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General Squeek Squeek
28-05-2010, 18:06
So I've been sitting around thinking about which armies will gain/lose with the new edition, and it seems Ogres will get a huge boost with the new edition.

Since models rank 3 wide, you'll actually see ogres that have decent static combat res, and their gut charge can be improved for 1/2 the cost it used to need. A unit of 6 iron guts will put out 18 str 6 attacks, and 3 str 5 impact hits for under 300 pts, and they'll actually get a rank bonus.

Also the horde rule will mean a unit of 3X6 wide bulls with the extra hand weapon will put out 61 str4 attacks, 6 str 6 impact hits, and 6 str 4 crush attacks on the charge. Plus they'll actually have static combat res.

Magic is another area that they'll gain in. Now you can run a couple of butchers and since dice are randomly generated, they'll actually get a fair number of dice to cast with.

Not to mention if being immune to panic is put into the fear rule, they're low leadership will make them alot less vulnerable.

With true line of sight, their cannon carying guys (I'm not an ogre player so this unit name escapes me at the moment), can shoot over a block of gnoblars, thereby keeping them safe from harm.

I'm not saying that this edition will push them to a top tier army by any means. This edition change will probably move them up to low-mid to mid tier though. It just seems that they gain alot from most of the changes while losing very little.

In fact I have a feeling that this change might very well put them at a higher place then my poor beastmen. :cries:

Emeraldw
28-05-2010, 18:12
Where the heck are you getting 61 attacks from? Also, there was a rumor that each rank capped at 3 attacks for ogre sized models. So if you were 3x6, you still only get the first two ranks which with XHW would be 21 str 4 attacks. Looking at it now, that must be a typo.

Ogres don't benefit from the horde rule I don't think. You have to be 10 models wide and the only benefit is an extra rank of attacks so unless your goblins or rats, I doubt anyone would use it and you still need to line up to get those attacks I think.

But yes, Ogres are getting better with the new edition. However shooting isn't getting weaker and all infantry is getting stronger so it might not have a strong net effect over where they currently stand.

papabearshane
28-05-2010, 18:12
Its about time the Ogres were off the back burner and i agree that the new change rummers for 8th might help them greatly. I cant wait to field my Ogres again with some new rules.

Ultimate Life Form
28-05-2010, 18:14
They're definitely favored by the rank and stepping up rules.

However I assume they have pretty low Ini, and that coupled with fighting in ranks means they'll most of the time take a thorough beating on the charge and since they're practically naked expect casualties. Elite troops will make mincemeat out of them before they deal a single blow.

Your Ogre death start sounds mean though, if very costly and a christmas present to any War machine.

Lord Inquisitor
28-05-2010, 18:24
I was under the impression that any models behind the first rank only get 1 attack no matter what. So six Ironguts would "only" get 12 S6 attacks, or only 3 more than 3 Ironguts.

Also, it isn't clear yet how intervening units will work for LOS purposes.

Overall, I think Ogres might be slightly better but it's mostly a wash:

Units ranking up 3-wide - GOOD - Ogres can actually have ranks
BUT - you'll need to have at least two ranks to break flanks, so the requirement to have at least 6 models to a unit will mean far less units

Crush attacks - GOOD - more attacks!
BUT - casualties from the back will mean a lot of damage taken in combat, especially against elite enemies

Loss of outnumbering - GOOD - less static CR to overcome
BUT - fear/terror nerf hurts Ogres

New Magic System - AMAZING - a single well-placed butcher will be a serious menace under the new system
BUT - striking at initiative is bad for the poor I2 ogres.

Not sure about the changes to the random charge distances or the +1 CR for charging - charging is probably going to be more important for Ogres than many other races because they really want that +1CR, especially (as always) at over 6" range but then you're dicing with random charge distances... Will have to see.

So overall, I think there's some good and some bad.

decker_cky
28-05-2010, 18:25
Random charges will likely give them more impact hits than they currently get. The second rank will boost those impact hits.

Crush them makes 6 bulls truly potent, able to cause a lot of wounds.

IMO basic 35 pt bulls will be a great choice. Relatively cheap, lots of attacks, fast, etc..

Magic gets a boost (able to take a lord level caster finally!).

If gnoblars can use the general's leadership stubborn, they'll be great at tying up units.

@Lord Inquisitor: Monstrous infantry (ogre sized) can attack with 3 attacks in the second rank, so ogres get a lot of buffs.

Lord Inquisitor
28-05-2010, 18:31
Random charges will likely give them more impact hits than they currently get. The second rank will boost those impact hits.
Why? If you set up within the enemy's maximum charge range but they fail the charge, you're probably too close to bull charge. If you're within 12" yourself, then you're at best getting a maximum of the same 12" you have now, but at worst the die roll will fail your charge.

Seems to me either you're too close or you're in the dangerous area where you have to rely on the dice. Surely it'll be harder to bull charge than before, no?

decker_cky
28-05-2010, 18:40
You get more bull charges because opponents can't just reliably move forward to block it (though with units becoming larger and gaining so much hitting power, it ceases to be the primary consideration).

mdauben
28-05-2010, 19:01
I was under the impression that any models behind the first rank only get 1 attack no matter what.
The current rumors seem to be that ogre-sized infantry (ogres, krox, etc.) get full number of attacks from second rank, unlike normal sized infantry.



Units ranking up 3-wide - GOOD - Ogres can actually have ranks
BUT - you'll need to have at least two ranks to break flanks, so the requirement to have at least 6 models to a unit will mean far less units
Overall, good, as I was never all that found of MSU lists. Assuming the vague rumors of more streamlined manuvering are also true, it might create a valuable role for blocks of gnoblars in 8e.


BUT - casualties from the back will mean a lot of damage taken in combat, especially against elite enemies
Yeah, given the unlikelihood of ogre units having more than two ranks, they are likely to start losing those extra second rank attacks as soon as they start fighting.


BUT - fear/terror nerf hurts Ogres
Due to a number of problems with the list, OK really had to rely heavily on fear to break units in 7e. Perhaps they won't need it quite so bad in 8e?


So overall, I think there's some good and some bad.
Pretty much what I think, too. Hopefully the good will work out to be a bit more than the bad, but we won't really know until everyone gets comfortable with 8e.

GodlessM
28-05-2010, 19:38
Where the heck are you getting 61 attacks from? Also, there was a rumor that each rank capped at 3 attacks for ogre sized models. So if you were 3x6, you still only get the first two ranks which with XHW would be 21 str 4 attacks. Looking at it now, that must be a typo.


6x3 unit of Bulls is a Horde so fight in three ranks. Guys in front have 3 basic attacks + XHW + Crush Them for 5 attacks each. That's 30 from rank one. Each rank after the guys get 3 attacks so that's 15. 30 + 15 + 15 = 60 and the champion makes 61. Of course this isn't including Bull Charge.

Lord Inquisitor
28-05-2010, 20:06
Oh my, I didn't realise they could get 3 attacks in the second rank... and horde rule 6 wide!?

Oh wow. Okay, I take it back. Ogres are definitely getting better in 8th. Now you lot better be right about this or I'll cry...

Although extra hand weapons are a bit of waste for that unit of 18 bulls. That's 72 points for only 6 extra attacks (you could buy two more bulls for that and get the 6 attacks that way!). With just bulls and full command, 18-strong costs 680 points though. Mind you, 914 points gives you 18 Ironguts with full command... Now that's a serious deathstar!

Too many eggs for me though. I think I'm looking at 2-3 units of 8 Ironguts with full command as the mainstay of my army however. They're not cheap at 434 points a unit, but two ranks of four looks good to me. Solid enough to take some punishment - if they get into combat unmolested then the enemy needs to inflict 5 wounds to drop a rank - and 25 S6 attacks should be more than enough!

giner
28-05-2010, 20:06
Godless, I don't think he was counting crush attacks and you would get 18 attacks per rank, making that unit even nastier than you imply. Although you do pay a fair amount of points so it seems reasonable. Personally I would not bother with XHW and just use clubs for AP.

@Lord Inquisitor; the fear 'nerf' is actually good for ogres, they rarely outnumber there enemies and with new rules they put out more hurt if there opponent fails it. Before even getting into panic immunity (a big thing from experience as an OK player (OK does not stand for ogre kingdoms there))

Lord Inquisitor
28-05-2010, 20:11
If the panic immunity thing is true that's a massive deal for the Ogres, removing one of the major weaknesses in the army. But is that still on the cards? I thought it had been debunked...

decker_cky
28-05-2010, 20:11
Just remember.....that's only 18 models for the dreaded 13th spell. :P

IMO, a few units of 6-8 models will be where it's at. A little SCR, hard hitting already, and relatively cheap. Small units of 2x2 will have a place too.

Lord Inquisitor
28-05-2010, 20:22
2x2 formation is interesting. Depending on what the additional rules for command groups actually are (the details surrounding charging seem to be as yet quite unsure), I would suspect that all Ogre units that can take them will have to at least take a banner and a musician.

General Squeek Squeek
28-05-2010, 21:10
The way I arrived at 61 attacks was as follows:

18 attacks per rank (assuming 6 wide)
3 ranks attacking (assuming horde rule) gives 54 attacks
added 6 extra attacks (for the xtra hand weapon) 60 attacks
and one extra for champion, and your at 61

Now these attacks are in addition to the 6 crush attacks and 6 impact hits.

With things striking in initiative and with blocks getting stubborn if they have more ranks, I think ranked iron guts and ranked bulls will have a place. 9 bulls is just over 300 pts. It will have 2 ranks, and 18 str4 attacks plus crush attacks. The back 3 will give you 9 ablative wounds before you lose a single attack, and the extra ranks will mean that you have alot less static combat res to overcome. Oh I almost forgot, since its rumored that outnumbering will no longer add combat res, this is one more thing that we don't have to worry about.

The magic phase will also make it viable for butchers to get the regen spell off more reliably, and if thats the case a horde sized ogre unit will be nigh unstoppable.

outbreak
28-05-2010, 23:16
They get a boost but so do other armies, ogres will now be fighting large stubborn units that if we want to bait for a flank we will need to use a ranked up ogre unit costing 250ish pts (an unranked unit can just be ignored now as it can't break flanks anyway). That said has anyone considered the scraplauncher now too? no guessing, large template, killing blow.....

GodlessM
28-05-2010, 23:44
Godless, I don't think he was counting crush attacks and you would get 18 attacks per rank, making that unit even nastier than you imply. Although you do pay a fair amount of points so it seems reasonable. Personally I would not bother with XHW and just use clubs for AP.


Bollox you're right. In my defense, I was and still am a little drunk.

chaos0xomega
29-05-2010, 04:39
You know, all this talk of a 60+ attack unit are great, but you seem to be missing something important: They haven't (to my knowledge) removed the rules that state you have to be adjacent to an enemy model in order to attack... In other words, you don't get 60 attacks, because a 5 wide unit on 25mm bases will only contact four ogre bases.

SamVimes
29-05-2010, 04:54
Erm...you seem to have missed quite a bit about 8th edition. Units fight in 2 ranks in 8th (monstrous infantry [ogres] get their full number of base attacks), and hordes (a new rule for being a certain number of modes wide) fight in 3 ranks.

tetrishermit
29-05-2010, 07:37
I sure hope ogres get better. I'm tired of our ogre player overcompensating with bull rhinox riders.

Onidan
29-05-2010, 08:17
(monstrous infantry [ogres] get their full number of base attacks)

Nope, only up to three according to the demo game.

Echunia
29-05-2010, 08:58
3 is all their base attacks man ;)

GodlessM
29-05-2010, 13:04
Nope, only up to three according to the demo game.

This is correct, but this is enough.

Von Wibble
29-05-2010, 15:37
Nope, only up to three according to the demo game.

Can't see ehw being a popular option then.

GodlessM
29-05-2010, 15:58
Why not? The guys in the front ranks still benefit from them.

Lord Inquisitor
29-05-2010, 17:00
Erm...you seem to have missed quite a bit about 8th edition. Units fight in 2 ranks in 8th (monstrous infantry [ogres] get their full number of base attacks), and hordes (a new rule for being a certain number of modes wide) fight in 3 ranks.

What he means is that you need to get everyone in the front rank in base-to-base contact in order to attack with every model.

chaos0xomega
29-05-2010, 17:54
What Lord Inquisitor said. You can in certain rare instances accomplish this (its easier if your opponent is using the hordes rule as well)but generally, my guess is that you will fail to achieve the ability get the entire front rank in base-to-base, meaning you're going to lose attacks from more than half the unit. I.E. - its a waste of points.

Lord Inquisitor
29-05-2010, 18:10
Well, it rather depends - if people start taking 10-wide units to take advantage of the additional attacks afforded by rear ranks, then it might be possible to get 6 into contact. Plus if you do end up facing 5-wide units you could conceivably reform such a deathstar into 6 ranks deep and gain Stubborn.

Certainly could be a fun formation to run at least once, although I'm not sure about how competitive it will be in the long run.

Someone mentioned earlier, Scraplaunchers look to getting a significant boost. No partials, no guessing and people taking larger units? Oh yeah.

chaos0xomega
29-05-2010, 18:16
The way I see it, is you have two options: run a 10/6 wide unit to gain extra attacks... or run the standard 5/3 wide unit to negate your opponents extra attacks and gain higher static CR. Personally I'd rather run the standard 5/3 wide unit to limit the number of attacks an opponent will have on me, get the higher CR, and have more units on the table so I can hit them with flank charges, etc.

decker_cky
29-05-2010, 19:41
7 wide is already pretty popular. I think 6-7 wide will be the average. 4 ogres have a 160mm frontage. That won't give you all your attacks against everything, but if there's no wide units, you can either judge that the extra depth attacks are worth it, or you can decide that you want to make your unit deeper to make your ogres stubborn and have full rank bonus. 6x3 becomes 3x6 pretty easily. ;) That would boost the bull charge up to S9 too, which is pretty nifty if you get it off. :P

General Squeek Squeek
29-05-2010, 23:48
@ outbreak, Yeah I do know that other armies will be getting a boost in 8th as well, but I think Ogres may be getting a slightly larger gain the other armies. It isn't going to put them in the upper tier though, and most likely it will just put them in a position where there mid to lower-mid tier as opposed to rivaling for the bottom tier that their currently in.

6 wide might not always get everyone in b2b, but assuming you at least get 4 you'll still get 41 attacks, which coupled with a decent static combat res, will see you through the day more often then not. Give it a round or two and, you'll probably outrank them and break them.

Ogre's can still field some of the hardest hitting characters too, and a few of these guys mixed in can add some even harder punch to their respective units.

oh and cheap gnoblar blocks can be used to charge people flanks, and if there targeting you gnoblars their not targeting your bulls which is always a win win.

Falkman
30-05-2010, 09:36
7 wide is already pretty popular. I think 6-7 wide will be the average. 4 ogres have a 160mm frontage. That won't give you all your attacks against everything
As long as it's wider than 79mm it will. Against any unit ranked up at least 4 20mm bases wide you won't have a problem fitting 4-wide Ogre units in.

Urgat
30-05-2010, 21:41
You know, all this talk of a 60+ attack unit are great, but you seem to be missing something important: They haven't (to my knowledge) removed the rules that state you have to be adjacent to an enemy model in order to attack... In other words, you don't get 60 attacks, because a 5 wide unit on 25mm bases will only contact four ogre bases.

He said 6 wide I think. Ogres get horde at 6 wide, and horde allows everybody to strike, base contact or not, unless that's one more rumour that got nullified.

chaos0xomega
30-05-2010, 22:18
No... Horde allows one more rank than normal to attack. That says nothing about base contact or not.

brynolf
31-05-2010, 00:17
No... Horde allows one more rank than normal to attack. That says nothing about base contact or not.

That must surely be covered in the general rules regarding fighting in ranks.

soots
31-05-2010, 00:34
As an empire player, i want my ogres back in my list!

They will finally get lots of cake

Orktavius
31-05-2010, 01:08
As an ogre player I accept your offer and will promptly report for duty with my Mercenary Ogres....CAKE FOR ALL!!!

decker_cky
31-05-2010, 02:25
As long as it's wider than 79mm it will. Against any unit ranked up at least 4 20mm bases wide you won't have a problem fitting 4-wide Ogre units in.

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. Ogres get horde at 6 models wide which was being discussed. You'd only get full attacks with that unit if opponents had a frontage 160mm wide (covering 4 entire bases).

Falkman
01-06-2010, 01:06
Ah right, lost in interpretation :p

Ghazbad_Facestompa
01-06-2010, 03:23
As an ogre player I accept your offer and will promptly report for duty with my Mercenary Ogres....CAKE FOR ALL!!!Don't forget... the cake is a lie.

Vaughnilla619
01-06-2010, 18:54
It was to my understanding the hoard rule was that all models in the first 3 ranks could attack regardless if all models in the front rank touched the enemies bases.

Malorian
01-06-2010, 19:07
It was to my understanding the hoard rule was that all models in the first 3 ranks could attack regardless if all models in the front rank touched the enemies bases.

This is a grey area as some people say it's confirmed and others say it's wrong.

Personally I would assume only those lined up would get to attack.

GodlessM
01-06-2010, 21:43
It was to my understanding the hoard rule was that all models in the first 3 ranks could attack regardless if all models in the front rank touched the enemies bases.

Big red no!