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Urban Shaman Commando
28-05-2010, 13:41
This has been probably asked many times before but I'll ask anyway.

I've been intrigued about Dark Angels lately (yes dark, not blood). I wouldn't want to use a severely outdated codex so I was wondering if they'd play well as just...uh...Dark Angels Green Marines. Shooty Dark Green marines who like Plasma and have bikes and termies that look different from the rest of the army.

Obviously I couldn't play either of the Wings. It's still probably OK to use termies and bikes/speeders, right? Are there any really, really crucial differences between the codecii that would make this kind of proxying unworkable? I've heard many times that the DA codex was largely un-different from the back then C: SM anyway.

If I go with the plan, what should I avoid using from C: SM? I've leafed through the DA codex but I'm unfamiliar with latest space marine codex.

MasterGideon
28-05-2010, 13:55
Dark Angel Terminators and Bikes are Both Fearless, Thats a huge difference, Along with Dark Angel Terminators being able to take both Tactical/Assault Terminator options in the same Unit., Able to do Deathwing Assault as well.

Dark Angel Bikes also have Scout, and Inbuilt Teleporter Homers.

Its not that the Dark Angel are Underpowered, its that they are over costed in some aspects, namely Tactical Squads and Razorbacks. Small Wargear changes, Storm Shield and PoTMS spring to mind.



MasterGideon

Elios Harg
28-05-2010, 15:24
Correct, the Dark Angels codex is still quite effective as long as you stick with a combination of Ravenwing and Deathwing and avoid fielding Tactical, Assault or Devastator squads. Personally, I find the combination of Ravenwing teleport homers and a couple of heavy flamer toting Deathwing squads to be particularly potent.

Of course, it's also perfectly fine to use the Vanilla codex as well, just make sure your opponent knows that you're not really fielding Dark Angels. But you miss out on the surprise on people's face when you kick butt with a codex that is supposed to be underpowered.

killerbot
28-05-2010, 16:01
i would still play DA just because of the awsomeness of the Deathwing/Ravenwing stuff.

Fearless units - YES PLEASE!
old Apothecaries - YES PLEASE!
Chapter banners in a terinator/bike squad - YES PLEASE! (getting kind of repetative isnt it :D)
Mixed Termies in a squad - Hell yeah
beliel with 2 Lightening claws, Chapter banner (+1 attack ), and all that other stuff in the squad yeah, hard as nails.
also the Dreds are quite good.

all in all the dual wings are about the only thing good for the DA codex. there are lots of amazing things in that book, and they are all legal.
Deathwing assult is very useful, and scout moves on the LS and Bikes - the only thing that is wrong with this is that they cant turbo boost in the scout move, but then technically the LS is a scoring unit.

either one or the other must Apply - scoring=no turbo boost scout turbo boost scout = no scoring LS. as it states in the book that the LS is scoring and everyone loves the fact that codices out rule the rule book.

House rules for my club is no scoring LS.

oh and also the whole amazing sammy on a jetbike model. love it sooooo much.

Gimp
28-05-2010, 16:07
Of course you can use the Codex: SM to represent Dark Angels.

You can even make them "more" Deathwing and Ravenwing

You can use Lysander as a Deathwing Master

Or a Captain on a Bike or Khan as a Ravenwing Master

Zeroth
28-05-2010, 16:27
I have been playing Deathwing for aproximately 6 months now, not done an aweful lot of games, but enough to have a feel of my army.
Recently I have been experimenting with the Codex Space Marines using nearly my same army.

Basicly I switch out Belial and my terminator librarian for Vulkan and 2x scout squads with 5 men. It's tricky to play in objectives games, but not nearly as hard as I would have thought. My terminators are like twice as good. Not only do they have the awesome storm shield, but I get master crafted thunder hammers. And if that's not enough, the multimelta on my Crusaders (got 3 in my army) now hit what they shoot at.

Using codex Space Marines when playing Dark Angels = Thumbs up from me!

For reference my SM army is like this

Vulkan
3x 5 assault termies th/ss
3x LRC
2x 5 scouts, camo cloaks and snipers

My Deathwing army is here: Tada! (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4406749&postcount=1)

Starchild
28-05-2010, 17:19
For what it's worth, Dark Angels have the best Techmarines: :chrome: 2 wounds each, plus each Servitor can have a heavy weapon if you're interested in plasma cannon spam. Plus they don't take up any slots on the FOC-- only the presence of a vehicle is required.

I can't say I'm too fond of the Techmarines in codex chest eagles... 1W on a model that costs so many points is frankly quite ridiculous. No wonder nobody uses them. :(

MetalGecko23
28-05-2010, 17:36
I run C:SM for my Dark Angels. An it works great!!

Deathwing takes no real hit, other then the loss of Fearless. Which if you took Lysander losing Fearless would be minimal. Mixed weapons is a gimmick at best so you don't need to worry about that. An Deathwing Assualt is nothing special.

Ravenwing would lose Fearless but would be waaaay cheaper. Landspeeders would be cheaper with no loss. If you wanted though you could just say there battle company marines riding bikes. There is nothing in Dark Angels fluff that I'm aware of that says that the Dark Angels don't use Assualt Marines on bikes other then that the Dark Angels follow Codex Astartes which means they would have them.

Ozendorph
28-05-2010, 17:44
I use the DA codex on the rare occasion I field the Angels these days, but most players I encounter prefer to use the Vanilla dex (for too many reasons to list). It's a generally accepted practice in these parts.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2010, 17:58
Honestly Dark Angels should just use the Codex Space Marines anyway. The differences between them and other Codex chapters is minute. The main difference you would see directly on the battlefield is that Dark Angels don't have veteran squads. That's something you can do on your own. And voilą, you have yourself a Dark Angel army.

That the second company is organised differently or that the first company is called the Deathwing and that all senior officers are technically part of it and there other minor organisational quirks are unimportant in terms of what you actually put on the table.
I know they have been given more differences to justify them having there own codex but there isn't any other reason to do that as far as I can see.
Dark Angels are my favourite marines but the things that makes them special have very little to do with what troops you put on the table.

radical ed
28-05-2010, 18:08
Honestly Dark Angels should just use the Codex Space Marines anyway. The differences between them and other Codex chapters is minute. The main difference you would see directly on the battlefield is that Dark Angels don't have veteran squads. That's something you can do on your own. And voilą, you have yourself a Dark Angel army.

That the second company is organised differently or that the first company is called the Deathwing and that all senior officers are technically part of it and there other minor organisational quirks are unimportant in terms of what you actually put on the table.
I know they have been given more differences to justify them having there own codex but there isn't any other reason to do that as far as I can see.
Dark Angels are my favourite marines but the things that makes them special have very little to do with what troops you put on the table.

agreed. i play deathwing, amongst others, and would love all the toys the vanilla termis get. And it would be so so simple to do. All GW would need is an article and rules in White Dwarf for Belail and samual. do them as special charecters that can be added to the regular codex and boom! job done.

edit: or it would at least tide over DA players till they get a new codex.

Ozendorph
28-05-2010, 18:16
Well, I would agree that the DA in their current incarnation don't need a Dex of their own, but I don't think that should continue to be the case. Creativity and vision on the part of the writers and designers could easily distinguish the First Legion from their Codex-adherent brethren. There's a ton of quality background material and imagery to draw on...

Israfael
28-05-2010, 19:01
You're obviously more than welcome to field your Marines however you wish, just don't expect any pats on the back for originality or loyalty to the chapter.

I stand by the idea of using a codex to play the army I have. I'm a loyal Dark Angel player - and I will play the codex I've been given. I don't care if I have a points handicap; I just focus on tactics and strive to be that much better. I win the vast majority of my games, so the book still has teeth.

Maybe it's silly to some, but I respect and love the Chapter, and would never field Dark Angels as another codex. Loyalty, that's what it's all about for me. This is all just my opinion though, do as you like.

killerbot
28-05-2010, 21:01
i think that it is unfair to compare the DA codex to marine codex, as if compared directly to the last editon marine book, which it effectivly is, it is awsome. still got the old Chaplains and techmarines.

no other marine army can match a Raven Wing Bike army. yeah you can do it, but they dont get scout. or scoring LS's so who cares if the points are a little over.

also with Deathwing. having mixed Termie squads is awsome. HF and Claws ina squad...Yeah please.

massey
28-05-2010, 22:19
I would prefer more bikes to scout and fearless.

killerbot
28-05-2010, 23:03
really? i would definatly want the scoring speeders with scout. :D 12" move in the scout move. you can get into the best position no matter the enemy. definatly worth a few more points a bike.

Seth the Dark
28-05-2010, 23:11
Speeders don't score since they are vehicles.

Sir_Turalyon
30-05-2010, 13:03
Speeders score because their rules say they score. But they don't scout (Special rules: bikes and attack bikes only), nor they have teleport homers.

As of origina question - sure, it's your models. You can paint your Ultramarines whatever colour you like.

Grand Master Raziel
30-05-2010, 16:08
No on should have a problem with you using DA Green DA models with Codex: Space Marine rules, as long as you're consistent about using the rules.

That said, you can still use Codex: Dark Angels and be reasonable competitive. C:DA does have some advantages over C:Ultramarines.

1: Better Chaplains
2: Company Masters (Captain equivalent) have Rites of Battle - give army-wide Ld10
3: Company Masters can have up to 4 weapons (pair of L-claws, plasma pistol, and storm bolter as a suggested build)
4: Belial is cheaper than a SM Termie Captain with the same gear, has Rites of Battle, makes Termies Troops, unlocks Deathwing Banner
5: Deathwing Banner - +1 attack to ever Termie in the unit? Yes, please!
6: Sammael on his jetbike - 'nuff said!
7: Sammael also has Rites of Battle and allows Ravenwing Attack Squadrons (aka Bikes) as Troops
8: DA Venerable Dreadnoughts can be had for considerably less points than vanilla Venerable Dreads
9: The DA LRC is a smidge cheaper than vanilla LRC - the DA LRC comes with the multimelta for its base cost, whereas the vanilla one has to buy it as an upgrade
10: Mixed Termie Squads

Also, some of the opinions offered regarding the disadvantageous nature of power armored DA units have been overstated. DA Tactical Squads are only going to be about 10pts more than an identically-equipped vanilla Tac Squad - which is not insignificant, but it's hardly an overwhelming handicap. Some of the DA tanks cost more than their vanilla equivalents, but those same tanks with TLLC turrets cost exactly the same either way. The DA Dev Squad is only more expensive than the vanilla variant if you take MLs - admittedly, MLs are the best heavy to take in Dev Squads, but you're still only talking a 20pt difference - 5 per ML.

The only unit that's really horrendously overpriced compared to its vanilla counterpart is the DA Assault Squad, which at 10-strong costs 30pts more than an identically equipped vanilla squad. There's a couple ways to mitigate this. One, you can simply take no upgrades in the squad beyond the obligatory power fist. I think most players will run their Assault Squads with the pair of plasma pistols or flamers. If you run your DA Assault Squad without those, you're paying the same price as the guy who gets the pair of plasma pistols in his vanilla squad. Is it fair not to get the upgrade? No, I freely stipulate it's not. However, the plasma pistols are really not the point of the squad. Besides, they might kill the guys using them anyway. The other way to mitigate is to use choppy DA Company Vets in lieu of DA Assault Squads. For about 20pts less than a 10-man DA Assault Squad, you can buy a 9-strong Company Vets squad with a Rhino. You get a unit with more attacks per figure, and since the unit can leave space in their track for a Chaplain, you save a few more points not having to buy your Chappy a jump pack.

Have I put a lot of thought into this? Yeah. Take note of the first link in my sig. In general, the vanilla dex is the stronger of the two dexes, but if you play using the iconic DA units (Deathwing and Ravenwing), then you'll be competitive with vanilla armies, even if most of your army is still comprised of power armored DA units. Besides, if you're not playing with those iconic units, why are you even playing DA in the first place?

MetalGecko23
30-05-2010, 16:23
Besides, if you're not playing with those iconic units, why are you even playing DA in the first place?
Because I fell in love with the company marines over the terminators and bikes. Deathwing and Ravenwing are cool but shouldn't be required to play the army to it fullest. Heck in the fluff every Dark Angels force shouldn't be Deathwing, Ravenwing and those green cannon fodder guys. Its the Battle Company Dark Angels that do the work the other guys just get the glory.

You can play Blood Angels without Death Company or Assualt Marines (of all stripes) and still have a good army so why must the Dark Angels be Terminators, Bikes or get lost?

Dvnjhn
30-05-2010, 19:08
One of my mates has a Dark Angels army and while they could probably do with a new codex, they are still a competitive army.

Sir_Turalyon
31-05-2010, 14:37
Also, some of the opinions offered regarding the disadvantageous nature of power armored DA units have been overstated. DA Tactical Squads are only going to be about 10pts more than an identically-equipped vanilla Tac Squad - which is not insignificant, but it's hardly an overwhelming handicap.


Difference drops to 5 points if you give them Rhino with extra stormbolter (and why shouldn't you?). Pintle mounted stormbolter is one of few underpriced things in DA Codex. And Dark Angels can give special weapons to five men squads, making useful unit from placeholder scoring troop choice, especially in Rhino.



The DA Dev Squad is only more expensive than the vanilla variant if you take MLs - admittedly, MLs are the best heavy to take in Dev Squads, but you're still only talking a 20pt difference - 5 per ML.


... And extra vanilla Devastators are 1 point more expansive, so if you take full squad we're only talking of 15 points difference. Expansive part of DA Devastators is that they must be bought in squad of 5 or 10 - vanillas can give up combat squads and field squads of 7 or 8, tweaking number of ablative bodies to cost ratio.



The only unit that's really horrendously overpriced compared to its vanilla counterpart is the DA Assault Squad, which at 10-strong costs 30pts more than an identically equipped vanilla squad.


Last I checked it was 45 points (!) - basic squad is 25 points more expansive, 5 man upgrade is 20 points more expansive? And vanillas can again take non-standard size squads to futher mitigate the cost.

Axeman1n
31-05-2010, 15:36
Non-scoring Terminators FTL. I'd just field the outdated codex.