goobos and skaven, thier statlines aren't very promising. 50 Gobbos with spears get 35 attacks (subtracting the 15 wounds the SM do) hitting on 5s so thats 11 hits, 5.5 wounds 3 wounds. You win combat by 10, and you've got a 1/18 chance of rolling snake eyes with stubborn. And those 50 gobbos is a 220 point investment, as opposed to your 222 point unit. So even to a 50 strong unit, Sm still definitely carry the day.

Tyrion1
03-06-2010, 03:23
Didn't they change Sunfangs attack to a S4 breath attack?

Yeah, it is indeed a str 4 breath attack meaning 1 time per games he can let fly his 4 re-rollable str 7 ws 9 I10 attacks plus d6 stomp plus 2d6 str4 breath weapon attacks = very sad unit.

Red_Lep
03-06-2010, 05:10
Yeah, it is indeed a str 4 breath attack meaning 1 time per games he can let fly his 4 re-rollable str 7 ws 9 I10 attacks plus d6 stomp plus 2d6 str4 breath weapon attacks = very sad unit.

I get everything but the 2d6, I was under the impression that it was a template attack.

Deetwo
03-06-2010, 05:15
I get everything but the 2d6, I was under the impression that it was a template attack.

Supposedly template weapons can be used once per game in close combat for 2d6 hits.

Red_Lep
03-06-2010, 05:17
Supposedly template weapons can be used once per game in close combat for 2d6 hits.

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks!

Zoned
03-06-2010, 05:20
@ Tyrion1

You can make a character who is 90% as good for about 200pts less. I'd rather have the two extra Bolt Thorwers, thank you very much.

Tyrion1
03-06-2010, 06:12
Zoned

I would invite you to try. I think you will see that the character you create would not be an everything killer nor would he be able to be used as flexibly as Tyrion.

King_Pash
03-06-2010, 10:34
@ Tyrion1

You can make a character who is 90% as good for about 200pts less. I'd rather have the two extra Bolt Thorwers, thank you very much.

I'm sorry but I think this may be a slight exaggeration. What, a Prince with a 2+/5+ save and NO WEAPON? I don't think so..

Von Wibble
03-06-2010, 12:27
Since a lot of people are discussing the merits of swordmasters, I think its time to run a few calculations comparing the 3 elites.

We shall go for units of 14 in 2 ranks of 7. This provides a lot of attacks, whilst still keeping the units at a comfortable price. For simplicity we shall assume banner and musician but no champion in each unit.

Facing them we shall first have a horde style unit - 40 Orc Boyz with light armour and shields, in ranks of 6 (first score) and 10 (second scores, though note only 8 are in btb). Note these cost slightly more points. Again no champion. All numbers are rounded to nearest whole number, but if .5s are repeated they round down the 2nd time. Against PG assume orcs fail fear check in rounds 2, 5, 8, etc

Round 1 SM 10, Orcs 3, 7
Round 2 SM 9, 7 Orcs 3, 4
Round 3 SM 7, 3 Orcs 2, 4 If in horde formation SMs wiped out
Round 4 SM 6 Orcs 2 Orcs not stubborn and break, but only 4 SMs left

Round 1 WL 9, Orcs 4, 8
Round 2 WL 6, 4 Orcs 3, 5
Round 3 WL 4, 1 Orcs 2, 5 WLs wiped out by horde orcs
Round 4 WL 3 Orcs 3
Round 5 WL 1 Orcs 2 WLs wiped out by non horde orcs.

Round 1 PG 4 Orcs 2, 4 PG break check against horde at Ld 6
Round 2 PG 4, 3 Orcs 1, 2 PG break check against horde at Ld 7
Round 3 PG 3, 2 Orcs 2, 4 PG break check against horde at Ld 4 - run
Round 4 PG 3 Orcs 2
Round 5 PG 2 Orcs 1
Round 6 PG 2 Orcs 2
Round 7 PG 1 Orcs 2 PG break check at Ld 6
Round 8 PG 0 Orcs 1 PG break check Ld 6
Round 9 PG 1 Orcs 1 PG wiped out.

Conclusion, against orc boyz all the elites do badly, with only swordmasters winning out at all, with crippling casualties. However, if you can use the high elf army well to mitigate stubborn then the elites are capable of a 1 shot kill, whilst the horde troops cannot do this.

Desert Rain
03-06-2010, 22:12
Stubborn goes away if you hit them in the flank right? That makes them extremely important to us since we really can't afford the casualties that we're going to take otherwise.

FuzzyOrb
03-06-2010, 22:26
Stubborn goes away if you hit them in the flank right?

I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

LKHERO
04-06-2010, 01:29
Yeah, it is indeed a str 4 breath attack meaning 1 time per games he can let fly his 4 re-rollable str 7 ws 9 I10 attacks plus d6 stomp plus 2d6 str4 breath weapon attacks = very sad unit.

Tyrion is good.. but not great.
You pay for what he can do, and the fact that he's on a monster base keeps him out of my army.

Maybe one of these days he'll go on a smaller base. Until then, he's benched.

Arkh
04-06-2010, 07:27
From my experience with High Elves, swordmasters are just not the way to go. Yes, they are fantastic IF your opponent allows frontal confrontation with them. However.... They will take every single enemy ranged unit + magic missile to the face. This is probably just a problem with my particular play group, being that 2 of them play Wood Elves religiously.

I can't believe the HE Special Characters are even under discussion... Every single one of them are superior to what can be built by trying to equip a vanilla lord or hero. For that reason, my local group does not permit the use of special characters.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 10:44
I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

Hitting them in the flank is still a necessity however, since it will often minimise how much damage you take in return.

Having now done the maths on a lot of combats with high elves, a similar pattern is emerging.

In the first 1-2 rounds, the high elves high damage output ensures that they win combats against equally pointed enemy troops, taking a bit of damage but winning through. Often the enemy is taking stubborn ld checks so you'll need some luck to break him.

In the next few rounds its more like a draw, as the high elf casualties impact on the number of attacks.

Once the combat is past 4 rounds, the high elves tend to start losing as they just don't have the numbers. They tend to get wiped out after 6-7 rounds.

Conclusion from this is that high elves absolutely need to break teh enemy early on, or they will die to attrition (this is a confirmation of what pretty much any elf player knows).

Therefore High elves need to use their support units to focus their abilities on parts of the battlefield where a breakthrough is achievable. Thinning out ranks with missile fire or throwing in a chariot or 2 is compulsory. Making use of the faster M rate is critical. Engaging the enemy only when you are confident they will have to take a non stubborn break check in round 1 or 2 is definately the way to play it.

As far as special characters go, I have to agree with LK hero on tyrion. I could afford a prince with a unit of dragon princes for the price of him. The only special character who I think is worth it is Eltharion (Teclis just got a little too risky).

Deetwo
04-06-2010, 11:07
I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

Hmh, pretty sure that's not correct...


If you are only engaged to the front and have more ranks than the opponent, you are Stubborn. - Avian/Harry

TheSanityAssassin
05-06-2010, 05:49
Yeah. I'm almost certain that the flank will take away the Stubborn. If not, then Horde armies will be nearly impossible to deal with.

Also, do we know how the Step-Up works? Is it possible to kill enough of the foe that they don't step up to attack? IE if you attack a unit of 30 and kill 15 (3 ranks worth), do they still manage to get 2 ranks of attacks back?

As for Characters my thought is to take as many cheap Nobles with Great Weapons as possible...add some S6 punch to our spear formations...The big thing for me is figuring out how much magic is needed to survive in 8th, as I tend to always minimize my magic if possible.

Another thought....what about a cheap Noble on an unbarded steed with a unit of Reavers? Take advantage of the 12" charge to flank something on turn 1/get rid of enemy shooting on turn 1?

Deetwo
05-06-2010, 07:33
Also, do we know how the Step-Up works? Is it possible to kill enough of the foe that they don't step up to attack? IE if you attack a unit of 30 and kill 15 (3 ranks worth), do they still manage to get 2 ranks of attacks back?

That whole mechanic is removed and casualties are just removed from the back. So in your example the unit can still attack back with 2 ranks.


The big thing for me is figuring out how much magic is needed to survive in 8th, as I tend to always minimize my magic if possible.

Taking no magic can work fine, as dice generation isn't so dependant of wizards.
But it's a good idea to take atleast one wizard for the bonus to dispell rolls... Plus the new lores should be pretty sweet.


Take advantage of the 12" charge to flank something on turn 1/get rid of enemy shooting on turn 1?

Apparently you can't charge in the first turn if you use the pre-game movement.

Desert Rain
05-06-2010, 10:41
Apparently you can't charge in the first turn if you use the pre-game movement.
That's sad :(
But at least you can then use your 18" move to get into a good position for turn 2.
For magic I think that I'm going to go with a couple of L.2s. One with the Seerstaff and a scroll and the other with something else that I'm not really sure about at the moment.

Deetwo
05-06-2010, 11:02
But at least you can then use your 18" move to get into a good position for turn 2.

It's a 12" move for all fast cavalry by the way :)

Von Wibble
05-06-2010, 12:46
I think he means the regular 18" march move in turn 1. Combined with the 12" move that should set you up into a nice position.

Imo cheap nobles don't exist. Return attacks from enemy infantry will kill them in one round unless they are protected so its a waste of points. I think you are far better of investing in just a few well protected and powerful characters.

I know its unlikely, but if stubborn were to become a psychology type then standard of balance makes a lot of our problems go away.

Desert Rain - I would recommend the annulian crystal.

ScytheSwathe
05-06-2010, 12:57
My impression on magic is that a magic 'heavy' army will go with a lvl4 and a lvl2, or even a lvl4 and 2 lvl2s.

I think you cant duplicate spells, which becomes an issue if you have access to only 1 lore, so not an issue for high elves, but i still dont see a reason to take more that 8 levels of magic, because of dice generation. A heavy magic phase will want an archmage for the +4 to cast and dispel (+5 for high dispelling (+6 with the staff of sorcery!))

High elves are in a good place for magic, the potential to take from multiple lores, banner of extra dice, and potent dispelling should give us a lot of flexibility, and oodles of defence from the new superspells.

Equally taking no magic will be fine too, but considering the extra dispelling ability of elves, it might not be wise unless you have a particular plan for your hero slots.

Personally im going to try a level 4 and a level 2 backup for maximum magic, and a radiant gem BSB for minimum magic

Desert Rain
05-06-2010, 13:31
I know its unlikely, but if stubborn were to become a psychology type then standard of balance makes a lot of our problems go away.
You're right about that. I hope that's the case:D



Desert Rain - I would recommend the annulian crystal.
That's one of the items that I've been considering. Boosts our defence nicely.

I came to think about something else though. If a BSB gives you a re-roll against every psychology test within 12" won't that make Valour of Ages rather worthless since you always take a BSB? Only the flankers will benefit from it since they are outside of the BSB's bubble.

Von Wibble
06-06-2010, 19:25
Yes, I think Valour of ages would be lessened.

Its a special rule I commonly forget exists anyway however.

Falkman
06-06-2010, 20:36
Valour of Ages is a free fluff rule anyway, I doubt High Elves actually pay any points for it since it only works against one army, who in turn have a special rule against High Elves. The rules themselves are probably designed to be worth about the same (if they are or not is another thing).

Desert Rain
06-06-2010, 22:25
Valour of Ages is a free fluff rule anyway, I doubt High Elves actually pay any points for it since it only works against one army, who in turn have a special rule against High Elves. The rules themselves are probably designed to be worth about the same (if they are or not is another thing).
Yeah I know that. The issue is that it won't be nearly as effective in 8th as it is now since we get the same thing from a BSB. So when we are fighting dark elves they get eternal hatred and VoA only benefits units outside the BSB bubble, and they aren't more than one or 2 of those. So basically our rule gets redundant while the DE keeps theirs.

Falkman
06-06-2010, 23:01
Your ASF gets better though.
And there is always a choice not to take a BSB, it's not your rule that gets worse, it's the BSB rules that gets better. Valour will still be as effective as it is today if you don't have a BSB, and if you do take a BSB he will be better than today.

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-06-2010, 07:49
Never underestimate a STAR DRAGON, that and 7 lonley remaining archers won me my final grudge match game today. (the first time I used a star dragon mind you :)) The dragon killed a verminlord by himself, bunch of plague monks, decent chunk of the A-bomb, Doomwheel completely, 2 rat swarms and finsished off the last two wounds on the plauge furnace.

I' am thinking dragons will still be viable in 8th, but one will have to be interesting about the way they kit their prince, or just take a Moon instead.

AramilSairSianontel
07-06-2010, 08:59
Never underestimate a STAR DRAGON, that and 7 lonley remaining archers won me my final grudge match game today. (the first time I used a star dragon mind you :)) The dragon killed a verminlord by himself, bunch of plague monks, decent chunk of the A-bomb, Doomwheel completely, 2 rat swarms and finsished off the last two wounds on the plauge furnace.

I' am thinking dragons will still be viable in 8th, but one will have to be interesting about the way they kit their prince, or just take a Moon instead.

Aah...:) it warms my Caledorian heart to read stories such as this...

Desert Rain
09-06-2010, 12:22
I' am thinking dragons will still be viable in 8th, but one will have to be interesting about the way they kit their prince, or just take a Moon instead.
I agree that dragons will probably still be worth taking. Though I see the Moon Dragon becoming more popular now because of its lower pts cost. With it you can take a reasonable dragon lord in 2000 points, something no one else will be able to do.
When I play a dragon in 8th I think I'm going to use the moon variety.

It seems like great weapons are going back to +2 strength when you are mounted so a prince with a great weapon on a moon dragon will do 10 S6 attacks in CC, not to shabby. I think that's what I'm going to go with, and armour of caledor of course and something else depending on how many points I've got left.

The_Lemon
09-06-2010, 13:38
I do not agree on the matter of using 14 man units, I think little units will still be awesome specially for SM. If instead of getting a single 14 man unit you are able to take 2x 7 man ones, that means you will get your full attacks, 28vs21, and you have another support unit to be able to flank and destroy those horde units.
It can be used to ddelay enemy units, now that static combat res has been reduced units without fighty characters will not be able to win combat against a 6-7 man unit of sw, yes they will check on unmodified Ld but you will still have another unit to charge in the next turn because your little unit should not be wiped out (unless you charge something like Khorne CW).

The problem I see with that is panic checks, but with the bsb allowing re-rolls on that it shouldn't be a problem. Also if victory is decided like in 40k where 1 unit = 1 VP then having several little SW units will make that scenario very hard to win.

Sinaris
09-06-2010, 14:39
Hitting them in the flank is still a necessity however, since it will often minimise how much damage you take in return.

Having now done the maths on a lot of combats with high elves, a similar pattern is emerging.

In the first 1-2 rounds, the high elves high damage output ensures that they win combats against equally pointed enemy troops, taking a bit of damage but winning through. Often the enemy is taking stubborn ld checks so you'll need some luck to break him.

In the next few rounds its more like a draw, as the high elf casualties impact on the number of attacks.

Once the combat is past 4 rounds, the high elves tend to start losing as they just don't have the numbers. They tend to get wiped out after 6-7 rounds.

Conclusion from this is that high elves absolutely need to break teh enemy early on, or they will die to attrition (this is a confirmation of what pretty much any elf player knows).

Therefore High elves need to use their support units to focus their abilities on parts of the battlefield where a breakthrough is achievable. Thinning out ranks with missile fire or throwing in a chariot or 2 is compulsory. Making use of the faster M rate is critical. Engaging the enemy only when you are confident they will have to take a non stubborn break check in round 1 or 2 is definately the way to play it.

As far as special characters go, I have to agree with LK hero on tyrion. I could afford a prince with a unit of dragon princes for the price of him. The only special character who I think is worth it is Eltharion (Teclis just got a little too risky).

THIS. High Elves are going to have to, in my opinion at least attempt to get the most out of each and every phase. Buff/Obliterate with magic, weaken back ranks of larger units (less in there, the less will be hitting back come CC time) with shooting, and not letting combats be fought unsupported.

Its not going to be an easy ride. The enemy will not be sitting idle as we do this. They fear the Swordmasters, so they'll pepper them with arrow, dart and bolt. Warmachines will take massive tolls on our expensive troops, and when the lines do clash, as seen, the weight of numbers will likely overcome our battle prowess. So, what do we have?
Flexibility. OK, so a lot of people play without special characters, I do, but thats how i roll, and i dont play tournaments.

I really, REALLY have high hopes for Eltharion. With the changes to magic I can see myself Fielding him on Stormwing, a Noble with Gem of Hoeth and/or bow and perhaps a Dragon Mage. Warrior Mages excel in neither but their flexability gives an edge. I can see most of my Nobles wielding ranged weapons.

Our cavalry is there to put the hurt on those big blocks flank while our own blocks engage the front and our ability to pump out a lot of arrows a turn without taking up too much space (thankyou fire in 2 ranks and salvo) will allow us to castle up when necessary. The changes to regen, if true will be very beneficial to us (in that if an attack does D3/D6 wounds, regen is counted AFTER, so 2 bolthrowers fire at unit of Trolls, get a 2 and a 3, the trolls dont roll 2 Regen saves, but 5).

Our Chariots survive a bit longer now without S7=Dead, and thats more support. Our eagles have lost reliable march blocking, but at least we can attempt to use them as dedicated Warmachine hunters and with the Crush Them! attacks we will likely have greater success.

Allonairre
10-06-2010, 04:59
Thanks for posting this thread Desert Rain, it makes for fairly fascinating reading.

My two cents would be that our spearmen, seagaurd and probably Phoenix Gaurd should focus on depth, units of 30 that are 6 deep, to remove stubborn from most enemy as cheaply as possible.

Combine this with a chariot, cavalry or Swormaster charge and you should win round 1, break them and move on, Ok that's the theory.

I was also trying to come up with an effective MSU strategy, best I got was multiple units of 10 to 15 Swordmsters or Whitelions spaced evenly in a line (fairly spread out), the central unit will flee the charge the outer units collapse onto opponents flanks. 14 or 15 hardly seems like a small unit though. (with enemy retaining stubborn when flanked this won't work well though)

I think that a L4 mage backed up by 2-3 nobles will be the best bet with characters, mainly because two L2 mages can only be supported by a prince and poorly equiped BSB (based on 500 for Heroes, and 500 for lords).

Sorry to spout so much in only my second post but I am struggling with how we will adapt effectively to the new rules.

Sinaris
10-06-2010, 06:13
Thanks for posting this thread Desert Rain, it makes for fairly fascinating reading.

My two cents would be that our spearmen, seagaurd and probably Phoenix Gaurd should focus on depth, units of 30 that are 6 deep, to remove stubborn from most enemy as cheaply as possible.

Combine this with a chariot, cavalry or Swormaster charge and you should win round 1, break them and move on, Ok that's the theory.

I was also trying to come up with an effective MSU strategy, best I got was multiple units of 10 to 15 Swordmsters or Whitelions spaced evenly in a line (fairly spread out), the central unit will flee the charge the outer units collapse onto opponents flanks. 14 or 15 hardly seems like a small unit though. (with enemy retaining stubborn when flanked this won't work well though)

I think that a L4 mage backed up by 2-3 nobles will be the best bet with characters, mainly because two L2 mages can only be supported by a prince and poorly equiped BSB (based on 500 for Heroes, and 500 for lords).

Sorry to spout so much in only my second post but I am struggling with how we will adapt effectively to the new rules.

The thing is, with two units of these MSU hitting the flanks of one of these units, stubborn or not, they are going to be taking a hell of a lot of wounds, and whats a stubborn unit without much to hit back with? A dead one.

Desert Rain
10-06-2010, 09:33
If I remember correctly the fight in 2 ranks doesn't apply to the flank so even if stubborn remains hitting the flank is good.

2 L.2s can be effective, how about this:

L.2 with Seerstaff, Scroll
L.2 with Annulian Crystal

With a BSB with AoC and a Halberd since you miss 3 points for a great weapon. You can gain those by changing the magic items on one of the mages.

Then you have 500 points to spend on a prince so you'll be fine there.


However, since our troops are really expensive I don't think that maxing out on characters is the right way to go. I'm still considering taking a L.4 and a BSB which comes to less than 25% of a 2250 points army in total. That gives a lot of points to spend on troops. Possibly you could throw in a cheap noble to babysit some unit.

Foxbat
10-06-2010, 14:00
However, since our troops are really expensive I don't think that maxing out on characters is the right way to go. I'm still considering taking a L.4 and a BSB which comes to less than 25% of a 2250 points army in total. That gives a lot of points to spend on troops. Possibly you could throw in a cheap noble to babysit some unit.I am also in this camp and plan on taking a noble on foot as a third character.

As for MSU, I’m not convinced that this is a functional strategy given “Stepping Up”, TLoS improving shooting opportunities, and dangerous terrain. Seven SM only require 2 wounds before having to take a panic roll and that results in ~27% chance that they panic. While having a BSB will help, to benfit you will need to keep your forces close together, which would hinder your plan of getting flank charges with your small units.

Pskyrunner
10-06-2010, 20:17
I agree that dragons will probably still be worth taking. Though I see the Moon Dragon becoming more popular now because of its lower pts cost. With it you can take a reasonable dragon lord in 2000 points, something no one else will be able to do.
When I play a dragon in 8th I think I'm going to use the moon variety.

It seems like great weapons are going back to +2 strength when you are mounted so a prince with a great weapon on a moon dragon will do 10 S6 attacks in CC, not to shabby. I think that's what I'm going to go with, and armour of caledor of course and something else depending on how many points I've got left.

i cant see u fielding a reasonable moon dragon lord setup at 2000 points..
prince on moon is 450 points.. so its just 50 points on magic items..

i wouldnt call that reasonable, but possible

DE can do setup like this too of course (with the better dragon)

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-06-2010, 05:09
Is it me or is alot of our magic items bring ripped off? I see the banner of Ellyrion, the silver wand, sheild of "shenanigans" (magic spell I know just wanted to throw that out there though) , lions standard, i could go on. This is tactical in the sense that if 8th ed. offers these items as a reduced price then not only is "Joe Schmo" going to have them but more imoortantly reveals that if the magic common items are less expensive than say the silver wand for example one would be inclined to take the now unoriginal common magic item for less points as opposesed to our race specific

wamphyri101
12-06-2010, 12:49
Hey if it gives you the chance to have 2 silverwands or even 2 lions banners (one ours, one basic list) then thats fine by me

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 11:30
Out of interest, what about dragon mages?

Shooting is more prevalent with 2 ranks and TLOS, making him even more fragile.

But...

He has more access to protective items thanks to the presense of the ones in the rbrb.

He adds power dice to each casting, which becomes even more powerful with the cap of 12.

You can fit one plus bsb plus radiant gem prince / archmage in a 2500 points army quite comfortably.

Breath weapons have improved.

Overall I think he gains more than he loses and is worth a go.

Similarly I think the Sun Dragon could be a better mount for a prince. It gives you full flexibility with his setup (I think 50 points on a moon dragon pretty much amounts to giving him a lance and a ward save).

On MSU - I see units of 7 as being a possibility, but unlike before they will not break enemies. I think a true MSU style with no units above 10 or so models will not work. But using swordmasters as detachments for larger spear units could have merit.

Falkman
13-06-2010, 11:46
The ward save items mentioned so far from the Common items list are all armours, so he won't be able to use them.
But you are right in the fact that his extra dice will mean much more now.
Can't say I believe his breath weapon will be better though, sure it will hit everything it touches, but it's one use only, and at S2.

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 11:54
I believe only 2 of the 3 wards are armour - 1 heavy, 1 light. There is also a straight 4+ with no conditions attached (a Holy Relic basically).

I thought the breath weapon was 1 use only in combat, otherwise each turn?

Falkman
13-06-2010, 12:05
They're all listed under Armour, though I would obviously be very happy if it turns out the straight 4+ ward is a talisman instead.

Breath weapons are just straight up one use only, you can choose to spend that use either in combat or by shooting, but it's only ever one use total.

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 14:25
I'm not sure - even if its in the armour section I don't see why it won't be useable as it isn't listed as light or heavy armour. Imo its probably a mistake and goes in talismans / enchanted anyway. Time will tell.

I still think the more important factors - power dice and easier to fit into your army list - make him an easier pick.

Desert Rain
13-06-2010, 18:40
Seems kinda strange to put ward save items under armour and not talismans to me. That would mean that, unless they change the rules, the Dragon Mage can't take them.

With 8th edition I feel even less inclined to take a DM than I do today. Mostly because he is really expensive, and if you want another character (which you do) you won't have much space for the troops since ours are so expensive.

Falkman
13-06-2010, 19:21
I feel the same to be honest.
He's gonna take up a huge chunk of your hero allowance, and due to True line of sight he'll be almost impossible to hide, so he's gonna be even more vulnerable than he is today.
Yes, the extra dice are theoretically awesome, but if he won't live to use them it's pointless.

CrystalSphere
13-06-2010, 20:20
I am not sure how spearmen will hold in the new edition, but i donīt see myself using the horde rule with them (you would need 50 of them to benefit from the rule) and instead i think i will stick to the 5x5 formation which will now provide 20 attacks and a extra rank to soak up casualties. About the other core units i think archers will at least now be more deployable if anything, and lothern sea guard may be useful if deployed wide and then reform when the enemy is close, but i donīt see myself using much the volley fire rule, as you lose a lot of shots plus you canīt move at all.

Perhaps 25 seaguard in 13 wide one rank, 12 wide the second, when the enemy is close they reform to 5 wide and they should have around 20 models when the enemy get to fight them in melee, so they can use their spears fully.

Pskyrunner
13-06-2010, 21:48
The ward save items mentioned so far from the Common items list are all armours, so he won't be able to use them.
But you are right in the fact that his extra dice will mean much more now.
Can't say I believe his breath weapon will be better though, sure it will hit everything it touches, but it's one use only, and at S2.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32236

here is a list of all magic items and there is a 4+ ward save for 45 points in talisman section tho..


still i also think DM is nerfed.. he looses really good 7th fire sword rhuin spell.. new one just has +1 to wound : / (its more a unit buff now)

nick_robinsonchia
13-06-2010, 23:02
If you don't mind I'm gonna link that in the magic items anew WoC threads.

_dandaman_
14-06-2010, 02:43
I just had a thought, kamakazi elves. Units of 10 SM, no command, 180 points, should be good enough to chew through a unit twice it's points cost, and casualties dont matter, there there to die, they should rack up about 11 wounds, and the steadfast rule doesn't matter, because there just there to kill something much bigget than itself! Plus you almost tarpit a large unit, as HE how cool is that!

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 02:45
The ward save items mentioned so far from the Common items list are all armours, so he won't be able to use them.
But you are right in the fact that his extra dice will mean much more now.
Can't say I believe his breath weapon will be better though, sure it will hit everything it touches, but it's one use only, and at S2.

Are 6's still 'always wounding' ? I read it much earlier in the piece, thought it to be debunked, but recently it propped up again.

If it IS in, then the S2 breath isnt that bad.

Dandaman: We think alike, just yesterday I posted the same sort of idea over in the 'Elite vs Regular Infantry' (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260717) thread.

Somtimes that suicide run of 7 Swordmasters (105 points aint that much) is worth it, they cut down a whole bunch of X unit, get wiped, or sent running with the enemy hot in persuit which allows a flank charge, or perhaps has knocked off a good chunk, depleting bodies that would have otherwise 'Stepped up' in the consequent rounds of battle with the mainstay of your army. Course there are other ways of doing these things, but its somthing to consider.

King_Pash
14-06-2010, 03:27
I just had a thought, kamakazi elves. Units of 10 SM, no command, 180 points, should be good enough to chew through a unit twice it's points cost, and casualties dont matter, there there to die, they should rack up about 11 wounds, and the steadfast rule doesn't matter, because there just there to kill something much bigget than itself! Plus you almost tarpit a large unit, as HE how cool is that!

Well, in my opinion, this wouldn't be as an amazing tactic as first thought. First, 180pts is actually quite a bit in an HE army for a "disposable" unit/ Second, SM would need to seriously pick their targets to "chew" through them. Third, they are quite unlikely to live much past the first charge (if even that) so less likely to actually hold an enemy in place.

Outcome: not a great throw-away unit and a bit prices. Keep trying! ;)

Dilthar
14-06-2010, 08:41
Perhaps 25 seaguard in 13 wide one rank, 12 wide the second, when the enemy is close they reform to 5 wide and they should have around 20 models when the enemy get to fight them in melee, so they can use their spears fully.


depending on how the rounding goes on the volley rule, you could get the same number of shots with 5x5 as you do with 13 and 12. if it rounds up then you shoot with 19 (thats first two rows, with 3 out of 5 of each remaining row).

I'm personally hoping that it rounds up, rounding down seems like too much loss on str 3 shots...that and I would love to have defensive stakes and a 3 rank bonus on my bret archers :D

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 08:44
Dilthar, its front two ranks, and half of third, not half of consequent ranks.

Falkman
14-06-2010, 08:56
That is not what the rumours say Sinaris.

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 10:01
Then I stand corrected. Thanks for the heads up, looks like
I better reread the sticky thoroughly

Allonairre
14-06-2010, 23:16
Seagaurd definitely get better, but still that is a huge amount to spend on a unit. I think that the for about the same points you can get 25 Spearmen and 10 Archers, Allowing you to break stubborn on most enemy and have a shooting unit that you keep out of combat and can continue to pick of enemy flankers after the spear/seagaurd have been engaged. Not to mention the 30" range on Archers.

It is a close call, but for me the 2 units normally trumps 1 especially if more scenarios are objective driven.

Desert Rain
14-06-2010, 23:54
I know that I'm going to use archers+spears, at least to begin with.
I don't have any models for sea guards except 14 maiden guards, but so few won't cut it in 8th edition.
Allonairre has some points as well. You get two units instead of one, you get the extra 6" range which is pretty big and you can keep shooting while in CC.

Darthvegeta800
15-06-2010, 14:42
For someone who has an army of Dark Elves stored away and plans to use it to get into 8th edition, these are exciting times.
I look forward to playing large quantities of the Spearmen and Executioners for instance.
Leave the big epic heroes for 40K. (which I also play)
Now to finish up my other projects and to get to painting... -___-;

King_Pash
15-06-2010, 17:15
Having had a look through the 8th Ed. book today from a High Elf perspective, it looks pretty darn interesting. It remains to be seen if HE have been nerfed or boosted by the new edition but my instinct tells me its the latter. Especially since there are a good number of rules that bring down the power-level of the top armies while keeping ours the same/better. I'm feeling rather optimistic and excited to try it all out!

One thing I certainly did not keep in mind is that all HE (apart from the great weapon-wielding ones) strike first in combat. Perhaps that's just an oversight on my point but it makes a difference on the odd occasions where we face armies that have a higher Initiative than us (Skaven and WoC in particular). Looking good! :D

Desert Rain
15-06-2010, 21:38
High Elves will strike first with great weapons in 8th due to the FAQ.

Allonairre
16-06-2010, 01:51
Are you sure about that DesertRain, I thought that Great Weapons and ASF cancelled each other out and struck in Initiative order in 8th ed.

Falkman
16-06-2010, 02:28
It is rumoured that High Elves will ignore that and still strike with true ASF, even when wielding great weapons.

Desert Rain
16-06-2010, 10:45
Are you sure about that DesertRain, I thought that Great Weapons and ASF cancelled each other out and struck in Initiative order in 8th ed.
99% sure, both due to the rumoured FAQ but also due to the wording of the SoA rule itself.

wamphyri101
16-06-2010, 12:42
Loving the rumour that basically kills Teclis! (till errata comes out)

So when 8th Ed hit there are no more miscasts on a double 1. A double 6 means irresistible force spell but your lose control and must roll on the new table (which blows most stuff up nowadays)

That means any double teclis casts (due to his rule) he will pretty much end up blowing up!

Hannimar
16-06-2010, 12:59
I just had a thought, kamakazi elves. Units of 10 SM, no command, 180 points, should be good enough to chew through a unit twice it's points cost, and casualties dont matter, there there to die, they should rack up about 11 wounds, and the steadfast rule doesn't matter, because there just there to kill something much bigget than itself! Plus you almost tarpit a large unit, as HE how cool is that!

A very fluffy attitude in playing an Elven army. :D

- You there, Anatarion. Take this Holy Hand Granade of Hoeth, stick it to your two-handed sword and charge that goblin horde. Isha will grant you 72 virgins...

I wonder how will the Errata change High Magic. It may interesting as all the 'lore' spells are much stronger, and it was rumoured that only the Skaven and Beastmen magic will remain the same.

The worst part for my army is that after reading the Shadow King I'm converting my army to Ellyrion theme + shadowlands. Great, as both fast cavalry and skirmishers seem to be getting worse in 8th :D

Desert Rain
16-06-2010, 15:29
I've heard that it will be FAQ:ed as follows.

Teclis gets total power at any double, but he only gets loss of control on a double six, which is prevented by his magical item the first time it happens in every turn.

Take it with salt as usual.

Shadow_Steed
16-06-2010, 18:55
Listen up fellow High Elves!

Right now I have 2*18 Spearmen, is it worth it to buy another box of 16 and add to my existing units or is it a waste of money on old models? What do you think?

18 seems too small for 8th ed.

Falkman
16-06-2010, 19:00
I would run them at least 25 man strong, less than that and they will just vapourise under the weight of proper combat units.
Also keep in mind that with spears they wil be attacking with four ranks, so to get the most out of them you really need them to be at the very minimum 20 man strong, 25 gives you a small casualty buffer before their combat prowess begins to dwindle.

Von Wibble
16-06-2010, 19:05
18 is imo too small. But it is rumoured there is a release wave for high elves later in the year, and there will be lothern sea guard in the box release so you may want to hold fire.

If the rules change for Teclis is indeed as described then he becomes sickeningly good. I would never use him under those circumstances as it would just feel like a crutch.

As far as comparing the Seaguard with Spears + archers goes, you also need to consider that the seaguard do get more shots than the spears + archers, albeit at lower range. The stand + shoot reaction is also a plus.

I noticed that after each combat round it is rumoured that the winning unit can reform, even if the enemy have been broken (as long as they don't pursue) and the losing unit can reform if they pass a ld check.

Generally HE units do win the combats in early rounds.

So my question is, could it be viable to go wide with elite units to maximise casualties in early rounds, and then reform to minimise casualties if things go wrong and the enemy hasn't broken, giving extra time for reinforcements to turn the tide?

Falkman
16-06-2010, 19:10
So my question is, could it be viable to go wide with elite units to maximise casualties in early rounds, and then reform to minimise casualties if things go wrong and the enemy hasn't broken, giving extra time for reinforcements to turn the tide?
I don't know really. I mean when a unit becomes so small it can't fight at full strength anymore (7x2 for me) it's also generally too small to provide proper static combat resolution. A unit of 13 Swordmasters will only provide 1 rank bonus, it's not very impressive if you ask me.

King_Pash
16-06-2010, 22:07
So my question is, could it be viable to go wide with elite units to maximise casualties in early rounds, and then reform to minimise casualties if things go wrong and the enemy hasn't broken, giving extra time for reinforcements to turn the tide?

My suspicion would be no, as you aren't allowed to reduce the amount of models in contact from combat to combat. Sorry. :/

Emeraldw
16-06-2010, 22:25
Just read the rulebook and I just want to bring some clarity to what people have been talking about with elves.

First we reroll to hit if we have EQUAL or higher Ini. Very important.

Second it makes it clear that Great Weapons "grant" the ASL rule. As stated in the ASL section.

SoA gives ASF, Regardless of the weapon being used.

ASF and ASL "Cancel" each other in the BRB.

High Elves then have ASF. Great Weapons "Grant" ASL. Normally, they would cancel. However SoA says they have it no matte what weapon they are wielding. Great weapons essentially remove ASF from High Elves, but SoA prevents this. As a result, ASF cannot be removed from High Elves and as such ASF with great weapons.

It is quite clear based on the rules, intent of SoA and how previous editions have worked with regards to High Elves and great weapons. Further, this is based off of reading the rules straight from the 8th BRB and using its own language.

High Elves ASF with Great Weapons.

Desert Rain
16-06-2010, 22:35
Thanks for sharing EmeraldW. The part about equal or high initiative really makes us better against almost everything. It's nice that the ASF, ASL and SoA rules are cleared up then.

When it comes to spears I'm currently thinking about a unit of 24 with a cheap noble in it. That are about as many as I can justify in a unit before it gets to expensive.

Mangobreeder
16-06-2010, 22:39
However SoA says they have it no matte what weapon they are wielding.t weapons essentially remove ASF from High Elves, but SoA prevents this. As a result, ASF cannot be removed from High Elves and as such ASF with great weapons.

It is quite clear based on the rules, intent of SoA and how previous editions have worked with regards to High Elves and great weapons. Further, this is based off of reading the rules straight from the 8th BRB and using its own language.

High Elves ASF with Great Weapons.

amen, ive been saying this for weeks, the word "regardles" is very clear, and allows ASF with great weapons

Emeraldw
16-06-2010, 22:39
Thanks for sharing EmeraldW. The part about equal or high initiative really makes us better against almost everything. It's nice that the ASF, ASL and SoA rules are cleared up then.

When it comes to spears I'm currently thinking about a unit of 24 with a cheap noble in it. That are about as many as I can justify in a unit before it gets to expensive.

It is for me anyway. Sure we can wait for Errata but I would bet money my interpretation is correct. Just so clear after reading it.

Personally I am going with LSG over spearmen. now that I can use those bows and need 25%, they make the better basic choice in my head. Question is, how many? I was thinking 1 block of 25 and then 2 archers to reach 500.

Oh and there are many enchanted banners to look at. Those will change things around a lot as anything else.

Sinaris
17-06-2010, 09:02
It all depends what we are coming up against in my oppinion Emeraldw. Dark Elves I would take a Fire Banner on them and launch them at Hydra's and the like, heavier armored enemies more than likely it would be the AP banner, however that level 6 spell from lore of shadow looks great!

Drakemaster
17-06-2010, 13:12
Liking the new Monbstrous Mounts rule...

Monstrous mounts (such as Giant eagles, Juggernauts, Pegasi, Unicorns and so on, but not large monsters like Dragons and Griffons) "merge" their profile with the rider... the model will use the toughness of the rider and the higher of both wound stats. A hero (2 wounds) riding a Pegaus (3 Wounds) will have 3 wounds and the T stat of the rider.
Its rumoured you also get +1 AS (mounted) as well. Makes Eagle-mounted heroes quite tasty, as you can get 2+ Armour saves easily, combined with 3W. The traditional reaver bow hero looks alot more survivable and appealing now...

Beast
17-06-2010, 15:10
Does'nt that make your mount T3 now?
Not good for dragons......

_dandaman_
17-06-2010, 15:22
Does'nt that make your mount T3 now?
Not good for dragons......

I believe you read the sticky wrong, It says you combine the profile and you take the best stat available, so the Prince would be the dragons toughnes for example.

Drakemaster
17-06-2010, 15:33
the Prince would be the dragons toughnes for example.
Yopu both read the sticky wrong. It specifically states 'NOT large monsters like Dragons etc' so Prince on Dragon works the same as in 7th.

what is the new in this latest edition
Erm... try the rumour roundup perhaps? Its here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845).

wamphyri101
17-06-2010, 16:41
As drakemaster said. The change is only for non monsterous creatures.

Ie Eagles, Horses.

This means a noble on Great eagle now has 2 wounds and a toughness of 3 with an armour save of the noble. This means the eagle cannot be shot from under the rider.

DOES NOT EFFECT DRAGONS (just to confirm)

On the other hand dragons get the thunderous stomp (like D6 str 7 attacks I think)

Drakemaster
17-06-2010, 16:49
Seeing as the roundup says 'Monstrous mounts', it clearly isn't intended to cover 'non-monstrous' creatures! :)

Going by the description, I'd assume it covers multi-wound mounts that are not Large Targets... standard cavalry is the same as always.

And I did post the roundup quote before, but apparently noone read it. So here goes again:

the model will use the toughness of the rider and the higher of both wound stats. A hero (2 wounds) riding a Pegaus (3 Wounds) will have 3 wounds and the T stat of the rider.
So a Noble will have T3 W3, seeing as the Eagle has 3 W to the riders 2, and thus the Eagles W is used instead of the riders.

Jack of Blades
17-06-2010, 16:50
I'm afraid Dragon Mages are now largely useless as FSoR has been remade. Shame :)

Desert Rain
17-06-2010, 17:05
A chicken noble feels more viable in this edition than in 7th. You get an extra wounds, loose a point of toughness but gain +1 to your save. In addition you can't have your mount shot away from you.

Sappysid101
17-06-2010, 23:15
Has anyone else noticed that you can field Alith Anar in 1k games? Makes me wanna play him as i hated only being able to use him in larger games. Moving on though, what do you think would be better, the Staff of Sorcery (+1 Dispell) or the Annulian Crystal (steal a power dice). This would be based on small(ish) games between 1k / 1.5k.

- Sid

zuriel45
17-06-2010, 23:31
i'm not 100% on this but i'm pretty sure griffon and riders are still serperate and not used as merged profiles.

ScytheSwathe
18-06-2010, 00:51
Annulian vs staff of sorcery is goig to depend more on the meta i think, lots of smaller spells= staff. fewer bigger spells= annulian. To that end, i suspect that the crystal will be better. +5 to dispel will be nice enough anyway. And thats before 'dispel magic' comes into play.

incidently, i thought id mention here what i said in another thread. lore of shadows will be awesome, a spell to make your attack strength = your Ld. Go spearmen! 24 models (4x6) witha champ will be getting 25 attacks, WS4, likely rerolling to hit, at S8, and striking first. Ouch.

I really think shadows/death will be the way to run a magic heavy army of any type, due to stat modifiers in both lores, and elves will recieve less on the recieving end, because both lores have I tests for their big killy spells. If they get through our magic defence.

Emeraldw
18-06-2010, 01:23
i'm not 100% on this but i'm pretty sure griffon and riders are still serperate and not used as merged profiles.

Monstrous mounts are still separate.

Allonairre
18-06-2010, 05:52
Magic gives me quite a bit of concern due to the power of the spells available to any caster, there are truly game breaking spells in there now and magic was already being "abused" although that is a bit of a harsh term. Casters like Teclis, and Kairos Fateweaver were already powerful, now they will verge on unstoppable (except via fatal miscast).

Managing a magic phase is going to become really difficult. With only 1 arcane item per mage and no double ups at all allowed I cannot see an effective way for Elves to run both offense and defense.

A solid defensive set up could be
Archmage with Staff of Sorcery (+6 to dispel in total)
L1 Mage with Annulian Crystal

I cannot come up with a good offense except perhaps any mage with Staff of Solidity (or Teclis but I don't like that idea).
L4's can cast high cost spells on only a few dice but be vulnerable to Failing to cast so ending their casting, our Level 1 mages will probably be too expensive to spam multiple "expendable" mages which Goblins, Skinks and even Humans could do.

On the plus side Sigil of Asuryan just became a really great dispel scroll that I will take occasionally since 2 dispel scrolls aren't an option.

Question:
Who thinks the Banner of Sorcery will still be worth it?
It can force an imbalance (more than 2 PD:1 DD) but it may not generate any dice at all if you roll high or channel alot of dice. Maybe useful with only a couple of casters then.

Falkman
18-06-2010, 08:57
Question:
Who thinks the Banner of Sorcery will still be worth it?
It can force an imbalance (more than 2 PD:1 DD) but it may not generate any dice at all if you roll high or channel alot of dice. Maybe useful with only a couple of casters then.
I think anything that gives you extra power dice over your opponent is going to be really good, since it really pushes the scales in terms of what the opponent can manage. Unless you roll double sixes for magic dice Banner of Sorcery will still be useful.

cptcosmic
18-06-2010, 13:52
Lore of Life is a very good addition to the HE now. makes the squishy units sturdier and raises the most expensive ones back to life. Level 4 + Sorcery Banner is set.

LKHERO
19-06-2010, 08:38
I think a couple of things will change this edition in respect to what I take as my magic user.

If I want the Lv.4 Archmage, he will probably go in with the Banner of Sorcery.

Teclis, will not need the BoS anymore because he'll just freeball with his Staff (which is better). Although if DesertRain is correct, I'll probably be taking Teclis every game.

Magic is now fickle.. people don't have the excuse to say that Teclis is just overpowered and insane. Everytime I risk a miscast, I risk the deaths of many expensive Elves and I know that my army can't support that.

Anyways, for the Lv.4 Archmage, a +6 to dispel is very good. If I want to play with Magic, it'll probably be the Lv.4 with Staff of Sorcery and a Lv.2 with Annulian. My BSB will also probably take the 5 point enchanted shield and Radiant Gem for a Lv.1 HE Wizard with a 1+ armor save (since he'll be in full DP gear).

minionboy
19-06-2010, 09:40
Anyone else notice that the Banner of Arcane Protection on Phoenix Guard gives them a 2+ ward to magic?

minionboy
19-06-2010, 10:26
I'm afraid Dragon Mages are now largely useless as FSoR has been remade. Shame :)

I actually disagree, they're just different. FSoR is an amazing spell to enhance your own units!

Desert Rain
19-06-2010, 10:27
Anyone else notice that the Banner of Arcane Protection on Phoenix Guard gives them a 2+ ward to magic?

Yes :D
Put banner of the world dragon on another unit and loremaster's cloak on a third and you won't have to worry much about damage causing magic :)

If scrolls take up an arcane items slot and makes you unable to take other arcane items a single L.4 might not be that great of a choice now that I think about it.

LKHERO
19-06-2010, 17:59
If scrolls take up an arcane items slot and makes you unable to take other arcane items a single L.4 might not be that great of a choice now that I think about it.

I would assume it would work the same way it does now... or else no one would want to carry a scroll lol.

It's worth mentioning that our Great Weapons are now +2 strength when mounted, but with ASL. We don't care!

Falkman
19-06-2010, 18:15
I'm pretty sure scrolls in 8th edition takes up the Arcane item slot.

LKHERO
19-06-2010, 18:16
I'm pretty sure scrolls in 8th edition takes up the Arcane item slot.

I'm pretty sure they do now.. but it doesn't count towards the 1 per slot rule.

Falkman
19-06-2010, 18:48
And I'm saying I think they will in 8th.

TheSanityAssassin
20-06-2010, 03:04
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Dispel Scrolls in 8th not only take up your only Arcane slot, but can also only be 1 per army.

I'm still thinking of going Seerstaff with my LV 4 and taking shadow. I know it' s a risk but that 4 rank ASF S8 spears is just too good to pass up. They'll butcher most anything in the game.

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 06:14
I see the Seerstaff and Annulian Crystal playing big parts in the upcoming edition. A level 4 with +6 to dispel is just too good to pass up. Now it's really a debate of whether or not the secondary caster would have a scroll + Seerstaff or carry the Annulian Crystal.

zuriel45
20-06-2010, 08:19
anyone feel blocks of huge blocks of 50 spearmen/LSG supported by a shadow mage with the #6 spell that allows them to attack with Ld instead of S will become way powerful? I'm thinking of running something with that, taking those 50 spearmen and turning them into a 50A S8 anvil sounds pretty fun to me....and rerolls in all likelyhood...

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 08:46
8th Ed. Deathstar Edition.

I'd like to mention that one Dwarf Stone Thrower with 2x RoPenetration, RoAccuracy and a Engineer will literally **** all over that.

S5 Stonethrower with re-rolls to scatter and distance and no partials. Yeah, have fun with that.

fluffstalker
20-06-2010, 11:40
Hey guys.

I dabbled in fantasy for a while in 7th edition, but was thoroughly disgusted with the balance issues and the fact that cavalry and monsters could plough through any non deathstar infantry easily and make games a point and click affair. With the new rules though, they seem to have addressed these issues and I was thinking of kickstarting my new high elf army, removing the silly star dragon and cavalry spam and going back to basics with a saphery/citizen levy theme army.

Basically - blocks of spearmen, archers, supported by a medium magic base for buffing and support and units of silver helms, swordmasters and maybe chariots for counter charge purposes. Add in bolt throwers for anti monster work. What do you guys think? Too immobile? Not hitty enough?

Emeraldw
21-06-2010, 14:19
Basically - blocks of spearmen, archers, supported by a medium magic base for buffing and support and units of silver helms, swordmasters and maybe chariots for counter charge purposes. Add in bolt throwers for anti monster work. What do you guys think? Too immobile? Not hitty enough?

Honestly I am not sure. My 2k list is all infantry. I don't take cavalry at all for these mock 8th lists. But I don't think you will see a big issue, but I can say this, take dragon princes instead of Silver helms. The new rules make Dragon Princes that much better than Silver Helms. Silver helms couldn't compete against them before and even less now.

On topic; Teclis. I think he might be the mage to take in 8th. I want to use an archmage on a Great Eagle, but I look at magic and Teclis and I think, why bother not taking him? For not that much more, you get D3 Power/Dispel Dice, Scroll to destroy a spell, IF on doubles and ignore the first miscast each turn! Such an amazing spell caster is at home with 8th.

The extra dice is fantastic for a system with random power dice. IF helps with all those scrolls people will take. Ignoring miscasts is going to be VERY important in 8th. On top of that, he comes with a really good dispel scroll. Why NOT take Teclis if you can afford him for magic?

King_Pash
21-06-2010, 14:31
Here is a tactic i've been mulling over for a wee while. Let me share it with you and see whether you think it'll be viable:

Take a Phoenix Guard bunker (15-ish with full command) and a Mage (L4 probably or less if you don't want to put that much points in one unit). Take either the Banner of Arcane Protection or the Amulet of Fire and fire away with your magic. If they miscast, they get either a 2+ or 3+ Ward save against the pie-plate. Should keep a tight leash against magic-bombs.

Alternatively, what other item combo's can you think of that we can create to help cope with the new nasty miscast table?

Falkman
21-06-2010, 14:37
Why NOT take Teclis if you can afford him for magic?
You forgot that he knows an entire lore.
I'm all with you on this, the only reason not to take Teclis is if you are not allowed special characters.

Emeraldw
21-06-2010, 14:45
Here is a tactic i've been mulling over for a wee while. Let me share it with you and see whether you think it'll be viable:

Take a Phoenix Guard bunker (15-ish with full command) and a Mage (L4 probably or less if you don't want to put that much points in one unit). Take either the Banner of Arcane Protection or the Amulet of Fire and fire away with your magic. If they miscast, they get either a 2+ or 3+ Ward save against the pie-plate. Should keep a tight leash against magic-bombs.

Alternatively, what other item combo's can you think of that we can create to help cope with the new nasty miscast table?

Not a bad idea. And it acts protection against enemy magic. But if you want to avoid miscasts, look above.


You forgot that he knows an entire lore.
I'm all with you on this, the only reason not to take Teclis is if you are not allowed special characters.

Your right. I know he does but I didn't mention it. I don't think it is as big of a buff in this edition with you getting to choose the spells if you roll doubles but the option is quite nice. Personally so far I think the lore of light will be the standard go to lore. Maybe lore of life. I really am not sold on offensive magic yet.

If infantry becomes the rule of the day, D6 wounds for a couple turns isn't going to make or break combat unless you can buy a couple more turns but with everyone's avg charge range going up and no more march blocking I am not sure shooting will be as effective as we might want. Though, in my mock lists i have 2 RBT's and 40 bows so combine that with some lore of fire pain...:D

Kerill
21-06-2010, 14:50
You forgot that he knows an entire lore.
I'm all with you on this, the only reason not to take Teclis is if you are not allowed special characters.

Or if you want both players to have a fun game.

Wednesday Friday Addams
21-06-2010, 14:52
You can still have a fun game. Teclis isn't invincible.

Emeraldw
21-06-2010, 15:05
Or if you want both players to have a fun game.

I am not sure if Teclis is going to be a power build this time around but your right, he might be too good for normal games but it is a tactica thread, so I felt it bore mentioning.

Falkman
21-06-2010, 16:14
Or if you want both players to have a fun game.
You are of course correct, for fun games nothing else than common goblins and Lothern sea guard should be used.
:rolleyes:

Desert Rain
21-06-2010, 16:29
At the moment I'm thinking about taking an archmage and a BSB in my list in 8th edition, any ideas on builds for these? The archmage is the one that I'm most uncertain about, especially if you can't take both a scroll and another arcane item on the same guy.

For the BSB I will probably go with the tank build (AoC and GP) but I would like some ideas for the archmage. The list will mostly be infantry with a couple of chariots and perhaps some cavalry.

Kerill
21-06-2010, 17:07
You are of course correct, for fun games nothing else than common goblins and Lothern sea guard should be used.
:rolleyes:

Strawman argument at all? :rolleyes:

Thorek and Teclis make everyone's day.

Emeraldw
21-06-2010, 17:09
At the moment I'm thinking about taking an archmage and a BSB in my list in 8th edition, any ideas on builds for these? The archmage is the one that I'm most uncertain about, especially if you can't take both a scroll and another arcane item on the same guy.

For the BSB I will probably go with the tank build (AoC and GP) but I would like some ideas for the archmage. The list will mostly be infantry with a couple of chariots and perhaps some cavalry.

For Archmage, if your going to take a scroll. Take Sigil for a chance to get rid of a really annoying spell. Turning into a frog is funny to negate a wizard for bit, but destroying a spell like invocation? Priceless.

Since we can't load up on arcane items like before, Sacred incense would be a nice way to protect the unit your with. Would make the Phoenix Guard bunker even harder to drop.

Ring of Fury would be good too.

Maybe:

Archmage:
Sigil of Asuryan
Ring of Fury
Amulet of Fire

I would drop Amulet personally. Sigil and Ring works well enough. Add an Eagle depending on your preference but since it is harder to hide, being in a unit might be necessary and as such the Robe could be a good investment instead of Ring and Amulet.

Falkman
21-06-2010, 17:22
Strawman argument at all? :rolleyes:

Thorek and Teclis make everyone's day.
Not at all, merely a really stupid retort to your really stupid comment.
If you don't like Teclis that's fine, but assuming that people will never find a game funny just because he's included is really stupid.
Your fun =/= everyone elses fun.

Kerill
21-06-2010, 17:39
And your statement "no reason not to take Teclis" was similarly so. If you meant "if you want to WAAC, take Teclis" then fair enough.

If you want to take teclis go ahead.

11PD on average with the banner, 12 with the +1PD item or some channelling, choose lore of life.

Cast throne of vines with 4-6 dice, IF, ignore first miscast each turn (assuming he will be subject to miscasts for IF, if not then it gets even worse). Now you have a 2+ save against further miscasts. Hands of karkora opponents best unit with another 4/5 dice then re-raise a bunch of dead troops. Almost fullproof (apart from the raising since you will have fewer dice for it) and you can kill half a unit per turn with nothing your opponent can doing about it. Fun for them eh?

Of course if he is immune to miscasts when getting IF as some rumours believe then you can drop a comet of cassandora and chain lightning on them every turn with 5/6 dice. Or purple sun and fate of Bjuna on the general/lord caster then bsb etc. Just deploy on your back line, preferably on a hill so you can see everything and let the fun begin.

Teclis is cheesey in 7th, with the buffed lores in 8th, it really is only a WAAC choice.

Without teclis HE now have the second best magic in the game (after Lizardmen), maybe the best with the book of hoeth (and with doubles allowing you to choose spells reducing the main drawback of the book). You really don't think Teclis is OTT?

I have both the old and new Teclis models but wouldn't do that to anyone. If you want to, I can't stop you, I just wouldn't play against you.

HeroFox
21-06-2010, 17:56
Teclis is definitely not WAAC. Now that miscasts are insanely dangerous and every army has the frog and feedback scroll, people will think twice before bringing him to the table.

enyoss
21-06-2010, 19:33
Teclis is definitely not WAAC. Now that miscasts are insanely dangerous

This seems to be exactly why he is better this edition. He is immune to his first miscast, and rumours suggest that he gets Irresistable Force without the miscast on doubles other than double 6. Basically, miscasts become worse for everyone else, while probably not affecting Teclis that much at all. Couple that with the fact that scrolls appear to take up everyone elses' entire Arcane magic item slot, and it becomes clear that Teclis is way, way, ahead of the field.

CrystalSphere
21-06-2010, 19:38
If i have understood correctly, now you can take bound items more than one time per army? If that is the case i would take the ring of fury two times, one in a lvl2 with silver wand, and an archmage with the ring, seerstaff and maybe the sacred incense. Regardless of the ring with that setup you can have all the spell of a lore: you pick 4 with the archmage and 3 (2 plus the basic) with the mage. I think i will try that setup next time.

Punjoke
21-06-2010, 22:20
I think I am definitely going to try a Level 4 archmage with Lore of Life. It's just all-around great stuff and you can cast half of the Lore reliably on just two dice. Regeneration and Regrowth will preserve our high-cost few-in-number elite infantry, and extra Toughness will be great on any elf unit. Throw in Throne of Vines and everything gets stronger AND safer! Lore of Life is definitely my new favorite lore, and I think it will complement HEs very well.

Makoto00
21-06-2010, 23:48
Greetings,

I'm a new player to fantasy and looking at taking High Elves as my army. I have a basic understanding of the units but have not been able to really look at the other codices. What are the strengths of High Elves? How enjoyable are they to play?

Makoto

Allonairre
22-06-2010, 00:51
It is hard to say exactly what the strengths will be in the new edition, I know that the rules are out but most people don't yet have enough experience to say for certain what will and won't work.

I think that HE will be solid but their low Toughness will leave them relying alot on magic to survive combats.

I think their strength will be in bringing very balanced armies to the table, they aren't really able to dominate one particular phase (except perhaps magic with Teclis or Book of Hoeth). Good shooting (but lacking a template weapon will be a pain), Good combat with ASF but low toughness and armour and always being attacked back will make this tougher to survive. Great movement, but the random charges and less effective flanks makes this less important.

Just for future reference, 40K has Codices, Warhammer has army books.

Finally, I think it's best pick an army you like the feel of as a first army that makes it easier to stomach a few losses as everyone learns the new rules. Read some of the fluff in army books and see if you like it, then pick based on that rather than how competitive an army may or may not be or the playstyle it may or may not have.

Desert Rain
22-06-2010, 13:48
Greetings,

I'm a new player to fantasy and looking at taking High Elves as my army. I have a basic understanding of the units but have not been able to really look at the other codices. What are the strengths of High Elves? How enjoyable are they to play?

Makoto
High Elves have good infantry and cavalry as well as powerful magic. They have access to almost any type of unit in the game so you can build many different armies with them. It is hard to be more specific than that at the moment since we will have a new edition in just a few weeks.

SeaSwift
22-06-2010, 20:14
@ Kerill - saying firstly that WAAC = not fun, take a look at some of the tourneys out there; people seem to have fun there.

Secondly, Teclis is nowhere near WAAC - if he rolls a double 6 twice when casting in a turn then you are likely to suffer massive losses (not likely, I know, but for >400pts you wouldn't expect it to be), and he is just as vulnerable to Skirmishers/Fast Cavalry/Flyers as any other Mage. His weakness is obvious.

Lastly, this is a Tactics thread - if you want to whine about something being too good, please don't do it in the place where people find how to beat their opponents...

Prince Sairion
22-06-2010, 21:13
So just to confirm. . . Teclis is good, should you want to take him, but not everyone would, and some may even be upset to see him. Got it.

Moving away from characters slightly, I see with the new rules many an opportunity to take pretty decent anvil units, spears, Phoney Guard and even white lions with stubborn already there are nice options.

So what are you planning to take as hammer units?

SeaSwift
22-06-2010, 21:23
Hammer = Dragon Princes (not Swordmasters, they get shot to shreds); White Lions can do both Anvil and Hammer; and Lion Chariots (more than 1)

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 22:31
@ Kerill - saying firstly that WAAC = not fun, take a look at some of the tourneys out there; people seem to have fun there.

Secondly, Teclis is nowhere near WAAC - if he rolls a double 6 twice when casting in a turn then you are likely to suffer massive losses (not likely, I know, but for >400pts you wouldn't expect it to be), and he is just as vulnerable to Skirmishers/Fast Cavalry/Flyers as any other Mage. His weakness is obvious.

Lastly, this is a Tactics thread - if you want to whine about something being too good, please don't do it in the place where people find how to beat their opponents...

Teclis ignores the first miscast each TURN. And if I remember correctly, a miscast ends the magic phase for that caster anyways so Teclis is immune to miscasts essentially. This, imo, is the big reason he stands above others. The rest is just tasty, tasty gravy.


So just to confirm. . . Teclis is good, should you want to take him, but not everyone would, and some may even be upset to see him. Got it.

Moving away from characters slightly, I see with the new rules many an opportunity to take pretty decent anvil units, spears, Phoenix Guard and even white lions with stubborn already there are nice options.

So what are you planning to take as hammer units?

Tough call. I like infantry and always have so I have a lot of infantry in my lists. I don't usually use hammer units in 7th as I seem to always line up well enough to get 1 on 1 victories. And those I can't win, I either avoid or just hold up while I beat the rest of the army.

Dragon Princes certainly stand out as a good choice but without the ability to strip ranks I am unsure they will be what we need, while a unit of White Lions can do the same job, ignore woods and are stubborn themselves in case things go bad for you. Not to mention the tasty rerolls on str 6 (I am of the opinion they ASF, even without, they still hurt with 2 ranks).

Punjoke
23-06-2010, 04:35
Teclis ignores the first miscast each TURN. And if I remember correctly, a miscast ends the magic phase for that caster anyways so Teclis is immune to miscasts essentially

Miscasts only cause the wizard to roll on the miscast table. In fact, miscasts no longer even cause a spell to fail. A wizard can no longer cast any spells when he fails to cast a spell - meaning either he fails to reach its casting value, or some other spell or item forces it to fail (dispelling doesn't count as a failed spell.)

Allonairre
23-06-2010, 05:00
I think that the greatest loss that we will face in 8th will be to our control, over both movement and magic.

Drain Magic is far less effective at stopping spells if any caster can just pick up an extra dice, It will push the top spells out of range but the rest won't really be affected.

More than this our ability to use eagles, Reavers and Shadow Warriors to march block has always been a key element in my success. IMO we cannot deal with any army front on and all at once, it is crucial that we slow either one or both flanks to allow our smaller and more expensive units to carve through the enemy as it arrives, while our shooting and magic goes to work on the marchblocked elements.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to a way to make up for this, near as I can figure avoid the BSB and general with your march blockers (in that order) then trust to luck. The problem with this idea is that it takes the power away from us and puts it into their deployment, they can control where the re-rolls and good leadership are and so which units can be slowed.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this would be fantastic, this will not be a problem unique to our army but I feel that we rely more heavily on march-blocking etc than other armies where it is just a bonus.

TheSanityAssassin
23-06-2010, 05:35
Hmm...my High Elf force has always been intensely combat heavy, and hasn't really focused on march-blocking that much, other then stopping the occasional flanking heavy cav. Honestly, I think the quicker movement will often help us, as really we want to hit combat without taking too many shooting wounds against most things. And the more I test units out the more I seem to think that very little stands up effectively against our Elite infantry in drawn out combat. The kind of things that are likely to be in big hordes still don't average enough kills to wear us down....Empire Halberdiers come closest, and even they will die in such absurd droves.....

Emeraldw
23-06-2010, 05:49
Scouts also got a nice buff. They can be placed VERY close to the front line if your careful.

TheSanityAssassin
23-06-2010, 07:04
Yeah. A buddy of mine is talking about doing a scouting Horde of Dwarf Rangers and just cutting off the entire front battle line. Interesting concept.....

I still don't think those Shadow Warriors are going to hack it for their points level....

Casshole
23-06-2010, 07:35
My army hasnt changed too much, thought I will have to get a bsb on foot now.

I am still goin to employ Eltharion on Stormwing, 5+ ward on mount has saved soo many times and i really think of his as the most versatile elf char.

I will also throw in another level 2, with either my standard 7e seer staff and scroll or possibly annulian crystal and sumfin else if im nt concerned with spell selection (havent read all of lores yet)
Used to run a radiant gem bsb but it sounds like theres alot more reasons to kill him/keep him around now, probly either helm of luck and guardian pheonix.

also not sure about the maged chariot time will tell on that.

I wholeheartedly agree on the LSG being super awesome, I am happy when my block of 20 archers/spears are efficiently using the points, even if they are exspensive, on the same note a big block of PG because I am not convinced the sm/wl willl be as point efficient (survivability and portecting my bsb huge plus) and also the sm lose an attack at back rank so i would feel cheated :)

I am also of the opinion that RBT are best used sparingly, and will continue to run the LCs cause they are by far my fave mini in GW line up (next to that orc raider with the pig)

I came up with this neat lil combo- banner of sorc on the pg (the 50 points seem more worth it now) and the bound fire ball on the champ. if u have the extra pd (keep in mind im running to l 2s) fireball. brilliant.

Also gotta have the flaming banner on one of the LSG units. IT was a dream of mine ever since I found out the human archers get it (brets i think) and boy oh boy will u b laughing at that abomb when he plows into 20 flaming attacks (or whatever is left)

I liked dragon princes alot in the last edition but they are way to expensive for flankers and do not rank up as efficiently. Silverhelms, who I always thought as a pointless unit, now are a lil more feasible (probly not that much)

Shadow warriors are just pretty not good, and i dont have a good handle of the new skirmish rules yet but i am quite sure i wont use them, and the reavers are just not my cup of tea.

What do people think abotu using alith anar, since you can run him with another prince or a semi kitted level 3.

ScytheSwathe
23-06-2010, 10:01
Drain Magic is far less effective at stopping spells if any caster can just pick up an extra dice

On the contrary, drain magic is great. Limited power dice pool, and scary miscasts. People will be wanting to be quite stingy on dice. Unless its that critical spell, in which case, theyre probably aiming way over the casting value anyway.

What are peoples thoughts on chariot armies? No limits on numbers anymore, so you can quite easily take 11 in 2000 points. Along with some eagles, and mounted characters. Could be fun at the very least

GenerationTerrorist
23-06-2010, 12:19
How are people planning on fielding Spearmen/Archers/LSG blocks in larger (3000pts+) games?

I am unsure whether to go with 4 units of 15 or 2 units of 25 for my Spearmen. Anyone else thinking of taking Archers in units of 20?

ScytheSwathe
23-06-2010, 13:35
I currently try to run 3x 15 spearmen, and typically 10 or 20 archers

Thats likely to become 2x 24 spearmen and 1x 24 seaguard, or 24 spears, 2x 24 seaguard

NecronBob
23-06-2010, 14:29
I'm thinking of 1 x 29 spears with the AP banner and a cheap hero, 1 x 18 Seaguard with a fire attack banner, and 1 x10 archers to guard the bolt throwers.

I'm thinking with some of the buff spells, the AP banner could make spears very nasty, and seaguard with fire shots and spears could make life difficult for the regenerating creatures (that I see a lot of).

Desert Rain
23-06-2010, 15:57
I'm thinking of running 23 spears with a character full command an a banner as well as 10 archers and 13 Sea Guard with FC for core units. Mostly because those are the models that I will have available as painted for at least 7 months or so.

The 13 SG work quite well in this edition and they'll probably be a bit better in 8th. I plan to use them as a rear guard escorting a mage and shooting at stuff. They will protect the rear of the army from smaller unit that might move around the spears, SMs and WLs that form the main battle line.

Falkman
23-06-2010, 16:03
I'm thinking 24 spearmen with a cheap noble will provide a decent anchor in my line.
I'm planning on taking a lvl 2 mage with Seerstaff, so I can choose Okkam's mindrazor, should make those spearmen really nasty. Will complement with either a lvl 4 or Teclis with lore of life.

Haven't planned much farther than that, my High Elf army atm is just a bunch of painted stuff I got from a friend, but since 8th edition seems to be making them a really interesting army I'm thinking about expanding my collection.

ColShaw
23-06-2010, 16:52
In 7th Ed I used 24-strong Spear blocks, and expect to do the same in 8th. Being able to attack with EVERYONE, always striking first, and usually rerolling misses, makes for a solid unit.

Steel Legion for Life
23-06-2010, 17:00
Hmmm,

have read through the thread, and played a few games of the new edition now.

Obviously, we can't have this discussion in isolation of what other people are doing.

Last night, at my store's preview evening, I saw:

Units of 49 Orcs.
Units of 40 Stormvermin.
Units of 12 Minotaurs/Ogre Bulls.
And a unit of 60 Empire Greatswords.

With that sort of opposition, is a 25 man unit of spears going to be enough? I think lots of players are thinking in the 30-60 model range, and I'm not sure that ANY high elf unit can reliably beat that sort of unit.

I've been planning on using shooting & magic to really hang back and whittle things down, then only going in with infantry when supported by chariots, monsters, cavalry etc.

Lot's of our stuff can win combats - but cancelling stubborn from ranks is vital.

Things I've noticed:

I've been experimenting with 30 man White Lion, and they are pretty devastating, deployed 3x10, for thirty usually striking first S6 attacks - certainly amazing against the Minotaurs I played against.

Equally, units in this edition take lots of damage, even when they win combats. Usually, the opponent has a couple of full ranks fighting back, and that often decimates high elves - part of the reason I agree that Phoenix Guard have gone from the bottom of the pile of special units to near the top.

As far as I know, attacks can't be allocated any more - can't find it anywhere in the book - so Characters in units are far safer, especially BSBs, which makes all the high-point standards (especially the +d6 combat res banner) much more appealing.

Equally, I've been using a 10 man unit of Silverhelms (for flavour reasons, I know they were rubbish!) and have found that they're not THAT bad compared to Dragon princes - you know get a similar amount of attacks, because of the comparative price of 10 Silver helms with command, and the fact that the rear rank can fight. Of course, the Dragon Princes have the advantage of WS5 and re-rolling misses more often, but the extra cost of a rank means you're unlikely to have them.

Btw, my reading of the miscast rule is BAD for Teclis - the new Irresistible force miscast isn't prevented by his helm, because of the way the two rules are worded. So, as far as I can tell, he miscasts with every IF. Not hot. Of course, I could be wrong.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 17:52
Btw, my reading of the miscast rule is BAD for Teclis - the new Irresistible force miscast isn't prevented by his helm, because of the way the two rules are worded. So, as far as I can tell, he miscasts with every IF. Not hot. Of course, I could be wrong.

Fear not. There's 3 things involved when considering Teclis and miscasts in 8th Ed.

When a Wizard rolls 6s, he loses control, then he miscasts. Teclis only loses control on a roll of double 6, which then results in a miscast. If he rolls doubles on anything other than that, he's fine.. as long as he reaches his casting value.

Anyways, I think the way to do it is this:

Spears should be 5x6, 30 in Full Command. Gives us 4 ranks to fight and 10 bodies to pull, and steadfast because of all the ranks.

LSG should be 10x3 in deployment to shoot, and reform into spear formation, 5x6 when battle is approaching.

Phoenix Guard should be 6x5, 30 in Full Command to add ranks + give 13 attacks back each turn.

White Lions and Sword Masters should be 6x4, for 24 in Full Command. (personally, I wouldn't bother giving Sword Masters FC).

ColShaw
23-06-2010, 17:58
Last night, at my store's preview evening, I saw:

Units of 49 Orcs.
Units of 40 Stormvermin.
Units of 12 Minotaurs/Ogre Bulls.
And a unit of 60 Empire Greatswords.

With that sort of opposition, is a 25 man unit of spears going to be enough? I think lots of players are thinking in the 30-60 model range, and I'm not sure that ANY high elf unit can reliably beat that sort of unit.

True. However, one solution to fighting against a Horde is to multi-charge it with 2 of your own units in the front. And I'd take two 24-strong Spearelf units against most Horde formations. Even when charging, you're still fighting with the first 3 ranks now, and rerolling misses. You should kill 5-6 Orcs per regiment, not counting character attacks, even on the turn you charge, and that's pretty solid.

I'm not saying it's unbeatable, but moderate-size regiments aren't such a bad idea, I think.

Prince Sairion
23-06-2010, 21:22
Yeah see I'm buying into this whole 'big unit' idea, having only really played taster games and ran a few dice. 50 spears with command is 475 points, at 3k that's doable.

The trouble I see is that armies that go for horde will simply grind us elves down through numbers, as whilst we may kill more to start, as soon as we start losing attacks, there's still another large unit of enemy to come.

However I wouldn't be putting 60 greatswords in a single unit, 630 points is it?! Of men?! Don't be silly. More to the point, isn't that Ģ850 to buy or something close??

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 00:12
The problem with having units of 30+ models, or even 20+ in the case of elites, is that they cost so much that you can only have 2 of them. I personally don't want to loose the flexibility of having several units instead of just 2 big ones with some support. Hopefully my favoured playing style won't be completely destroyed by 8th.

Kerill
24-06-2010, 00:17
@ Kerill - saying firstly that WAAC = not fun, take a look at some of the tourneys out there; people seem to have fun there.

Secondly, Teclis is nowhere near WAAC - if he rolls a double 6 twice when casting in a turn then you are likely to suffer massive losses (not likely, I know, but for >400pts you wouldn't expect it to be), and he is just as vulnerable to Skirmishers/Fast Cavalry/Flyers as any other Mage. His weakness is obvious.

Lastly, this is a Tactics thread - if you want to whine about something being too good, please don't do it in the place where people find how to beat their opponents...

Rolling a double 6 twice is indeed highly unlikely. As for tactics, you will see in my post that I gave a tactic so even if he does roll double 6s twice or if the errata/FAQ will make him miscast on any double he can still ignore it 83% of the time.

I'll reiterate it:
Lore of life
Throw5 dice at throne of vines.
Now you have a 2+ save against any further miscasts and all your spells (except hands) are stronger.

Tactics don't have to just be about cheese though.

As for the horde units, if you do the maths, 30 spearmen will beat most hordes and take away their stubborn quite regularly. Against hordes, especially the more fighty ones, spearmen are point for point better than swordmasters- swordmasters can win almost every round but the casualties are too high and unless its a massive unit of SM your opponent will keep stubborn for a long time. Spears also have a narrower frontage so suffer fewer attacks from the hordes.

Makoto00
24-06-2010, 00:52
For the large horde type blocks, wouldn't that be a prime target for Flames of the Pheonix. That goes off on an 11+ which is doable on average from a lvl for caster on only 2 dice, 3 if you want to be sure.

If I read the Army book right, with the horde rule in play since elves normally get to fight in three ranks thanks to Martial Prowess, does that mean elves would get 4 ranks of attacks?

Longrunripper
24-06-2010, 01:05
Anyone else notice that the Banner of Arcane Protection on Phoenix Guard gives them a 2+ ward to magic?

Take Caradryan and that's a 1+...
Admittedly thats 150 points more expensive, but comes with all the other awesome stuff he comes with.

From I can tell, with the abundance of the hordes playstyle I am seeing (and to be honest, this is all hearsay, I haven't played WHFB in some time), Teclis with the Lore of Life is pretty gross. Ignoring all the other awesome stuff (e.g. 50 block of Spear men with a possible 5+ ward from another High Mage and +4 T from a Throned Stone Skin; Bringing Dragon Princes back to life etc), Teclis can, in a pinch throw as many power dice as he can at The Dwellers Below, aim for the Irresistible Force, ignoring the miscast, and statistically kill half a unit of S4 models.

The other thing I am seeing is the 130pt Great Fire Dragon/Mountain Chimera. Being able to take any lore we want, take a Level 1 High Mage, with the Seerstaff of Saphery (Don't know if the rules accommodate a power stone as well for 150pts) and choose Kadon's Transformation. If what I've read is correct/remembered, the PD cap on spells is higher than Mage level now. Throw everything you can at it. A miscast is only dangerous on a 1, which can remove the Mage from play. A strength 10 hit on T8 W8 models is no biggy, and if you lobotomise the Wizard, who cares, it's a dragon now.
I am aware that I could be very wrong on any number of counts, and that things may be changed (speaking of which, does anyone know the correct verb for creating an erratum?)

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 01:52
For the large horde type blocks, wouldn't that be a prime target for Flames of the Pheonix. That goes off on an 11+ which is doable on average from a lvl for caster on only 2 dice, 3 if you want to be sure.

If I read the Army book right, with the horde rule in play since elves normally get to fight in three ranks thanks to Martial Prowess, does that mean elves would get 4 ranks of attacks?

You definitely want THREE dice with a Lv.4 Wizard. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk losing concentration.

Horde rule, Spears and Martial Prowness means Spear Elves fight in FIVE ranks. Otherwise, they fight in 4s.

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-06-2010, 02:57
RBT are absoultley nerfed as well as D.Ps just for their point cost. I actually saw someone at the shop the other day play a UNIT IF SILVERHELMSSS!!! in 12 or so 5 wide. They went up against Empire Knights (not innercircle) and got crushed! Their miniscule attacks and killing ability cannont out match D.Ps.

I will still be taking my favorite unit with the Battle Banner BsB. 5 D.Ps with F.C and Ellyrion Banner can kill alot of things and with the champ accepting for the BsB (assuming you don't want to run another hero to accept challenges in the unit.) you should beyond well in the first round or so of combat.

The question remains what would you give heroes mounted then? A G.W/Halberd/Lance?

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 05:59
For the large horde type blocks, wouldn't that be a prime target for Flames of the Pheonix. That goes off on an 11+ which is doable on average from a lvl for caster on only 2 dice, 3 if you want to be sure.
High Magic in general will still be very useful since you can do so many things with it.

Drain Magic makes the enemy's spells harder to cast, and therefore require more dice to cast reliably.

Shield of Saphery makes our units more survivable against the return attacks that we will now have to get used to.

Curse of Arrow Attraction makes our already improved missile units even better.

Courage of Aenarion gives out battle line stubborn, which always is useful.

Fury of Khaine still kills things just as good as before.

Flames of the Phoenix gets a lot better since many will bring larger units.

Vaul's Unmaking is still an amazing spell since destroying magic items is always great.


And since you now get +1 to +5 (AM with SWS) to cast all the spells in the lore are easy to cast, so if you run an Archmage you might be able to cast every spell he has with a good amount of dice on each one, especially if you have the Banner of Sorcery.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 06:08
Why SWS when you can take Book of Ashur :)

+1 to cast and +1 to dispel is basically SWS and SoS on the same item for 10 points less.

Regardless, High Magic will still be our most balanced lore. 8+ Fury of Khaine, 11+ Flames of the Phoenix, and 12+ Vaul's Unmaking will be hallmarks of awesomeness. I don't think there's a spell in the game that matches those for cost effectiveness. (assuming the cast numbers don't change)

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 06:17
Why SWS when you can take Book of Ashur :)

+1 to cast and +1 to dispel is basically SWS and SoS on the same item for 10 points less.

Regardless, High Magic will still be our most balanced lore. 8+ Fury of Khaine, 11+ Flames of the Phoenix, and 12+ Vaul's Unmaking will be hallmarks of awesomeness. I don't think there's a spell in the game that matches those for cost effectiveness. (assuming the cast numbers don't change)
Yeah you're right, I'm not that familiar with all the new items yet ;)

An Archmage with Book of Ashur will be nice, with +5 to cast and +6 to dispel. If you take just him and the Banner of Sorcery you have 9PD at average. With High Magic being so easy to cast he will work nicely with that lore.

For BrB lores I think that I like Shadow and Heavens the most, Death has really nice internal synergy between the spells though.

Falkman
24-06-2010, 09:09
I definitely think Life and Shadow will be the way to go if you're not choosing High Magic.
Shadow works incredibly well with ASF Elves, since most spells either make you harder to kill, or the enemy easier to kill.

wamphyri101
24-06-2010, 09:33
Had my first game of 8th Ed last night to test some of the rules we know so far.

What I found was:

1: Lore of life is ace!
I had a level 2 with silver wand/scroll. I got the +2 toughness, regen 5+ and regrowth.

At one point my white lions were toughness 5 with regen!. couple of turns later they were down to half strength (got jumped by a block of 40 swordsmen + 20 halberdiers) and managed to get regrowth off on a 23, allowing me to get d6+1 back…and I rolled a 5!
Up popped 6 more white lions and ended up winning me the combat next round.
I think I will stick with support magic like this as its all too easy to get caught up in damage spells but I would rather back my expensive boys.

Magic though is fickle. On turn 1 and 3 I failed to cast my first spell meaning I couldn’t cast anymore. I was more worried also about using more dice in case I got the new dreaded double 6, which my opponent did and his 2 level 2 mages took a wound.



2: Sword master under perform.
They just didn’t cut it. As soon as they started to lose a couple of guys they just failed to cope with the stepping up rules. Think I’m going to drop them to umpf up my white lions and phoenix guard.

3: Phoenix guard: first time using them as I never really liked them, and they were good. Took volley gun twice, a steam tank steam burst and a volley from outriders, only losing 4 (in turn killing the stank and taking up most his shooting) will give these guys the AP banner in the future.

4: Seaguard
I love them. I took a unit of 28, unit of 10 and 2 units of archers.
Archers worked well as usual but the seaguard main unit just sat and shot anything near them and then reforming to take on a block of swordsmen. Supported by a bsb noble they just worked really well. I think I will bump them up to 30 and increase the 10 man group to 20 also. (Or make a big block of 50 for 700points like in the white dwarf…but when do they ever do decent lists)

5: Stardragon lord:
Was mental. The thunder stomp was never used as he just ripped through most stuff. Made him flank around the side and take down a mortar, then into a unit of halberdiers flank, then onto the volley gun before turning its eye on the mass unit of swordsmen. Never even got to use the new flame attacks

All in all the new ASF and I rules are awesome for high elves. The worry now is other armies like ogre kingdoms. They will now hit very very hard. I mean 15 ogre bulls can inflict 46 st4 attacks plus the impact and stomp hits. They with the large number of wounds means they could be a real problem!

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 09:52
I've been working a bit on my list for 8th edition and I'd really appreciate some input on it.
link to list (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4760813#post4760813)

Hannimar
24-06-2010, 10:33
High Magic in general will still be very useful since you can do so many things with it.


I thought that all Lores except Beasts and Skaven will change with the errata's to update them to 8th.

Makoto00
24-06-2010, 11:13
High Magic in general will still be very useful since you can do so many things with it.

Drain Magic makes the enemy's spells harder to cast, and therefore require more dice to cast reliably.

Shield of Saphery makes our units more survivable against the return attacks that we will now have to get used to.

Curse of Arrow Attraction makes our already improved missile units even better.

Courage of Aenarion gives out battle line stubborn, which always is useful.

Fury of Khaine still kills things just as good as before.

Flames of the Phoenix gets a lot better since many will bring larger units.

Vaul's Unmaking is still an amazing spell since destroying magic items is always great.


And since you now get +1 to +5 (AM with SWS) to cast all the spells in the lore are easy to cast, so if you run an Archmage you might be able to cast every spell he has with a good amount of dice on each one, especially if you have the Banner of Sorcery.

I can't remember from the main rule book, can we take say a Lvl 4 mage with High Magic, and then 2 lvl 2's with life magic?

Falkman
24-06-2010, 11:14
I thought that all Lores except Beasts and Skaven will change with the errata's to update them to 8th.
There is nothing that indicates such a thing will happen.
They might be, we don't know, but I find it highly unlikely since they're not invalidated by the new rules.
People keep expecting these FAQs to change all manner of balance issues, but afaik they will only address stuff that don't even work properly under the new rules (stuff like TKs magic, for example).
I remember when 6th switched to 7th and there was stuff that turned much worse (Beastmen ranking up comes to mind) and GW didn't care, they just said "tough luck, this is how the new rules work, we won't change your book" basically, so I don't expect them to give the 8th ed FAQs some kind of royal treatment either.


I can't remember from the main rule book, can we take say a Lvl 4 mage with High Magic, and then 2 lvl 2's with life magic?
Of course you can.

Hannimar
24-06-2010, 11:41
I know what yuo mean Falkman, I may have just read it somewhere on the forums.

I think that they will address the different lores as they are often too weak when compared to the basic 8 lores, also their casting values will be ridiculously easy to cast since you add the mages level to the casting roll. But anything may happen and it's only 2 weeks away or so :)

Arasaka
24-06-2010, 12:39
As much as I like the new rules for shooting and the attendant bonuses to the Sea Guard, I can't help but feel that this is a trap.

They're still S3 and won't do much damage after all the rolls to Hit, Wound, and Save have been factored in. Say you have 2 units of 20 arrayed 2x10. That's 40 shots, of which 20 will hit (at 13-24" range"), 10 will Wound (vs T3) and 6 will not get saved (assuming 5+ save). So, that's 40 shots for 6 - 7 casualties on average. Against Tougher/better armoured units, this already weaksauce result becomes even worse.

That, and I don't dare send in my non-missile capable units (DP's, Chariots etc) ahead and into the fray without support. Nor do I want them sitting back being whittled away by return fire and magic while the Seaguard plink away. Especially since most enemy army's shooting seems much better (DE Repeater X-bows, Dwarf and Empire HG's and arty)

As a a result, my inclination is to forget the shooting (Seaguard) and go full assault (Spearmen) and try to get into HtH quickly, hitting the flanks where possible with supporting units. This will of course be tricky due to the small size of the HE army.

I'm definitely looking forward to write-ups of HE vs DE/Dwarves/Empire confrontations once the book and FAQ are available. The theoryhammer is killing me (but in a good way - there's just a bit too much uncertainty).

Falkman
24-06-2010, 12:40
I think that they will address the different lores as they are often too weak when compared to the basic 8 lores, also their casting values will be ridiculously easy to cast since you add the mages level to the casting roll. But anything may happen and it's only 2 weeks away or so :)
Some of the armybook lores are weaker than the BRB ones, but as you say they are easier to cast to compensate.
High Elf magic for example is gonna be pretty nifty, Flames of the Phoenix on 7+, Vaul's unmaking on 8+ (with a lvl 4), that's good stuff right there.



They're still S3 and won't do much damage after all the rolls to Hit, Wound, and Save have been factored in. Say you have 2 units of 20 arrayed 2x10. That's 40 shots, of which 20 will hit (at 13-24" range"), 10 will Wound (vs T3) and 6 will not get saved (assuming 5+ save). So, that's 40 shots for 6 - 7 casualties on average. Against Tougher/better armoured units, this already weaksauce result becomes even worse.

That, and I don't dare send in my non-missile capable units (DP's, Chariots etc) ahead and into the fray without support. Nor do I want them sitting back being whittled away by return fire and magic while the Seaguard plink away. Especially since most enemy army's shooting seems much better (DE Repeater X-bows, Dwarf and Empire HG's and arty)
I haven't checked the BRB myself yet, but some of the spells in the rumour roundup definitely seems to buff HE shooting a fair bit.
Cast Flaming swords of Rhuin on your archers/Sea guard for +1 to wound and magical, flaming attacks.
Cast Enchanted blades of Aiban for +1 to hit, magical attacks and AP.
Cast Harmonic Convergence to allow your Archers to re-roll failed 1s when rolling to hit and wound.
Cast Curse of the Midnight wind to force your enemies to re-roll their 6s for armour saves.
Cast Plague of Rust or Transmutation of Lead on enemies to make them more likely to fail their saves.
Cast Withering or Soulblight on enemies to wound them easier.

All in all there are now a lot of spells that seem to augment our shooting, meaning that something that was bad in 7th might, with the help of some magic, be really nice in 8th.

Foxbat
24-06-2010, 13:04
I am also not so sure that LSG are they way to go at games above ~1700 pts as this is approx. the inflection point between a single unit of 28 LSG (FC, shields, and a 25 pt magic banner) and 28 Spears (FC and 25 pts magic banner) + 10 Archers.

While the LSG set-up will give you more bow shots, they are at a shorter range and if you go first they will have to move to shot losing the volley fire rule (that is IIRC). The Volley Rule, although helpful, just seems to make our LSG into defensive support blocks instead of offensive support blocks.

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 13:14
I'm not sold on Sea Guards either, but they are certainly a viable choice. The current draft of my list has a small (14) unit of them for supporting purposes.

On another subject, do you think that we can skip Lion Standard and Standard of Balance without much loss in 8th?
In my draft-list Every main unit has Ld9, from characters or on its own, and I have a BSB. All psych-tests will therefore get a re-roll, which at Ld9 should almost always result in a success. Dropping those 2 banners frees up 70 points, which gives my Archmage the Book of Ashur to boost my magic.

Falkman
24-06-2010, 13:54
Yep, the ItP (or similar) banners will be mostly useless if you have a BSB, at least if you plan to keep them within range most of the time.

Makoto00
24-06-2010, 14:29
I'm not sold on Sea Guards either, but they are certainly a viable choice. The current draft of my list has a small (14) unit of them for supporting purposes.

On another subject, do you think that we can skip Lion Standard and Standard of Balance without much loss in 8th?
In my draft-list Every main unit has Ld9, from characters or on its own, and I have a BSB. All psych-tests will therefore get a re-roll, which at Ld9 should almost always result in a success. Dropping those 2 banners frees up 70 points, which gives my Archmage the Book of Ashur to boost my magic.

I think I would rather have the longer range of the archers to whittle down the incoming troops. It doesn't help they don't have LSG models either.

wamphyri101
24-06-2010, 14:34
Banner of balance could still be good for hatred/frenzy nurf

Falkman
24-06-2010, 14:37
It doesn't help they don't have LSG models either.
There will be in September.

ColShaw
24-06-2010, 16:08
Caradryan has a 1+ Ward save vs. magic damage... whoa. And gives a 4+ Ward to any unit he joins (unless it's Phoenix Guard, in which case they're basically immune to damage-causing spells!)

I kinda liked the guy before. Now... I think I may have to be using him.

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 16:15
My thoughts on the Lore of Shadows and the High Elves


Smoke and Mirrors
After any spell resolution, the casting wizard can swap places with character of same troop type and same side within 18".
Not a great benefit when you compare to some other lores. Can be quite useful if you want to get you caster out of combat or into a better position for casting another spell.



0: melkoth's mystifying miasma - (Basic Spell)
48" range. Enemy target's BS, WS, I or M (pick one) is reduced by d3 until the start of the casters next magic phase: 5+
All four affected on a 10+
This spell is awesome. Reducing BS helps us against shooting, WS helps us in combat, I gives us our re-rolls even against really fast opponents and M helps us to achieve the superiority in the movement phase that we like so much. This spell also has good synergy with several other spells in the lore, which makes it even more useful.



1: steed of shadows
One character within 12", immediatelymakes a flying move: 5+
In contrast to Miasma this spell isn't that great, and unfortunately it is the basic one. I would never swap another spell for this one. It is useful for repositioning characters quickly when you need it. That fact that it is pretty similar to the lore benefit doesn't help it either.



2: enfeebling foe
Remains in play
18" range. Enemy target unit has S reduced by d3: 10+
36" on 13+
This is a great spell for us. One of our greatest weaknesses is out low T value, this spell makes up for that. By reducing their strength we take less wounds in return so our troops will live longer and thus kill more enemies. To bad that the old Lore of Heavens spell that gave you d3 re-rolls is gone:cries:



3: withering
Remains in play.
18" Range. Enemy target unit had -d3 T: 13+
36" on 16+
Just as good as Enfeebling Foe if not better. This spell makes our stronger units wounds almost everything on 2+ and a good chance for out spears to wound on 3+ or better. Since both this one and the previous one are remains in play our opponent needs to spend dice if he wants to get rid of it later, something that also helps our magic phase.



4: penumbral pendulum
6d6" line away from the caster. Each model hit must pass an I test or takes a S10 hit that does d3 wounds: 13+
Double distance for 18+
Very random spell that can be very useful for dealing with enemies with high T-values and multiple wounds. For example Ogres, Chariots and the like. Rips through knights and infantry very nicely as well. Notice the synergy between this spell and Miasma.



5: pit of shades
Range 24". Place a small template and scatters it d6". Anyone touched must take an I test or dies (no AS): 14+
Big template and scatters 2d6: 17+
This is a great unit killer spell, especially when you combine it with Miasma to reduce the I of the enemy. This is a spell that will devastate any unit that it hits, and the enemy knows it so he'll probably focus a great deal of dispelling power to stop it. Fortunately for us the other spells in the lore as really good as well, and if the enemy spends a lot of dice to stop this one we will have it easier to cast the other ones.



6: okkam's mind razor
18" Range. Target one friendly unit until the start of the casters next magic phase. The unit uses it’s Ld instead of S when rolling to wound: 18+
36" on 21+
The big bad spell of the Shadows lore. And for our army it is really a Big Bad. Spears attacking with 24 or so attacks at S8 anyone? Dragon Princes with S9 then? This makes our already powerful units even deadlier in CC than they already are, but it is hard to cast with the weaker variety of it requiring an 18+ to cast which means 5 PD if you want to be sure of it with an archmage. The spell also looses some appeal when fighting low armoured opponents since the spell Withering gives you basically the same result against them.

Overall I believe that Lore of Shadows is one of the better ones for our army. Every spell, except for steed of shadows, greatly boosts the performance of our army. This is not the lore for those of you who like to wreak the enemy with spells that cause massive damage, it is a more subtle one but it will still make your army very deadly.

Makoto00
24-06-2010, 16:45
Caradryan has a 1+ Ward save vs. magic damage... whoa. And gives a 4+ Ward to any unit he joins (unless it's Phoenix Guard, in which case they're basically immune to damage-causing spells!)

I kinda liked the guy before. Now... I think I may have to be using him.

I don't have my book in front of me. How does he do that? Might be something I missed in the 8th Ed book.

Foxbat
24-06-2010, 16:47
On another subject, do you think that we can skip Lion Standard and Standard of Balance without much loss in 8th?
In my draft-list Every main unit has Ld9, from characters or on its own, and I have a BSB. All psych-tests will therefore get a re-roll, which at Ld9 should almost always result in a success. Dropping those 2 banners frees up 70 points, which gives my Archmage the Book of Ashur to boost my magic.I think dropping the Lion Std is likely not that bad of an idea when you have a BSB. It may be more interesting though to give the WL the Banner of Discipline and put the BSB in that unit. Does anyone know if the WL will be able to use the BSB’s Ld 10 (after being adjusted by the banner) for shooting tests?

As for Standard of Balance I am less certain about dropping it. While the BSB will allow re-rolls on Ld tests, stopping frenzy and hatred is worth a lot to the SM when they get into close combat. I would likely keep it for now, but it is worth further investigation.

Falkman
24-06-2010, 17:02
In contrast to Miasma this spell isn't that great, and unfortunately it is the basic one. I would never swap another spell for this one.
Well you don't have to, Miasma is the spell you swap to.

ColShaw
24-06-2010, 17:06
I don't have my book in front of me. How does he do that? Might be something I missed in the 8th Ed book.

He has MR3, which in 8th means +3 to his Ward save against magic damage. Since he's got a 4+ Ward already...

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 17:18
He has MR3, which in 8th means +3 to his Ward save against magic damage. Since he's got a 4+ Ward already...

Who I would put with White Lions since Phoenix Guard already have a 4+ ward vs. Magic. This would give both units a 4+ save.. which basically cuts their magic effeciency by half they have it.

ColShaw
24-06-2010, 17:58
Who I would put with White Lions since Phoenix Guard already have a 4+ ward vs. Magic. This would give both units a 4+ save.. which basically cuts their magic effeciency by half they have it.

Agreed, Caradryan has never been as useful among his fellow Phoenix Guard as he has been elsewhere :wtf:.

I think he'd be solid hanging out with Spearmen, too.

Desert Rain
24-06-2010, 18:08
Well you don't have to, Miasma is the spell you swap to.
Really? That's good then :D
Always swap Steed of Shadows for Miasma then.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 18:08
Banner of Arcane Protection on one of our Spears/LSG will give them a 5+ ward vs Magic since they have First Among Equals :D

Being able to resist enemy magic damage one way or another is pretty awesome :) Likewise, you can throw that banner on your Phoneix Guard for a wtf'ing 2+ ward vs mags.

Edit: I'd also like to mention that Shield of Saphery gives a 5+ Ward. 5+ Ward and MR2 gives you a 3+ Ward vs. Magic :-D

Longrunripper
24-06-2010, 20:15
If it wasn't such a massive cock slap to our own buffing ability, the Banner of the World Dragon could go far to protecting a large unit from enemy spells, considering the pendulum/pit of shades/dwellers below/fires of the pheonix/new wall of fire etc. shenanigans.

Lord Shadowheart
25-06-2010, 00:05
Overall I believe that Lore of Shadows is one of the better ones for our army. Every spell, except for steed of shadows, greatly boosts the performance of our army. This is not the lore for those of you who like to wreak the enemy with spells that cause massive damage, it is a more subtle one but it will still make your army very deadly.

I've gotta agree with this, my High Elf army is largely themed around shadows, having a really dark colour scheme (so dark they frequently get mistaken for dark elves :D) and I tend to try to only use the lroes of Death and Shadow at the moment to keep the army in character, so I'm rather looking forward to messing about with their new versions :)

Wednesday Friday Addams
25-06-2010, 05:48
Just starting high elves (A big step for a Druchii player) and I put Korhil in a lion chariot because it looked awesome. Question is would that actually be worth doing?

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 05:57
Just starting high elves (A big step for a Druchii player) and I put Korhil in a lion chariot because it looked awesome. Question is would that actually be worth doing?

It's a T4 Chariot with a 4+ save and 4 wounds.

I'll let you decide that one :-D

Trains_Get_Robbed
25-06-2010, 07:02
One of the biggest questions I see coming up is: to take a hero/lord -when mounted- with a GW, lance or cheap magic item? I see foebane (my 2nd fav magic item) being used more often.

Sinsigel
25-06-2010, 07:07
One of the biggest questions I see coming up is: to take a hero/lord -when mounted- with a GW, lance or cheap magic item? I see foebane (my 2nd fav magic item) being used more often.

If high elves still retain ASF even with great weapons, I strongly recommend taking GW. Consistent ASF S6 that leaves 100pts worth magic items free is definitely good.

Allonairre
25-06-2010, 08:26
The Great weapon thing still being up in the air means it is too early to say. I won't take a great weapon if it means losing the re-rolls to hit, that is too good to pass up in my opinion.

Desert Rain
25-06-2010, 11:02
Nice article HeroFox :)
It is to bad that you can't just pick the lore before the game anymore. Not a problem for those of you who don't play at clubs, but for us that do it is a bit annoying.
I'll probably use Lore of Shadows most of the time since it is my fvourite, and then High Magic on the support caster for Drain Magic and another spell.

Falkman
25-06-2010, 11:15
Nice article HeroFox :)
It is to bad that you can't just pick the lore before the game anymore. Not a problem for those of you who don't play at clubs, but for us that do it is a bit annoying.
I like it, means it's more of a tactical decision than just "which lore steamrolls this army the best?".

Artinam
25-06-2010, 11:20
So this rule is confirmed? Excellent.

Makoto00
25-06-2010, 16:30
Excellent articles HeroFox, very useful. I'm very partial to using High Magic and Life. I may have to play around with some of the other lores after reading your articles.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 17:08
I will be getting to either the list building or the strategy portion today.

Arkh
25-06-2010, 17:48
Anybody else considering the flying circus HE army?

-Lord on Dragon or Archmage on Eagle
-Heroes on Eagles gain 2 S4 attacks + an additional wound. AND the eagle can no longer be cut out from underneath the noble.
-Potential elite army rule for mobs of eagles in rares.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 17:58
Anyone else see that cannon if the far out dista....... BOOM! POW!

AHHH for the love of God!!!! Cannons that do D6 wounds, has TLoS and no guess range!!!

splat.

TheSanityAssassin
25-06-2010, 18:17
Hmm, nice magic article! I kinda like the new way of choosing lores on list (though I think it's fluffier for Empire than Elves of any kind, who are assumed to KNOW all the lores and not just one). I've always preferred to use buff magic to "pick the lore that = win vs certain army", and I think 8th magic will be great for that....it's a big risk picking something like Metal now unless you know your meta is all Chaos Warriors, Brets and Dwarfs. Life or Shadow for me...probably stick with Shadow, given that that's what my Archmage used 75% of the time in 7th, and he's painted up kinda...sinister.

Makoto00
26-06-2010, 03:51
Is it worth sticking a Flame Banner on your LSG? I can see it working against Cav, Chariots and things that regen. Do you see a lot of those units?

Longrunripper
26-06-2010, 04:07
I've been told that my club tends to play 3000 points a lot, so I'm looking at Teclis (when special chars are allowed) and an Archmage.
In terms of points viability, 2 Archmages works out better, since with Teclis, I'm only getting 50 points of 'stuff' on the AM. With the expanded Common Magic Items, there's more choice for kitting out 2 Archmages.
Either way, it boils down to sapping strength with Lore of Shadow and Dwellers Bellow.

If the expectant 30-60 block of xyz is to be expected, I think Elves will have to look to Magic for solutions, and as we have seen, the Lores of Shadow, Life and High Magic all have the spells for the Job.

As for Teclis being 'unsportsmanly' we still see people dropping Thorek and the Anvil and dual Steam Tanks on the table. Depending on the local meta (which is really important), we will have to give as good as we get.

As for the Lores decision when the list is built, I just don't get it. I get it for a tournament, when a list is fixed. But even in a club environment, we tend to knock a list together before the game anyway. It makes sense that Elves will pick the best Wizard for the job, or just deploy wizards with 'knowlege' of multiple lores.
The idea that the wizard in that list only knows the Lore of say, Life, is a bit baffling, since we still roll spells randomly. Suddenly from game to game, our wizards are forgetting spells and picking up new ones.
I even buy the rationalisation "Is that an army of chaos northmen yonder on the Horizon? Dave, go brush up on your Lore or Metal."

As with Tournaments, however, I can see the logic behind locked lores in campaigns, so long as that wizard survives. But that's a different kettle of fish.

Siphon
26-06-2010, 05:19
So am I correct in understanding the new magic resistance rules, that for each point of magic resistance a model has they get a +1 ward save?

And this ward save only works on magic damage? Does this include damage done with magic weapons?

If this is so, does that mean Caradryan suddenly became the best challenger in the game since he would have a ward save of +1 vs magic weapons and would effectively be immune to damage from "almost" every hero/lord?

Also, Caradryan and PG working as a bunker for an Archmage. Who really cares about a S10 miscast when the entire unit has a 1+ ward save vs magic?

Am I missing something or is Caradryan really going to be this good?

Amornar
26-06-2010, 05:21
A ward save against magic is not the same as a ward save against a magical weapon.

Siphon
26-06-2010, 05:22
I was just asking. I thought I saw someone mention it before in the thread and thought it sounded a little crazy. I'm still curious though for anyone who has read the new rules.

HeroFox
26-06-2010, 05:49
Caradryan was always good. He's now a little better because of his MR giving units Ward saves vs. magic.

Longrunripper
26-06-2010, 05:54
I was just asking. I thought I saw someone mention it before in the thread and thought it sounded a little crazy. I'm still curious though for anyone who has read the new rules.

The following is speculation and pieced together from my fairly terrible memory...

Magic Resistance doesn't affect Magic Weaponry.
Neither, does it count against Miscast results.
I have an inkling, from what has been said, that whilst, yes, Caradryan in a unit of Phoenix Guard have a 1+ ward including his Magic Resistance, it only applies to direct damage spells. Hexs and the like ignore this as well.

Again, this is off the top of my head.

After reading HeroFox's write-ups, I really am in a rut to decide what Lores to use. Maybe I should only play 5000 point games and take 5 Archmages...

TheSanityAssassin
26-06-2010, 06:26
In conjunction with picking lores on the list...fluff states that every High Elf mage who is able to work with High Magic (IE...all of them we can take barring Eltharion) have already mastered all 8 lores to the point that they're second nature.

I would love to see Elf mages cost more and Empire ones be cheaper, but have us able to pick our lore at the start of battle and the humans do so on the list. This would go for Dark and Wood Elves as well. Oh and Slaan of course. How does this work for Teclis? It states he knows every spell from whatever lore he wants.....do you have to put down "Teclis, Lore of Shadow" still on your list?

Allonairre
26-06-2010, 07:19
Anyone else see that cannon if the far out dista....... BOOM! POW!

AHHH for the love of God!!!! Cannons that do D6 wounds, has TLoS and no guess range!!!

splat.

True Line of sight will be murder on Great Eagles, they are very easy to see on a table since they are usually elevated. I hope I don't see people mounting them flat so they can hide behind infantry.

Von Wibble
26-06-2010, 12:14
Well, here's roughly what I'd go for at 2500 points.

Without a full knowledge of item prices its hard to comment on character loadouts so I will be general on that

Note that I have always considered the RBT to be virtually useless and only rarely take them (generally only vs beasts and daemons), so none of those in my list!

I would take about 700 points on characters. I would go for quality over quantity, and the only compulsory addition would imo be a BSB. I wuold expect that's 4 characters and a total of 3-5 levels of magic

For Core - 2 x 24 LSG comes to 674, which is just over the 25% requirement. Alternatively, 2 x 24 spears and 2 x 10 archers, with banners on the archers (for objective purposes) - more men, units and banners but costs more points at 722.

For rare its 2 great eagles.

That leaves about 1000 points on specials.

Silver Helms have become a lot better. A unit of 11 with full command and armour (one character goes here) can be bought for under 300 points, and hits nearly as hard per point as an equivalently priced DP unit - but can take a lot more damage! Alternatively 2 5 man dragon prince units with no command are about the same price and more flexible - but they won't break ranks.

2 Tiranoc chariots for sure - nice cheap killmakers to back the spearmen. Considering this is only slightly more than the cost of 1 lion chariot its only the slot system that held these back.

For 500 points I can get 2 smallish elite units. A lot of enemy units that do well against spearmen seem to fare poorly against the likes of swordmasters so I think a mix of unit types is going to be very helpful. Any 2 of the 3 units would be sensible imo - I'd need to play some games to decide which.

Chances are this leaves me some pocket change with which to get either a magic banner or 2, a third chariot, or a small unit of reavers (war machine hunters).

For my magic lore I like supporting magic so would probably go with shadows, high, metal or life.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-06-2010, 06:59
Tried to post yesterday from ipod but just didn't work. :/

Personally I don't see the need for more than 1 to spell casters, as anymore is a waste of points that can easliy be soaked up by Bsb and heroes/lords. A max of 12pd a turn isn't enough to justify using more then two wizards as in most cases the average pd amount will be 7-8 and give roughly 2-4 spell attempts (if you play right). Taking say a AM and a another Lvl 2 in case he fails should be all anyone is thinking.

The BoS is a must in every game I play and should be now for all HE players. It will add pd to your turn every phase for cheap and can be a nice little bonus for tyour caster(s) that would like to try for combination-spells that would routniuley cost 3 or 4 pd or those Rip that cost 3 or 4 pd. In doing this you can kit your mages out to survive (wards anyone?)/dispell with certainty ("yeah I have a +6 dispell, whatevs").

I'm going to propose yet another mandatory unit I take every game (its my fav) -D.Ps- and why their effiency shouldn't be overlooked for ten or so pedestrian rank-breakin S.H. Usually run them 5 wide with Ellyrion banner and or a Bsb with the B.Banner. If I do run the BsB then I run a champ to accept challenges from units (magic items if any are up to taste).

This unit wreaks anyhting it hits in 7th thats not Stubborn or Unbreakable and could possibly still in 8th. Hitting something in the flank with these guys is going to be perfect for combo charges making (my underperforming spearmen) not suck so much in combat. The D.Ps hit a flank and get +2 CR and kill the rank(s) off of whatever they hit. The spears hit the front take away stubborn from the unit and also add in a few kills after combat ends the your spears will act as a null to their unit and your D.Ps will be adding +2 + D6 CR making whatever they hit (with no steadfast) run.
Also with the Ellyrion banner on these guys they can now charge out of a forest with even more ease and create the perfect quarter threat that will make your oppenet stay away from the terrain piece they are in (woods, march, etc. . .). Plus the look on your opponets face (7th "no M penalty?" and 8th "no terrain detremients?") is priceless when you crash your D.Ps into a flank of Bloodletters/Saurus/Stormvermin.

However, if there is an option to take another banner that adds D3? To our eleves in combat that should be looked into deeply as finding CR in an expensive fragile army is really hard to do. Kind of like water at a baseball game. :(

(Perhaps give a unit of P.G the D6 banner or D3 banner and run the other on the D.Ps? Remember this option is still more viable than 10 D.Ps a huge point sink that will not break ranks if a SINGLE elf is lost. :()

Nathaniel
27-06-2010, 08:10
True Line of sight will be murder on Great Eagles, they are very easy to see on a table since they are usually elevated. I hope I don't see people mounting them flat so they can hide behind infantry.

Maybe not behind infantry but I'd like to be able to put my eagle behind a forest and have the option of not being seen.

Desert Rain
27-06-2010, 10:29
Personally I don't see the need for more than 1 to spell casters, as anymore is a waste of points that can easliy be soaked up by Bsb and heroes/lords. A max of 12pd a turn isn't enough to justify using more then two wizards as in most cases the average pd amount will be 7-8 and give roughly 2-4 spell attempts (if you play right). Taking say a AM and a another Lvl 2 in case he fails should be all anyone is thinking.
At first I thought about just a single AM as my caster. The problem with that is that if you fail to cast a spell and still have dice left you loose all of them. If you have a cheap L.1 you can still use them to cast a spell or two, thus don't wasting precious dice.

Allonairre
27-06-2010, 10:44
For casters I am still thinking that L4 and a L2 with seer staff for support, and to drain dice will be a good bet. This also gives reliable access to more than 1 lore which will be a good thing.

Makoto00
27-06-2010, 14:26
For casters I am still thinking that L4 and a L2 with seer staff for support, and to drain dice will be a good bet. This also gives reliable access to more than 1 lore which will be a good thing.

This is what I was thinking as well. I wouldn't go more than 2 mages. Odds are no matter how many PD you have, between a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2 you will use them all. I might take Lvl 4 AM with Annulian Crystal + Dispel Scroll, Lvl 2 with Silver Wand + Seerstaff of Saphery

For 2000+ games Teclis is tempting with a lvl 2 for backup. The lore for teclis might be shadow and put High Magic on my Lvl 2.

Arkh
27-06-2010, 16:50
This is what I was thinking as well. I wouldn't go more than 2 mages. Odds are no matter how many PD you have, between a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2 you will use them all. I might take Lvl 4 AM with Annulian Crystal + Dispel Scroll, Lvl 2 with Silver Wand + Seerstaff of Saphery

For 2000+ games Teclis is tempting with a lvl 2 for backup. The lore for teclis might be shadow and put High Magic on my Lvl 2.

Your lvl 2 build is definitely illegal, and I believe your lvl 4 build is illegal in 8th as well.

You can't choose 2 magic items from the same genre on the same character. In other words, both of your characters have 2 arcane items and that is not allowed. In 7th edition, you were allowed to take power stones or dispel scrolls in addition to other arcane items, but IIRC that is no longer the case in 8th.

Another point of interest. The seerstaff is not as good as it used to be. In 8th edition, if your mage is capable of picking his spells, he has to do so when you build the roster. So your lvl 2 mage with the the seerstaff can only ever have the two spells you chose when you built the roster.

Makoto00
27-06-2010, 19:52
Your lvl 2 build is definitely illegal, and I believe your lvl 4 build is illegal in 8th as well.

You can't choose 2 magic items from the same genre on the same character. In other words, both of your characters have 2 arcane items and that is not allowed. In 7th edition, you were allowed to take power stones or dispel scrolls in addition to other arcane items, but IIRC that is no longer the case in 8th.

Another point of interest. The seerstaff is not as good as it used to be. In 8th edition, if your mage is capable of picking his spells, he has to do so when you build the roster. So your lvl 2 mage with the the seerstaff can only ever have the two spells you chose when you built the roster.

Ah I see. What would you consider a good build for a Lvl 4 Archmage and Lvl 2 Supporting Mage? The Annulian Crystal seems very useful. I see what your talking about with Seerstaff not being as good anymore.

HeroFox
27-06-2010, 20:06
Book of Ashur on the Lv.4 and Seerstaff on the Lv.2 (for offense) or Annulian Crystal (for defense).

See my sig for a more detailed description.

Makoto00
27-06-2010, 20:14
Book of Ashur on the Lv.4 and Seerstaff on the Lv.2 (for offense) or Annulian Crystal (for defense).

See my sig for a more detailed description.

Ah, thank you.

Lathaon
27-06-2010, 20:37
The Annulian Crystal sort of works for offence as well if you have RiP spells. At least if those can still be dispelled with power dice in 8th. I'm starting to think that if you have a L4 and L2, it might be best to give the L2 the crystal because most spells should be cast by the L4 to maximise the benefit of the casting bonus.

I'd also argue that the Trickster's Pendant could be a decent option because miscasts got nastier and potentially more frequent if lots of people decide that throwing 6 dice at spells is a good idea...