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Slacker
28-05-2010, 10:00
Okay, well, I'm stuck at work at 4:30 with internet access and very little to do. I've been reading pretty much everything that's been solidly reported on so far and what little's been out and out confirmed, and was playing around with my Empire army book.

There are a couple of assumptions I've made the purposes of sanity, and I'll reference them as we go along. My first general assumption is that games are going to wind up at 3K. Either by design or by natural evolution. What that's going to do to the tournament scene is going to be...interesting, but since when does GW actually care about the tourney scene.

That means the numbers we're playing with are 750 @ 25% and 1500 @ 50%. As we'll see, I won't approach anywhere near that 1500 points we've got set aside for special choices.

Big blocks of infantry seem to be, well, amazing in the new book. 9 man detachments are out the window, the entire point of that small, tight formation of swordsmen or free company was to break ranks and rumors seem to confirm that you're going to need ranks of your own in order to bust the enemy's with your detachments.

With this in mind, I've gone back to the drawing board for core selection, reasoning at this point cost going by the fluff presented in the Empire heraldry book actually isn't a bad way to go. Halberd regiments are presented as being 40 man blocks, and this might well be a good way to go in the new edition. You'll get the outnumber bonus, and as a result be stubborn, for a good long time. I'm not sure if shields are a good investment for halbs now or not, that may well depend on how things shake out.

Built around this ginormous (wow, that's not flashing my spell check, really?) block of dudes are two smaller blocks of dudes. Take a regiment of 20 swordsmen and throw them on the flank, boom. Your second detachment is a unit of handgunners, which according to rumor will be able to fire both ranks.

It's perhaps no coincidence that two such units, assuming the Halbs have shields, works out to around 800 points. Core taken care of, or, if not, take a unit of knights or something. Done.

Another rumor that seems to be gaining traction is that your lord, on a large target, gains an 18" leadership bubble instead of the old 12". This makes, sad to say, the Arch-Lector on the War Altar beyond a no-brainer. Already the best Lord choice by far in the book, the leadership buff is tremendous, if it's true. Figure you tool him up a bit-I don't see him as a line breaker in this edition, I would think it'll be best employed as a counter-charge unit in support of your big pair of blocks. This is a bit more tenuous in my head as a plan when compared to the 'wall of mans' for Core, but we're looking at a 325ish point Lord which eats a bit under half of your character allotment. Now, if the percentages are actually 50% characters, 25% Lord and 25% Hero, then my concern goes completely out the window, as you take the AL for your general and spam cheap heroes if you want to play herohammer.

I'm not sure on mages for the new edition, but two level 2s with a bit of equipment and a BSB (still probably useful for leadership-low Empire in the new edition, also Griffon Standard), you've filled a 25% character allotment.

Assuming the anti-spam ruling prohibits more than 2 or 3 of a single choice in specials or rares, you're looking now at 2 Great Cannons and 2 Mortars. I'm sorry, these are pretty much no-brainers now. I would take a unit of Greatswords, because I like them and they still form a bit of a bunker unit, but they're probably not the power selection to dump 250-ish points. I'm not sure detachments are a good choice for them any more, as to make them a big enough unit for the detachments to be worth it would be prohibitive points wise. As opposed to holding the center of the line these guys might find better service holding a flank on their own and tying up the enemy. Outriders may also be a good way to go, and two units with their machine guns are going to run you a little less than 250. Either way, we're looking at considerably less than 1000 points in specials, well under the 50% margin.

We move onto rares. Double stanks become a total option for those so inclined, at 600 points under the 25% margin by a good bit. Hell, you even have room for a Hellblaster. I'm thinking 1 steam tank, 1 hellblaster, for now, for math purposes.

So, we'll assume 800 points on core, 750 on characters, 1000 for specials and 400 (really, 410, but eh) on rare. That's just short of 3K. There are certainly ways to change this up-you could go more of a hammer, take two steam tanks, smaller blocks and go with big units of knights, give they'll still be able to march. I don't see how any Lord choice is better than war altar arch lector combo-the griffon is still going to die to a wet fart, and I can't imagine the AL/WA's combination of bound spells is going to useless. You could go wizard lord/battle wizard spam if that works, I suppose.

You could go almost all gunline, but that would be flat out unfun. If you want to be fluffy, you drop the steam tank. A unit of flagellants is an option, and with an arch lector would actually boost your core percentage. I'm not sure how awesome unbreakable units would be but let' be fair it's unlikely they're going to suck.

I realize this is mostly idle brain candy at this point, but if nothing else having a couple of weeks of discussion along these lines could get us thinking when the book does come out.

RanaldLoec
28-05-2010, 14:42
I agree with a lot of your points but personally I'm not going to take my infantry blocks bigger than 40 more likely 30 strong. Yes the arch lector is always the best of both he supports your battle line and provides magic defense and some offensive.

I find 2 steam tanks rather unfriendly I like my opponents to enjoy a game and want to play me again plus fluff wise there where only 12 orginal steam tanks and there are only 8 left working so unless its s massive 6 or 7k game with me fielding Karl franz on a dragon I won't field my stank.

Just because I like to stick to the fluff when building an army list it adds more character to the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
28-05-2010, 15:55
I'd like to address a few points: First of all, outnumber - this is gone and no criterion for steadfast, as the new stubborn will apparently be called.

Secondly, you cannot count on being steadfast that much. As I understand it, you're tied and neither will be steadfast as long as your opponent has a rank bonus of 3 as well.

I also highly doubt that games will be played at 3k all of a sudden. The desire to field another unit or to take another item is certainly there already and this decision is up to the players and groups. I'm personally more counting on 2250 or perhaps 2.5k. If that is the case, I'm probably going to stick with 30 men per parent unit and less in the case of Flaggies, missile units and GS.

Thirdly, as long as you want to take some special and rare and field 2-3 largish units with sizeable detachments, hero spamming won't be possible. Captains might be cheap enough but WP for example...nah.

Malorian
28-05-2010, 18:02
With the new rules I'm starting to think that parnet blocks of 26 and detachments of 13 are the way to go.

Slacker
28-05-2010, 19:33
That might be well a way to go about things...I'd probably just round it out to 30 for the purposes of sanity.

I wouldn't normally use two steam tanks, but you have to admit the possibility is easily there and if we're rocking at 3k it's rather easy to go down that road.

Plexus-note that proposed list doesn't spam heroes.

I guess what really depends is how the outnumber rules and the extra rank rules work out. That'll help determine how big to make our infantry blocks.

Our detachments not causing panic is a bit nerfed with the way they changed panic rules.

Is it me now, or does a level 4 make much more sense than two level 2s for dispel/magic defense purposes? I'm guessing the Arch Lector may well count as a level 4 (or maybe a level 3) for dispel purposes, making things even easier if you want to go completely without wizards.

Item wise, I think the Shroud of Magnus is going to be even more attractive now with how they've changed MR and ward saves.

Thoughts?

Von Wibble
28-05-2010, 21:15
With the new rules I'm starting to think that parnet blocks of 26 and detachments of 13 are the way to go.

That's an interesting choice of number - any reason?

My own blocks tend to be 30 with detachments of 9. However, I think those detachments wil increase in size to 15.

My thoughts on what will change in empire armies

I think the captain with full plate, shield, and possible cheap magic weapon will be a useful addition.

A BSB will be mandatory for the panic reroll.

Warrior priest leading 11 White Wolf Knights makes a nice hammer - not too pricy and nice and durable.

Greatswords and flagellants are units that can be nasty with the horde rule. Blocks of 30 may be expensive but they will do a lot of damage - again a warrior priest for the greatswords. Yes, I know Flaggies are max 25 - its still an extra 10 attacks though.

Archers main use was that they could all target something. Now fire in ranks is in I think these guys will be a rarity on the battlefield.

Otoh deploying handguns and crossbows became a lot easier. I think I will intentionally take no more than 40 total in any game 3000 or below. Its not really fair on the enemy otherwise!

Pistoliers - longer range and free move at the start. Actually, that free move will benefit outriders even more, making them excellent flank guards (ie flanks of the table in scenarios where enemies come on frmo the edge).

All in all empire are imo one of 3 armies that gani the most from this edition (high elves and dwarfs are the other 2). About the only thing missing is something making the engineer a viable choice. 10 pigeon bombs/turn anyone?

Slacker
28-05-2010, 23:24
The fact that I'm not capped on character selections means if I skip on wizards entirely, a 60 point engineer isn't a bad idea with four or five war machines.

I'm personally inclined, if an Arch Lector counts as a level 3 or 4 for dispell purposes, to just skip offensive magic entirely and go with an AL, another warrior priest, a BSB and maybe a couple of cheap other heroes-a captain, an engineer, etc.

That's the key, though. An AL on a WA, if he dispels as a level 3 or 4, would just make that selection exceptional in the new book. *eyes war altar model he still hasn't assembled*

My Huntsmen are probably going the way of the dodo. I can definitely see a unit of crossbows or more handguns taking their place.

Walls
29-05-2010, 03:13
Guns don't fire in two ranks, only bows. As far as I understand.

I also don't think it's going to 3000. That was giant wishlisting when the strict character %s were being bandied about so people could still take them.

I am still thinking units of 30. Shooting detachments of 5 guns or 10 xbows and 10 man combat detachments.

Clymer
29-05-2010, 03:41
I like the idea of huge blocks of infantry like early modern tercios... I wonder though how to fit 2 units, 10 wide plus detachments of 20 swords and 10 handgunners without causing a traffic jam and blocking shooting line of sight.

I do think the game will move to 3000 points though. Yes it's up to local groups to decide, but everyone I know can easily field 3000 points with all the extra models that they don't use now because they are currently Nerf. The two reasons we play 2250 is because 1) that's the norm between different clubs and 2) it takes too long to play 3000 points without really adding anything except an even longer magic phase.

So if the new norm is 3000, and the game is sped up, I'd be surprised to find people playing some other point size, just like now, when I'm surprised when I find people who play other than 2000 or 2250. (personally, I like 2500 now, it's a good spot for Empire)

Oh and as for archers... who uses them as a shooting unit? They're for screening units, speed bumps and redirecting charges. Shooting is only done if they are march blocked and are able. Although the last two archers of a detachment were able to take a wound off of a Shaggoth last night for a bit of entertainment. How the new skirmisher rules will change this will be interesting.

@Walls: the way I've read the rumors, all units will be able to fire in two ranks "On Bended Knee" while bows are able to "Salvo" shots from all ranks. Don't hold me to that though... I'll not be accountable for any 8th edition rules until July 8.

Cognitave
29-05-2010, 07:41
Guns don't fire in two ranks, only bows. As far as I understand.

I also don't think it's going to 3000. That was giant wishlisting when the strict character %s were being bandied about so people could still take them.

I am still thinking units of 30. Shooting detachments of 5 guns or 10 xbows and 10 man combat detachments.

All missile weapons fire in 2 ranks standard, bows are 1/2 rank after the 1st. That sucks because our bowmen are skirmishers...

I'm going with the opposite of slacker. I've used Kurt Helborg (with a custom model because his is *****) to great effect, so I think he'll make the cut in 8th. Besides my BSB, I plan on loading up with at least 1 other lord level wizard, one hero level for lore of fire, and then start packing in the priests.

Kalandros
29-05-2010, 11:37
All missile weapons fire in 2 ranks standard, bows are 1/2 rank after the 1st. That sucks because our bowmen are skirmishers..

2 ranks of bows, 3rd rank and further ranks get half the models extra to shoot.

Huntsmen are definitely out.

RanaldLoec
29-05-2010, 14:35
Guns don't fire in two ranks, only bows. As far as I understand.

I also don't think it's going to 3000. That was giant wishlisting when the strict character %s were being bandied about so people could still take them.

I am still thinking units of 30. Shooting detachments of 5 guns or 10 xbows and 10 man combat detachments.

I think a ranked 20 handgunner unit with. Two crosbow detachments at 10 strong deployed on a hill behind the parent unit is looking quite attractive

I believe the rumour update states all. missle troops now fire in two ranks bows just get the extra half rank after the second. No use to us as skirmish

Archers still have more freedom to move

Lord Solar Plexus
29-05-2010, 18:24
A General on a Griffon will be a very good investement I think. Being a large target, he gains 6" to his Ld bubble. That means that our units can potentially be stubborn on Ld 9, or re-roll all psychology tests on Ld 9 if the BSB is there. That is pretty sweet.

Of course the Walter is a large target, too, but he now needs some PD to be effective and he is at a disadvantage because he isn't a wizard.



I guess what really depends is how the outnumber rules and the extra rank rules work out. That'll help determine how big to make our infantry blocks.

Our detachments not causing panic is a bit nerfed with the way they changed panic rules.


There is no outnumber rule. Whoever has a higher rank bonus is stubborn/steadfast.

Detachments do not cause panic. They can phrase the main rules however they like but this won't change unless it is specifically addressed in a FAQ.



Is it me now, or does a level 4 make much more sense than two level 2s for dispel/magic defense purposes? I'm guessing the Arch Lector may well count as a level 4 (or maybe a level 3) for dispel purposes, making things even easier if you want to go completely without wizards.


The AL will not count as a level 4, nor will the WP count as any level. A Lvl 4 is better at dispelling any particular spell but then there is no redundancy - a natural 1 or 2 ends your magic phase, and we all know that he can be killed in several gruelling ways.



Item wise, I think the Shroud of Magnus is going to be even more attractive now with how they've changed MR and ward saves.


Afaik, the Shroud will grant one model a 5++ save against magic missiles. That is next to useless I'm afraid.

Sharkboy
29-05-2010, 21:43
I'm going to go with a 40 man unit of halberdiers with 12 man xbows as one detachment and 15-20 swordsmen as the other, I'll have the ranks bonus, negate the enemies and with I4 be able to get some hits in first. A lot of halbs will die but will have the numbers to soak it up.

The joy for me is using all the different units in the army so I'm not going to be spamming multiple cannons and steam tanks. I might go for 20 man handgunner units though but this will be a 3k + army.

As for the lords and heroes I will wait for the army errata in case the're any suprises plus the amount of new items in the rulebook means I've unsure how I want them to be tooled up.

Slacker
30-05-2010, 03:30
A General on a Griffon will be a very good investement I think. Being a large target, he gains 6" to his Ld bubble. That means that our units can potentially be stubborn on Ld 9, or re-roll all psychology tests on Ld 9 if the BSB is there. That is pretty sweet.


I have to disagree with you, even if the Archlector doesn't dispel like a level 3 or 4 I think he's still a better choice than a general on a griffon. The griffon can fly, yes, but the war altar has an armor and a ward save, and has impact hits. Warrior priests are likely to have some sort of ability to buff a dispel phase.

Speaking of special characters, I think Luthor Huss becomes much more attractive if mounted great weapons are again +2S. Take a unit of 10 regular knights, with Huss, and use it as the doorknocker on the flank.


I think that 8th is really going to allow people to play Empire a lot like a 30 Years War army, as someone said like a tercio. 40 man main blocks may in fact be too unwieldy, but then again if they did in fact simplify the maneuver rules like we're hearing, then a 40 man blocks aren't going to be really much worse. Those two big units, with what basically amounts to full size units to hold their flanks, would make a pretty solid rock to take an objective in the middle of the table and hold it.

I really don't know about Greatswords. On one hand, I want to use them, but I really think a unit large enough to be effective as a parent unit in a list like this might be prohibitive. Unless you use them to anchor an entire flank and don't really give them detachments.

With a couple of big blocks, all of your shooting units should be detachments, so they don't induce panic.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-05-2010, 05:11
Well, I heard that there would be a problem with the Altar's spell but nothing concrete, so it may well turn out to be nothing. The Walter may still be the best choice. I just think that the relative merits are much more even.

Warrior priests will supposedly add one dispell die but I think they are overpriced for what they do now. Essentially you get hatred and +1 DD for 90 points, as their fighting prowess is mediocre. I'd be happy if this turns out to be groundless but Iwouldm't expect buffs from the FAQ.

Slacker
30-05-2010, 06:26
Well, I think in general you're looking at underwhelming hero choices in terms of combat ability. Luthor Huss might again be the way to go in that regard for games where special characters are the same.

I agree in general the Griffon is better now than it was before, I just think it lacks survivability, especially if this edition sees a proliferation of shooting. It's not a cannon shot that kills the giant chicken, it's the 40 arrow and handgun shots.

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 12:00
Well, I heard that there would be a problem with the Altar's spell but nothing concrete, so it may well turn out to be nothing. The Walter may still be the best choice. I just think that the relative merits are much more even.

Warrior priests will supposedly add one dispell die but I think they are overpriced for what they do now. Essentially you get hatred and +1 DD for 90 points, as their fighting prowess is mediocre. I'd be happy if this turns out to be groundless but Iwouldm't expect buffs from the FAQ.

I think the warrior priest's fighting isn't that bad. Compared to a captain, you have 1 less A and 1 less WS, but reroll to hits. That seems comparable to me. Also, with great weapons granting +2S now, this improves the warrior priest greatly.

Hatred has improved for the warrior priest as it affects more attacks. 2 ranks of inner circle knights rerolling to hit? 3 ranks of horde greatswords (perfectly doable for less than 400 points), or even halberdiers?

+1 dispel dice is also better than it was. Remember, on average the caster gets +3 or so more dice - this reduces that deficit by 1/3. Before it was more like 1 dice to counter a plus 6-7 dice boost. I accept that of course you will need a wizard to make better use of that dice, but its not like you'd have left one out would you?

General on griffon has the problems he always has, especially against empire, dark elves and dwarfs. However, he has improved ld radius and higher charge range so its not all bad.

duffybear1988
30-05-2010, 12:27
Well on the subject of huntsmen lets not forget that they can scout, can march AND shoot and can reform whenever they want during movement. This is going to be vital against anybody fielding a stone thrower, mortar or any warmachine in fact as it means you can pick off the crew before they can shoot the hell out of your big blocks of troops (which are getting even bigger). Honestly with the rumours about better warmachines I think huntsmen and pistoliers/outriders will become a necessity for knocking out crewmembers and sniping lone heroes. I wouldn't right off huntsmen yet...

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 16:22
A lot of that depends on how the scout rules work - if they are as current with TLOS then huntsmen pretty much have to start from the empire deployment zone.

In terms of shooting to knock out crew, with war machines now having 1 profile you are looking at a unit of 10 huntsmen inflicting 3 hits, roughly 0.5 wounds per turn.

With their 12" move I think you are far better off using Outriders of Pistoliers in this role myself. At least they can charge in quickly.

Sylass
30-05-2010, 16:28
Well, at least the warmachine can't shoot while the huntsmen are fighting the crew. And 6 turns -> 3 wounds until the game ends. :p

duffybear1988
30-05-2010, 16:56
Hmmmm yeah I only just stumbled across the new warmachine rules about having 1 stat line - thats a pain in the behind...

Lord Solar Plexus
30-05-2010, 18:35
I think the warrior priest's fighting isn't that bad. Compared to a captain, you have 1 less A and 1 less WS, but reroll to hits. That seems comparable to me.


It's certainly no huge difference but that doesn't make him a good fighter, especially when you can get nearly two Captains per WP. I know, I know, there's more than just their melee ability but I think that prayers are worse than before. Now, they can be a good way to draw some dice; this will not be possible anymore.



General on griffon has the problems he always has, especially against empire, dark elves and dwarfs.

I am not entirely sure how monsters and their riders are being handled in the new rule set but would the Walter not share this problem in many cases? :confused:

There's also the smush or hug attacks or whatever they're called from the Griffon in this combo's favour.

Von Wibble
30-05-2010, 20:45
The WAlter has higher T than the griffon and a ward save. I thought it also got the crush attacks.

As I said, I think the improvement to hatred and the extra dispel dice are worth the points increase over a captain. That said, I agree the captain's relative worth has improved - it would be entirely feasable to have a L4, general, bsb, and captain for each combat unit not containing general or bsb. A character to lead every unit - Empire are the new DOW!

Slacker
31-05-2010, 03:12
Well, if you do that your general's likely to be on foot. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does concede the advantage of running on a large target for the LD bubble.

duffybear1988
31-05-2010, 09:53
What do people think about halberdiers now? Are they worth more as a solid block supported by a detachment of swordsmen or would you run a solid unit of swordsmen with halberdier detachment?

I think I am swaying more towards a unit of 30 halberdiers + FC with 14 swordsmen and 10 handgunners as detachments.

I think the 6+ ward from the hand weapon and shield isn't worth as much as the halberds these days... especially now 2 ranks can fight (or 3 if you go big enough).

Lord Solar Plexus
31-05-2010, 11:04
I think I'm going to run both a block of Halberdiers and a block of Swordsmen with a Sword- and Halberdier detachment respectively.

Oh wait, I'm already doing that... :eek:

duffybear1988
31-05-2010, 11:12
I usually run swordsmen and tend to favour spearmen and greatswords as my other big blocks, with a smaller unit of flagellants as flank protection... but I think im swapping the swordsmen for halberdiers.

Putty
31-05-2010, 11:40
my list generally stays the same except:

1. 1 less steam tank
2. no more handgunners. will replace them with crossbowmen and huntsmen
3. more pistoleers

Lord Solar Plexus
31-05-2010, 12:12
I'm curious - why no more handgunners? Have they become worse?

Putty
31-05-2010, 12:22
they can't shoot in 2 ranks unless on a hill.

i love the S4 and AP but i'd gladly take 3 units of crossbow men and archers + huntsmen instead of just 3 units of handgunners for hotchland.

shooting in 2 ranks compresses the footprint of the army which is something I like to do because that allows the gunline (or missile-line) to have overlapping fields of fire.

Lord Solar Plexus
31-05-2010, 13:43
All missile units shoot in two ranks. Hills have no effect on this.

---

On Halberdiers: Shields or no shields?

Putty
31-05-2010, 14:10
All missile units shoot in two ranks. Hills have no effect on this.

---

On Halberdiers: Shields or no shields?

either way, the range of the bowmen / huntsmen (good march blockers) and crossbow men puts pressure on your opponent from the get go anyways.

Halberdiers? Never used them. Empire infantry blocks are only useful if there is a character with them... say a Warrior Priest. If you want to use Halberdier blocks, they better be with a Warrior Priest for the Hatred or they are hitting nothing with that WS 3.

Lord Solar Plexus
31-05-2010, 14:50
either way, the range of the bowmen / huntsmen (good march blockers) and crossbow men puts pressure on your opponent from the get go anyways.


Yes, although the range doesn't change. Also, march blocking will be quite difficult and even risky.

Everyone else is hitting on 4+, too. In fact, Halberdiers kill (slightly) more than everyone else these days, at least as far as State Troops go. We're not comparing Halberdiers to IC Knights here.

Malorian
31-05-2010, 15:13
That's an interesting choice of number - any reason?

Parent of 26 and detacjment of 13 is because 13 is the size that takes away ranks and requires 4 losses to lose it's flanking ability and 5 to cause a panic.

I won't mean much difference to my standard 25 parent units no (just add 1 model to the back) and even though it might be better to have 15 or even more, with the new template rules I'm thinking if they want to bring that detachment under 10 they are going to be able to do it anyway.


I'm also thinking about a parent unit of 50 spears (horde) and detachments of 25 swordmen, but that would just be for my center.

Skyros
31-05-2010, 17:11
We gain some and we lose some.

Being able to take more cheap (and more effective) mortars is great - we were always constrained primarily by # of special slots, rather than total points - especially given that we tend to take a lot of core points.

I'm not excited about taking dual steam tanks because they are overpriced pieces of rubbish when facing anyone with even a modicum of high strength shooting...and if they dont' have that, grats, you win the game. Not much fun on either side.

Better infantry blocks sounds good, with the stepping up and fighting in two ranks. This may make halberdiers finally not be the absolute worst choice for state troops ever - though the new ward save for swordsmen and striking in init may make swordsmen better. Frequently I'm denied the entirety of my armor save, but the ward save would always help. I may actually use halberdiers for parent blocks now. Striking in 3 ranks with S4 weapons vs S3 weapons may make the trade off worthwhile.

My swordsmen (which are currently used for parent blocks) may switch to being detachments, because if we need 10 men in a detachment to break ranks, with a 25 man parent block, that's not a lot of room for error.

Our detachments took quite a hit, if you do in fact have to have a rank of your own to break ranks. Also, our vanilla knights are suddenly much less useful. In fact, it's going to be difficult for anything other than ranked infantry to break ranks. This helps our big infantry blocks, but it makes the old 9 man rank breaking detachments a thing of the past. You'll need (apparently) at least 10 men in a detachment, 5x2, to break ranks, and you'll want some buffer wounds so a single goblin bow shot doesn't remove your ability to break ranks.

I expect the AL to remain the lord of choice over the Elector count, unless GW finally wises up and gives the Empire some <50 pt banners worth a crap.

Wizard Lord could see more use, depending on the magic changes, and especially if we can take multiple lords as long as the total is <25% of the total.


2 ranks of bows, 3rd rank and further ranks get half the models extra to shoot.

Huntsmen are definitely out.

Huntsmen aren't worth using now, in 7e. Making their minimum size be 10 was absurd. Now that they can't march block as effectively, there's really no point to them whatsoever.

Small screening archer detachments are probably still viable. In fact, you may want to screen your rank breaking melee detachment with one.

Skyros
31-05-2010, 17:22
Well, I heard that there would be a problem with the Altar's spell but nothing concrete, so it may well turn out to be nothing. The Walter may still be the best choice. I just think that the relative merits are much more even.

Warrior priests will supposedly add one dispell die but I think they are overpriced for what they do now. Essentially you get hatred and +1 DD for 90 points, as their fighting prowess is mediocre. I'd be happy if this turns out to be groundless but Iwouldm't expect buffs from the FAQ.

I'm going to be really annoyed if they make the prayers for warrior priests even less powerful/useful than they currently are. Right now, if you want to use your warrior priest prayers, you have to bring a long of bunch of other wizards to provide you with 'cover' or any army can easily dispell them just with the base power dice.

Note that as units get more attacks, hatred becomes better and better. A WP giving hatred to 5 halberd attacks isn't any big deal,but a WP giving hatred to a 10 wide unit of 40 halberds who strike in 3 ranks may make a significant difference.

duffybear1988
31-05-2010, 20:08
Hmmm actually I think empire cavalry do get a boost in this edition but only if supported by a character.

With the +2S for mounted great weapons and the changes to armour penetration knights of the white wolf actually got much better. Admittedly we are striking last, but if you chuck a grandmaster with sword of sigismund in there then he is putting out 4 S5 ASF attakc at I6 so has re-rolls to hit against most things. Now if you chuck in a cheap warrior priest for hatred then you have reasonably strong hammer unit to counter charge, and thanks to the changes to march blocking they are moving much faster across the table.

Im thinking of running 11 wolf knights with full command and a grandmaster with sword of sigismund as my main assault unit. I will probably keep them back in my battleline until the enemy closes, probably screened by a small detachment until I feel the need to unleash them. Its not perfect but WS4 S5 attacks and 2+AS really does help out our poor state troops.

I personally think knights with lances are a thing of the past as it will be hard to beat units in one turn of combat with knights now... they are there for the long haul and white wolves excel here (when supported by blocks of troops) and i wouldn't bother upgrading to inner circle as it takes points away from our other specials.

Malorian
31-05-2010, 21:01
The 1+ save knights (lances) will still have their place.

And although the hatred from the priest is always nice, I wouldn't bother with the ASF character. He really wouldn't kill that much anyway and with the stepping up and second rank (or more) attack back you would be better of just getting more knights.

CaptScott
01-06-2010, 09:34
Aren't the rumours saying that knights will be able to fight in two ranks...?

If so knights ftw!

11 knights + priest (6x2) means 13 re-rollable st5/6 attacks + horses. Heck, throw in a TGM and we might even have a viable hammer unit...!!

duffybear1988
01-06-2010, 17:28
We have just played a practice fight with 10 knights with great weapons, full command), a warrior priest on horse with great weapon and armour and a grandmaster with sword of sigismund (in 2 ranks of 6) against 30 high elf spearmen with full command (in 5 ranks of 6 men).

Turn 1 -
Grandmaster strikes first with re-rolls to hit due to ASF and I6 - he kills 2 spearmen.
Elves strike back and kill 1 knight.
Horses strike and kill 2 spearmen.
Warrior Priest kills 1 elf, and the knights kill 6.

Based on the rumours of more ranks = stubborn, the spearmen are stubborn and pass their break test.

Turn 2 -
Grandmaster strikes first and kills 4 spearmen.
Elves strike back and kill nothing.
Horses strike and kill 2 spearmen.
Warrior Priest kills 0 spearmen, and the knights kill 5.

The spearmen are no longer stubborn and break.

We ran this through 4 or 5 times in the small games we played and it ended with pretty much the same outcome in all the matches (except against swordmasters who chewed up the knights with their heap of attacks). So it looks like against big blocks of basic troops knights with the odd hero really do still pack a punch.

So far for downsides we just found out that flagellants really aren't great anymore - they have no save and strike last and most of the time are hit on 3's... when the enemy chucks enough S3 attacks at you they will die a lot - I lost 15 flagellants to a unit of seaguard in combat in one phase! Unless you spend a bucket load of points on a huge unit they wont be able to stall the enemy at all.

Also our state troops might look good on paper, but so far they have only beaten goblins in combat, high elves kill most of the unit with their ASF and re-rolls to hit, and dwarfs can weather the attacks with their reasonable armour save. It would appear that we are going to need brooms to sweep away casualties as well, as so far lots of men are dieing each turn, lots more than in 7th edition... by the looks of it games may well be a lot shorter than they are now!

Well thats just my findings from a few quick games with a couple of mates today, its only based on rumours so take it as you will.

Malorian
01-06-2010, 17:31
Bah!

Empire has better throw away units and war machines that high elves.

Before the elven infantry meet ours they will be greatly reduced and then out 25 point free company will easily redirect them to provide a flank charge.

duffybear1988
01-06-2010, 17:39
I took a pair of hellblasters in one game and oh did they make a mess :D

Von Wibble
01-06-2010, 19:09
Better infantry blocks sounds good, with the stepping up and fighting in two ranks. This may make halberdiers finally not be the absolute worst choice for state troops ever - though the new ward save for swordsmen and striking in init may make swordsmen better. Frequently I'm denied the entirety of my armor save, but the ward save would always help. I may actually use halberdiers for parent blocks now. Striking in 3 ranks with S4 weapons vs S3 weapons may make the trade off worthwhile.

I expect the AL to remain the lord of choice over the Elector count, unless GW finally wises up and gives the Empire some <50 pt banners worth a crap.

Small screening archer detachments are probably still viable. In fact, you may want to screen your rank breaking melee detachment with one.

I agree with most of your points.

Just a few things, firstly the ward save for hand weapon and shield is a nerf not a buff. Its worse against S3 and 4, and only better against S6 and above, which generally isn't used to kill empire foot troops. That said, detachments of swordsmen certainly look the way to go, and I think they're stil good as parent units, though horde halberdiers also look good.

If the rumour about there being 20 or so magic banners in the BRRB is true then you'd hope some of them are decent enough for your troops - that has to be a plus point for the general. Also, unlike the WAlter, the general is cheap enough to be able to combine with a wizard lord and provide decent equipment for both.

With TLOS I'm not sure skirmishing archers can actually screen troops, unless you just want -1 to be hit oc.

As far as helblasters go, I used 2 in one game, and after they single ahndedly (double handedly) wiped out most of the enemy army I vowed to limit myself to no more than 1 in a 3000 point game. I think I will be putting a lot of points into special choices though.

Skyros
01-06-2010, 19:46
I've been very down on hellblasters since they needed to roll to hit - although they are useful against large targets.

In terms of massacring infantry, it seems like no guess mortars and hellstorms would be much more efficient.

GW knights may indeed make a comeback if you get +2 to str and striking order is determined by I anyway, as empire knights don't have the best I. I mourned the loss of white wolf knights and their cavalry hammers.

Someone said flagellants struck last...is this correct? They are armed with flails, not great weapons. I thought flails were just lances for foot units, not great weapons at all. Or is their initiative really low? (I honestly couldn't tell you off the top of my head)

Skyros
01-06-2010, 19:47
As far as helblasters go, I used 2 in one game, and after they single ahndedly (double handedly) wiped out most of the enemy army I vowed to limit myself to no more than 1 in a 3000 point game. I think I will be putting a lot of points into special choices though.

I really really hope there's some kind of combined 50% special + rare allotment. I find our special choices to be excellent and our rare choices to be generally terrible. We can take a unit of flagellants as core anyway. I don't like steamtanks or HBVG, so my only points in rare is likely to be a single HRB, which means lots of points for cannons, mortars, outriders, pistoliers, greatswords, and IC Knights.

Malorian
01-06-2010, 19:58
Someone said flagellants struck last...is this correct? They are armed with flails, not great weapons. I thought flails were just lances for foot units, not great weapons at all. Or is their initiative really low? (I honestly couldn't tell you off the top of my head)

Their init is horrible.

Skyros
01-06-2010, 20:13
Hm. On the one hand, losing their strike first on the charge is a big deal.

OTOH, stepping up means even if they take losses, if you have a big block of them, they can get off some pretty devastating attacks.

I do think their use as a 'tarpit' is going to dramatically decrease - they are T3 and with no armor, and the # of templates and missiles and attacks flying around is increasing significantly.

Malorian
01-06-2010, 20:18
And they are only WS2.

If you want them as a tarpit I would deploy them congo-line style...

However since they can't take a banner they can't hold objectives so I think for the same point cost that greatswords will be a much better option. Fear won't auto break them anymore, and they will continue to hit hard as the fight goes on.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-06-2010, 21:01
Good points on Flagellants. I was just getting used to them but seeing that they cost the same as GS, it's really no big deal.


The WAlter has higher T than the griffon


In my book they have the same T. :confused:


We have just played a practice fight ...So it looks like against big blocks of basic troops knights with the odd hero really do still pack a punch.


Meh, what did those units cost? 600 vs 250 points, and it took them two turns? Most underwhelming, if not for the horses.

Skyros
01-06-2010, 21:10
The WS2 hasn't really bothered me much, as anything worth tarpitting is hitting us on 3's even if we're WS3.

Going up to WS4 definitely helps however.

Also, I think the 'back' rank of flagellants doesn't get the bonus frenzy attack, whereas the bank rank of greatswords gets their full (1 each) attack, which closes the gap somewhat between greatswords and flagellants in terms of killing power.

Basically I think of flaggies like dwarf slayers; not survivable enough to really be a tarpit unit. Flaggies at least can martyr and provide a surprise offense, though not striking first on the charge is a blow. OTOH it sounds like it's much harder to lead frenzied troops around by the nose now, as you can take a LD test to restrain, and flaggies have LD 10. (Or did last time I looked!) I don't use them much anymore.

dirach.
02-06-2010, 09:34
What really conserns me is how I'm going to get 4 extra 4th edition halberdiers to get them from 36 to 40.

I also need 5 6th edition spearmen and some 5th editon Swordsmen but maybe the new ones will do.

Other conserns is how many Flaggelants and great swords will I need? Currently I have 25 of each.

Suddenly my Empire army collection feels to small.

Lord Solar Plexus
02-06-2010, 10:39
Okay, I've run some numbers based on the rumours against some core unit statlines (WS 3/4, S3/4, T3/4 with LA, HW + shield) and it seems that Swordsmen still come out on top when compared to Halberdiers.

However, the differences are *very* small, and since I have assumed no shields for the Halberdiers, they are a wee bit cheaper.

Von Wibble
02-06-2010, 14:19
Good points on Flagellants. I was just getting used to them but seeing that they cost the same as GS, it's really no big deal.

In my book they have the same T. :confused:



You're right - I thought WAlter had T6. It does still have 1 more wound and a ward though. And an armour save of 5+ (woot!).

Flagellants- mine never ever got to charge so striking last really cahnges nothing. I think the way to go with these guys is in a unit of 30 in horde formation. You should at least get some of your S5 attacks going and may be wide enough to tarpit 2 units for a couple of turns.

The other thing going for them is the fact that 1 unit is core if you have a warrior priest, whilst greatswords are special.

My own analysis of halbs vs swordsmen

I'll firstly try out units of 30 in ranks of 6, each led by warrior priest. We shall assume no champions, no detachments, and that no attacks are directed at the priest. We shall also assume neither side charges.

Facing them we shall have 2 different units (one at a time). 30 Orc boyz in ranks of 6, with La + sh, and then 30 dark elf spearmen, also in ranks of 6 (using spears not sword + shield)

Swordsmen vs Orcs Round 1 Swordsmen kill 3, Orcs kill 2.8
Round 2 Swordsmen kill 2.25, Orcs kill 1.7

Halberds vs Orcs Round 1 Halbs kill 4.1, Orcs kill 4
Round 2 Halbs kill 2.8, Orcs kill 2.5

Swordsmen vs DElves Round 1 Swordsmen kill 4, DE kill 3.5
Round 2 Swordsmen kill 2.67, DE kill 2.5

Halberds vs DElves Round 1 Halbs kill 5.83, DE kill 6.7
Round 2 Halbs kill 3.89, DE kill 3.75

This backs up Lord Solar Plexus in that the halberds lose out in comparison with the swordsmen, especially as the warrior priest benefits the halberds more. Since the halberds still win out in the long term and cost less, its not a completely open and shut comparison though.

Now in horde formation with a warrior priest. This is the absolute best case scenario for halberds so if they lose out here than swordsmen are definately the way to go.

Units of 40 in horde formation, facing units of 40 orc boys also in horde, with LA and SH.

Swordsmen vs orcs Round 1 Swordsmen kill 4.4, Orcs kill 6.9
Round 2 Swordsmen kill 2.7, Orcs kill 4.17

Halbs vs Orcs Round 1 Halbs kill 8.8, Orcs kill 10
Round 2 Halbs kill 6, Orcs kill 5.2

Swordsmen vs DE Round 1 Swordsmen kill 8.5 ,DE kill 8.3
Round 2 Swordsmen kill 5.2,DE kill 4.3

Halbs vs DE Round 1 Halbs kill 11.25 DE kill 15 (Run away!)
Round 2 Halbs kill 5.5 DE kill 6.9

Conclusion - Don't run swordsmen in horde formation against orcs! I genuinely didn't expect the swordsmen to do that well agains the elves, actually doing better than when not in horde formation. But it does look like horde formation in general is not the way to go for empire, unless facing armies that can't afford to adopt this formation themselves. Running some quick numbers shows horde halberds doing quite well against chaos warriors for example (they actually fare better than they did against the dark elves!)

I would suggest that halberdiers can be taken but thrive against lower I armies whilst swordsmen are a better call against glass cannon style armies.

duffybear1988
02-06-2010, 15:30
hmmm thats interesting... although I think orcs with 2 choppas will become much more common.

Lord Solar Plexus
02-06-2010, 15:39
Here's my calculation.

WS 3 S 3 T 3 5+ AS/6++
attacking Swordsmen: 10 A -- 5 hits -- 2,5 W -- 1,67 AS 1,4 casualties
Swordsmen hitting back: 10 A 6,67 hits 3,33 W 2,2 AS 1,85 casualties

attacking Halberdiers: 10 A 5 hits 2,5 W -- 2,08 AS 2,08 casualties
Halberdier hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 3,33 W 2,78 AS 2,31 casualties

Swordsmen net CR: + 0,45
Halberdiers net CR: + 0,23

WS 4 S 3 T 3 5+ AS/6++
attacking Swordsmen: 10 A -- 5 hits -- 2,5 W -- 1,67 AS 1,4 casualties
Swordsmen hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 2,5 W 1,67 AS 1,4 casualties
attacking Halberdiers: 10 A 6,67 hits 3,33 W 2,78 AS 2,78 casualties
Halberdier hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 3,33 W 2,78 AS 2,31 casualties

Swordsmen net: +/- 0
Halberdiers net: - 0,47

WS 3 S 3 T 4 5+ AS/6++
attacking Swordsmen: 10 A -- 5 hits -- 2,5 W -- 1,67 AS 1,4 casualties
Swordsmen hitting back: 10 A 6,67 hits 2,22 W 1,48 AS 1,23 casualties
attacking Halberdiers: 10 A 5 hits 2,5 W -- 2,08 AS 2,08 casualties
Halberdier hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 2,5 W 2,08 AS 1,74 casualties

Swordsmen net: - 0,17
Halberdiers net: - 0,34

WS 3 S 4 T 3 5+ AS/6++
attacking Swordsmen: 10 A -- 5 hits 3,33 W 2,78 AS 2,31 casualties
Swordsmen hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 2,5 W 1,67 AS 1,4 casualties
attacking Halberdiers: 10 A 5 hits 3,33 W 3,33 AS 3,33 casualties
Halberdier hitting back: 10 A 5 hits 3,33 W 2,78 AS 2,31 casualties

Swordsmen net: - 0,91
Halberdiers net: - 1,02

Malorian
02-06-2010, 16:04
Here's my calculation.

...

Swordsmen net: - 0,91
Halberdiers net: - 1,02

So, just like in 7th, it doesn't really matter...

Walls
02-06-2010, 18:18
Don't get going crazy thinking you need a bigger army. This 3000pt standard game is a) really strongly disputed and b) not a level you NEED to play at. The game isnt gonna be best balanced at 3k or anything.

As far as I am concerned, this 3k bunk was just people wishlisting so they could still fit in their uber lords the percentages were taking away.

Malorian
02-06-2010, 18:30
As far as I am concerned, this 3k bunk was just people wishlisting so they could still fit in their uber lords the percentages were taking away.

Absolutely.

But it's the wishes of the people that are going to effect standard tournament sizes, and in general the size of game played in tournaments is what people play on their own.

Lord Solar Plexus
03-06-2010, 06:40
Well, 3k or 2k...many times you won't notice the difference. Add a few character models and voila. :)

ArchHeretic
03-06-2010, 10:13
We are Empire. Our heroes are cheap. With percentages, my characters will either be more decked out or more numerous lol

Lord Solar Plexus
03-06-2010, 20:13
I need your input, gents. I currently own two WP models, one on foot and the Luthor Huss one on a steed. I'm thinking about using an AL at some point in time. I'm pretty sure that the Altar is at the top of the foodchain of recommendations for him but if you didn't want or couldn't use it, what would be a half decent alternative layout? Barded horse, dawn armour or on foot with the AoMI? On foot, I'd use him in a unit of Halberdiers somewhere in the centre of my battle line while the mounted version would be leading a largish unit of knights...any tipps?

Slacker
04-06-2010, 03:21
On horseback with the Mace of Helstrum, run him at a lord or something nasty and punch it in the gibblies.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 11:00
That's a good option, with dawn armour for defense.

Alternative horse build would be sword of fate for offense

On foot I would agree with AoMI. You could then take any of the weapons just listed, but tbh I'd just have a great weapon, maybe VHS, White Cloak or Holy Relic for protection, and then have plenty of points left over for a level 4. I'd consider putting him with greatswords rather than halberdiers, though that depends on whether you can afford this option.

Tbh there aren't that many options. The arch lector is just a warrior priest with extra ld, wound, prayer and magic item allowance, and therefore anything that works for a warrior priest will work for him.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-06-2010, 11:15
Good ideas. The mounted version becomes a little too expensive for my tastes, especially when kitted out. I think I'll go with a footslogger in AoMI and GW. The general should be in the centre of the battle line I think. I might have some points left over for the White Cloak; that one has saved my General quite often.

I always try to bring one harder-hitting unit of infantry. In the past, Flaggellants did a good job as long as they got the charge and weren't outdeployed. I think I will try out GS again for a change, 20 men, 6 wide. Putting the AL here makes sense, thanks for pointing that out, von Wibble.

Another question or two: How many blocks would you guys feel comfortable with in 2250 point battles? I'm thinking about fielding 30 Swordsmen (with 15 Halberdiers), 30 Halberdiers (with 15 Swordsmen) and 20 GS + some knights + various support units.

Has anyone an idea of how much shooting you're going to take?

yabbadabba
04-06-2010, 11:21
Just to through into the mix, we have the distinct possibility of units (particularly infantry) increasing in size quite dramatically.
We have the possible removal of partials for templates.
We have the possible removal of guessing range for warmachines.
Surely now an Engineer, with mortars and/or Hellstorms become more of an option? A mortar landing spot on a unit of infantry is going to make a big mess, and that might become far more of a probability.

As to Greatswords, unless they get a bit of a buff, I'd say we will see these in a flanking role of parent units (note not as a detachment) as core infantry seems a better choice.

Final restrictions - I find it unlikely that the Bank of GW will impose a top limit on units. Far more likely wil be a ratio of core:special: rare to take this into account. For instance some units (helblaster, canon, mortar etc) might have "can take one for each core unit over 25 models) or similar. GW will want to make sure that these models can still be sold at larger army sizes. In addition, with the changes we have seen so far, Battlefields might be imminent as WFB's Apocalypse and GW will want people to have "grand batteries" of war machines.

cptcosmic
04-06-2010, 12:39
We have just played a practice fight with 10 knights with great weapons, full command), a warrior priest on horse with great weapon and armour and a grandmaster with sword of sigismund (in 2 ranks of 6) against 30 high elf spearmen with full command (in 5 ranks of 6 men).

Turn 1 -
Grandmaster strikes first with re-rolls to hit due to ASF and I6 - he kills 2 spearmen.
Elves strike back and kill 1 knight.
Horses strike and kill 2 spearmen.
Warrior Priest kills 1 elf, and the knights kill 6.

Based on the rumours of more ranks = stubborn, the spearmen are stubborn and pass their break test.

Turn 2 -
Grandmaster strikes first and kills 4 spearmen.
Elves strike back and kill nothing.
Horses strike and kill 2 spearmen.
Warrior Priest kills 0 spearmen, and the knights kill 5.

The spearmen are no longer stubborn and break.

well the comparision is stupid and has serious flaws. you take 2 characters and 10 men of heavy cavalry against alot of S3 attacks? -.- 600 vs 300 points, oh well who will win. in 8. the mounts dont get any benefit of rerolls and will not be able to strike from the 2nd rank.

for the rest of the points the HE army can get a BSB +2 save S6 ASF attacks and a Lion Chariot. the Spearmen also now stand only 5 men wide thus you loose 2 attacks + 1 mount (I assume you are standing 6x2)

now it looks even. the HE noble has a good chance to rape 2 knights which means another 2 models less to attack because you have not enough Knights to step up in contact. (I assume that all the characters attack the normal units for simplicity) the Lion chariot may get the charge in the flank the round afterwards.

or if you like to fight against spearelves only, well then we may aswell take 60 spearelves with warbanner for those points. 10 wide horde. you will loose some knights each round and the spearelves get a static +5 to CR.

duffybear1988
04-06-2010, 13:13
Well it wasn't meant to be a straight up comparison as it was part of an actual battle we played not just 1 unit vs 1 unit, and that's why my 600 pts of knights faced 300 pts of elves, maybe I didn't make that clear sorry.

What my point was meant to be was that in a game which is supposedly to be focusing a lot more on big blocks of core infantry, heavy cavalry still have a big role to play, and empire cavalry do it better than most.

In our trial games based on the rumours the big blocks of infantry tended to get bogged down for ages in combat with one another (I think the worst was empire halberdiers vs dwarf warriors... that took 4 whole turns of combat to resolve). Thus the Empire need a hammer unit to punch through the enemy lines quickly so that they can reposition for flank/rear charges on the rest of the enemy lines or take out enemy warmachines and heores (with the rumours on free reform instead of pursuit this is made easier if you so choose). Such hammer units will probably end up being large blocks of knights supported by heroes/lords... that was all my point was. And anyway that lion chariot would have been dead before it got close enough to charge thanks to my 3 cannons, and that huge block of spearelves would have been thinned with my 2 mortars and handgunner detachments.

I was just saying that in 8th edition it's going to be even more important for the Empire army to work together as one-on-one our state troops can't deal with most other enemy units.

Anyway it's just my views so take them as you will, I don't really mind as i'm on holiday and you caught me in a good mood :D




I always try to bring one harder-hitting unit of infantry. In the past, Flaggellants did a good job as long as they got the charge and weren't outdeployed. I think I will try out GS again for a change, 20 men, 6 wide. Putting the AL here makes sense, thanks for pointing that out, von Wibble.

Another question or two: How many blocks would you guys feel comfortable with in 2250 point battles? I'm thinking about fielding 30 Swordsmen (with 15 Halberdiers), 30 Halberdiers (with 15 Swordsmen) and 20 GS + some knights + various support units.

Has anyone an idea of how much shooting you're going to take?

Greatswords do seem the better option these days I have to agree.

As for how many state troops, i'm running the following -
30 spearmen with 14 swordsmen and 10 handgunners as detachments, 30 halberdiers with 13 free company and 10 handgunners as detachments, 20 greatswords with 10 crossbowmen as a detachment. I also have 10 wolf knights, 3 cannons, a mortar, a bsb, lv2 wizard, grandmaster, and a mounted warrior priest.

Currently I can't decide whether to add the following to take it up to 2250 points (I have 114 points left) -
1) a unit of pistoliers.
2) another warrior priest (for the greatswords).
3) some huntsmen.
4) another mortar and to bulk out my detachments a little more.
5) another level 2 wizard or upgrade the current level 2 to a level 4.

Any ideas?

Lord Solar Plexus
04-06-2010, 14:01
Hmm, missile detachments...do you leave them alone or do you actually move them up with the parent unit? It would appear to me that the whole troop becomes very static. That's not so good when you need to capture objectives.

I usually always field Pistoliers although I was thinking of exchanging them for something else, as they usually get killed by something nasty. On the other hand I'm probably just not good at using them. The increased range of their pistols might make them somewhat easier to use.

I also nearly always have two L2's, mainly for redundancy.



As to Greatswords, unless they get a bit of a buff, I'd say we will see these in a flanking role of parent units (note not as a detachment) as core infantry seems a better choice.

So how big a unit would you take in this role? I mainly play against Skaven, so flanking doesn't happen as often as I wish.

duffybear1988
04-06-2010, 14:18
hmmm... thats a good point I do currently play a pretty static army that moves every now and then and with the objectives mission (I think there is only 1) I will have to do a lot more moving, in which case I will probably make it 1 big unit of 18 handgunners with maybe a smaller unit of 12-16 crossbowmen and have them as independent units with banners. Im not sure yet as I would like to see the rules before making any huge changes. (My army hasn't really changed since the current army book was released as I don't play fantasy much any more).

As for pistoliers I have never really had much success with them so I probably wont be taking them unless they improve much in 8th ed.

yabbadabba
04-06-2010, 15:28
So how big a unit would you take in this role? I mainly play against Skaven, so flanking doesn't happen as often as I wish. That will depend on how flanking a unit works in the new rules. I see this because they have a 4+ save, stubborn and a GW (strike last), so with core units could be becoming stubborn/steadfast and armour save modifiers possibly not being as important as the number of attacks now, Cores could be better. In short, a GS unit flanking a dirty big unit of infantry will do some real damage even with striking last, mostly because of the complete lack of attacks back.

But I also think that all standard models should have 1 attack unless equipped with additional hand weapons. There shouldn't be one weapon armed, human type units with additional attacks.

Pistolliers were too good under previous rules, as they could make a real mess flanking slow infantry units. Under the current rules they can end up being an easy unit to destroy by powerful, independent characters or a missile unit without a better target. They are slightly too expensive to as screens or re-directers. However for an army that lacks fast nimble units or flyers, pistolliers can be very useful when fighting for objectives, take and holds and if you can work them into the enemy's back line. Lets see how the new rules change them.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 15:57
Well, I just picked a 2500 point army for use in 8th.

Lords General, gw, AoMI
L4 wizard lord, luckstone, Dispel Scroll Total 369 points

Heroes Warrior Priest, barded warhorse, gw, ha.
BSB, full plate, Sword of Battle, Enchanted Shield
Total 221 points

Core 29 Swordsmen, fcg (General goes here)
Detachments - 12 Swordsmen, 10 Handguns
9 Knights of the Order of the Most Holy (great weapons), fcg (WP goes here)
20 Handgunners, fcg
Detcahments - 10 Crossbowmen, 10 Swordsmen. Total 918 points

Special 24 Greatswords, fcg (BSB goes here)
Detachments - 5 Archers, 12 Swordsmen (another 112 points core?)
1 Cannon
5 Outriders
2 x 5 Pistoliers Total 655 points

Rare Helblaster
Helstorm Total 235 points


Tbh I think I could have played it a lot nastier but I am happy with the balance. Shame I couldn't fit any flagellants in.

Overall I see missile detachments standing still and the army generally standing back. The outriders should use their free move to get a good firing position. The pistoliers' job is to take objectives. Mine have done me proud over many games but I see them operating more on a hit and run style now.

Changes I might make - drop the archers for musicians on pistoliers. Remove both detachments and fcg from handgunners and get a pegasus captain with casket. Reduce size of greatsword unit and make the order of the most holy inner circle. Or do a mix of the 3 reductions and get a sizeable block of flagellants (I can't see a unit of less than 25 working myself). Removing the helstorm would also be a possibility.

duffybear1988
04-06-2010, 16:03
Hey mate are you sure that comes to 2500 points? It looks a little small, but maybe its just me.

Also can a BSB have an enchanted shield? I didn't think he could as if he is a BSB he can't have a normal shield and as such can't have a magic one, or have they FAQ'ed that?

Im looking at something like this for 2500 points -

Lords -
1 Grandmaster, sword of sigismund.
1 Wizard Lord (heavens or light), dispel scroll, lv 4.

Heroes -
1 Captain, BSB, AoMI.
1 Warrior Priest, dawn armour, great weapon.
1 Warrior Priest, warhorse, barding, great weapon.

Core-
30 Spearmen, full command, shields.
+ Detachment of 14 Swordsmen.

30 Halberdiers, full command.
+ Detachment of 15 Free Company.

18 Handgunners, musucian, standard bearer.

12 Crossbowmen.

10 White Wolf Knights, full command.

10 Huntsmen.

Special-
2 Cannons.

2 Mortars.

20 Greatswords, full command.


Totals at 2500 points exactly.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 16:38
You may be right about enchanted shield. I am used to my bsbs being allowed equipment of late! In which case drop that for a shield and add a musician to a pistolier unit.

Not sure why you think my list is a bit small...

It has 1 less foot unit than yours, no huntsmen, and 1 less character (plus general not grand master)

But otoh it has 3 fast cav units and about 20 more missile troops. The detachments are swordsmen who will last better than free company also.

Seems comparable enough to me.

I tihnk we've both went for similar ideas really. My army slightly edges movement and shooting, yours combat and magic. We have both went for similarly sized units, and both taken a fairly minimalist approach on equipping characters. My only criticism of your list is that if the mounted WP and grand master are both with those knights then that unit is overkill, and you'd be better off removing noe character for a block of pistoliers.

duffybear1988
04-06-2010, 16:52
Sorry I wasn't criticising so much as just saying that 369+221+918+655+235 = 2398 points on my calculator :D

Also a mate just pointed out that the grandmaster is a bit pointless now as his immune to psychology makes him immune to panic and thats it as fear and terror are no longer psychology apparently!!! Will have to wait for an FAQ on that one I think, otherwise I will drop him for a basic general on horse.

As for having my grandmaster and priest with the knights being overkill... well it is, but his 4 attacks at I6 ASF (so re-rolling failed hits against anything with lower I) at S5 can really help out I have found, and the warrior priest is there for when my knights decide to bring foam hammers to the fight (which happens frequently). Its a unit I have grown to love so I will try it in 8th before changing, but if it does end up as being massive overkill then rest assured the unit will change.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 22:13
Having just checked the individual units its 2500 on the nose. I think you missed the extra 112 points on core hidden in the specials, and one of my totals is 10 above what it should be.

I put that total of 112 seperately because I'm not sure if core detachments for a special choice would count as points spent on core or special.

Even if fear and terror are psychology I still think the grand master may not be the best option. Your bsb gives you rerolls after all.

duffybear1988
04-06-2010, 22:43
Ah you are right I did miss that extra 112 points (I blame my poor eyesight). :D

I presume the points for the detachment will be taken from specials if it is attached to the greatwords.

Yeah Im having a rethink on the grandmaster right now as he is a lot of points... trouble is I got him as a present from family and if I don't use him they will be upset so maybe I could make him a captain (warhorse, barding, full plate, great weapon) and leave him in the knights unit, that way I could have a general on foot like I originally wanted. hmmmm with the big blocks of troops that we are likely to see the knights do need some kind of combat edge and in the practice games I had the other day my grandmaster was killing 3 or 4 men a turn before they got to strike which was pretty useful (he was killing 1/3 of the combined knight units kills a turn). Maybe the captain is a good way to boost the unit whilst still being able to retain a general on foot.

I could do the following with the 198 points from the grandmaster and a handgunner -

1 captain, full plate, warhorse, barding, great weapon = 76 pts.
1 general, full plate, enchanted shield, sword of might = 122 pts.

That still gives me a hard hitting captain to accompany the knights and it also gives me a general with a good armour save. Its not ideal but it will give me the oportunity to place the knights on a flank instead of having them in the centre of my lines for the leadership bonus every game.

Opinions?

Slacker
05-06-2010, 06:54
I think the best option by far for a unit of knights in terms of a character is a warrior priest. Hatred is going to make those lances or great weapons ten times more useful. (Well, really, approximately 33% more useful, but you get the idea)

Von Wibble
05-06-2010, 12:38
If you want to be exact, 50% against units with WS4 or more, 33% against units with WS3 or less ;)

duffybear1988 - I think that's a better mix of characters myself.

A thought I have just had in general - with very high casting values and more devastating spells seemingly becoming more the norm, surely Aldred's casket becomes even nicer than it already is.

Thinking about it I have to modify my army to squeeze it in somewhere.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-06-2010, 15:07
Okay, I'm a bit frustrated today. We decided to play a test game with what we knew of the rules yesterday, my Empire against a friend's Skaven. Ruleswise, it went smoothly enough but I was feeling like Faroer in a soccer match against Brazil. I think this is the 10th or 12th loss against Skaven and this particular player and I'm completely at a loss what else I could do. It seems that whatever he points at my units, my unit dies. His magic is magnitudes better - last game he had 7 warp tokens, his combat units kill whatever they touch, and my 700 points of shooting did kill precisely two models. I don't mind to lose the odd game but this streak at times just makes me want to throw the towel.

Things go like this: Turn 1, he starts, always, moves up, kills half a dozen guys with magic. My turn, WM 1 misfires, WM 2 + 3 can't shoot, magic is cancelled. Turn 2: He charges and wins, flies around with heavy flamers and magic missile launchers. My turn: I charge and lose, shooting and magic isn't.

His Doomwheels and Aboms always get the drop on me, my detachments are completely useless as there is nothing to flank and they can't assault on their own, and when I think I can win a fight, he's got a trick up his sleeve - last game, 30 Halberdiers and an AL charge a wizard's bodyguard, some kind of special character Rat Ogre. Who could know that the guy was carrying a warpfire thrower that kills 16 men? Of course, the rest legged it right there and then.

Even my knights go down like a Militiaman. I charged a unit of skirmishers and overrun into a big block of Clanrats. On his turn, his PCB charge my Swordsmen (who of course! had just failed a charge of their own), kill everyone and overrun into the knights flank, killing them as well.

My list(s) is (are) very like the one's posted above:

AL, GW, AoMI

BSB, plate, barded horse, Sword of Might
Captain w/ plate, halberd, shield, pistol
2 Lvl 2's, one with van Horstmann's

30 Swordsmen, standard, musician w/ 15 Halberdiers
30 Halberdiers, FC w/ 15 Swordsmen

16 Crossbows w/ 8 Handgunners

20 GS, standard, champion, 8 Handgunners

9 Knights

2 Great Cannon

6 Pistoliers

1 Rocket launcher

Sooo...any chance anyone has an idea?

Von Wibble
06-06-2010, 19:20
Well, it looks like you were very unlucky, and facing a list which was built with a far more competitive approach. Taking what from your description I assume to be Thanquol, in addition to a HPA and Doomwheel (just 1 of each or more?) amounts to 3 of the nastiest skaven army selections all in 1 list. Its about the equivalent of a 2 steam tank empire list. Even with Thanquol you have to get quite lucky to get 7 warp tokens, and Boneripper must have got lucky to hit with that warpfire thrower (a S+S reaction I presume?)

I am surprised the PCBs beat up the swordsmen. Don't the swordsmen strike first?

It seems the semi gunline relatively immobile empire army simply won't work against that build. I imagine the war machines couldn't fire due to magic and that storm banner?

Suggestions - I don't think any of these is an I win button as Skaven will always pose a challenge to a gunline.

1) Wizard lord. Not only will he improve your dispelling but with lore of fire he can scaer the HPA. In 8th he can also give your units flaming weapons I believe, so HPA has a good chance of actually dying. Drop a level 2 and cannon and I think you can afford it.

2) Aldred's Casket. Usually its overkill on magic defense but in this case I think you might need it. I think VHS is not a necessity since he doesn't seem to have any obvious targets (not to mention imo its synergy of forcing low S onto enemy vs good armour saves means I don't advocate giving it to a wizard).

3) Dealing with the pesky storm banner - only BSB or stormvermin can have that. Target those with extreme prejudice, focusing all your power in that direction. The helblaster isn't as badly affected by the banner as other war machines though it still takes a hit, I'd take it in preference to the Helstorm since it doesn't have to get that lucky to kill a doomwheel.

Before commenting further it would be useful to know what exactly is in his army list.

FORtheGREATERgood
07-06-2010, 03:11
Although I usually play 2000 points or less (due to that being all the points of empire i currently own), I am unfortunate enough to have a gaming group with skaven. It always seems like an uphill battle and starting out I got massacred twice until I picked up a few things and now can get draws consistently (the wins just aren't coming when I'm up against doomwheels and an HPA at those points).

1. Focus fire: Important against any army but make sure to try to get some solid shots early with cannons...my best unit to take down doomwheels. Regular missile fire is crucial for taking wounds off rat ogres and other vicious units. My rare is usually occupied by a helblaster volley gun which can be devastating to any unit near it...expect a bad day every now and then though.

2. Magic: Extremely helpful (I use fire or death against skaven). At less than 2000pts, my hero loadout is usually a warrior priest with a gw and AoMI, lvl 2 with rod of power, and a level 1 or 2 with various configurations (most often a scroll and Ring of Volans).

3. As mentioned by Von...the Storm Banner: Hopefully it only lasts one turn but my fortune never seems to turn that way, seeing my fire affected for around 3 turns can be demoralizing. Many times I will focus magic into this unit and try to snipe with my hochland long rifles.
NOTE: This is why a balanced list is crucial. Too much firepower and you can watch the skaven advance towards your line with minimal casualties. Too much combat and the enemy units are too large to deal with.

As far as specific tactics go, an accurate skaven army list would make it easier to give advice but here are some generalities:
-Focus fire and on the most devastating units
- Whittle down units with gunfire while slowly advancing your main combat units (Swordsmen with detachments, etc) so that you have room to flee or as speed bumps. Pouring fire, turn later your unit charges, causes casualties, wins or loses, but when you lose, you should get at least one more turn of firing in
- Don't be afraid to use detachments as throw away units since they don't cause panic. You can't afford to lose valuable units when the skaven opponent has so many more units (at least in my games against millions of slaves and clanrats)
- Use your warmachines to kill his warmachines and HPAs

Hopefully you will find something in all of that helpful

Cognitave
07-06-2010, 03:24
Against that player, I'd take a steam tank. A list like that deserves two!

Inner-Circle Knights with a Warrior Priest in the unit are very good at breaking things up. Putting the BSB in with the knights is not advisable, and the rerolls from the Warrior Priest go very far. The Doom Wheel is, in my opinion, the most BS unit in the game. Unless you devote a large amount of cannon fire right off the bat towards taking it out, you're going to get smashed.

I'd give the skaven player the finger and a few choice words. That list he's taking is one of the cheesiest things you can bring to the table, short of daemons.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-06-2010, 06:00
Von Wibble - Indeed, Thanquol, Boneripper and a HPA. Two blocks of Slaves, two Blocks of Giant Rats and two blocks of Clanrats with Spears, a Warlock Engineer with a ... missile?, a Lvl 1, another special character riding on a Rat and attached to the PCB's, two or three weapon teams and a unit of PWG.

It just occurred to me that his rats couldn't possibly have charged on turn 2 with a 12" move and another 12" charge (as that was what they rolled) and over 24" between us...oh well. I'm not going to deploy my cannon so far forward, even if that hurts LoS sometimes.

My Swordsmen that could fight were killed by the gas.



It seems the semi gunline relatively immobile empire army simply won't work against that build. I imagine the war machines couldn't fire due to magic and that storm banner?


Quite so. Mainly it was the Stormbanner that didn't stop all game. I believe the combined firepower killed two models during the whole game.



1) Wizard lord. Not only will he improve your dispelling but with lore of fire he can scaer the HPA. In 8th he can also give your units flaming weapons I believe, so HPA has a good chance of actually dying. Drop a level 2 and cannon and I think you can afford it.


I will have to see the miscast table before I take such a step. Perhaps it was just a fluke of the dice but we both rolled once on the (current) table. Otherwise, yes, the additional +2 were what made it so easy for him to dispell. Hmm...



2) Aldred's Casket. Usually its overkill on magic defense but in this case I think you might need it. I think VHS is not a necessity since he doesn't seem to have any obvious targets (not to mention imo its synergy of forcing low S onto enemy vs good armour saves means I don't advocate giving it to a wizard).


The thing is, my friend keeps changing his list, so taking Aldred's Casket might turn out to be situational. Incidentally, the same goes for my GC. The last time I spent somewhat less on missile troops, he played a Clan Skryre list...I could have sworn there was a rumoured new rule that allowed heroes and characters to miove to the front/flank/rear and issue a challenge. Here, can Horstmann's can keep the wizard alive and prevent casualties in the unit.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-06-2010, 06:23
1. Focus fire: Important against any army but make sure to try to get some solid shots early with cannons...my best unit to take down doomwheels.


I haven't hit or seriously wounded his Doomwheels in over a dozen games. Perhaps this will change when he cannot hide behind a wood anymore but I always roll 1 or 2...and my WM are then often killed by outflanking skirmishers.

I usually prefer the Helblaster but no guessing and no partials *might* just make the Hellfire a bit better.

Regular missile units simply don't do anything. I mean whether I kill a model or not doesn't change the balance much, not when he massacres my units in turn with single shots. I wish *I* had heavy flamers. :rolleyes: They're just too fast.



2. Magic: Extremely helpful (I use fire or death against skaven). At less than 2000pts, my hero loadout is usually a warrior priest with a gw and AoMI, lvl 2 with rod of power, and a level 1 or 2 with various configurations (most often a scroll and Ring of Volans).


Well, I don't think I would have enough PD to power all these spells. Okay, you can throw a single die at a magic missile but if you fail on a 1 or 2, that's the magic phase for you, as a Lvl 1 backup often can't take up the slack.



- Whittle down units with gunfire while slowly advancing your main combat units (Swordsmen with detachments, etc) so that you have room to flee or as speed bumps.


Advancing is impossible as well. He goes first and moves up - if I move as well, he *will* charge. It may be less important in 8th but it is still important. Secondly, moving up makes him faster, so only something like Flagellants would be a road block.



Inner-Circle Knights with a Warrior Priest in the unit are very good at breaking things up. Putting the BSB in with the knights is not advisable, and the rerolls from the Warrior Priest go very far.


Well, my ordinary knights could have mauled those Spearrats quite badly. My BSB is on horseback in order to get a decent armour save, and as such cannot be in a foot unit because of the change to Look out, Sir! Okay, I could give him the AoMI but that means I need to buy a horse and some armour for my General - and that's more expensive.

Steam Tanks are overpriced and useless against enemies that ignore armour such as Skaven (or which have a plethora of at least S6 attacks).

Von Wibble
08-06-2010, 18:13
Well, that army list is simply being built as more competitive than yours. Its the kind of match-up where the fairest thing to do is play 2 games with exchanged lists and average the results....I don't know of any special characters who ride a giant rat though??

I think Aldred's casket is not situational really though. Its only useless if he takes no magic, in which case combining it with a level 4 ensures your own dominance in the phase.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-06-2010, 06:39
Okay, so what is competetive in an 8th edition Empire list? I see others posting very similar lists to mine. Is a Lvl 4 better than two Lvl 2's? He can cast and dispell better but what about redundancy?

Are bigger units competetive? Against Skaven, I often wish for more units simply to counter all of his. What about Knights, small, largish, regular or are IC mandatory? How much shooting is competetive? In my experience, taking up to 20 missile troops won't accomplish much except a very soft and subtle support function at best but take more and things like the Stormbanner will wreck you.

duffybear1988
09-06-2010, 12:04
Hmmmm im having the same trouble. My last 2 games saw my oponents getting wise to the warrior priest in my knights unit and both times now he has died through sheer weight of attacks directed at him before he even got to strike which is a pain as it nerfs the hatred re-rolls on my knights as well... so he has gone from the list as he is a points sink I dont think I need.

Also repeater crossbows can make a real mess of state troops. Last game I watched as 20 dark elf crossbowmen practically killed off all my combat detachments, and then thinned my big blocks before killing me with executioners and corsairs in combat. Multiple shots and being able to fire in 2 ranks is not good! Things like DE crossbowmen just got rediculously useful (even more than in 7th ed.) as they don't require such large lines of troops anymore... it doesn't look good for empire at this point.

The one thing I have found slightly useful is the inclusion of small detachments of 5 archers for all my state troops and greatswords units (usually paired with a combat detachment). These guys can move and shoot so can keep up with your state troops as well as providing a skirmish screen for big blocks, it's not superb, but it is the best we can get.

Currently my list looks like this -

LORDS
1 wizard lord, lv3, dispel scroll.

1 general, enchanted shield, sword of might, full plate. (joins halberdiers)

HEROES
1 captain, bsb, armour of meteoric iron. (joins spearmen)

1 captain, warhorse, barding, great weapon, full plate. (joins knights)

1 warrior priest, dawn armour, great weapon. (joins greatswords)

CORE
30 spearmen, full command, shields.
- detachments of 15 swordsmen, and 5 archers.

30 halberdiers, full command.
- detachments of 15 free company, and 5 archers.

10 crossbowmen.

16 handgunners, standard bearer.

11 white wolf knights, full command.

SPECIAL
2 cannons.

1 mortar.

5 pistoliers.

20 greatswords, full command.
- detachment of 5 archers.

RARE
1 hellblaster volley gun.


Total = 2498 points.

It really isn't top-tier though...


On the topic of inner circle knights - I don't think they are as useful anymore... these days I think its better to strike at S5 every round with basic WWKs than to waste extra points on S6 on the charge with lances, or to upgrade the WWKs to IC. Those extra few points can go towards much better things (such as upgrading a wizard lord to Lv4 or an extra dispel scroll, or even the war banner for your knights). At I3 and with 1 attack each IC knights just don't seem worth the points sink anymore.

Malorian
09-06-2010, 15:11
Knights of any kind are going to have a harder time now, but having a 1+ save will always be a good thing.

A unit of inner circle knights joined by a killy character can crash into a unit, do a good amount of damage, and even if they don't break you should be able to hold it in place until support comes in to flank it.


That being said I would rather run empire as an infantry army supported by warmachines in 8th.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-06-2010, 15:47
Infantry however kills even less than Knights, except perhaps GS. It may be able to hold opposing units in place for a while (until the casualties mount) but it needs something that hits a wee bit harder in support.

I also think that the better speed of mounted troops makes them useful in itself. They are still much more likely to get a flank charge off, perhaps not against Skaven or horde OnG but whenever it is at all possible.

yabbadabba
09-06-2010, 16:36
Infantry however kills even less than Knights, except perhaps GS. It may be able to hold opposing units in place for a while (until the casualties mount) but it needs something that hits a wee bit harder in support.

I also think that the better speed of mounted troops makes them useful in itself. They are still much more likely to get a flank charge off, perhaps not against Skaven or horde OnG but whenever it is at all possible.

Two things here. Your skaven opponent has the same issues with infantry, so you will actually kill something with your infantry. With your detachments, infantry on infantry you are better. This means that both of you are left worrying about the effects of the rest of the armies.

Second thing is that Empire knights are not Khorne Knights and unless tooled to the nines should not be taking units head on. On a supporting flank charge they will be devastating, and will mash most other units in the skaven army. So that leaves you worrying about his characters, doomwheel and HPA etc.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-06-2010, 18:05
I realize that on paper State Troops should come out on top against several Skaven infantry units but for some reason or the other, it rarely works out like this in my games. Apart from my opponent simply being the better player I reckon that it is because of his superior support units. I have little that I want to throw in the way of Plague Censer Bearers for example, not to mention Warpfire throwers. Another thing is that I am still not as familiar with the Skaven AB as I could be, so he's able to pull surprises.

Detachments don't work here. There IS no flank. In all likelihood, he scatters my detachments with magic and flanks me.

FORtheGREATERgood
09-06-2010, 18:19
Regular missile units simply don't do anything. I mean whether I kill a model or not doesn't change the balance much, not when he massacres my units in turn with single shots. I wish *I* had heavy flamers. :rolleyes: They're just too fast.



Well, I don't think I would have enough PD to power all these spells. Okay, you can throw a single die at a magic missile but if you fail on a 1 or 2, that's the magic phase for you, as a Lvl 1 backup often can't take up the slack.



Advancing is impossible as well. He goes first and moves up - if I move as well, he *will* charge. It may be less important in 8th but it is still important. Secondly, moving up makes him faster, so only something like Flagellants would be a road block.


In order, I agree regular missile firing state troops do not do much. Usually the only core that I have shooting is one or two units of crossbows. On the other hand, my unit of outriders can decimate units at a time all for around 105 points. I believe they are definitely worth it.

That's why the level one has a ring and you can easily just turn him into a level two. Person preference that works for me against my particular skaven opponent.

The empire can't win by throwing all your units at the opponent, but they also won't win by sitting back and waiting for your opponent. You want the unit matchups to be in your favor. This may require baiting with cheap units such as detachments of free company. They are cheap and won't cause panic in your units while helping improve your board position. He is going to try to advance all of his units together. If you can disrupt this, then you are a step closer to winning. So in this case you *do* want him to charge.

yabbadabba
09-06-2010, 18:49
I realize that on paper State Troops should come out on top against several Skaven infantry units but for some reason or the other, it rarely works out like this in my games. Apart from my opponent simply being the better player I reckon that it is because of his superior support units. I have little that I want to throw in the way of Plague Censer Bearers for example, not to mention Warpfire throwers. Another thing is that I am still not as familiar with the Skaven AB as I could be, so he's able to pull surprises.

Detachments don't work here. There IS no flank. In all likelihood, he scatters my detachments with magic and flanks me. Well, I am going to back out of this now because, to be honest, you have shot down most suggestions that have been given to you. In addition it sounds very much like you are letting your opponent lead you through the game, instead of imposing your plan on the game. I think the issues are with yourself, and not your army.

Malorian
09-06-2010, 19:46
If you think you can't win then you've already lost.

Von Wibble
09-06-2010, 21:03
Hmmmm im having the same trouble. My last 2 games saw my oponents getting wise to the warrior priest in my knights unit and both times now he has died through sheer weight of attacks directed at him before he even got to strike which is a pain as it nerfs the hatred re-rolls on my knights as well... so he has gone from the list as he is a points sink I dont think I need.

On the topic of inner circle knights - I don't think they are as useful anymore... these days I think its better to strike at S5 every round with basic WWKs than to waste extra points on S6 on the charge with lances, or to upgrade the WWKs to IC. Those extra few points can go towards much better things (such as upgrading a wizard lord to Lv4 or an extra dispel scroll, or even the war banner for your knights). At I3 and with 1 attack each IC knights just don't seem worth the points sink anymore.

Sounds like an unlucky warrior priest to me. With 6 attacks directed against him at most (or 12 attacks all at WS3 S3) you are looking at a lot of luck needed to inflict more than 1 wound, or you are facing elite units that empire knights would never succeed in breaking head on.

As far as IC goes, shields have actually got better against them so they aren't as good as they were. But being 2s to wound T4 troops means I wouldn't completely ignore them...

Empire crossbowmen outrange Dark Elves, and point for point are just as good at shooting even when he gets into range. Stand back a bit.

Lord Solar Plexus - as far as magic goes I think a level 4 and a warrior priest will be my own choice, with Aldred's casket and possibly doomfire ring somewhere. I'd consider a Luckstone as my final magic booster. This will mesn even if my L4 stops casting I have 3 bound spells I can throw power dice into - only the death of the L4 would kill off this magic phase (and losing 1 of 2 L2s is going to do a lot of damage so its not such a big difference).

As to shooting, if your shooting does only take out 2 models but those comprise his warpfire throwers, I'd say job done. Nasty as PCBs are, horde swordsmen have their number, killing on average 7 before they get to strike (gas is only going to affect front rank and you get a ward save too).

If detachments don't work just take shooting detachments and maybe smoe cheap diverting free company. Use them in a different way to just flank charges.

I think the main issue, as you say, is that you don't know the Skaven AB quite so well. It doesn't help that it has a huge amount of rules and units with 2 page descriptions either... I'd suggest seeing if you can buy/borrow it.

Phytrion
10-06-2010, 00:07
I'm working on building up a Napoleonic empire list (because I'm drooling to use the Perry Brothers awesome Napoleonic infantry), so here is my tentative 2250 list:

Lords:

Templar Grand Master @ 145

Heroes:

Lvl 2 Battle Wizard @ 100

Lvl 2 Battle Wizard @ 100

Core:

Swordsmen @ 329
24; Full Command; 2 detachments of 10 Handgunners

Swordsmen @ 249
24; Full Command; Detachment of 10 Handgunners

Knights @ 293
11 Knights; Full Command; Great Weapons

Special:

Cannon @ 100

Cannon @ 100

Cannon @ 100

Pistolliers @ 108
6 Men

Pistolliers @ 108
6 Men

Outriders @ 105 points
5 Men

Mortar @ 75 points

Mortar @ 75 points

Rare:

Helstrom Rocket Launcher @ 115

Total: 2102 (so I've got 148 to play with). I'm waiting for the new book to plug magic items in with my characters in case there are some good common magic items.

Thoughts?

Lord Solar Plexus
10-06-2010, 06:16
The empire can't win by throwing all your units at the opponent, but they also won't win by sitting back and waiting for your opponent. You want the unit matchups to be in your favor. This may require baiting with cheap units such as detachments of free company. They are cheap and won't cause panic in your units while helping improve your board position. He is going to try to advance all of his units together. If you can disrupt this, then you are a step closer to winning. So in this case you *do* want him to charge.

Good points, thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to see what I can use a as bait.



I think the issues are with yourself, and not your army.

I'm sorry if I made it sound that I was asking purely for list advice. I thought I never pretended it was any different. I'm abysmal at whatever passes for tactics in this game, I'm outplayed, outwitted, outdeployed, outmanouvered and constantly surprised at whatever happens, and I have no idea what I can do. I thought a Tactics thread could be helpful and offer something over and above the army list subforum. I realize it is difficult to give precise advice, so rest assured that I'm quite thankful for your suggestions.



Nasty as PCBs are, horde swordsmen have their number, killing on average 7 before they get to strike (gas is only going to affect front rank and you get a ward save too).


First of all he flank charged me. Then his character riding on that Rat Ogre took out my captain and the gas killed 2 Swordsmen. After this, he would have had 21 regular attacks at the same initiative step (we're both I4) vs. my remaining two Swordsmen.

I didn't even bother to roll any dice, ranks or not. Sorry for being so bitter but I *am* pretty frustrated with my own performance.

As it happened, I could lay my hands on a copy of the Skaven AB and will read it carefully before my next game.

nick_robinsonchia
10-06-2010, 06:53
Actually PCB's and plague monks are only init 3... Prob wasn't gonna change much since he had u flanked but still...just think what ur horde swords would do to him from the front.

Gluck

shelfunit.
10-06-2010, 07:52
A General on a Griffon will be a very good investement I think. Being a large target, he gains 6" to his Ld bubble. That means that our units can potentially be stubborn on Ld 9, or re-roll all psychology tests on Ld 9 if the BSB is there.

Are the stubborn rules changing then? As far as I was aware the stubborn unit could only use it's own leadership to be stubborn on (like now) - now if the Elector was inside the stubborn unit, then yes, they would use his leadership of 9 (as - I think - all of the unit [inc heroes] would count as stubborn under the "steadfast" [?] rules).

Sorry for all the brackets.

Seth the Dark
10-06-2010, 08:10
I currently use 3x3 detachments so I'm in a bit of a pickle. What will people use when the new rules come out?

Lord Solar Plexus
10-06-2010, 10:09
I'm playing with 5x3 currently. However, this is based on several assumptions. Without an FAQ, detachments that countercharge will hit first and hitting someone in the flank will reduce return attacks further, especially when you present a small frontage. 3x3 will usually contact 4 models. You probably get 6 attacks, 9 with FC, so if you can kill 1-2...but you still won't negate ranks.


Actually PCB's and plague monks are only init 3... Prob wasn't gonna change much since he had u flanked but still...just think what ur horde swords would do to him from the front.


Well, Ini didn't really matter anyways, I only had couple of S3 attacks against T4.

To clarify, I had 30 Swordsmen 5x6 wide. His flank charge contributed +2 to CR (flank + charge) and meant that I couldn't fight with a second rank. I also had no shield + HW ward save. We assumed that a flank charge would nullify steadfast but he did not negate my rank bonus. With ranks and standard, I did start with +2 but since he killed my Captain and a couple of Swordsmen even before his regular attacks, it was pretty much autowin.

As such, a frontal charge would have seen the Swordsmen losing as well, although they could have provided another two kills and would probably have held on re-rollable Ld 7.


Are the stubborn rules changing then?

That's what I gather, yes.

duffybear1988
10-06-2010, 14:33
Call me crazy (many people do) but I have been thinking about this all day at work and i'm convinced that 2 blocks of knights will be required for the empire army to stand any chance against most enemies. I mean lets face it we do get some bonuses from 8th edition, but so does everyone else, and our state troops just don't cut it i'm affraid.

Knights (due to their better skills, armour and speed) will become even more important as there are very few units that can break enemy units and still be able to fight again afterwards... what I mean is that if a unit of state troops takes on another block of enemy BASIC infantry then at best both units will be severley mauled, whoever wins. If state troops take on SPECIALIST infantry who have decent numbers then they will die painfully, but may stall the enemy for a turn (thats about all you can expect).

Now with their high strength, decent armour, and with speed on their side our knights become superb at breaking lines and punching their way through enemy units before reforming and flank/rear charging blocks, or taking out warmachines. No unit has this capability except knights in the Empire list, and lets not forget that they are pretty hard in combat (especially if joined by a character). In most games it will be the knights that kill the majority of enemies and break the most units mark my words... state troops are speed bumbs and nothing more.

The only problem is that most lists we have presented on here have 1 unit of knights at best and they will be targeted by every enemy ranged weapon I think. Therefore I am probably going to run quite a few knights so that I can make sustained charges and weather enemy shooting.

11 wolf knights and a captain or warrior priest will usually cause about 10 wounds at S5 or 6 on the charge, and with the charge bonus, a standard and a rank that puts you on a pretty good combat res score (much more than state troops could get), and if you are fighting standard infantry there is a good chance you will take no casualties or maybe just 1 which is reasonable. Now admittedly the enemy is probably still going to be stubborn but there is a chance they may break. And even if they don't then it is highly likely that the knights will kill a similar amount next turn, negating the enemy steadfast ability and likely breaking them, and then either reforming to charge a flank or rear, or running down the enemy.

If anything EMPIRE KNIGHTS got better with 8th edition as they can now bring more attacks to bear.

AND even if they don't break the enemy on the charge they will still put up more of a fight than state troops and are likely to break the enemy much quicker.

Well thats just my view after a few playtest games.

I expect to change my current lists considerably now - I will probably take 2 or 3 units on knights as well as a couple of units of pistoliers for close shooting and speed, as well as hellblasters, wizards, cannons, handgunners and hellstorms to take out high strength infantry that my knights need to avoid.

frapermax
10-06-2010, 16:34
Good point.
I even think Empire will be the only race that can field these blocks of 10-12 knights points wise. The trick will be to make them survive long enough to try and get to a flank.
Rule of thumb tactics could be:
Horde infantry against non horde armies, Knightblocks + diverters and speed bumps against hordes.
Both backed up by some serious shooting (HB, mortar, crossbows).
Another problem will be terrain. Our big blocks+detachment will often be hard to manoeuvre. When I play against empire, I always give them the most crowded terrain side (if I win roll). It really is a pain for infantry based empire.
some more things I noticed:
Engineers will finally be used a bit more I hope.

The OTT magic will be left out entirely now in our gaming group I think.
I like magic when it has a supporting role (give little buffs left and right, kill some troops), but I really hate it when it becomes game changing (creating 200+ points monsters or killing entire units for instance)

Outriders become pretty cool (more like real dragoons), riding out to take a firing position.

Annoying gunlines (of any race) will be used more I fear.
(makes me think about a game where none of my units made it across the middle of the board against a Chaos Dwarf - empire alliance with only 1 unit that couldn't shoot out of 12. Try play that against me again and I will destroy all your models by smashing your head into them.:evilgrin: Then I will use your cannons in Slaaneshi ways on your orifices and eat your pet goldfish)

Maybe Frenzy should get to strike first irrespective of I. That would help Flaggies (and savage orcs)

I'm actually pretty optimistic about 8th ed, apart from the Magic phase.

just my 2 cents.
FPM

Malorian
10-06-2010, 16:37
Maybe Frenzy should get to strike first irrespective of I. That would help Flaggies (and savage orcs)

So frenzy would become the new ASF? Don't think so ;)

Lord Solar Plexus
11-06-2010, 05:20
Yes, fighting with the second rank benefits our knights and they are cheap enough to take some more. I keep seeing more and more lists that include a big block instead of 2*5 vanilla, although I think that the latter can still be useful for supportive flank charges.

Re: Hammers - for some reason I don't like them. I think lances look much better. Have hammers really been a cavalry weapon? I'm afraid but knights with hammers look like carpenters. I've got a box of knight here somewhere but before I start to assemble them, I need to think it through. Are hammers the way to go in 8th? Do you think it would be outlandish if I used swords instead as 'counts as'?

On yet another note, is it possible to change the title of a thread so that we could use this one as the official Tactica once everything is finally out?

Templar47
11-06-2010, 10:09
Well, from the way I see and heard of it so far, this is what I'm probably planning to do with my army:

*I currently run my General on a Griffon, and even though the Pope-Mobile is a really good choice, the 18 leadership bubble will be really nice, but besides that I'm not sure how effective he will be since they changed the Fear and Terror rules. Hopefully there will be a common magic item that will allow my Griffon to get a at least a 5+ ward save (though I doubt it) but I can wish for it :).

*Upgrade both of my parent spearmen units and my Halberd unit to a grand total of 30x w/FC and shields (plus 2x WP and my BSB with them), with detachments of around 12x to 15 Swordsmen, but probably will either use 5x archer units as a cheap screen, or might as well upgrade my missile detachments to 10x handgunners.

*Since all missile units can fire in two ranks standard, a big unit or two of either crossbows or handgunners doesn't really seem like a bad idea.

*Big units of knights seem to be the way to go it seems in this edition, especially since the 2nd rank can also fight, so fielding my 9x I.C. Knight unit w/Warrior Priest seems to be a good idea. And even though GW are again +2 strength when mounted which will help the KOTWW quite a bit, the 1+ save for the standard knight w/a lance will still be very useful.

*GS in general I still believe will be effective, juts have to make sure they have a detachment or two to support them. Perhaps two 10x handgunner/Crossbow detachments to support them in holding down a flank :D.

*I've been considering in getting pistoliers, but with the Fast Calvary getting a free 12 inch move, Outriders look a bit more promising. And quick question, will outriders be able to fire over infantry units if they are behind them due to the new LOS rules?

*Cannons should be a bit more accurate thanks to no longer guessing, but the biggest change will be the no more partial's for template weapons and with the guessing rule gone, my H.S.R.B. is going to be a lot nastier, and I might even get a mortar while I'm at it :D.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-06-2010, 10:54
What is a good weapon for a TGM?



*I currently run my General on a Griffon, and even though the Pope-Mobile is a really good choice, the 18 leadership bubble will be really nice


Is the Pope Mobile not a large target? Because if it is, it would afaik give you the same radius as a GotE on a Griffon.



And quick question, will outriders be able to fire over infantry units if they are behind them due to the new LOS rules?


Very likely they will. Even infantry models will often be able to shoot *through* other units but I would assume a -2 modifier for shooting through ranked units, which makes it only marginally useful.

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 11:03
Do you think it would be outlandish if I used swords instead as 'counts as'?


I don't think it would be outlandiwsh at all. I use Brets so there is an entire unit armed the same way. On that note I am now intending to make a conversion using Bret Knights and Greatswords for Questing Knights which I think will be quite cool and, although expensive, will be cheaper than actually buying Questing Knights.

-PurchasedPig-

duffybear1988
11-06-2010, 13:12
i find the sword of sigismund to be best for a grandmaster. S5 and ASF with 4 attacks that you get to reroll thanks to his higher initiative can really help out if you end up facing elite units like swordmasters, black guard, executioners, etc. Stuff where every extra wound caused is 1or 2 less attacks back.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 13:33
On that note I am now intending to make a conversion using Bret Knights and Greatswords for Questing Knights which I think will be quite cool and, although expensive, will be cheaper than actually buying Questing Knights.

-PurchasedPig-

I think they would look great :)

Not familiar with the new greatsword sprue no know how hard of a conversion that would be.

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 13:41
I think they would look great :)

Not familiar with the new greatsword sprue no know how hard of a conversion that would be.

Luckily with Bret Knights the arms are separate and the same is true of Greatswords. Shouldn't be too hard. Just need to work up the cash to afford it now! I'll be getting it at the same time as a couple of Bret Battalions to get me more Peasants!

-PurchasedPig-

Malorian
11-06-2010, 13:50
Luckily with Bret Knights the arms are separate and the same is true of Greatswords. Shouldn't be too hard. Just need to work up the cash to afford it now! I'll be getting it at the same time as a couple of Bret Battalions to get me more Peasants!

-PurchasedPig-

Oh now I understand. At first I thought you meant it would be bret from the waist down and great sword from the waist up.

If it's just an arm/head swap then that should be amazingly easy.


It's not even really that expensive as a box of real questing knights are $65 so you need to spend $130 for a full lance, and mean while it's $42 for the bret knights and the greatswords are $49.50 so $91.50 and even if you buy a second box of knights so you have 9 or 10 then it's still just $133.

So for $3 more you get the unit in plastic plus a bunch more bret knights.

Awesome idea :D

Templar47
12-06-2010, 05:27
i find the sword of sigismund to be best for a grandmaster. S5 and ASF with 4 attacks that you get to reroll thanks to his higher initiative can really help out if you end up facing elite units like swordmasters, black guard, executioners, etc. Stuff where every extra wound caused is 1or 2 less attacks back. Well, I 'd rather shoot at swordmasters and black guard before they reach my lines, but thats just me.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-06-2010, 09:15
Hey, I actually won my first game against Skaven yesterday, yippie! I won't go into a full-fledged batrep but here's the rough lists:

TGM, White Cloak
Lvl 4, Armour of Tarnus

BSB, Sword of Might
WP, HA, ench. shield, GW
WP, HA, barded horse, GW, Aldred's casket

30 Halberdiers, det. of 15 Swordsmen
30 Swordsmen, det. of 15 Halberdiers
9 Knights w/ lances
9 knights w/ GW

20 Greatswords, det. of 6 handgunners
2 Great Cannon

vs. "The Rat Carpet"

Skrolk
Warlock Engineer
Chieftain
BSB
a hero with a whip who boosted the Giant rat's abilities

100 Slaves
2*30+ Clanrats, full command, w/ 2 WFT
39 Giant rats, champion

4 Rat Ogres with two handlers
2 HPA's

On my left, the Greatswords held the flank for a couple of turns against the Rats and one Abom. They were finally slaughtered by the multitude of attacks, many of whom ignored their armour but they bought my other prongs some valuable time.

On my right, both knight blocks wept wide and then veered towards the centre. Here, the biggest fight I've ever seen took place - my Halberdiers had charged a unit of Clanrats who sadly held on snake eyes. In return, the enormous rat carpet unit charged them in one flank and the Ogres in the other. I lost some 16 or 18 men in that fight but luckily, the rats directed many attacks towards my WP who shrugged them all of - both WP had the 4+ Sv and unbreakable going at this time, so my Halberdiers held.

Then the first unit of knights slammed into the Ogres (no fear test thanks to the TGM), while on the other half of the table, my Swordsmen joined the same huge combat by rear charging the 100 death frenzied slaves (now down to 80 or so), and a detachment charged their flank. The ensuing slaughter was massive, albeit a little lopsided. I did lose another 9 or 10 Halberdiers but he lost 3 Ogres, their adjutants or handlers and handfuls of Slaves and Rats. He only had two ranks with the Clanrats but I had flanks, rear, kills, charge...even with the BSB, he didn't roll snake eyes and lost all three units.

The end game saw one HPA charged by my GW knights. It had previously suffered three wounds and now suffered one more - I barely won the fight, he rolled 9 and off the table it was. My remaining Swordsmen got charged and killed by the Giant rats (I still cannot believe how strong these are. Okey, they had character support but still...). Regrettably, this included my Wizard and BSB. The GW knights got charged by the last unit of Clanrats but held (with the lances coming up from behind) - and with that, the game ended.

In the end, I had some 100 points more than he did.

RanaldLoec
13-06-2010, 10:11
Lord plexus congratulations on your victory.

So guys and girls grestswords in 8th ed.

With a decent size unit 20 to 30 I personnelly favour 24 in a 6 by 4 with stepping up rule we will actually get to strike back and cause some damage.

I always found in 7th ed that my opponent knowing the gs are an elite I use that word in the empire sense of elite. Would target my gs with knights, swordmasters, chaos warriors, temple guard, blackguard or some other nasty.

My theory is with a big enough unit we will finally be able to strike with more than a couple of models upping the damage gs can do.

Any one else considering making greater use of there greatswords?

Lord Solar Plexus
13-06-2010, 10:36
Thank-you. :)

My experience with Great Swords is the same: They usually end up fighting units that will eventually kill them, HPA's, Doomwheels, this kind of opponent, simply because both will end up on a flank more often than not.

Having said that, I think they are quite useful. Being naturally stubborn on decent Ld means they are quite likely to hold out for some time. I have started to field them 6 wide (usually 20 men) and quite often they take a respectable number of enemies with them.

Of course there are other uses than to anchor a flank on their own. Having the unbreakable prayer actually go off also means that simple State troops can often fulfill the same role.

Shield of Freedom
13-06-2010, 10:38
Yes, Greatswords will actually be able to fight in the new edition. However, I always felt that the role of Greatswords wasn't to kill anything at all. Their job was to stand and die. If they got some attacks in, great, but they were there to use Stubborn and Ld8 to hold a line while I lined up a flank charge, or to die to the last man holding up that ugly unit I wanted to avoid.

So really, Greatswords were always a good choice for me, now I can actually count on 10 - 11 S5 attacks back in the first couple of rounds of combat. Whether I have more ranks or not I'll always be stubborn. Not bad at all.

Now if only they weren't $41US for ten of them!

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 11:20
The other thing about greatswords was that in 7th they were cmopeting wuith other special choices. You only get 4 in an army at 2500, and its only rarely that I don't take 2 cannons and 2 units of pistoliers.

Now with percentages those units are all quite cheap so I have room for the greatswords.

I am considering that horde may be the way to go with a unit of 30. Its expensive but not much more than a 10 man unit of knights, and if a warrior priest is there then 30 rerollable S5 attacks will always hurt.

duffybear1988
13-06-2010, 14:13
Great news on the win there Lord Solar.

As for greatswords I think they are one of the coolest units we have to offer and if I had more figures I would bumb them up to 25 models instead of 20 (I play a Middenheim themed list and use the teutogen guard models which are hard to get these days).

Im actually considering running them at my centre with 30 spearmen on one side and 30 halberdiers on the other (both with 15 man detatchments). I think maybe an arch lector will join them as my general.

Shield of Freedom
13-06-2010, 18:10
Another thing I've noticed about the proposed changes is the effect it's having on Halberdiers. There were countless posts on several sites trying to figure out what to do with these guys. Then these rumors come out and now people are choosing them OVER swordsmen in almost every case! I see swordsmen as a great detatchment force, and spearmen/halberdiers as the majority of parent/solo units myself.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-06-2010, 15:44
I took a cursory look at the list of magical items and banners and I must say, a few look actually useful. ;) A very affordable standard of discipline on a unit of GS for Ld 9 is pretty cool, as is the Standard of murder (re-roll attacks)* - a little more than half the price of a WP and re-rolls in every round. Armour piercing on Halberds or GW sounds good too - and is within the GotE's limit. Fire attacks nearly for free...nifty.

In the same vein, a 2+ armour is nice when you've already used the AoMI, although it comes at a price. The Dragon's Helmet is another neat and inexpensive item.

*Edit - screw that, it supposedly allows re-rolling the charge distance.

Malorian
14-06-2010, 16:46
Another thing I've noticed about the proposed changes is the effect it's having on Halberdiers. There were countless posts on several sites trying to figure out what to do with these guys. Then these rumors come out and now people are choosing them OVER swordsmen in almost every case! I see swordsmen as a great detatchment force, and spearmen/halberdiers as the majority of parent/solo units myself.

My buddy started out with all his troops havnig halberds because he thought cool.

After a few losses people blamed it on them and so he had to go and get a bunch of swordmen...

I hope he kept his old models...


The better initiative on the swordmen might help them out some times, but in general I think you are right, having all those str 4 attacks will be better off for you in the long run.

Templar47
15-06-2010, 01:38
I agree with you 100% Shield of Freedom. Most people I played laughed or where surprised when I placed 2x units of 25x spearmen and a unit of 25x Halberds on the field. "What, no swordsmen?" was the general response. Even though swordsmen will still be good in the next edition, Halberds will definitely improve thanks to the new rules, and having a lot of S4 attacks is a really good thing, especially for the empire. I'm planning to run 2x units of 30x Spearmen in a 5x6 formation, and as for the Halberds, I pan to field 30x of them but I'm still debating on whenever to field them in a 6x5 or a 5x6 formation. Which one do u think would better for Halberds.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2010, 01:52
Yes, fighting with the second rank benefits our knights and they are cheap enough to take some more. I keep seeing more and more lists that include a big block instead of 2*5 vanilla, although I think that the latter can still be useful for supportive flank charges.

Re: Hammers - for some reason I don't like them. I think lances look much better. Have hammers really been a cavalry weapon? I'm afraid but knights with hammers look like carpenters. I've got a box of knight here somewhere but before I start to assemble them, I need to think it through. Are hammers the way to go in 8th? Do you think it would be outlandish if I used swords instead as 'counts as'?


Screw hammers, make your Knights with Greatswords, theres nothing to say that a great weapon armed Knight has to have a greathammer. The Knights of the Everlasting Light arm themselves with greatswords, I've been planning a conversion using the plastic greatswords to make KotEL, all I'm waiting for now is some plastic knights that are actually worth converting with.

Seth the Dark
15-06-2010, 03:48
Screw hammers, make your Knights with Greatswords, theres nothing to say that a great weapon armed Knight has to have a greathammer. The Knights of the Everlasting Light arm themselves with greatswords, I've been planning a conversion using the plastic greatswords to make KotEL, all I'm waiting for now is some plastic knights that are actually worth converting with.

May I ask where you got the info on the Knights of the Everlasting List?

Lord Solar Plexus
15-06-2010, 06:15
I'm still debating on whenever to field them in a 6x5 or a 5x6 formation. Which one do u think would better for Halberds.

With the 6x5 formation, you gain 2 attacks. With LA, you are likely to to lose most fights even when you inflict quite some casualties. In that case, you will want to have more ranks to be steadfast.

If however you can make them unbreakable with a prayer, you don't need to worry about losing and should go for more attacks.


Screw hammers, make your Knights with Greatswords

I made up my mind and used a mix of hammers and swords. Looks okay I think.


May I ask where you got the info on the Knights of the Everlasting List?

The Red Knights of Baharia do them same, and GS are mandatory for the order of Karl-Heinz Rummenigge...you get the gist?

Shield of Freedom
15-06-2010, 08:55
I would propose that Empire players should never take less than 30 models per unit for standard state troops. 6 wide, 5 deep looks better on the table and will afford you some more attacks. However, it's hard to argue with having 6 ranks allowing to stay stubborn longer in fights. The problem with that is, you won't have staying power for long. If you have a detatchment (wich can now number 15 models with a 30 strong parent unit) your flank plus ranks, plus breaking enemy ranks, should allow you a "win" despite casualties against MOST units.

Otherwise, the only reason to be stubborn is to hold long enough for a hammer unit to flank when it's your turn. Knights come to mind as the only real choice here. Steam tank too maybe, but you probably won't have more than one of these.

Greatswords, being stubborn even if only one model remains, can get away with being 20 or less strong still. Unless you want a decent detatchment of course.

So... I guess I'm saying that I'll try 6 wide on my halberdiers first, but I won't be suprised if the optimal formation becomes 5 wide in 6 ranks.

Rhaivaen
15-06-2010, 10:05
May I ask where you got the info on the Knights of the Everlasting List?

They are mentioned in Uniforms and Heraldry "The Empire", but they are drawn as regular run of the mill lance and shield knights with a unlucky habitual streak haunting them, that's all..:D

PurchasedPig
15-06-2010, 10:31
I would propose that Empire players should never take less than 30 models per unit for standard state troops. 6 wide, 5 deep looks better on the table and will afford you some more attacks. However, it's hard to argue with having 6 ranks allowing to stay stubborn longer in fights. The problem with that is, you won't have staying power for long. If you have a detatchment (wich can now number 15 models with a 30 strong parent unit) your flank plus ranks, plus breaking enemy ranks, should allow you a "win" despite casualties against MOST units.

Otherwise, the only reason to be stubborn is to hold long enough for a hammer unit to flank when it's your turn. Knights come to mind as the only real choice here. Steam tank too maybe, but you probably won't have more than one of these.

Greatswords, being stubborn even if only one model remains, can get away with being 20 or less strong still. Unless you want a decent detatchment of course.

So... I guess I'm saying that I'll try 6 wide on my halberdiers first, but I won't be suprised if the optimal formation becomes 5 wide in 6 ranks.


I agree with a lot of the things here, definitely at least 30 models per unit. I don't particularly agree with the seeming general consensus of Halberdiers > Swordsmen now though. They have definitely improved but the biggest problem was always having the durability of wet toilet paper and that still holds but against bigger enemy units now. I think I will use bigger detachments of them but Empire have always been about surviving until something scary can counter-attack and I think that still makes Swordsmen better, especially with the Ward Save. I will, however, be testing both and am willing to change my mind if the 10-ish WS3, S4 attacks actually do significantly more damage than 10-ish WS4, S3 attacks.

On an alternative note I will always be using 5x6 as no matter the configuration Empire can't kill squat. The only exceptions are Greatswords and Flagellants. I am quite excited about small units of Greatswords killing big things but much MORE excited about giant units of Flagellants going crazy and massacring everything with re-rollable S5 Attacks in Horde formation.

Note: Flagellants could be the one main contender with MoK Marauders for optimal Horde unit, especially since they are Unbreakable and so don't have to worry about being counter-attacked.

-PurcahsedPig-

Lord Solar Plexus
15-06-2010, 14:27
Well, Swordsmen are certainly more survivable than Halberdiers but the latter actually kill a few models each time. That can be enough to whittle the enemy unit down enough so that it is combat ineffective. It is somewhat situational.

Swordsmen are even better as detachments I think. I am convinced that the combat sequence will be FAQ'ed to comply with the main rules and we still want to cancel rank boni. Therefore it is imperative that enough men survive, and no-one is better at that than Swordsmen.

I too think units of 30 are the way to go for parent units of State troops. Giant units will suffer from having little flank protection. At the same time, I don't think that many units of State troops are a good idea. They all make decent enough anvils against many enemy units but you still need a hammer, preferrably two.

PurchasedPig
15-06-2010, 15:11
At the same time, I don't think that many units of State troops are a good idea. They all make decent enough anvils against many enemy units but you still need a hammer, preferrably two.

I very much agree with this, I'm thinking 2 big units with 1/2 detachments ech and 20 Greatswords with 1/2 detachments as anvils with Knights/Flagellants/Tanks/Popemobile being hammers. Balance up with as many Cannons/Mortars (esp. Mortars) as you can.

I will also probably be taking 2 Arch-Lectors for the +4 Dispel Dice. This is scarily possible in 2250pts and allows for a Popemobile and hammer knights.

-PurchasedPig-

Lord Solar Plexus
15-06-2010, 15:53
Depending on the opposition, a unit of Swordsmen led by a character can be as good an anvil as Greatswords. They won't be always steadfast of course but they are likely to have more ranks - in some cases, the 6++ is even better than full plate. I mean surely there will still be some characters with GW's!

Did I mention the Standard of Discipline? (I did but it's a rhetorical question.) Barring a veritable effort on our opponents' part, a unit of GS with this thing isn't going anywhere. I haven't made my mind up whether I'm going to use this setup or Flagellants...the latter die in droves even to the lowliest opponent, so being unbreakable might not mean that much.

PurchasedPig
15-06-2010, 16:54
I'm very happy with the idea of the Flagellants under the new rules as they suffer nothing by going horde apart from maneuvrability and, as such, can get a lot of high-strength attacks (with sacrifices of course) and still NEVER break. Of course they never broke before either but the attacks are now about doubling with high strength and re-rolls.

Incindentally LordSolar why not just go for both? They work very well in tandem as they can both be Hammers and Anvils.

-PurchasedPig-

Lord Solar Plexus
15-06-2010, 18:20
Well, the thing is that I did use both in the past. Only very recently did I swap out the Flaggies for more knights, or shall I say I completely rewrote my list with 8th in mind, as we are playing with what we now for, oh, half a dozen games already. With the strong cavalry force, I suddenly win. Of course that may well be because of my opponent's list or because I'm becoming a better player or whatnot but I am loathe to change a winning team.

Malorian
15-06-2010, 18:23
Lord Solar Plexus, how are your knights finding the random charge distance? Are you finding that often you come up short and/or get charged instead by infantry?

Privateer
15-06-2010, 20:31
Hi, I am following this thread for a while now and find the whole discussion very interesting and educational.

I still cannot find a good use in 8th. for the flaggies. I mean, unless you take an AL, they'll take %ages from you rares. Which you might need for hellblasters etc.

Also , for a band of 20 Flaggies, I could get 36 halberds / Spearmen or 29 swordsmen with full command . ........

I love my GS and want them in, but have similar problems to justify the points they cost vs. more state troops or more knights....or another cannon / mortar ....
help me out, fellow lads from the empire...

Malorian
15-06-2010, 20:42
Swordmen/halberds/spearmen will mainly be there to die, unless put in horde formation in which case you risk breaking.

Greatswords on the other hand pack a bigger punch, have a better save, and are stubborn no matter what.

Privateer
15-06-2010, 21:40
Swordmen/halberds/spearmen will mainly be there to die, unless put in horde formation in which case you risk breaking.

Greatswords on the other hand pack a bigger punch, have a better save, and are stubborn no matter what.

Yep I know what GS can do, but can they do so much more than state in the future ? Stubborn is fine but that still doesn't save them from breaking - unless certain characters go with them, of course, but that would hold true for state as well.But with their low Ini, they might suffer more in 8th. then under current rules...hmmm.

In the past, and still in the fluff, we had also a Reiksguard on foot, elite-fighters, heavy armour, shields, sword. Without large weapons, they were basically like heavy armoured swordmen but with better stats then state swordsmen.

Wish I could have them back instead of he GS. Maybe I should make some room for the new allies...

Mudkip
15-06-2010, 22:00
A few things in favour of Greatswords:

*You can get a BSB in addition to the 4 characters you normally used to take which helps a lot with stubborn.
*You can also use the general's leadership for stubborn checks.
*Every unit that doesn't have hw+shield or spears got better because those weapons got relatively worse (hand weapons lost their improved save, spears only get +50% extra attacks compared to halberds and greatswords getting 100% extra) so they should statistically perform better than they did in 7th edition against those units.
*they now actually have a superior save compared to most infantry in melee.
*stepping up rule means striking last is not as much of a disadvantage anymore, the greatswords will get their full number of attacks as long as you have models left.
*no more autobreaking from fear-causing enemies mean they can fight to the last man!

20 Greatswords vs 30 swordsmen both with command in 7th edition: Greatswordss do 2 kills to swordsmen's 1, meaning they draw thanks to swordsmen outnumber bonus.

In 8th edition: Swordsmen still only do 1 kill, but greatswords do 4 back. There's no outnumber bonus so the Greatswords win by 3. Of course the swordsmen are stubborn but you can see that they have grown more powerful.

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:06
In 8th edition: Swordsmen still only do 1 kill, but greatswords do 4 back. There's no outnumber bonus so the Greatswords win by 3. Of course the swordsmen are stubborn but you can see that the rules chanegs have made Greatswords relatively more powerful in melee.

And it doesn't take long before the greatswords have killed enough so that the swordmen don't have mroe ranks and thus aren't stubborn.


Also note that the greatswords could have been deployed 7 wide since they don't need the ranks for their stubborn.

This way the swordmen still kill 1 (0.75) and the greatswords kill 5 (4.9)

They still win by 3 but now they are chopping down a full rank each round.

Privateer
15-06-2010, 22:30
Hi Mudkip,

thanks for lifting the curtain on the "new" GS ; nice and clear overview - which makes me think they aren't that bad after all and will still have role to play. Which I like....

Edit after having read 2nd. part of your reply :
These stats look very convincing to me and save the day regarding usefulness of GS under 8.
Also, your idea with 7 wide intrigues me.

If I go for 27 GS in a regiment including FC plus a WP or Captain with one of the new magic things, that might really do the trick and the regiment becomes a hammer instead of being an anvil.

When I am back from travelling / vacation , I'll do a couple test fights at home with the new rules in mind and see how the GS perform.

Anyone considering Ogres as allies / mercs in an 8th. army ?

rgds.
Stefan

Seth the Dark
15-06-2010, 23:38
I would say unless you already have the Ogre models, I would way to see what happens when a new books comes out.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-06-2010, 06:18
Hey Privateer, a Warrior Priest is good value and allows you to buy core Flaggies. I personally would prefer to have 20 of the maniacs over 29 Swordsmen. Of course I already field a unit of the latter, so a second one would not accomplish much.

Great Swords haven't let me down lately. They usually died to a man but would tie up and attrite enemy units and so do a pretty good job at securing a flank.

I am very probably biased with regard to cannon and mortars and any kind of other utterly useless waste-of-point-Empire-missile-units :eek: :mad:

Regardless. Why don't we get in a test game when you're back?

Privateer
16-06-2010, 06:46
Lord Solar,
good advice, thanks - and yes I'll p.m. you when I am back from vacation - let's test our ideas...:-)

Privateer
16-06-2010, 06:51
I would say unless you already have the Ogre models, I would way to see what happens when a new books comes out.

Hello Seth,
no I don't have the models yet. Last time I played mercs / allies with an empire army was in 1990....by then, it were mainly dwarfs - which lead in the end to a complete 2nd. army of dwarfs - which I play today as well. Added only a few new citadel models. I have plenty of old Grenadier and Marauder Dwarfs, cannons, organ gun etc....

Slacker
16-06-2010, 13:47
I'm actually considering a Maneater or two now that I'm not slot-capped but rather points capped in my rares. 1 Steam Tank and a Hellblaster is only 410, which gives you points to play with even at 2K, let alone the 3K that I think people are going to play.

I read the new rule book carefully. Halberds are officially two handed weapons, so you can't get a shield bonus with them in close combat, although I guess you could still go HW/Shield with them. I'm leaning more heavily towards the giant block of halbs with the 20 man swordsman detachment now.

50% on characters is ridiculous, the potential in terms of cheap hero spam is absurd now. I'm going to work up a 3000 point list and post it tonight, I expect it's going to be a bit on the pants-on-head-retarded front in some respects compared to what we're used to.

ChrisIronBrow
17-06-2010, 00:08
So, I've been running some numbers, And I think a 30 man unit of Knights of the White wolf as core, led by either an AL, or WP, or pref both for redundancy of hatred is going to be an incredible hammer unit, while mostly functioning as an anvil and flanker. It's pricey, but it's hardly bad compared to other army's elite uber units, and the sheer number of 2+ armor save wounds gives it incredible reliability. While Horde rules gives it 3rank fighting with str 5.


I think it's going to be a solid choice.

Mudkip
17-06-2010, 00:17
I wouldn't describe a 700+ points unit as a "solid choice". Just because the horde rule exists doesn't mean you have to use it.

ChrisIronBrow
17-06-2010, 00:30
I wouldn't describe a 700+ points unit as a "solid choice". Just because the horde rule exists doesn't mean you have to use it.

and yet, in 7th 700+ point dragon riding characters were solid choices. I think the points are nearly irrelevant, what matters is it's performance.

Mudkip
17-06-2010, 01:08
A dragon is hardly a like-for-like comparison because in 8th edition the rules are going to change (ranks give stubborn etc) so that hammer units are less effective without support. I'm confident that you get more performance out of 700-900 points (depending on priest) than a single, unwieldy unit of knights.

A single, massive unit of expensive models will not defeat a properly constructed army because you'll be sacrificing too much of your supporting elements. Look at what you could get in comparison:

Arch Lector w/ grt wpn armour and steed 158 pts
29 Knights w/ command 707 pts
865 pts together !!!!

vs

10 Knights w/ command 290 points
great cannon 100 points
40 halberdiers w/ command (5 wide 8 deep) 205 points
BSB w/ armour 83 pts

693 points in total

I think it's safe to say that the more expensive KotWW aren't going to win that fight or generally outperform those units. I just took that combination to demonstrate that a combined-arms force will likely defeat the elite horde unit on a regular basis. Almost any army book could come up with a similar roster of units for the equivalent points.

So let's have less "what about a horde of elite unit x" type scenarios. The difference is that cheaper hordes can be taken alongside properly sized armies rather than instead of them. And it's often the case that elite horde units actually lose point-for-point against cheap horde units (check the horde comparison thread). Sometimes they even lose when the cheaper horde has spent less than half the points.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2010, 05:14
Apparently the WP now does not add the power level of his prayer to his roll. That's extremely frustrating. He obviously still isn't supposed to use them. Makes me wonder why he even *has* prayers. Whatever, regarding his usefulness, we're back to square one; it's close to zero.

Slacker
17-06-2010, 09:12
I disagree. There's no negative to a warrior priest 'miscasting'-they just can't pray any more that phase. I think WPs are going to be the new way to secret-spam cast a bit, especially if you have a War Altar and it's hammering out the Lore of Light stuff too. The big question on the WA is can it cast the uprated versions of the various spells and what its target number will be if it does. I wrote a list up with two WPs, the Arch Lector on the Popemobile, and still have enough room for the rest of my army, a BSB, and an Engineer for the hell of it. That's potentially four or five prayers going off a turn, and you've got a 50/50 shot of being able to do 1-dice casting if you wind up with a relatively low dice total for your magic phase.

WP magic, while not exactly spectacular, is now the most reliable in the game pretty much. I would think Chaos Dwarfs using the Indy GT book are going to be awesome for much the same reason.

Mudkip
17-06-2010, 10:36
I don't think you need the war altar so much anymore, because you have to use dice to cast the spell without any bonuses you'd get from an actual wizard. If you roll 2 dice to cast a Light spell from the WA and get a 7, your opponent's level 2 only has to get a 5 on 2 dice to dispell it, a level 4 could even risk one dice to dispel it on a 3. So the free spell is not a great attraction anymore.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2010, 14:56
I disagree. There's no negative to a warrior priest 'miscasting'-they just can't pray any more that phase.


Yes, but that pales when you recognize that there is nothing positive about him praying either - unless you are up against a force without wizards, it seems highly unlikely that you will ever get a prayer off. The War Altar is affected in the same way. I don't see it "hammering out" anything at -4.

Adding the level would make them useful. Without this, we're back to paying 90 points for hatred and that is plainly too steep for my taste - YMMV.



WP magic, while not exactly spectacular, is now the most reliable in the game pretty much.


I honestly don't see any reason why you would say that. Spells that you cannot get through are the opposite of reliable. With no wizards, you won't have a magic phase to speak of and I wonder how you are going to dispell anything worth dispelling with your list. Heck, I've played games (with what we know of the rules) with 2 Lvl 2's against one Lvl 4 and my opponent completely and utterly dominated the magic phase.

PurchasedPig
17-06-2010, 15:22
It is important to note though that now Dispel dice and Power Dice levels are intrinsically linked the +1/+2 Dispel dice granted by Priests/Lectors is a much bigger bonus - more noticeably when combined with a Wizard for the +2 to dispel.

As for Prayers I'm not sure either way. I think they have their place now because a lot of players will be throwing large piles of dice into 'real spells' that the opponent will be desperate to save dispel dice for. If he lets a cheeky Power Level 7 prayer go (assuming 2 dice) then it could be very useful. Especially for things like Unbreakable prayer and re-rolls at a pivotal moment. I don't think they've been affected much either positively or negatively - they're just different now. The War Altar, on the other hand, is a pretty big blow. The best thing is if you have more Light Wizards in your army (I will anyway) and spam a 3/4 dice Exorcism every turn.

-PurchasedPig-

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2010, 15:57
If they would still generate DD that would be true. Since they do not but channel normally, they have no advantage over a wizard. I don't know but saying that they are good because of the prayers is like taking a Lvl 1 in 7th because of the awesome offensive magic phase he gives.

Every opponent can save his dice for the big spells and dispell your power 4 prayer on his turn - whatever suits him best.

You are also overlooking that your ability to spam anything isn't something you can control.

PurchasedPig
17-06-2010, 16:02
Apologies I did not realise that they do not generate Dispel dice now. Would you mind telling me how has this been worked out?

I agree that the Prayers are not a reason to take a Priest, only a marginal boon. If they don't get Dispel dice then my Hero level Warrior Priest will see even fewer games than last edition (and that's not a lot)

-PurchasedPig-

kiron
17-06-2010, 16:15
okay, with the restrictions lifted, why not just take 2 lords in 2k lists?

archlector on popemobile with 1+ AS magical armor and GW and a lvl 4 wizard lord with rod of power (assuming no penalty for unused dice, if yes than take luckstone or dispel scroll or drop GW for VHS) for 496 points? Gives a really strong magic phase (2 extra dispel dice and +4 dispel/casting plus 3 bound spells) as well as ld. 9.

Or if you REALLY want to neuter enemy magic, just take 2 archlectors (on foot) and a lvl 4 wizard lord to get your 4 extra dispel dice and +4 to dispel in 2k, will wreck any magic army.

PurchasedPig
17-06-2010, 16:28
I think I will be going for two lords although I reckon one will be a General with next to no equipment as a cheap leader giving someone the ability to have a Magic Banner (hint hint: Ld 9 Greatswords) and letting the other do his thing without fear of mega retribution to the rest of your army.

That will either be a Pope-mobile or a Wizard Lord depending on whether the Arch-Lector still gives Dispel Dice.

-PurchasedPig-

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2010, 17:02
That's what I've been told during the May demo games here in Germany. I very explicitly asked about this on several occasions and the manager said she had all the FAQ's. I think someone else confirmed it but I don't remember if it was here or on Warhammer Empire.

Slacker
17-06-2010, 17:44
The reason for the popemobile is because it extends the AL's LD9 bubble to 18". For all taking the cheap general to give the Greatswords the LD9 banner, isn't it more worth it to give functionally your entire army LD9? And have a general that's not a poop sandwich?

As for not getting off prayers, you're going to be working with an average of 7 dice a magic phase to an average of 3.5 dispel dice. That means you can have three 2 dice prayers and 1 1 dice prayer or bound item or whatever. Probability wise, they're not going to be able to stop more than one of those spells, and you're telling me you can't get a 4+ on 2D6 reliably? I grant you, a lot of our prayers are 'meh' at best, not necessarily the most amazing things ever created, but you're going to be able to get the lore of light spell off easily and there's NO downside if you miscast. "oh, that priest's done this turn, okay".

That's why I call it the most reliably. For all there's no + to the dice roll, all that does is make a 3 on 1D6 a failure just as a 1 and 2 already are. If you go the 1 dice spam route it means you've got a 50% chance of a spell going off instead of a 66% chance. Statistically speaking there's still not enough dispel dice to stop more than about a third of the spells you're casting.

duffybear1988
17-06-2010, 17:48
I have it confirmed by a friend who has seen the faq as well... the +1 dispel dice for WP's and AL's is no more! So back to the drawing board for lists then I think (i'm actually tempted to take my dwarfs as my main army instead now as they seem a lot better).

I spoke to a few gamers in my area and they insist on keeping the points levels the same (2000-2250 pts) and I don't think empire really get good until 2500 pts these days, im not sure if staying low on points is a good thing to be honest... what with us having to take huge hammer units now, and a Lv4 wizard being pretty much compulsory it seems...


As for not getting off prayers, you're going to be working with an average of 7 dice a magic phase to an average of 3.5 dispel dice. That means you can have three 2 dice prayers and 1 1 dice prayer or bound item or whatever. Probability wise, they're not going to be able to stop more than one of those spells, and you're telling me you can't get a 4+ on 2D6 reliably? I grant you, a lot of our prayers are 'meh' at best, not necessarily the most amazing things ever created, but you're going to be able to get the lore of light spell off easily and there's NO downside if you miscast. "oh, that priest's done this turn, okay".


Actually I think you will end up seeing a lot more gamers using their power dice to dispel RiP spells in their own magic phases as most of them are quite nasty.

If anything WP's and AL's are worse now than they were in 7th ed.

Personally I hate the new system of random power and dispel dice - it just seems so silly. I mean you could field an army with one level 1 wizard and roll a 10 for your power dice (lets say you roll two 5's), now that gives the other player 5 dispel dice. Now lets assume the other player takes a level 4 and a level 2 wizard, he/she rolls and gets 3 power dice (lets say they roll a 1 and a 2 on the dice) that gives you 2 dispel dice. Now why is it fair that someone who has gone and put very few points into magic ability gets a decent amount of power dice, whilst the person who has sunk a fair few points into magic is left stunted for that entire phase? And don't say that wont happen very often because I just rolled 2 dice ten times and it happened to me four times out of those ten.

Im tempted to almost ignore magic altogether and stock up on warmachines/knights and the like to smash the enemy as magic seems even more risky than it was before.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2010, 18:25
As for not getting off prayers, you're going to be working with an average of 7 dice a magic phase to an average of 3.5 dispel dice.


I think that is a highly unrealistic assumption. People will bring stuff to enhance their DD pool if they can.



That means you can have three 2 dice prayers and 1 1 dice prayer or bound item or whatever. Probability wise, they're not going to be able to stop more than one of those spells


Your opponent is at +4 to each of his rolls. He could dispell your 2-dice prayers with a single one if he feels like it - and if that doesn't work, he simply rolls a single die again in HIS magic phase.

Also, every magic phase that you get only one or two dice more is just a waste of time.

Skyros
17-06-2010, 20:26
As for not getting off prayers, you're going to be working with an average of 7 dice a magic phase to an average of 3.5 dispel dice.

No, you'll have 7 dice to 4 dice. Average. Or it could be 7 to 5, or 7 to 6.
It's never going to be 7 to 3 or 3.5. That's mathematically impossible.



That means you can have three 2 dice prayers and 1 1 dice prayer or bound item or whatever. Probability wise, they're not going to be able to stop more than one of those spells

What the....with a level 4 wizard, they will stop ALL of those spells.

You will roll

7
7
7
3.5

He will have

3.5+4 (BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)

Nice reliable magic phase. If by 'reliable' we mean "We will reliably fail to get a single prayer through"



If anything WP's and AL's are worse now than they were in 7th ed.

This is what I think as well. No dispell dice? That's huge! What are they getting to make up for it? Better bound spells? Nope, wait, their bound spells are *much* worse than before!

(a) they can fail
(b) they take power dice
(c) they don't add their level to the casting, so they are easier to dispell than an equivalent spell from a wizard.

Frankly it looks as though the prayers / magic capabilities of WP/AL have been absolutely butchered.

I'm planning to take enormous gunlines in protest until GW sees sense with the 8th ed Empire book.


Apparently the WP now does not add the power level of his prayer to his roll. That's extremely frustrating. He obviously still isn't supposed to use them. Makes me wonder why he even *has* prayers. Whatever, regarding his usefulness, we're back to square one; it's close to zero.

Agree with this. His spells are useless. He's no good at dispelling - it sounds like he isn't going to get the bonus dispell die. 100 points for hatred? Instead of buying a WP for my halberdier block, why don't I just buy another 20 halberds instead and go to 7 or 8 wide? Then I get more hits every round of combat instead of the first.


I don't think you need the war altar so much anymore, because you have to use dice to cast the spell without any bonuses you'd get from an actual wizard. If you roll 2 dice to cast a Light spell from the WA and get a 7, your opponent's level 2 only has to get a 5 on 2 dice to dispell it, a level 4 could even risk one dice to dispel it on a 3. So the free spell is not a great attraction anymore.

Spot on. It's not a 'free spell'. It takes power dice. And it's *worse* than your other spells because you don't add your level to it. In terms of drawing out dispell dice, warrior priest prayers (and other bound items that don't add their power level) are now the worst thing possible. If your opponent has a wizard lord, he just has to throw one die to have an *excellent* chance of dispelling something you threw with 2 dice. WP prayers are insanely bad now.



I honestly don't see any reason why you would say that. Spells that you cannot get through are the opposite of reliable. With no wizards, you won't have a magic phase to speak of and I wonder how you are going to dispell anything worth dispelling with your list. Heck, I've played games (with what we know of the rules) with 2 Lvl 2's against one Lvl 4 and my opponent completely and utterly dominated the magic phase.

Exactly. Before, a WP and an AL were good magic defence, and decent magic offense. Now, they'll be utterly and totally outclassed by an L2 and an L4. The WP team adds nothing to its casting values. the wizard team adds 4. The WP team adds nothing to their dispelling, and it sounds like they won't get any more dispell dice. the Wizard team adds 4. The WP/AL won't be able to cast anything and won't be able to dispell anything. Oh and they can't channel additional power/magic dice. Unless the FAQ is different than rumored, WP/AL are shaping up to be catastrophically bad.

Skyros
17-06-2010, 20:41
First of all he flank charged me. Then his character riding on that Rat Ogre took out my captain and the gas killed 2 Swordsmen. After this, he would have had 21 regular attacks at the same initiative step (we're both I4) vs. my remaining two Swordsmen.


As far as I understand it, your swordsmen should still have been able to attack back. Casualties are removed from the back (and the flank away from the foe).

Plus, you would still be stubborn, as skirmishers (which PCB are) don't get ranks, and thus can't remove ranks - or at least they couldn't in 7e rules, shouldn't be different in 8e.

Also you should have gone first (but after the gas).

Skyros
17-06-2010, 20:57
I am quite excited about small units of Greatswords killing big things but much MORE excited about giant units of Flagellants going crazy and massacring everything with re-rollable S5 Attacks in Horde formation.

Remember that flails are only +2 str on the first turn, and your rear rank's only get one attack, even if you have frenzy.

With templates hitting on all partials, you won't catch me making hordes of naked 10 point T3 humans.

As a tarpit, are not greatswords now far superior to flagellants? Individually far more survivable, for the same points. No more fear autobreak. Can be stubborn on generals leadership, and reroll with BSB.

10 points for a naked, WS2, T3 human is seeming like an awful lot in the 8th ed environment.

Let's compare, say, 21 (3x7) flagellants vs 40(10x4) halberdiers.

Flagellants will get 2x7 + 7 attacks, for 21 attacks. Half will hit, for 10.5 hits. Anything but a 1 wounds. 8.75 wounds. S5 means no save.
Halberdiers get 9x3 attacks, for 27 attacks. 2/3 will hit, 2/3 will wound, for 12 wounds on the flagellants. No flaggie save.

Grats, you just got your asses kicked by halberdiers. On the FIRST round of combat. It looks even worse on the other rounds when you don't get the flail str bonus.
The halbs will wipe out the flagellants in 2 rounds of combat, and have lost like 12 guys.

Now maybe you martyr 3 each time. Reroll failures to wound and failures to hit. So on the first round you hit with 16, wound with all 16. Halbs kill 12, same as before.

So you have 16 wounds + 1 for martyr (Hell another +1 for charging!)
Halbs have 12 wounds, 3 ranks, and a flag. Hey you won by one! Or maybe not! Either way, halbs are stubborn and are unlikely to flee. They have 2 full ranks of 10 left and a rank of 6 in the back, for 3 ranks. You have 6 flagellants left.

You get completely wiped out in the next combat round and are unlikely to take the halbs to below half.

And that's just fighting someone terrible like halberdiers. Imagine the carnage if you fought someone who was actually good.

Flagellants are a terrible tarpit now, with attacking in 2 ranks and stepping up. They are also really bad at being attackers, since they have no armor, low T, and low I, and no longer strike first on the charge. *Maybe* if they could flank some cavalry or something and only lose a guy or two - but stay away from any infantry blocks!

Walls
18-06-2010, 00:45
I thought 3.5 is mathematically impossible... :confused:


No, you'll have 7 dice to 4 dice. Average. Or it could be 7 to 5, or 7 to 6.
It's never going to be 7 to 3 or 3.5. That's mathematically impossible.



What the....with a level 4 wizard, they will stop ALL of those spells.

You will roll

7
7
7
3.5

He will have

3.5+4 (BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)
3.5+4(BLOCKED)

Nice reliable magic phase. If by 'reliable' we mean "We will reliably fail to get a single prayer through"



This is what I think as well. No dispell dice? That's huge! What are they getting to make up for it? Better bound spells? Nope, wait, their bound spells are *much* worse than before!

(a) they can fail
(b) they take power dice
(c) they don't add their level to the casting, so they are easier to dispell than an equivalent spell from a wizard.

Frankly it looks as though the prayers / magic capabilities of WP/AL have been absolutely butchered.

I'm planning to take enormous gunlines in protest until GW sees sense with the 8th ed Empire book.



Agree with this. His spells are useless. He's no good at dispelling - it sounds like he isn't going to get the bonus dispell die. 100 points for hatred? Instead of buying a WP for my halberdier block, why don't I just buy another 20 halberds instead and go to 7 or 8 wide? Then I get more hits every round of combat instead of the first.



Spot on. It's not a 'free spell'. It takes power dice. And it's *worse* than your other spells because you don't add your level to it. In terms of drawing out dispell dice, warrior priest prayers (and other bound items that don't add their power level) are now the worst thing possible. If your opponent has a wizard lord, he just has to throw one die to have an *excellent* chance of dispelling something you threw with 2 dice. WP prayers are insanely bad now.



Exactly. Before, a WP and an AL were good magic defence, and decent magic offense. Now, they'll be utterly and totally outclassed by an L2 and an L4. The WP team adds nothing to its casting values. the wizard team adds 4. The WP team adds nothing to their dispelling, and it sounds like they won't get any more dispell dice. the Wizard team adds 4. The WP/AL won't be able to cast anything and won't be able to dispell anything. Oh and they can't channel additional power/magic dice. Unless the FAQ is different than rumored, WP/AL are shaping up to be catastrophically bad.

Slacker
18-06-2010, 02:37
The thing is, we're assuming everyone's going to take a Level 4 and a Level 2. I don't think there's going to be a lot of people willing to run the risk of a lord-level caster. Warrior priests and ALs could also well wind up getting a + to dispel.

That's sadly going to have to wait for the FAQ. *shrug*

ArchHeretic
18-06-2010, 03:13
3.5 isn't mathematically impossible, it's physically impossible. :)

Aww man this is bad. Warrior priests and archlectors sucking now :/
I always use them. Oh well, I have a decent assortment of other heroes and lords to make it up. But still...

Mudkip
18-06-2010, 03:55
The WP doesn't add a power level to dispel attempts, but they still contributes dispel dice, so as long as you have a wizard that's fine. The bound spells got worse, but this goes both ways. Your opponent has to spend power dice ot get his bound spells off meaning less overall spells, so the extra dispel dice from the WP should hopefully balance it out. I still think a Warrior Priest or AL will be useful, but they won't be taken exclusively instead of generals and captains anymore and rightly so. You'll have one priest, a wizard or two, a BSB and captain/general.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2010, 05:23
As far as I understand it, your swordsmen should still have been able to attack back. Casualties are removed from the back (and the flank away from the foe).


Yes, four or five Swordsmen could have struck back. However, even if they all had killed someone, I'd still needed snake eyes.



Plus, you would still be stubborn, as skirmishers (which PCB are) don't get ranks, and thus can't remove ranks - or at least they couldn't in 7e rules, shouldn't be different in 8e.


Well, it was a test game - we didn't know all the rules back then. I knew he couldn't remove ranks as a skirmisher, that's why I took the flank charge after all. However, SCR makes no difference when you suffer a dozen casualties.


The WP doesn't add a power level to dispel attempts, but they still contributes dispel dice

*Face palm* No offense, but this is becoming quite absurd. I have mentioned that they do not get a DD close to a dozen times since May.

Mudkip
18-06-2010, 05:29
Well you're only one person and the Internet is a big place. How do you know they don't generate DD?

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2010, 05:55
Seeing as it's been discussed and confirmed on the top of this very page, I think it is safe to assume this particular rumour is correct.

Walls
18-06-2010, 08:18
I am looking at a one of everything approach right now. General, BSB, Wizard, Priest... unit of each of swords, spears, halberds, crossbows, huntsmen, knights, greatswords. Detachments of free company and 6 handguns (3x2, all 6 can shoot and take up less room). Cannon and helblaster. I can fairly easily take all this in 2000-2500 even with the general on a griffon and fully magic'ed out heroes. Lots of core for objectives, lots of firepower, lots of big blocks...

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2010, 09:34
Very interesting approach, Walls. I'm going to try something like that as well.

The rumours about bound spells and prayers and WP's have been contradictory at times, that much is clear. Perhaps I'm worrying too much but I like WP's, so I am quite concerned.

If they can add the power level of their prayers, they will be very very nice. The same goes for if they do keep generating a dispel die. If however they lose both these advantages, I find them a little too situational to be really worth the points. Here's hoping that they keep one or the other useful ability apart from hatred for one round of combat.


The thing is, we're assuming everyone's going to take a Level 4 and a Level 2. I don't think there's going to be a lot of people willing to run the risk of a lord-level caster.


I don't see a huge risk. The higher level offers better protection against being turned into a frog. The other items are unlikely to kill a wizard. I mean okay, they don't allow armour saves but are there many wizards that can even use armour?

When casting, you can generally minimize the risk by not throwing all your dice at one spell. Again, the higher level will help with this. I'm also going to keep my wizards away from big blocks in order to minimize the collateral damage of a miscast.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 18:32
I thought 3.5 is mathematically impossible... :confused:

The average roll of one die is 3.5

However, it's wrong to say that your opponent will have 3.5 power dice to your 7 power dice, because he gets the HIGHER of the two dice.

You could have

6 and 1
5 and 2
4 and 3
3 and 4
2 and 5
1 and 6

If you roll a 7, the SMALLEST amount of dispell dice your opponent will have is 4. It can't possibly ever be 3 or 3.5 :)


The thing is, we're assuming everyone's going to take a Level 4 and a Level 2.

I'm going to take an L4 and no L2. Why take an L2? The L4 can use all the power dice himself. And now that we don't use slots, I can take a cheap GOTE as my 'general'. Works out very well for empire :) I can take a lord caster without having the caster be my general.


Yes, four or five Swordsmen could have struck back. However, even if they all had killed someone, I'd still needed snake eyes.

You wouldn't have needed snake eyes, because your swordsmen would have been stubborn (Unless they succeeded in killing enough guys so that you only had 9 swordsmen left - and remember they'd strike after you).

I hate PCB's but they aren't quite as ridiculous in 8e as they are in 7e (where they can indeed flank a fully ranked unit and sweep them away effortlessly in one round).

Skyros
18-06-2010, 18:43
The WP doesn't add a power level to dispel attempts, but they still contributes dispel dice, so as long as you have a wizard that's fine. The bound spells got worse, but this goes both ways. Your opponent has to spend power dice ot get his bound spells off meaning less overall spells

My only opponent who uses bound spells is TK. No one else really does (aside from an item or two) and they definitely won't in the new edition.

Taking lots of L2's for a good magic phase isn't really the way to go about it in 8e. You only have so many PD, and new wizards don't add new PD. Additionally, you can use up to 6 dice to cast a single spell, so even if you were fortunate enough to roll like 12 PD, a single L2 would use all your PD.

I'm probably going to take one L4 (with rod of power) and a bare bones GOTE (for leadership and banner of armor piercing on halberdiers). No L2 wizrds (probably) and certainly no WP/AL (unless their rules change). Instead, I'll be using a BSB, and then a pegasus captain or two :)

Using WP for hatred in infantry blocks seems a waste to me. Consider:
100 points for a WP with armor, shield, and great weapon. In a 5x5 block of halberds launching 10 attacks, that's 2.5 more hits that land on the first turn. Nothing after that.

OR

I could take 20 more halberds, and expand my frontage by 4. That's 4 more attacks that land on the first turn, and every turn after that. Win/win. WP just to provide hatred to infantry blocks are not worth the points (unless you are definitely going horde mode). I could basically double the size of my halberdier block for the points a WP costs.

They are worth it in really expensive units like IC Knights (more so now that you can have two ranks of IC knights attacking).

innerwolf
18-06-2010, 20:02
Hasn't stubborn devaluated on troops like Greatswords? It's still as useful, but now it's a lot less special. When you can take a huge block of halberdiers and get a similar effect, I no longer see Greatswords being worth their points.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2010, 20:10
You wouldn't have needed snake eyes

You're right. I *was* irked about the brutal amount of damage he did - a couple of kills from the gas, 5 wounds from his character and then another 21 attacks - what could my few puny attacks possibly have accomplished? - or so I thought. Of course, every little bit helps. Actually killing a couple of the PCB' and keeping my cool could have changed the game. And I thought I had learned those particular lessons before! Ah well, 'twas but a test game.

innerwolf, Greatswords are actually cheaper because they do not need any character support and they are certainly a little more survivable. The AoMI aside, a character can be killed and who can guarantee that the General will be around a priori?

duffybear1988
19-06-2010, 08:42
I am very tempted to give this a try for a laugh...

LORDS
1 Templar Grand Master, sword of sigismund, laurels of victory = 245 pts.

HEROES
1 Captain, bsb, full plate, warhorse, barding, ruby ring of destruction (NEW common magic item-bound spell: fireball at power level 3) = 122 pts.

1 Warrior Priest, warhorse, barding, great weapon, dawn armour = 143 pts.

CORE
13 Knights Panther, full command, warbanner = 364 pts.

13 Knights Panther, full command, banner of eternal flame (NEW common magic item-unit gets flaming attacks for 10pts!) = 349 pts.

13 Knights Panther, full command = 339 pts.

SPECIAL
10 Outriders, musician = 218 pts.

10 Outriders, musician = 218 pts.


Total = 1998 points.


It rocks if I get the charge... if not I will probably lose.

Anyone think it might work?

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 10:56
Oh yes. I would totally try that myself if I had that many mounted men.

Slacker
19-06-2010, 11:02
I'm still not convinced a general on foot is better as a general than an AL on a Altar. Combat capability is basically a wash, so we're looking at mediocre to good magic support and an 18" LD bubble or an extra banner on a unit.

I really think a griffon would be meat and absolutely bone-headed to take. Unless anyone's got anything I'm missing there?

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 13:37
Well, in light of the information we have I just cannot understand why you would take a AL. Again, he isn't magic support, he's a dead weight that eats up your dice.

The General in duffy's list isn't technically on foot, even if he isn't on a large target either.

Von Wibble
19-06-2010, 15:51
I am very tempted to give this a try for a laugh...

LORDS
1 Templar Grand Master, sword of sigismund, laurels of victory = 245 pts.

HEROES
1 Captain, bsb, full plate, warhorse, barding, ruby ring of destruction (NEW common magic item-bound spell: fireball at power level 3) = 122 pts.

1 Warrior Priest, warhorse, barding, great weapon, dawn armour = 143 pts.

CORE
13 Knights Panther, full command, warbanner = 364 pts.

13 Knights Panther, full command, banner of eternal flame (NEW common magic item-unit gets flaming attacks for 10pts!) = 349 pts.

13 Knights Panther, full command = 339 pts.

SPECIAL
10 Outriders, musician = 218 pts.

10 Outriders, musician = 218 pts.


Total = 1998 points.


It rocks if I get the charge... if not I will probably lose.

Anyone think it might work?

I'm not convinved at all I'm afraid.

Each of the knight units is only any good on charge.

Now, if you charge the enemy in the front, assuming you are going 7 x 2, you are looking at 2 casualties from character, 9 from knights and 2 from horses.

There aren't many low quality (eg clanrats, orcs) units that will be reduced to below 3 ranks after 13 casualties. Meanwhile the high quality units will hurt you in return and take less casualties. A 7 x 2 white lion unit kills 5 knights before they strike for example.

With only 3 knight units in the army I think flank charges will be very difficult to pull off, unless you plan to use the outriders to support in this capacity. But oc pistoliers would be much better in this role, and cheap knight units even more so.

As far as the AL goes, compare him to a general

AL Plus points - Grants hatred
Channeling - its 1 exttra dice of each type during the game so worth a few points.
Prayers - I agree they aren't difficult to stop, and not as good as a lot of spells. But remember that RIP can't be dispelled except by the priest now, which is one positive.

General Plus points - Better profile
More optionsd for weapons and mounts
Cheaper
Magic banner


On balance I have to agree with the choice to take a general, and also will not be using priests very often. Its a shame really - it seems a classic case of GW weakening a choice that is overused and going too far with it.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 16:20
But remember that RIP can't be dispelled except by the priest now, which is one positive.


I had a look at the book again today and this one isn't true. I read a para about using the base complexity level when dispelling RiP's and that players do not have to keep track of what the other rolled.

SatireSphere
19-06-2010, 16:31
An Arch Lector's bound spells are just as hard to dispel as a level 4 wizard's spells. You roll your power dice and add to them the bound level of the spell which happens to be 4.

You can still run the same ol' mace of helstrum+VHS combo you always did anyways

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 17:10
I quite clearly remember reading that you have to just beat the basic power level of any RiP if the opponent dispells it in his magic phase. Bound items - and therefore prayers - never add anything, so when your opponent tries to dispell in your phase, he will have to beat what you just rolled.

Of course I do remember things wrong sometimes. Where does your info come from, SatireSphere?

Walls
19-06-2010, 17:44
LSP is right about RiP spells. The difference now is you can keep casting after casting one.

Prayers will still be good for getting rid of dispel dice when you have more powerdice then he has DD.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 21:34
Well, here's hoping that they will come to their senses. After all, they are supposedly changing the FAQ's around a bit again or so I've been told (and others have mentioned "pre-release" FAQ's). It's not as if WP's were a huge compatibility issue.

Slacker
20-06-2010, 00:20
Obviously one has to play it by ear.

Discounting the magic aside, I think from a leadership of your army standpoint, the AL on a war altar is better than the General similarly kitted out, in the sense that the large target he's sitting on is much more durable.

One could think about taking a Level 4 and a Popemobile, see if that works.

Walls
20-06-2010, 01:18
I'll take my rerolling General in a big block of troops over a single war altar anyday, especially with shooting being better.

Walls
20-06-2010, 17:56
So how are we taking our knights? 5x3 now? Maybe throw in a TGM?

duffybear1988
20-06-2010, 20:48
I have found units of either 11 or 13 great weapon knights with a captain, WP or TGM in 2 ranks to be most useful so far. Without the hero they will probably spend another turn or 2 in combat.

Walls
20-06-2010, 22:27
Why 11 or 13?

I am also really toying with Great Weapons. Odds are you attack last against almost anyone, anyhow.

Skywave
21-06-2010, 03:31
Why 11 or 13?

I am also really toying with Great Weapons. Odds are you attack last against almost anyone, anyhow.

With a character that gives you either a 6x2 or a 7x2 unit.


Anyone that saw the book looked at brace of pistols? Since great weapons are back at S+2 while mounted, I'm wondering if those will grant extra attack for Pistoliers now (like in 6th ed. I believe, was not playing Empire back then). Against some light unit, getting 3 attack per model (including the horse) could be nice, even at S3 :)

Walls
21-06-2010, 04:21
It just allows you to stand and shoot at any range. It's another possible wound, can't complain about that!

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 06:14
I field my knights in two units of 9 (5x2 with a hero), one with lances, one with hammers. They're accompanied by a TGM and a WP currently. It's not the optimal size as one casualty removes a rank but I want to field other stuff as well and haven't made up my mind about what to kick out.

Skyros
21-06-2010, 15:13
An Arch Lector's bound spells are just as hard to dispel as a level 4 wizard's spells. You roll your power dice and add to them the bound level of the spell which happens to be 4.


Where are you getting this information from? I remember the same as LSP - bound items don't add anything, just have to beat the basic casting value to dispell, or the 'power level' to dispell an RiP later.

I really HOPE you are right, as otherwise an AL's magic is worthless, but I'm not terribly hopeful.



Prayers will still be good for getting rid of dispel dice when you have more powerdice then he has DD.

No they won't.They are terrible for that job. If you want to get rid of the opponents powered up dispell dice you need to use your own powered up power dice.

An L4 wizard, for example, will be able to dispell your 2 dice prayers with 1 die.

PurchasedPig
21-06-2010, 16:33
Obviously one has to play it by ear.

Discounting the magic aside, I think from a leadership of your army standpoint, the AL on a war altar is better than the General similarly kitted out, in the sense that the large target he's sitting on is much more durable.

One could think about taking a Level 4 and a Popemobile, see if that works.

Hi there, just wondering about the War Altar. I never realised it was a Large Target. Does it specifically say this in the Empire book? It seems to be taken as a given here so I'm sure there is a reason but I don't know what it is.

Cheers

-PurchasedPig-

Malorian
21-06-2010, 17:08
Does it specifically say this in the Empire book? -PurchasedPig-

Pretty sure it is...


Has anyone got any trial games in?

frapermax
21-06-2010, 18:12
just an idea:
1) Since we need to break up big battle lines in order to get a flank charge off, maybe it could be a good idea to spam some 3-4 little blocks of 10-15 Free company or spearmen (50-75 points) as redirectors. (even handgunners could work, because if they don't charge them, you annoyingly keep shooting from short distance.) I see them more as extra (back-up) detachments, because our 2 regular ones will soon be gone.
Flee most charges, but make 1 unit hold and be pursued could break up the battle line of some of the horde armies (skaven, O+G) pretty quick.
Keep the one 12 knights unit out of sight till ready or use some of the other spam units to flank. Then charge in with the big blocks.
Could this work?

Walls
21-06-2010, 18:18
Where are you getting this information from? I remember the same as LSP - bound items don't add anything, just have to beat the basic casting value to dispell, or the 'power level' to dispell an RiP later.

I really HOPE you are right, as otherwise an AL's magic is worthless, but I'm not terribly hopeful.



No they won't.They are terrible for that job. If you want to get rid of the opponents powered up dispell dice you need to use your own powered up power dice.

An L4 wizard, for example, will be able to dispell your 2 dice prayers with 1 die.

On a 1 or 2 before modifiers you fail a cast. If this sits the same for dispelling, then no, they can't.

Malorian
21-06-2010, 18:41
just an idea:
1) Since we need to break up big battle lines in order to get a flank charge off, maybe it could be a good idea to spam some 3-4 little blocks of 10-15 Free company or spearmen (50-75 points) as redirectors. (even handgunners could work, because if they don't charge them, you annoyingly keep shooting from short distance.) I see them more as extra (back-up) detachments, because our 2 regular ones will soon be gone.
Flee most charges, but make 1 unit hold and be pursued could break up the battle line of some of the horde armies (skaven, O+G) pretty quick.
Keep the one 12 knights unit out of sight till ready or use some of the other spam units to flank. Then charge in with the big blocks.
Could this work?

Could work but I don't think it would be dependable.

With all the shooting and powerful magic I wouldn't expect little redirecter units to last long.


The way I plan to break up formations is to have my anvils set up an at angle to make them show flanks.

Obviously you have to be careful not to do this in a way that you get flanked instead but I think it has merit.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-06-2010, 07:54
This is more of an equipment than a tactical question but I'm confused and need help: Does it make any sense to equip a character with a halberd *and* a shield? I have one sweet captain mini with a halberd that I want to use (and it's relatively a cheap support hero) but will he even be able to use the shield or does the halberd preclude that? I mean it's not as if he would use it against shooting as he's in a unit...

RichBlake
22-06-2010, 12:54
This is more of an equipment than a tactical question but I'm confused and need help: Does it make any sense to equip a character with a halberd *and* a shield? I have one sweet captain mini with a halberd that I want to use (and it's relatively a cheap support hero) but will he even be able to use the shield or does the halberd preclude that? I mean it's not as if he would use it against shooting as he's in a unit...

How I remember it from the rule book is:

Shield gives you +1 to your armour save.
Hand Weapon & Shield in Close Combat grant you a 6+ ward against attacks after you fail your armour (or can't take it).
If you have a two-handed weapon (spear, halbard, great weapon) you may NOT choose to use HW & Shield for the parry bonus. However you still get the +1.

So depends if you think the points are worth adding to the armour save, I do personally on heroes, not so much on State Troops.

Mudkip
22-06-2010, 13:42
Halberds cannot be used with a shield, unless this has changed in the new edition. In which case their only value is vs missile weapons. But to equip a 25-man unit with shields would cost enough points to add an extra rank of models instead, which would be even better for surviving shooting so the shields aren't worth it on Halberdiers at all.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-06-2010, 14:32
Hey RichBlake, long time no see!

I was only pondering whether I should bother to equip a Captain who happens to have a Halberd with a shield. Since he's going to join a unit so that ranged attacks aren't an issue, I think I go without one.

Skyros
22-06-2010, 20:35
What if he fails his Lookout Sir roll?! :D

RichBlake
23-06-2010, 01:27
Halberds cannot be used with a shield, unless this has changed in the new edition. In which case their only value is vs missile weapons. But to equip a 25-man unit with shields would cost enough points to add an extra rank of models instead, which would be even better for surviving shooting so the shields aren't worth it on Halberdiers at all.

As far as I recall from the new rules (which means I could be wrong) while you do not use the Halbard with the shield in close combat per se it does still give you +1 to your armour save.

Esentially shields at the moment give you +1 to your armour save and in close combat using HW & Shield gives an additional +1.

Now you simply swap the additional +1 for a 6+ ward.


Hey RichBlake, long time no see!


Nice to see you too! :D



I was only pondering whether I should bother to equip a Captain who happens to have a Halberd with a shield. Since he's going to join a unit so that ranged attacks aren't an issue, I think I go without one.

For the 2/3 points I'd say it's worth it only for challenges etc. Also Heroes can still be picked out of a unit in CC so unless theres a much better way of spending the 3 points then why the hell not?

Also I'd argue beyond being BSBs the captains aren't much use tbh, since Generals are only 80 points and you can take them in any size game unless you have a special character or Wizard Lord or Arch Lector taking up your 25% Lord allowance I could never see myself taking a Captain again. 80points is like the normal cost for a Hero in other army books after all.


What if he fails his Lookout Sir roll?! :D

That would only matter if he was shot by a template or a cannon :P

rolly_321
23-06-2010, 04:20
Is it just me or does the Griffon banner now seem absolutly amazing! With detachments to cover our flanks/remove the enemies its synergistic too.


Put it in a unit of Greatswords with perhaps a Warrior Priest for good messure and that unit will have the largest scatic CR in the game + a rather tasty amount of re-rolling S5 attacks. Also will almost always outnumber when you add detachments. It's like the Warhammer Version of Pong, unit hits it, unit runs away. Stick a Walter or Wizard near by to regen losses, rinse and repeat.

Not game breaking but theres deffinatly potecial.

Walls
23-06-2010, 05:32
Outnumbering actually doesnt matter at all anymore.

I played 2 games of 8th today, with the rulebook, with my empire. Played 2000 vs goblins and then vs high elves.

Man, this game is so, so different now.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-06-2010, 05:42
For the 2/3 points I'd say it's worth it only for challenges etc. Also Heroes can still be picked out of a unit in CC so unless theres a much better way of spending the 3 points then why the hell not?
... I could never see myself taking a Captain again. 80points is like the normal cost for a Hero in other army books after all.


Generals are more expensive. I don't have those extra 60 points, or rather I would like to spend them elsewhere.

The shield though...hmm, would be nice if you're right.


Is it just me or does the Griffon banner now seem absolutly amazing! With detachments to cover our flanks/remove the enemies its synergistic too.


The Griffon Banner hasn't changed. I realize that many other aspects have changed but I don't see what makes it so amazing or much better than before.

Walls
23-06-2010, 05:55
I really found generals aren't worth it. They're crappier then other generals or just equal to other crappy ones (like goblins). Their relatively low I compared to others hinders them. Empire fighty characters will be purely support now. Don't waste too, too many pts on them.

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 06:06
Greatswords + Speed of Light + Birona's Timewarp. Hitting everything on 3s (very rarely 4s), throwing 19 attacks from a frontage of 6, going before almost everything (I10; sadly ASF and ASL cancel, otherwise you'd go before EVERYTHING but a Keeper of Secrets and reroll failed to hits to boot).

If you have two different lores and you really want to go in the other direction, hit them with Glittering Cloak and Flesh to Stone. T5(7 with throne) Greatswords with a 2+ save.

Empire having access to all 8 book lores is a godsend. You can really build your list around certain lores.

Mudkip
23-06-2010, 08:24
As far as I recall from the new rules (which means I could be wrong) while you do not use the Halbard with the shield in close combat per se it does still give you +1 to your armour save.


I've asked about this in the rumour forum and apparently this is not the case, so Halberdiers only have a 6+ save in combat whether they have a shield or not.

Seth the Dark
23-06-2010, 09:08
Yea the Halberdiers are two-handed. On the other hand, I love having a 6+ ward save on my swordsmen since that save me against many great weapon attacks.

SatireSphere
23-06-2010, 09:12
Pretty sure it is...


Has anyone got any trial games in?

Several. Dual Helstrom Rocket batteries are absolutely nasty against every army in the game. Mortars are pretty solid too, with the current trend of everyone running big blocks.

I forsee large blocks of swordsmen (ranked conventionally in 5 wide) with a large (15-20 man, also 5 wide) detachment of halberdiers and a 15 man detachment of handgunners/crossbowmen being very popular. The ability to get those extra couple shots with support fire is very nifty and detachments need a fair bit of meat to ensure the parent block will have the advantage in ranks and thus stubborn.

Warrior Priests aren't as much of a no brainer anymore but they're still solid. A BSB is an absolute must in almost every game, and I'd almost always give him the griffin standard. Wizards are pretty beefy, and almost a necessity. The Empire's ability to choose between any of the book lores is a big one. Lore of Fire if you'll be fighting Hydras or HPAs. Otherwise I'd stick with Beasts or Life.

A good tactic for Wizards of either hero or lord variety is to take a power scroll and the lore of beasts. If you're lucky enough (of course will a level 4 the odds are much, much better to get the spell you want, seeing as rolling any doubles now results in you being able to pick the spell rather than rerolling the die) to get the transformation spell, roll 4-5 dice on the souped up version and toss out your power scroll if you get doubles. Unless you roll a 1-4 on the miscast chart, your new dragon form will be more than enough to soak up any damage you'd be taking, and even if you do roll a 1-4, you still have a 50% chance of living.

Mudkip
23-06-2010, 09:23
Having to choose lores in your army list sucks for Empire. It's not like you can just decide to go fire against Dark Elves if it says you've got a life wizard in your list.

SatireSphere
23-06-2010, 09:27
Can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid. I wasn't aware that you had to put it on your list, though. You have a page reference so I can check tomorrow?

Mudkip
23-06-2010, 09:33
I'm just going off the rumour roundup.

SatireSphere
23-06-2010, 09:39
I'll take a look but I don't recall anything like that.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-06-2010, 09:59
Yea the Halberdiers are two-handed.

I've always wondered about this. I mean it seems clear enough as a game mechanic but does a spear really allow a free hand in reality? They're both polearms...perhaps the chopping motion requires more force than the stabbing motion...


Can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid. I wasn't aware that you had to put it on your list, though. You have a page reference so I can check tomorrow?

Well, you have to chose it before the game like everything else, so it's prudent to include it in the list like everything else.

alextroy
23-06-2010, 14:04
The rules for Wizards choosing their Lore at army creation is in the Army Selection section of the rulebook.

Malorian
23-06-2010, 17:42
I've always wondered about this. I mean it seems clear enough as a game mechanic but does a spear really allow a free hand in reality? They're both polearms...perhaps the chopping motion requires more force than the stabbing motion...

See 300 for inspiration for how to use a spear with one hand.

Skyros
23-06-2010, 19:30
I really found generals aren't worth it. They're crappier then other generals or just equal to other crappy ones (like goblins). Their relatively low I compared to others hinders them. Empire fighty characters will be purely support now. Don't waste too, too many pts on them.

I don't see much of a role for empire fighty characters. Before if we put a captain in a block, he was harder to kill than the normal troops, so the enemy wouldn't attack him, so we'd get some attacks back. Now everyone gets to attack back, and in 2 ranks - and the enemy gets to target your character with 2 ranks.

I'll probably take a captain on a pegasus with 1+ armor save for warmachine hunting. Aldred's casket could be hilarious with some of the new spells as well.

I'll probably also take a wizard lord (L4) for magic and a GOTE with just FPA and shield to provide leadership 9 and an armor piercing banner to a horde of halberdiers.

Other than that...maybe another L2 and an engineer for my new artillery park, if the engineer just has to be within 3" to reroll a misfire result.

Seth the Dark
23-06-2010, 21:25
The Casket definitely took a hit since you will have to roll to cast the spells now.:(

RichBlake
24-06-2010, 03:53
Generals are more expensive. I don't have those extra 60 points, or rather I would like to spend them elsewhere.


Correct me if I'm wrong but a Captain is 50 points and a General is 80 yes? Before equipment etc that is.

You essentially pay 30 points for an extra attack, an extra wound, an extra point of leadership (which of course is used by all units within 12"), a bigger magic item allowance and a boost to I (I think, not sure on the I boost).

Oh and don't forget that the General allows a single core unit to take a magic banner worth up to 50 points. Sure the Empire ones aren't great, there are more then several decent flags in the Rulebook that could be taken though. For example there is a 10 point flag that makes all your attacks flaming. Give that to handgunners, skirmishing Hunters, Crossbowmen etc and you'll give Hydras and Abominations a hard time. There is also one that for 15 points gives you +1 to movement. Before the ability to take a magic standard was sort of lame, now a 50 point standard from the rulebook is well worth it imo.

Personally I think the bonuses you get for the 30 points plus the extra combos due to the bigger magic item allowance and the banner with the new edition is worth finding the 30 points from somewhere.

This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263344) is the gunline I'm going to be using, it's my current Fantasy army based off British Redcoats.


The shield though...hmm, would be nice if you're right.

Double checked today, the rulebook said if you buy a shield you get +1 to your armour save. If you have a "special weapon", i.e. anything that isn't a "hand weapon" then you MUST use this in close combat.

It then says if you are using hand weapon and shield you get a 6+ ward save, though you don't get this if you are using a two handed weapon.

I'm 99% sure the shield still gives the +1 even if you're not using it for the parry.





I've asked about this in the rumour forum and apparently this is not the case, so Halberdiers only have a 6+ save in combat whether they have a shield or not.

I've actually read the book today and nothing there would imply you don't get +1 from having a shield (see above).


I've always wondered about this. I mean it seems clear enough as a game mechanic but does a spear really allow a free hand in reality? They're both polearms...perhaps the chopping motion requires more force than the stabbing motion...


I think the "spear" in Fantasy is a long spear, like the height of a man. More of the Medieval ranked up wall of pointy sticks style of fighting to the Greek short spears.



Well, you have to chose it before the game like everything else, so it's prudent to include it in the list like everything else.

Even though I use magic more now I prefer it this way. Yes you lose a level of flexibility (which was awesome before) but it's relatively easy to pick a lore to suit your army, or to make up for it's weaknesses rather then to pick on your enemy's weaknesses.

The though choice I'm having for my gunline is either going with the Lore of Heavens for the damage but also for the re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound, if I get that off every turn that applies to nearly 100 handgunners... plus you can force your opponent to re-roll 6s for armour saves. Since handguns are S4 AP it means usually they are on 5, 6 or nothing anyway meaning that it will have a big impact. On the other hand the Lore of Metal allows me to deal with anything heavily armoured enough t oshrug off most handgun shots and allows me to grant my army magical attacks, which is useful as otherwise ethereal units cant be damaged by me...

It's a hard life :(

SatireSphere
24-06-2010, 03:55
Turns out you do indeed have to put the lore of your wizards on your army list.

Also we ran into a little problem with Transformation of Khadon today: when you become the monster, do you still count as a character? If so, it's absolutely ludicrous. You can charge the wizard out by himself, pop a power scroll to get IF and become a dragon, and then challenge whatever's in the front rank and massacre it. Even dedicated combat characters will have a lot of trouble dealing with a T8, 8 wound 2+ save monstrosity like the great fire dragon.

SatireSphere
24-06-2010, 03:58
Correct me if I'm wrong but a Captain is 50 points and a General is 80 yes? Before equipment etc that is.

You essentially pay 30 points for an extra attack, an extra wound, an extra point of leadership (which of course is used by all units within 12"), a bigger magic item allowance and a boost to I (I think, not sure on the I boost).

The only bonus an Empire General has over the captain statwise is LD and W. Same 3 attacks and the same 5 initiative.


It then says if you are using hand weapon and shield you get a 6+ ward save, though you don't get this if you are using a two handed weapon.

I'm 99% sure the shield still gives the +1 even if you're not using it for the parry.

I've actually read the book today and nothing there would imply you don't get +1 from having a shield (see above).

Halberds take up two hands and it takes a hand to use a shield. It's pretty much that simple.

RichBlake
24-06-2010, 04:35
The only bonus an Empire General has over the captain statwise is LD and W. Same 3 attacks and the same 5 initiative.


Fair doos, I still think the 30 points is worth it for the option to take a banner, the extra Ld for all your units within 12" and the extra 50 points of magic items he can take.



Halberds take up two hands and it takes a hand to use a shield. It's pretty much that simple.

I'm pretty sure that you get the +1 for having a shield but as a halbard take sup two hands you cannot use it to parry.

I'm only human and I may be wrong, but thats the impression I got from reading the rulebook earlier today.

Walls
24-06-2010, 04:46
Turns out you do indeed have to put the lore of your wizards on your army list.

Also we ran into a little problem with Transformation of Khadon today: when you become the monster, do you still count as a character? If so, it's absolutely ludicrous. You can charge the wizard out by himself, pop a power scroll to get IF and become a dragon, and then challenge whatever's in the front rank and massacre it. Even dedicated combat characters will have a lot of trouble dealing with a T8, 8 wound 2+ save monstrosity like the great fire dragon.

I'd guess you better dispel it then!

SatireSphere
24-06-2010, 05:15
I'd guess you better dispel it then!

Can't when they roll 6 dice and pop a power scroll (as long as they get at least one double).


I'm pretty sure that you get the +1 for having a shield but as a halbard take sup two hands you cannot use it to parry.

I'm only human and I may be wrong, but thats the impression I got from reading the rulebook earlier today.

Yeah I was looking at the same bit today when I played a few games. Halberdiers are still stuck with a 6+ save unfortunately.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2010, 09:06
I don't see much of a role for empire fighty characters. Before if we put a captain in a block, he was harder to kill than the normal troops, so the enemy wouldn't attack him, so we'd get some attacks back. Now everyone gets to attack back, and in 2 ranks - and the enemy gets to target your character with 2 ranks.


I read the other day that only models in b2b can attack characters and attacks from other ranks strike the unit although I cannot verify this right now.

Either way, a character is still much more survivable. If someone decides to attack him, the unit will suffer less casualties. He also supplies an improved Ld stat and a nice magic item/weapon/potion/lotion* or two.

I'm currently running cheap captains for my two blocks of State troops, a WL, a TGM for a unit of Knights and a BSB. I'm thinking of swapping the TGM for a GotE to get the Flaming Banner on my Great Swords (although this isn't a necessity, it could go to a unit of knights), and I'm toying with an Engineer, just for lulz.


Correct me if I'm wrong but a Captain is 50 points and a General is 80 yes?


Yes, but I'm running two Captains, and a General offers no real benefit. Or at least not after the first for the banner.


* Lotion of the Blazing Sun: Provides an SPF of 25. Has no ingame effect. Can be combined with rubber duckies for increased hilarity.

Skyros
24-06-2010, 15:40
Also we ran into a little problem with Transformation of Khadon today: when you become the monster, do you still count as a character? If so, hellooooo VHS!

At least for us empire players. ;)'

As far as generals go, 30 points for me is definitely worth the +1 LD, +1 wound, and magical banner to a unit of state troops. But I would only take one general, I wouldn't use them as fighty characters in blocks - their fighting prowess is the same as captains.

And if the rumor about engineers working on any war machine within 3" is true, I may wind up taking 2 of them.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2010, 16:04
As far as generals go, 30 points for me is definitely worth the +1 LD, +1 wound, and magical banner to a unit of state troops. But I would only take one general, I wouldn't use them as fighty characters in blocks - their fighting prowess is the same as captains.

And if the rumor about engineers working on any war machine within 3" is true, I may wind up taking 2 of them.

Agreed, Generals are great, not just for the magic banner, but because they are the cheapest way to get Ld9 into your army. They also have great defensive options, a (potentially rerollable) 1+ armour and 4+ ward makes them pretty survivable. its coming home to me more and more that in 8th Generals and BSB will be prime targets for assassins, massed infantry attacks and the like. Particularly the BSB does so much for the army that I wouldn't be surprised if players come up with all sorts of dirty schemes to try and dispose of them.

On the whole 8E seems to be more about units, particularly infantry units, which characters are primarily there to support. Certainly my focus is going to be on making my characters survivable, rather than tooling them up for uber killyness.

Malorian
24-06-2010, 17:24
Might be cheaper though just to have a VC style bunker behind the lines for the general and BSB to hide in.

Walls
24-06-2010, 17:57
You can still shoot through intervening units... so no bunker is truly safe anymore... thank god.

Malorian
24-06-2010, 18:25
Well bunkers have aways been shot at thanks to hills/large targets/spaces between units, the main thing is that they won't get charged.

Walls
24-06-2010, 22:14
More accurate artillery makes them way easier to hit. A bunker is generally not very big and therefore susceptible to being taken out.

Skyros
24-06-2010, 22:17
I'm not sure how to handle my BSB/General.
General will probably go in a unit, tooled up for defence - he should be pretty survivable.

The BSB can't take nearly as much magic goodies as the General can to defend himself. I may just give him a mundane banner and stick him behind my lines with a ward save against shooting item. He may die eventually, but eh.

Walls
24-06-2010, 22:24
Put him in a big unit, but not necessarily a horde. Let him get into a big steadfast unit in the middle of your table. That's what I've been doing anyhow. Lots of Look Out Sir, another character and champion to take challenges...

Malorian
24-06-2010, 22:57
Just put them in a bunker behind your lines.

Either something cheap like 10 spearmen, or get some shooting with crossbowmen, or pun in some extra points to make it bigger just to be safe.

Hell it could even be a functional larger bunker that fills in where ever the holes appear.

In the end you key characters are 100% save and out of combat and you don't have to waste a bunch of points trying to protect them.

RichBlake
24-06-2010, 23:42
Just put them in a bunker behind your lines.


This is what I used to do with my gunline.

Used to have a General, BSB and a scroll caddy in a unit of 15 Halberdiers. They didn't really do much but in theory they could react to stuff.

I think if I was to do it now I might put my general in a unit of Outriders. The extra height due to the horse means they will be able to shoot over my gunline and the fact that i can have 10 Outriders, all able to shoot (two ranks of 5) with Multi-shot 3 at BS 4, meaning 30 shots hitting on 4s, S4 with Armour Piercing. Plus the Champ is BS 5 and can have a Hochland long rifle. PLUS you can give them barding, they loose the fast cav rule but gain a 4+ save in total (light armour + horse + barding) meaning shooting will be slightly less painful.

I just came up with that idea while typing, I think I might use it myself :P

Mandragola
25-06-2010, 01:24
Depending on points, two lords seems like a strong option. At 2k I'm thinking a level 4 wizard and a priest on war altar for the 18" LD9. You wouldn't be able to buy them a lot of gear, but you kind of don't need to.

In terms of heroes I don't think you have to look a lot further than warrior priests. Stick one of these guys in a big unit, say a horde of 40 halberdiers, and fireworks will ensue. Other than that you probably want a BSB and maybe a scroll caddie.

Volkmar might actually be the most efficient way to do all this thanks to his hatred aura. He's much harder to get rid of than a priest in the front rank.

txamil
25-06-2010, 02:02
When detachments counter-charge, will they be using their M value or M plus 2D6?

"has enough move to reach it"

Walls
25-06-2010, 06:39
So, here's a question. A guy wants to convert his knights from having lances to having great weapons. Any idea what bitz work?

Spiney Norman
25-06-2010, 11:23
So, here's a question. A guy wants to convert his knights from having lances to having great weapons. Any idea what bitz work?

Plastic Greatsword torsos, expensive, but they look awesome

Sircyn
25-06-2010, 12:08
Whenever I want plastic greatswords, I pick up a battalion box. I rationalise it that I am paying for the other contents and am getting the gold swords for free! No wai am I paying full whack for just the ten of them. I am going to be making up my GW knights using them, the space wolf gone rural look the KOTWW have going is a total turn off for me.

RichBlake
25-06-2010, 13:03
So, here's a question. A guy wants to convert his knights from having lances to having great weapons. Any idea what bitz work?

You could always use the weapons from the Knights box with the normal knightly heads.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the white wolf models are simply the knight torso and legs (and horse) with massive hammers instead of lances, no helmets on and fur cloaks?

If you want all your knights armed with great swords then the plastic greatswords are your best (but expensive) bet.

On the other hand you can use the greatswordsmen bodies to convert up Champions and other command models for all your other units. So depends what you want to do.

On a tactical point though I think giving Empire Knights great swords over lances is definitely a good choice. The problem I have with Empire Knights at the moment is that they are very good at surviving (+1 save) but not so good at actually killing things and breaking the unit. Since I believe this new edition to be more about the second round of combat, the fact we can survive going last, the fact GWs give +2 to S on cavalry again and we were probably going to strike last anyway (due to initiative) means that the downside of striking last is outweighed by the pluses of getting S5 knights all through combat.