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arff98
28-05-2010, 23:27
Based on 8th rules rumors:
TOP 6 NEGATIVE CHANGES
1-Flyers pursuer using their ground movement: Carrions have a lousy 2” movement.
2-Wiping fleeing unit: only possible if passing LD. L:5 Chariots and Carrion have it more difficult
3-Only Units with 2+ ranks can negate enemy flank/rear- Chariots and Ushabties are not so good as an hammer now.
4-Casuality taken from the back- My chariots usually wiped most of the enemy front rank, that will no longer happen. I am less inclined to charge.
5-Striking in Initiative order- Sucks to be TK. I just lost all my motivation to charge
6-No more fear: No more auto break! It is way more difficult to break the enemy. Now more than ever will have to thrust in our limited capacity to cause wounds to tilt combat resolution in our favor.
TOP 10 POSITIVE CHANGES
1-Movement: like fast cavalry minus the reform: A big improvement for those who can’t march.
2-Either Overrun or reform: more movements compensates for not been able to march
3-Fire in 2 ranks and Salvo Shooting: Skeletons Archers “tar pits” got way better.
4-Chariot S7 autokill is gone.- very cool killing a 3 wound chariot is not that easy.
5-Cavalry armed with Great Weapons have +2 Strength: Back to 6th.Great for TK and TP in chariots
6-Crush them!-Cool Ushabtis with +1 St 6 impact when charging.
7-Fast cavalry can make a 12" movement at the beginning of turn: this plus the urgency might result in chariot/fast cavalry moving up to 22" in the first turn
8-Stubborn if charged from the front and have more ranks. Stubborn TK means :No more crumbling!
9-Killing Blow: a scorpion might be able to give make a Killing Blow to anything in 50mm or smaller base. That means almost everything. Only thing bigger are chariots.
10-No more partial hits and guessing distances: SSC possibly became the best war machines in the game.

Ultimate Life Form
28-05-2010, 23:38
A few of your points seem quite farfetched since you announce them as fact while no one really knows the rules yet. Especially the 'no crumble' part sounds extremely construed to me.

Also you forgot the most important thing: Magic. Unlike the other armies this is the one thing that really decides where the army stands and what it can do. We don't know as of yet what will change for Tomb Kings so as long as the erratum hasn't been released it is next to impossible to fathom the ramifications.

But as it appears yes, the almighty chariot flank charge loses some of its bite.

arff98
28-05-2010, 23:51
@Ultimate Life Form : There you go. I added the word rummors to my post. Since the
Magic rummors are such a mess ,I trully canīt coment on it. According to the rummors the number of dispel/magic dices depends on a dice throw done each magic pahase. So some turns you might get your incantations off, some turns you can`t. There is really not much difference to what happens right know.

MuNsTeNbRaU
30-05-2010, 00:41
I have only just started a fantasy army so forgive me for asking what mike look like a stupid question. But how does everyone know the new rule changes?

If the magic phase changes then tomb kings will have an advantage while everyone changes to the new system.

Time of Madness
30-05-2010, 00:52
Skull catapults and chariots will be great choices.

Keep in mind the Tomb Kings will be the first book released in the 8th edition so many things may change (more so then other armies).
Time of Madness

Zoidia
30-05-2010, 01:14
@ time of madness
i hope you're wrong about that.. because i started tomb kings because of their uniqueness and they looked awsome (i know the awsome part wont change). but if most of th movement spells are taken out, this was sugested on other threads, it wont be the same army any more.

DigitalDogParty
30-05-2010, 05:18
I don't do Tomb Kings, but it would surely be cool to see a brand new update for them during the new rule book release. Personally, I think it would make Tomb King players feel more comfortable with their rules and such since it would match with all the new game rules.

Also, if the Tomb King rumor is correct, then they should have just waited on the starter box 'til they re-did them. That way, it would mean something, than High Elves and Skaven. Don't get me wrong, plastic weapon teams sound cool, but I'd rather have them separately.

White_13oy
03-06-2010, 07:03
Sooo... with todays update on Stone Throwers, how does our SSC look? Also our magic was inferior before, now it looks as pathetic as our skeletons compared to these new lores and what they can pull off. Looks like raising models isn't unique anymore.

Yamabushi
03-06-2010, 07:32
@ Zoidia

Last I read, development on the new TK book has just been started a few weeks ago, so we can look forward to a book release next year. That said, there won't be any removing of spells from our army books from 8th ed. At most it'll be just errata on how our Incantations work in 8th.

Speaking of magic, we might be getting a major boost. Based on the sticky by Grim on bound spells, our Incantations will be even harder to stop! (assuming we still cast incantations "like a bound spell"). Magic defense wise, I feel that we'll be slightly better off than 7th, with the increased number of DDs.

EDIT: for those that can't be bothered to scroll through the sticky, here's how it works. Bound spells are cast using up to 6 power dice + the bound spells power level. So our incantations can be 2D6 + (up to 6D6) worth of levels for a Priest, as an example. Or up to 9D6 for a High Priest ^.^

@White
SSC would be awesome! S9 under the hole, and with the 25% rare slot, we can field 2 SSCs and a Casket in a 2k game :P

Memnos
03-06-2010, 08:45
Actually, if the Tomb Kings still get their movement spells, you might be looking at more people using Heavy Cavalry.

They're cheap, so you can get tons of ranks, and they charge 18 inches. That's a 1st turn charge, if you get off the movement spell. :o

In fact, an army of nothing but Tomb King heavy cavalry, Ushabti and Bone Giants could be pretty fantastic.

White_13oy
03-06-2010, 17:14
Yeah Str nine under the hole, but only three everywhere else and everyone gets an armor save now. Also I believe that you still have to follow the slot system for Core/Special/Rare. You just have to use the slots with the %'s. I don't think we'll be getting that high of incantations since you have to use power dice to boost them and we don't generate power dice.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2010, 23:42
Actually this was already being discussed >>HERE<< (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259237)


Based on 8th rules rumors:

8-Stubborn if charged from the front and have more ranks. Stubborn TK means :No more crumbling!


Ummm, do you play TK very much, that comment shows a pretty comprehensive ignorance of how the undead rule works, how exactly did you work this out? Tomb King units don't take break tests, not ever, in fact the amount of wounds they take from combat resolution isn't at all effected by their leadership, or any modifiers to it, so how exactly is being stubborn going to help them? Unless stubborn has changed a lot in 8th (which I've seen no rumours for) I totally fail to see how it will at all impact my unit's propensity to crumble.

teddet
04-06-2010, 00:11
I'm thinking that I'll take units of 6x2 ushabti (21 attacks), and field units of 30 skeleton bowmen at 3x10 -- 25 shots per turn, and 30 attacking when charged.

I'm less happy about chariots (I love them, but i'm not sure how good they'll be), but will probably still take a couple units of 3. (If you take a TK, they'll help fill out the core requirement)

Tomb guard will also be good in two ranks.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 16:03
Do we know if chariots in a second rank can get impact hits? If they can then 6 strong units of chariots would make for decent core.

Skeleton bowmen I think will be good, but they really need shields in combat, especially with their poor I. I would advocate a mix of bowmen and swordsmen myself.

arff98
04-06-2010, 22:01
.... how exactly did you work this out? Tomb King units don't take break tests, not ever, in fact the amount of wounds they take from combat resolution isn't at all effected by their leadership, or any modifiers to it, so how exactly is being stubborn going to help them?

Tomb kings, Vampire and Demons are all unbreakable armies. All three might loose wounds for loosing combat. Vampire can use regeneration, special wards and the battlle standard to minimize this crumbling. Demons can be made stubborn with a banner and minimize their "crumbling"

Tomb kings just have the construct rule, the battle standard and a magic armor to mininize crumbling.

Tombs king compared to these unbreakable armies have the harshest crumbling rules .

Now there a rumor that states that certain units can became stuborn. My logic tells be that if unbreakable units becames stubborn there must be somehing beneficial to these unbreakable units. And for undead maybe something that involves the crumbling.

arff98
04-06-2010, 22:38
Sooo... with todays update on Stone Throwers, how does our SSC look? .

S3,S9 in the center, armour saves allowed?
Not that bad. Remember that everything under the inner hole is S9. You can get up to 4 models under the inner hole. S9 is -6 to armour save which is almost no armour save for most miniatures beside S9 means you hit on 2 almost all miniatures. Even warmachines with their R 7

Sure the S3 and armour is a minnus but the no guessing distance+S9+TLOS are all big plus. We loose a little and gain a lot.

arff98
04-06-2010, 22:51
Actually, if the Tomb Kings still get their movement spells, you might be looking at more people using Heavy Cavalry..

What is so good about heavy calvary? Long ago somebody posted TK chariots are superior to TK heavy calvary in every way. That person was right. Even with the rumors that says the chariots will not gain flank bonus unless they have 2+ranks, chariots are a better option than heavy calvary.

Especially now that according to rumors striking is in initiative order. Chariots haver hard with their R4 W3 and AS 5+ hevy calvary will have it worse with thier R3 W1 AS4+

Memnos
07-06-2010, 09:36
It's spelled 'Cavalry'. Calvary is the place where Jesus was crucified. I'm gonna assume it's not a typo since it occurs four times. Unless you're bringing Catholicism in to Warhammer, I'm gonna assume you mean 'People riding horses'.

The great thing about heavy cavalry is the following:

1) They will have, assuming you speed them up, up to a 28 inch charge. Easily enough to get the flank you need.

2) They can be raised from the dead.

3) When you hit in the flanks, units aren't stubborn.

4) When you hit in the flanks, units don't get multiple ranks to strike back.

A 4+ save heavy cavalry unit will most likely defeat, then run down, any unit it's up against. It's simply better under the new edition.


What is so good about heavy calvary? Long ago somebody posted TK chariots are superior to TK heavy calvary in every way. That person was right. Even with the rumors that says the chariots will not gain flank bonus unless they have 2+ranks, chariots are a better option than heavy calvary.

Especially now that according to rumors striking is in initiative order. Chariots haver hard with their R4 W3 and AS 5+ hevy calvary will have it worse with thier R3 W1 AS4+

arff98
07-06-2010, 21:18
Thanks for the spelling correction. Cavalry...cavalry...cavalry there, I think I got it.

Well on your points : 1, 2 and 4: Both TK chariots and TK heavy cavalry can move 28 inches in one turn, be raised from the dead( both on d3) and if both units hit an enemy on their flank they can both benefit equally from the "take casualties from the back" rumor. Point number 3: Your might be right. A 10 strong cavalry unit (17*10=170 points) might have a flank bonus in 8th, a rank on their own, negate enemy ranks and negate the posibility of "more ranks=stuborn" in case the enemy unit is combat on its front.

About the 1+ on armour save is better than +1 on R, I am not so sure. Mordheim has shown me otherwise. I prefer R4 and AS 5+ than R3 and AS 4+.

Right now in 7th I never use heavy cavalry. I prefer a 160 points 4 chariot unit over a 170 points H.C. units. The rank the H.C. unit has can be easily taken out by just taking one wound. It can be healed easily but I seldom use my priests for healing, Most of their magic goes out to shooting S.S.C and charges. I think right now and maybe in 8th chariots are superior than H.C. because of :their impact hits,fast cavalry movement and highter R .They also have more attacks and more wounds for less points (4o pts = (4+D3)A and 3W vs 17 pts= 2A and 1W.)

Enigmatik1
09-06-2010, 13:45
A 4+ save heavy cavalry unit will most likely defeat, then run down, any unit it's up against. It's simply better under the new edition.

Huh? Did I miss something? Are TK "Heavy" Cavalry getting a massive point reduction and/or better stats? Or did I miss some pretty hefty core rules changes that make these painfully inefficient piles of bones actually worth fielding?

I'm sorry. I have always failed, and probably will continue failing, to see any positive virtues with TK Heavy Cavalry. I tried using them a few times and it was comical how utterly terrible they are in application.

I'll give you the "run down" part, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my limited intellect around the "defeat" part unless it's the Heavy Horsemen that are the ones being defeated...quickly and often. :p

Memnos
09-06-2010, 14:50
Sure. Let's take a unit of 20 Tomb King heavy cavalry under the new edition versus a unit of 20 Chaos Warriors of Khorne with hand weapon and shield.

Tomb Kings, with their 28 inch charge, easily get the flank.

The Chaos Warriors go first(Barring cavalry spears and lances getting always strike first).

We'll say a unit of 5*4(Though most will be doing 10*2 for massive attacks).

12 attacks, hitting on 3s=8 hits.

Wounding on 3s=5.33

After saves, 4 dead. One Heavy Cavalry gets to strike back and probably does nothing(Again, assuming that cavalry spears don't get ASF on the charge, which we don't know about)

That's pretty amazing.

The Heavy Cavalry are:

A) Cheaper.

B) Have 3 ranks, standard, flank and most likely a character or war banner.

Tied combat. Against one of the toughest new units in the game. If they have a war banner or a character, they win combat.

The Chaos Warriors are no longer stubborn.

The Chaos Warriors flee.

The Chaos Warriors get run down.

Under the new edition, having a 28 inch move for core units with a banner which makes them capable of capturing objectives means that heavy cavalry tomb king armies will not be just possible. They'll be good.

It's one of the few potential flanking armies out there that will really work.

So, to reiterate:

1) They can capture objectives.

2) They get 8+3d6 movement, meaning a practically guaranteed flank.

3) They get ranks, unlike chariots, which means that the enemy will not get stubborn against them - Which they would against the chariots.

4) They are cheap. Cheap core cavalry that can capture objectives and be raised. Vampire Counts can't do that.



Huh? Did I miss something? Are TK "Heavy" Cavalry getting a massive point reduction and/or better stats? Or did I miss some pretty hefty core rules changes that make these painfully inefficient piles of bones actually worth fielding?

I'm sorry. I have always failed, and probably will continue failing, to see any positive virtues with TK Heavy Cavalry. I tried using them a few times and it was comical how utterly terrible they are in application.

I'll give you the "run down" part, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my limited intellect around the "defeat" part unless it's the Heavy Horsemen that are the ones being defeated...quickly and often. :p

arff98
11-06-2010, 03:13
Ok Memnos, I see what you are doing here. You use heavy cavalry as a hammer that wins combat resolution using static points and achieves autobreak by fear.
The problem with this strategy in 7th is that it is an one trick pony.
The static resolution superiority you generate will only work if you attack a unit that fears you by its flank. An smart player can avoid this in a number of ways. He can just decide to flee combat, or protect his flank, or a buy a full command group etc etc.

And this is being optimistic, your strategy only works on an enemy that fears you.To be honest there a lot of units inmune to fear out there. Besides according to rumors fear will no longer cause autobreak. So that means you will win this hypothetical combat by one point. Khorne warriors are what LD 8? Your opponest jut has to rool 7 or less on 2D6. If he achieves this that will mean the end to your 340 points heavy cavalry.

Memnos
11-06-2010, 10:50
Fear isn't really important to the equation - The lack of 'Stubborn' does, however.

When you can flank an enemy, thanks to the incredible speed of the army, you do very well.

Which is better: Killing 8 Orcs and having them test on a 7, or killing none and having them test on a 6?

Chariots will simply never win combats any more because everyone will be stubborn against them. Even hitting a flank, the chariots will never ever have a second rank to remove stubborn. Since everything's stubborn, chariots will cause impact hits and then slowly die.

Large units of heavy cavalry are much more viable, since they're one of the few units cheap enough and fast enough to get a rank bonus and a flank.


Ok Memnos, I see what you are doing here. You use heavy cavalry as a hammer that wins combat resolution using static points and achieves autobreak by fear.
The problem with this strategy in 7th is that it is an one trick pony.
The static resolution superiority you generate will only work if you attack a unit that fears you by its flank. An smart player can avoid this in a number of ways. He can just decide to flee combat, or protect his flank, or a buy a full command group etc etc.

And this is being optimistic, your strategy only works on an enemy that fears you.To be honest there a lot of units inmune to fear out there. Besides according to rumors fear will no longer cause autobreak. So that means you will win this hypothetical combat by one point. Khorne warriors are what LD 8? Your opponest jut has to rool 7 or less on 2D6. If he achieves this that will mean the end to your 340 points heavy cavalry.

arff98
11-06-2010, 20:49
True. Chariots canīt pull the static combat resolution trick in 7th or , according to rumors, in 8th.
My problem with your strategy is that is not a good one. Neither chariots or TK heavy cavlary should try to do it. It can be easily countered and it has a less than 40% chance of working out if there is no fear.
You try to use 20 Heavy cavalry as a hammer, they are not made for that. For 340 points in seventh I will try to accomplshih that trick with 4 chariots (160) and 20 warrior with standard and musician(175). There you have your anvil and your mini-hammer. Besides those two units can accomplsh more jobs that 340 points of Heavy Cavalry.

Now according to the latest rumor, the unit of chaos warriors will still be stubborn since you just have to have more ranks that your ernemy at the end of the combat. It seems that it doesnīt matter if you are flanked.

MasterSlowPoke
17-06-2010, 15:18
Do you guys think that spears or hand weapons will be better for TK skeleton warriors? Or are bows so much better than both?

Skyros
17-06-2010, 21:46
Unless GW makes some really favorable FAQ's, any army that relies on bound spells or items is going to be royally boned in 8th - TK probably more than any other.

An enemy Wizard Lord will add 4 to his dispell attempts. You won't add anything to your casting attempts.

Then when *he* casts, he'll add 4 to his casting attempts, and you won't add anything to your dispell attempts.

You'll be totally rocked in both magic offense and defense. TK bound spells will always go off, but now your dice will have to come from the 'pool' instead of being generated for free.

A single Wizard Lord could probably shut down your entire magic phase effortlessly.

Granted, we haven't seen the FAQ yet, but rumors seem to point to 'not wizards' like Liche Priests and Sigmarite Priests *not* adding anything to their casting/dispelling rolls - which would make them horrifically outgunned in the magic fight.

Nighthawke
17-06-2010, 23:14
Unless GW makes some really favorable FAQ's, any army that relies on bound spells or items is going to be royally boned in 8th - TK probably more than any other.

An enemy Wizard Lord will add 4 to his dispell attempts. You won't add anything to your casting attempts.

Then when *he* casts, he'll add 4 to his casting attempts, and you won't add anything to your dispell attempts.

You'll be totally rocked in both magic offense and defense. TK bound spells will always go off, but now your dice will have to come from the 'pool' instead of being generated for free.

A single Wizard Lord could probably shut down your entire magic phase effortlessly.

Granted, we haven't seen the FAQ yet, but rumors seem to point to 'not wizards' like Liche Priests and Sigmarite Priests *not* adding anything to their casting/dispelling rolls - which would make them horrifically outgunned in the magic fight.

not quite right. yes since we are casting bound spells we dont add our level, but our priests do add dispel diceto the pool without having to channel since in the book it just says add dice.
to cast though is very weird. we have to roll like normal to determine the power level. we then have to use the powerdice you generate at the start of the magic phase to try and cast it at said level. easyish for priests and kings etc but very anoying for a high priest who could possible have to cast a spell at power level 18 :(

arff98
21-06-2010, 23:54
@ MasterSlowPoke: According to rumors :
Warriors with bow: might shoot in two ranks and use the salvo shooting rule. This rules can be used in the magic phase with incantation. Fights in two ranks. Can`t use the fight in two rank rules in magic phase.
Warrior with shield: get +6 ward save. Fight in two ranks. Canīt use the fight in two rank rules in magic phase.
Warrior with spears: Cost 9 points each. Also get +6ward save. Figth in three ranks. Can`t use the fight in three rank rules in the magic phase.

I think the best option is the warrior with bow. Is the cheapest warrior and it can get the the most hits. A unit of 20,in a 7,7,6 formation, can shoot 34 ( 17*2) arrows per turn. It a shame it can`t obtain the +6 ward save. But if you want an infantry to hold your ground in close combat is better to buy a 12 point tomb guard, than a 11 point skeleton warrior ( light armour+spear)

arff98
22-06-2010, 00:15
About the magic:
1. "Add magician level to casting doesnīt work in liche priest" Yes I too believe this theory to be true.
2." Liche priest rolls to determine the power level and then rolls again to obtain such power level" I disagree, I think liche priest in 8th will cast spells as a bound spells. Like always.

I will venture a third theory, it will be interesting to buy a level 1 hireling wizard and pay the level 2 upgrade for a total of 90 points, that way we can make full use of the generated dice and the begining of the magic phase. A normal TK+LP+LP+LV2 hireling wizard army can use 6 +D6 magic dice per turn. And this mercenary wizard can add its level to casting spells. Meanwhile our enemies can only use D6 dispell dice. I think we can get obtaint a magic superiority this way.

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 00:21
Where exactly are you going to get a "hireling wizard" from?

mortetvie
22-06-2010, 00:33
Just incase anyone was wondering, the BRB specifically states that some army books contradict the rules in the BRB and where there is a rules issue/contradiction that the army book trumps the BRB (I personally read this myself).

Therefore, our magic works exactly like it always did and enemy gets all the bonuses to dispelling and so on. Our bound spells, however (like staff of ravening and kanolpi) work like in the rulebook and so we can use powerdice to get those spells off.

With that said, the max dispel dice an enemy can intrinsically get is 6 (7 with HE/O&C with the steal PD for DD). If you have more than 6 castings of spells+bound items, then there is no way the enemy can stop all your magic!

So, yeah, I anticipate and hope for some clarification from GW with how they intend the new rules to interact with TK but as it stands according to the rulebook the TK magic still works the same.

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 00:37
Therefore, our magic works exactly like it always did and enemy gets all the bonuses to dispelling and so on. Our bound spells, however (like staff of ravening and kanolpi) work like in the rulebook and so we can use powerdice to get those spells off.

Not true. Each spellcaster has the ability to attempt to channel a dispel die, just as can be done with power dice.

mortetvie
22-06-2010, 00:54
Eumerin, did you you read the rest of my post where I said "With that said, the max dispel dice an enemy can INTRINSICALLY get is 6 (7 with HE/O&C with the steal PD for DD)."

Maybe the word intrinsically is not an easy word for some people, you can replace intrinsically with base and go from there. Max of base 6 (or 7 for HE and O&G if they take certain magical items). Better? =)

That still gives TK a good shot at getting their magic off.

Punjoke
22-06-2010, 01:13
S3,S9 in the center, armour saves allowed?
Not that bad. Remember that everything under the inner hole is S9. You can get up to 4 models under the inner hole.

Actually with the new rules for Stone throwers, only one model will take a S9 hit regardless of how many models are under the center hole. If more than one model falls under the hole, you choose which one takes a S9 hit and everything else is S3.

Pre-measuring will mean very little; the shots will still scatter and barely even tickle most units. It's really only useful for taking out big creatures or for shooting at buildings (so I guess they'll be good in Scenario #6.)

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 01:36
Eumerin, did you you read the rest of my post where I said "With that said, the max dispel dice an enemy can INTRINSICALLY get is 6 (7 with HE/O&C with the steal PD for DD)."

Maybe the word intrinsically is not an easy word for some people, you can replace intrinsically with base and go from there. Max of base 6 (or 7 for HE and O&G if they take certain magical items). Better? =)


Sorry, but intrinsic =/= base.

Semantics, I know, but if you're going to bring it up...

According to Dictionary.com, 'intrinsic' means - "belonging to a thing by its very nature"

'Base' has a few dozen definitions, so I'll merely point out that the way you're using it suggests that you're looking to define it as a "starting point", or something along those lines.

In short, they're not synonymous. And 'intrinsic' (or more specifically, 'intrinsically' in this case) does not work the way that you seem to be suggesting that it does.

arff98
22-06-2010, 01:41
Where exactly are you going to get a "hireling wizard" from?

Dogs of war. It basically an empire wizard with access to only the magic items in the rulebook.

WarhammerNoob4ever
22-06-2010, 01:47
i think everyone is missing the big piece of news! TLOS to casket!! HELLO!!! only 1 dispel scroll an army so only 1 for sure shut down of the casket a game!!!

and ppl need to re-read the TK magic section, it says they go off like bound spells and then goes on to explain what that means..... ie they never fail to cast or miscast/IF

the only thing that changes is our ACTUAL bound spells..... staff, banner etc, but thats ok, bc we now get 2d6 PD to use to cast those and dispel RiP enemy spells....

i think we got quite a boost w 8ed, Icon Bearer (i kno the second most hated thing in our book) is actually great, re-rolling all LDR tests, and giving one less crumble for 65 pts is great! way cheaper than anyone elses BSB and stats arent horrible and dont take a slot anymore

Heavy Cav, yes i said Heavy Cav, now have a use as flankin units, for 160 pts, i get 10 str 4, 10 str 3 attacks on the charge and can break ranks..... thats not bad w MV 8 + 3d6 charge range

Voss
22-06-2010, 02:01
Now there a rumor that states that certain units can became stuborn. My logic tells be that if unbreakable units becames stubborn there must be somehing beneficial to these unbreakable units. And for undead maybe something that involves the crumbling.

Unstable (crumbling by another name) exists in 8th ed rulebook. Unstable units get no benefit from stubborn. Sorry, not happening.


As to TK magic, I'll say it again- don't assume anything until you see the errata. Out of all army books, TK becomes largely disfunctional under 8th ed. magic rules and is very likely to see changes.

Warhammernoob- the way bound spells worked in 7th and they way they worked in 8th is very different. The text in the TK army book literally makes no sense, as 'cast like a bound spell' now means 'cast like a normal spell.' At best, the game makes an infinite recursive call and gets divide by zero error. At worst, various characters have a variable power level they have to roll with power dice, which will range from 1 to 18. (the other alternative is you pack 6 characters (at 2000 points) into your maximized character choices and force people to try to dispel 8 automatic spells a turn + magic item bound spells. I don't think anyone else is going to be happy about that.)

Happily, the interpretations people have come up with are essentially an exercise in a 'warhammer debate club,' meaningless and endless until a real update appears in the errata.

arff98
22-06-2010, 02:05
Actually with the new rules for Stone throwers, only one model will take a S9 hit regardless of how many models are under the center hole. If more than one model falls under the hole, you choose which one takes a S9 hit and everything else is S3.

Really? Mmmm. Too bad, So the only really good thing left for the SSC is the posibility of shooting twice per turn. Maybe fielding mercenay cannons or a halfing hot pot is a better option.

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 09:41
As to TK magic, I'll say it again- don't assume anything until you see the errata. Out of all army books, TK becomes largely disfunctional under 8th ed. magic rules and is very likely to see changes.

Quoted for emphasis.

Of course I hope things continue to work relatively similar to the way that they do in 7th edition. Of all the magic lores out there, Tomb Kings is probably the mildest magic lore while at the same time being the most heavily integrated into the basic tactics of the army. So changing the way that it works is quite dangerous. But we don't know what GW is going to do so we can't assume that it will be left alone. And we've no idea what GW is planning on doing to it.

And then there's the question of how the Hieratic Jar will be affected by what's in the FAQ...


i think everyone is missing the big piece of news! TLOS to casket!! HELLO!!! only 1 dispel scroll an army so only 1 for sure shut down of the casket a game!!!

and ppl need to re-read the TK magic section, it says they go off like bound spells and then goes on to explain what that means..... ie they never fail to cast or miscast/IF

Two things -

First, a basic priest and casket is 280 points that's coming out of the allotments for both your Heroes and your Rares (since the Casket dips into your rare choices). Just something to keep in mind, since you can now only spend 25% of your points on each.

Second, bound spells CAN miscast. No, you don't blow your army up when you do it. But either the item with the bound spell is destroyed by the screw-up, or the caster completely forgets the spell-like ability.


thats not bad w MV 8 + 3d6 charge range

Actually, that's incorrect. What you do is roll 3d6 and then drop the lowest die roll. So it's the highest two out of three dice.

BlackVomit
22-06-2010, 12:32
i think we got quite a boost w 8ed, Icon Bearer (i kno the second most hated thing in our book) is actually great, re-rolling all LDR tests, and giving one less crumble for 65 pts is great! way cheaper than anyone elses BSB and stats arent horrible and dont take a slot anymore

considering that undead will most probably always strike last, -1 CR to crumble is looking like it's not going to be enough. With the high number of attacks we're facing & the fact that we'll be striking last due to Initiative something must change... or am I missing something?

Enigmatik1
22-06-2010, 16:02
considering that undead will most probably always strike last, -1 CR to crumble is looking like it's not going to be enough. With the high number of attacks we're facing & the fact that we'll be striking last due to Initiative something must change... or am I missing something?

Nope. You aren't missing a thing. Hence, why I'm not seeing much of a difference in the performance of skeletal units in 7E as opposed to 8E. The only caveat here is a failed LD test by an enemy unit may actually allow skeletons to have a chance at winning combat, but unless they reduced the ease at which you can make most of your units all but immune to psychology, even this isn't going to matter.

BlackVomit
23-06-2010, 11:13
I've also heard (read) that outnumbered by a fear causer is gone. If this is so then either skeletons will be cheaper to buy or easier to raise (or both :) ), because it's hard to imagine 8 pts skeletons winning against 'normal' units, let alone the elite.

Enigmatik1
23-06-2010, 15:00
I've also heard (read) that outnumbered by a fear causer is gone. If this is so then either skeletons will be cheaper to buy or easier to raise (or both :) ), because it's hard to imagine 8 pts skeletons winning against 'normal' units, let alone the elite.

Thankfully, that rule is gone. I always looked at it as a "yeah, these guys are expensive and we know they blow chunks, so here's a bone so that you don't feel like you're totally throwing away points" rule.

I still felt like I was throwing away points and I hated the spirit of the rule immensely. Nevermind that I was almost never in a position to auto-break anyone I fought anyway (I never outnumbered). The one time I did manage to pull it off, I felt dirty invoking the rule. Ironically, he was the one to call the auto-break after round 2 (they should've autobroken in the first round of combat) since I'd forgotten about it completely.

Eumerin
23-06-2010, 21:04
Just thought of something potentially ugly...

In the new rules, if you miscast a bound spell then either the item with the spell is destroyed or the spell caster forgets the spell. Assuming that the miscast rules now apply to TK (which seems likely, given that miscasts didn't apply to bound spells in 7th edition but do apply now), what happens when you miscast with the casket?

Skyros
23-06-2010, 22:02
Well it's not a bound item, it's some sort of unit that 'knows' a bound spell. RAW the spell would be forgotten, I suppose.

Not very fun for the TK though.

Punjoke
24-06-2010, 01:56
Characters that have bound-spell like abilities (they use Warrior Priests as the example) don't forget the spell if they fail to cast it, they simply can't cast any more spells that turn.

BlackVomit
24-06-2010, 08:28
Just thought of something potentially ugly...

In the new rules, if you miscast a bound spell then either the item with the spell is destroyed or the spell caster forgets the spell. Assuming that the miscast rules now apply to TK (which seems likely, given that miscasts didn't apply to bound spells in 7th edition but do apply now), what happens when you miscast with the casket?

Hang on! Are you saying the Liche Priests now suffer miscasts for incantations?? That is like the strong point of the TK magic phase, and it's being taken away?

Punjoke
24-06-2010, 08:45
Hang on! Are you saying the Liche Priests now suffer miscasts for incantations?? That is like the strong point of the TK magic phase, and it's being taken away?

Assuming that TK Incantations will act like Bound Spells when our army receives its errata, here's how it'll work: if a double 6 is rolled when casting a bound spell, it will go off with Irresistible Force. The usual rolling on the miscast table is skipped, and that character cannot cast any more spells that turn.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2010, 12:10
It's spelled 'Cavalry'. Calvary is the place where Jesus was crucified. I'm gonna assume it's not a typo since it occurs four times. Unless you're bringing Catholicism in to Warhammer, I'm gonna assume you mean 'People riding horses'.

The great thing about heavy cavalry is the following:

1) They will have, assuming you speed them up, up to a 28 inch charge. Easily enough to get the flank you need.

2) They can be raised from the dead.

3) When you hit in the flanks, units aren't stubborn.

4) When you hit in the flanks, units don't get multiple ranks to strike back.

A 4+ save heavy cavalry unit will most likely defeat, then run down, any unit it's up against. It's simply better under the new edition.

You seriously want to use cavalry to flank with in 8E?

In order to ge the bonuses for flanking in 8th you need to have 2 full ranks behind the first, which means a minimum of 15 horsemen, and that allows for no casualties. What you actually need is more like 20 in 4 ranks, which not only costs something approaching 400pts, but also has an 8" flank, which makes it about as manoeuvrable as a pyramid.

Also a 28" charge assumes that you will a.) definitely get your urgency incantation off against a dispelling wizard which could be adding up to +4 to his dispel attempt, AND that you will roll maximum on your distance for charging, which is at best, extremely unlikely.

If you really want to spend almost 20% of your army points on a unit which hits like a soggy tissue and can be taken out by any ranged weapons more threatening than a stiff breeze then by all means do. I look foprward to reading the battle reports.

On the plus side, Settra FTW in 8E. We'll be able to take him in 2500pt games AND still be able to dispel stuff :D Not to mention the obscene quantity of incantations he can pump out.

Memnos
24-06-2010, 12:48
You don't need 20 models. You need 10. You misunderstand the rule. You must have at least 2 ranks - The first rank and the second rank.

This is how the rule works, Spiney.

Because of that, it is less than 200 points to get a unit that can break ranks. And is still very maneuverable because of the musician, which allows reform and then march.

And when you charge, you get 3d6 and take the highest 2 because it's cavalry, which is an average of between 8-9 inches.

MSU units of Skeletal Cavalry marching alongside units of Ushabti will, I think, be the combined charge monsters of the new edition. So, in answer to your question 'You seriously want to use cavalry to flank with in 8E', the answer is
'Yes'.

Settra will be very good in the new edition, however.


You seriously want to use cavalry to flank with in 8E?

Marshal Augustine
24-06-2010, 13:27
right now TK have just gotten better. The only thing that I am looking forward to is to find out how GW makes the incantations work.

Volley fire is awesome.
Charriots on the flank are still powerful. As the enemy does not get a lot of supporting attacks. Best used when you charge the same unit from the front with some skellies to pin them in place so that they dont reform to face the charriots.
I have seriously considered using the banner of the hidden dead to make a unit of skellies appear to negate ranks on a key unit :D.

WarhammerNoob4ever
25-06-2010, 15:17
Im sorry, but the Icon Bearer is now a MUST HAVE!!

its not only for the -1 Crumble (which is still not a bad thing) its the re-roll of ALL leadership checks, the fact that he is only 65 pts for a S4T4A2 KB/magical attacks w W2 and LDR 8 that already comes w a BSB! compare him to a base Empire Captain BSB, he comes up 20 pts less and -1 WS/-1A in exchange for KB/Magical Attacks.... thats not a bad trade

HC only need 10 models for breaking ranks, which is 160 pts, can be brought back to life, so r always gonna break ranks if hittin on the flank (u can keep them at 10 models, which not a lot of other armies can) and are a cheap place to put another standard... which is really helpful if u get the Breaking Point mission.....

i played a game w TK the other day, 2500 pts (which i think my club has unofficially agreed is the new pts limited for 8th) and i won quite handly against a WE player (yes, not the greatest 8th army but still)

I took something like
TK, destroyer build
HLP, 4+ ward, HJ, flying
LP, steed, DS
LP, Casket
IC, 2+ AS

35 skele w spears w FC, Banner of Undying Legion
20 archers w banner
2x 4x Chariots w Banner
6x Ushabi
2x Tomb Scorpin
2x SSC

SSC now own all.... though u get AS against ST shots now if not under the hole..... W my hero/lord build i had a lot of magic...my opponent agreed to just use Incantations like they were in 7th, as that is how both of us read the rules.... Chariots got owned by shotting/dryads.... 4 chariots charged a unit of 12 dryads and got hammered down, but i fluffed my impact hits a bit..... Ushabi owned hard, drawing 3 rounds of combat against an equal sized Treekin unit..... overall fun game

Punjoke
26-06-2010, 07:17
Im sorry, but the Icon Bearer is now a MUST HAVE!!

I agree; he's so cheap that he's a must-take. Now that character restrictions are so lax.


HC only need 10 models for breaking ranks, which is 160 pts, can be brought back to life, so r always gonna break ranks if hittin on the flank (u can keep them at 10 models, which not a lot of other armies can)

This I disagree with though. Skeleton HC will be just like they are now, just extra CR for your opponent. Ranks are calculated at the end of combat now, so if you run them 5x2 they'll have to take no casualties at all to maintain their rank. Combine that with their terribly low stats, and flanking with a unit of HC will only benefit your opponent.

thomas
04-07-2010, 11:24
Icon bearer is a must have!? I agree that -1 Crumble is nice, but re-roll leadership tests? How many leadership tests do you normally do with your TK army?

bluesystem
04-07-2010, 14:06
Icon bearer is a must have!? I agree that -1 Crumble is nice, but re-roll leadership tests? How many leadership tests do you normally do with your TK army?

In the new rules you can do stuff after a successful leadership test, such as re-declare charges if something you charged flees.

Spiney Norman
04-07-2010, 15:49
In the new rules you can do stuff after a successful leadership test, such as re-declare charges if something you charged flees.

Ummm, how often do you have the opportunity to redirect from a failed charge in 7th? I really don't think it will be that much of an issue in 8th either, especially as there will be fewer, larger units on the table. Also the only unit that really needs to charge in our army are chariots, everything else gains no benefit by charging now combats are resolved in Int order.

I still think 65pts is too much for a Tomb Guard champion with an extra wound and a banner that does almost nothing. The battle standard bonus is still so completely lack-luster for TK I wont be bringing an icon bearer in 8th.

Lilike
04-07-2010, 19:20
I agree despite being so cheap the Icon bearer is still not a very good choice. I like the model so it's a bit unfortunate that it's rules are so useless.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 19:37
Tomb Guard also got better with their banner of free reform. You can spread out in a 10x2 line to minimize damage from Stone Throwers, reform and then charge an enemy. That's pretty awesome.

And if TK magic works the way that this suggests in the FAQ:


6th Tomb King Magic Phase in 8th Edition. I looked this up in the Errata in my local store, yesterday.

1. Generate power dice, as usual.

2. Liche Priests are considered casters Lvl 1. High Priests are considered Casters Lvl 3.
TK Priests may not channel POWER dice, however, they may channel dispel dice.

Incantations: Work exactly like they worked before. You do not use power dice at all, but a fixed number of dice, determined by the caster (priests and high priests 2D6, kings and princes 1 D6).
You still don't get any bonuses applied, eg caster level or magit items (except for the staff of light of course)
All Incantations are determinded supportive spells, except for the damaging one which is a missile. Therefore you can cast all of them into CC.

Tchnically you could first use your 2 D6 PD to burn your power dice, and afterwards use your incnatations. Some items from the BRB might be interesting for TKs aswell. Like the bound fireball spell.

Then TK just went from bottom tier to high.

They are now the 1-dice casters that VC were in 7th when no one else can do it in 8th. In addition, their spells will always go off, and now 8th Ed. casters have a 1/3 chance to fail their dispel roll on 1 dice.

Sure, you'll dispel a Lv.4 incantation on 1 dice with a Lv.4 Wizard, but how many are you willing to try at with 1 dice?

How many Smitings and Urgencies will you see go off with so many Lords/Heroes on the field now?

Yeah.. TK are pretty freaking scary.

Lilike
04-07-2010, 20:35
One thing that I was thinking about when looking at making 8:th edition lists for TK was to take the wizards hat on the Tomb King. This will make it possible to utilize more of the generated power dice in an effective manner. Perhaps not the strongest tactic ever but still an interesting choice to spice up the magic phase, the opponent will have a really hard time dispelling your stuff if you add an lv 2 caster with 2d6 power dice to your incantations. Not an option for people who like running their Tomb King with DoE or FoS though.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 20:39
I think 2 TK builds will be the strongest in 2500, followed by a Priest and 1-2 TP.

Close combat is the name of the game, so I can see one DoE TK in a unit of TG as your ground hammer and a FoS TK in a unit of Chariots.

3x Tomb Scorpions and 2x SSCs, fill in the rest of archers and some more Chariots/Light cav and call it a day.

Chiron
05-07-2010, 01:41
Volley fire is awesome.
Charriots on the flank are still powerful. As the enemy does not get a lot of supporting attacks.

Enemy do not get any supporting attacks to Flank or Rear

Punjoke
05-07-2010, 02:31
So since people have apparently seen the FAQ, am I to assume that the point cost for the Casket of Souls comes out of the character points limit, or the rare points limit? Also, does Unstoppable Assault work with a Bone Giants Thunderstomp attacks?

If UA works on Thunderstomp and the Casket comes out of the character budget, I'm definitely maxing out on bone giants.

Lilike
07-07-2010, 01:41
I think 2 TK builds will be the strongest in 2500, followed by a Priest and 1-2 TP.

Close combat is the name of the game, so I can see one DoE TK in a unit of TG as your ground hammer and a FoS TK in a unit of Chariots.

3x Tomb Scorpions and 2x SSCs, fill in the rest of archers and some more Chariots/Light cav and call it a day.

Yeah this sounds like an nasty army, a little to much all eggs in one basket (two baskets to be precise) for my tase but still an army that will give most people a run for their money!

Spiney Norman
07-07-2010, 12:01
I'm actually enjoying the prospect of being able to field a competitive list without a single liche priest in it. My current intention is

King (collar, great weapon)
High Priest (cloak, enkil's canopi)
Prince (ruby ring, chariot & flail)

20 archers w/ full command & flaming attacks banner
6 Chariots w/ full command & BotUDL

20 Tomb Guard w/ full command & IoR
4 Ushabti
Scorpion
Scorpion

Screaming Skull Catapult

Sexiest_hero
07-07-2010, 14:34
I plan on maxing out on archers, ssc, the casket and litch priests. My plan is to just fill the air with arrows, skulls, souls, and magic missiles.

Frankly
07-07-2010, 15:07
The problem is the game is so much more faster in he movement/charge areas. All shooting will have to be really good to stop enemy units getting into combat with their battleline.

HeroFox
07-07-2010, 19:20
Posted this in the HE thread in regards to a game I had last night vs Tomb Kings (I was playing High Elves):

Right, so after one of the worst dice games I've had for a long time vs. TK, let's talk about TK really quickly.

I think they'll have one of the most unstoppable magic phases in the game if their current rumor on their FAQ is correct. In case anyone didn't know, they will still cast their spells like they do in their 6th Ed book, their Priests are Lv.1 Wizards for dispel and their High Priests are Lv.3. That means all that PD they generate on their turn, goes to their bound items. This also means that they almost always want a low roll on 2d6 for their PD because it means nothing to them. It only really messes with you.

So imagine someone taking 2x TKs, 3x LP and a LP w/ Casket in a 2500 game. That's 4 incantations at d6, 4 at 2d6, the casket and a Jar.

They will always get off their spells, be it a Lv.1 incantation for Urgency that you can't let go, or a 7 on something like Smiting. You are forced to dispel some of these, but if you only have a Lv.4 Wizard in your army, do you really want to risk the 1/3rd chance of failure? You lose concentration on 1 and 2 and you cannot dispel with that wizard for the rest of your turn while TK magic never has a chance to fail.

Anyone else sees similarities of VC 7th Ed?

Ragnar4
08-07-2010, 00:04
Seems to me, like our standard order of doing things includes

1)kill the BSB.

Anyone that allows re-rolls on ld tests when we depend on failed ld tests more than ever needs to die, and die quickly. Luckily, we can put a suicide prince in a chariot unit and unleash him.

Punjoke
10-07-2010, 05:39
Okay, so the FAQs are out now. How do we all feel about Tomb Kings now? Are they still alive (so to speak?)

Incantations are going to be extremely strong, so that's very good.

Finally, there's confirmation that the Casket of Souls hits enemy units engaged in close combat. Combined with our strong magic, this thing is going to be extremely dangerous.

On the other hand. The Destroyer of Eternities no longer works with Righteous Smiting, nor does the Bone Giant's Unstoppable Assault.

Thoughts? I was really hoping that the Bone Giant would be able to use Unstoppable Assault with Thunderstomp. Our magic phase is going to be truly terrifying now, however.

dooombot
10-07-2010, 06:02
the FAQ says Units of Skeleton Chariots can be joined by characters. I assume this means characters on chariots. It would be absurd if it didn't.

Punjoke
10-07-2010, 06:03
it specifically says Units of Skeleton Chariots can be joined by characters. I assume this means characters on chariots. It would be absurd if it didn't.

Ah, you are right. I read that rule completely backwards! Now it makes a lot more sense.

mortetvie
10-07-2010, 07:23
Anyone knows if we can give the bsb that reroll hits banner and have him join a unit of monsterous infantry like ushabti? I think that would really make the unit insane.

Also, do scorpions count as a monster for thunderstomp or do they only get a stomp attack? Either way, the constructs have a major boost.

I am thinking of trying a unit of 8 ushabti (2x4) and see how that works...

Lots attacks and stomps...plus 8 attacks in smite phase:).

Consequently anyone think that reroll banner on a bsb in a unit of 25 tombguard would be worhwhile? Have the bsb on the end of a 10 wide frontage so he can't be attacked and the unit is fighting in 3 ranks so 19 smite attacks with reroll to hit! Tg actually doing damage? Lol. Of course having a tk or 2 in the unit is always nice too.

Punjoke
10-07-2010, 07:30
Also, do scorpions count as a monster for thunderstomp or do they only get a stomp attack? Either way, the constructs have a major boost.

Tomb Scorpions are Monstrous Beasts, and thus they use Stomp. Bone Giants are our only Thunderstomp unit.

Marshal Augustine
10-07-2010, 12:12
I think that TK magic is going to dominate most games, the larger the game the more magic we get, unlike other armies that fail to scale the same way. Large blocks of archers, in he 30's rather than 20' + a couple of units of TG supported by Kings or princes. Surrounding a casquet of souls! and a couple of catapuls.

Yay.

fenrisnorth
11-07-2010, 03:09
Will Khalida be worth using now? just worried about her being a little expensive.

mortetvie
11-07-2010, 07:16
Khalid is great but not worth taking IMO, not for 420 points.

Pros: poisoned shooting, great poisoned attack, great bound spell, regen and asf with i9(so reroll hits).

Cons, 420 points!!!! :(.

Shooting is big in this game but combat is where it's at, I'd rather take 2 fighty tombkigs.

Also, what loadouts do you guys think are best for tombkings?

Think it would be best to try and get 3x tk with offensive power and not full points or 2x with full kits?

I'm thinking a tk with the +3 to strength is pretty solid but a doe/collar and skull of foes is hard to pass up!

Enigmatik1
11-07-2010, 07:50
Shooting is big in this game but combat is where it's at, I'd rather take 2 fighty tombkigs.

Also, what loadouts do you guys think are best for tombkings?

Think it would be best to try and get 3x tk with offensive power and not full points or 2x with full kits?

I'm thinking a tk with the +3 to strength is pretty solid but a doe/collar and skull of foes is hard to pass up!

Sadly, I'm going to have to disagree. We don't have enough close combat firepower to win combats most of the time. Our armies are still going to be small and most units will need to be carried by characters once they get into close combat.

I'm not even seeing Tomb Guard be able to fight its way out of the hole we seem to be in atm. It's going to be shoot as much as you can and pray the dice gods are with you once it gets into close combat, I'm afraid.

mortetvie
11-07-2010, 08:04
Well, you can tell herofox and his he army that and see what he has to say...:)

A tg unit with tk in it that can reform and flank charge and get 18+tk attacks in magic phase then combat phase is nothin to scoff at. T4 and s4 kb make them great allround units.

Games are decided in the combat phase in 8th and tk can hold their own if playe right, I mean I never had any problems. Oh, and casket now works on unit with Los and in combat, how great is that!!

Marshal Augustine
11-07-2010, 18:28
So far I have played the Tk in small point games and now more than ever they have a hard time in the magic phase... so I cant really comment on the way the army plays until I play larger games for a while. But honestly I am thinking that 2 or 3 units of tomb guard, supported by princes and kings are going to be the way to go.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 18:40
Well, you can tell herofox and his he army that and see what he has to say...:)

A tg unit with tk in it that can reform and flank charge and get 18+tk attacks in magic phase then combat phase is nothin to scoff at. T4 and s4 kb make them great allround units.

Games are decided in the combat phase in 8th and tk can hold their own if playe right, I mean I never had any problems. Oh, and casket now works on unit with Los and in combat, how great is that!!

Adam is right :P

You just cast Urgency on flanking Chariots until your opponent uses his DD and then use Urgency + Smiting on the unit you want to get into combat and win. You can do this, or vice versa.

OR.. you can sit back and shoot with SSCs until your opponent decides he's tired of getting owned and should move up to do something.

Then you go back to part 1.

mortetvie
11-07-2010, 22:31
Marshall Augustine:
You only need one unit of tg, the icon of rakaph makes the unit somewhat unique in the warhammer world and coupled with the tk magic turns a rather unimpressive unit into a beast.

A tk army also needs a ballance of liche priests now because they are te ones that can heal wounds... That is huge and i wouldn't want to have less than 3 in an army. My personal preferenc though since I play bigger games and so on.

spiderman5z
14-07-2010, 03:29
Tomb princes have done nothing but disappoint me in the past so I'm just gonna drop one and add another LP

spiderman5z
14-07-2010, 03:33
Sadly, I'm going to have to disagree. We don't have enough close combat firepower to win combats most of the time. Our armies are still going to be small and most units will need to be carried by characters once they get into close combat.

I'm not even seeing Tomb Guard be able to fight its way out of the hole we seem to be in atm. It's going to be shoot as much as you can and pray the dice gods are with you once it gets into close combat, I'm afraid.

I'm gonna have to agree with you here. Now that we can't autobreak with fear a large block of tomb guard supported by a scorpion or other heavy hitter isn't gonna be enough to win combat. Even if you win the enemies still probably gonna be stubborn and then ur stuck in a war of attrition. I think we're just gonna have to shoot em down as much as possible and use our magic to set up nice little charges and raise our guys back once they get close. We're gonna have to use alot of bound spell items like undying banner and enkhils kanopi to get ur opponent to use up his DD and it wont matter for us since we're gonna have PD to spare... hehehe

Shadow76
14-07-2010, 07:05
So my question with TKs is we have a magic item that does the same as a dispell scroll but is not a dispell scroll. I think it is an enchanted item that a TP/TK can use. Are we allowed to take that as well as a dispell scroll for the LP?

I know other armies have similar things even some that have a chance to destroy spells after they are used. I know people all over are saying we can only have one dispell scroll but in reality we can have 2 right?

On the subject of magic phase. When TK magic is really nice is when you can use allies. By our spells not taking PDs we have a ton of magic to throw around, mean while your ally uses the PD. Talking about a dominating magic phase. I personally like multiplayer games.

--------------------------
On a separate note, I have not read the new rules on pyshcology. I get my book on the 23rd. What leadership roles do we need to make on the TKs? Except for crumbling that is. Is it worth taking the BSB now? I heard someone saying about adding him to a TG unit and giving the reroll banner. My problem is that using him will only make our magic phase weaker. I think it might be more important to keep the magic phase as strong as it can be.

Punjoke
14-07-2010, 09:32
I know other armies have similar things even some that have a chance to destroy spells after they are used. I know people all over are saying we can only have one dispell scroll but in reality we can have 2 right?

We can only take one Dispel Scroll, just like every army. The Brooch isn't a Dispel Scroll, so we may take one Scroll and one Brooch, yes.


On the subject of magic phase. When TK magic is really nice is when you can use allies. By our spells not taking PDs we have a ton of magic to throw around, mean while your ally uses the PD. Talking about a dominating magic phase. I personally like multiplayer games.

I played an Alliance game with my Tomb Kings and found this to be the case. As neutral army, any other army they ally with will allow them to split their PD at their discretion. Unless you have bound items, you can give every power dice to your ally. I teamed up with High Elves and between my Casket and his level 4 archmage, we were able to completely dominate both casting and dispelling throughout the entire game for a crushing victory.

Frankly
14-07-2010, 10:29
My mate is using my TK for an upcoming tournament in a month or so. I'll been watching a few games(playing him tonite with my tourny LM) and TK has its draw backs for sure.

In a vacume the TK magic phase dominates. But its tempered by 3 draw backs. Alot of people turning up to the next few tournies will have a good amount of anti-magic since the some of the lores in the BRB are game breakers. Opponants will out match you in deploying much better combat units, better in combat and much more cost effective. Target selection AGAINST TK list is extremely easy, i.e. target T.Guard or heavy hitting units with tarpits, target MWs with support(in general ofc).

All that being said, I've enjoyed watching TK play how they're supposed to play, alot of magic movements soddy troops buffed from a strong magic phase.

Stary_Kapec
14-07-2010, 11:26
Some ranting:

After the Errata and FAQs the rules as written state clearly that Tomb Kings/Princes riding chariots can not join chariot units.

Carrions are generaly out. They have new Fly rule (only 10" fly movement) and can't march. Who would ever waste Urgency on them? Also, as flyers, they use Skirmish rules and that means they move in fixed spread formation and do not have 360deg field of view anymore. So charging with them is much more difficult and annoying and also no more tactical charges in 8th.

Chariots without characters are extremely weak now. Sure, you can still put someone on foot or mounted Lich/Icon Bearer in the unit. :rolleyes: Now they will usually strike last. Not removing enemy models as a result of Impact Hits (unless you charge really small unit) and having poor stats they will be quickly obliterated. To get a rank one needs 5 chariots, so to negate enemy ranks in a flak charge chariot units must consist of at least 10 (ten!) surviving the close combat phase chariots. Actually they are now useful in warmachines hunting only (hopefully wounding on 6s).

Tomb Guard. Hold your Horde Rule horses. Keep in mind that their upper model number limit is 25.

So generally we are forced to do maximised shooty armies with Liches spamming Smiting and maybe a block of TG (with Prince) to tie up some hard hitters. Can't wait new army book... :eyebrows:

Frankly
14-07-2010, 11:55
So generally we are forced to do maximised shooty armies with Liches spamming Smiting and maybe a block of TG (with Prince) to tie up some hard hitters. Can't wait new army book... :eyebrows:


Fare Rants in my veiw, especially for our flyer not being able to march. But I don't think shooty TK is the only way to go. Infact in 8th shooty has to be spot on to be effective, since the charge and movement pahses are so much quicker. TK doesn't provide constant damage through range very well. That said it provides bulk below average dice rolls that can spike damage dealt to the opponant, which has its own tactical upsides.

Marshal Augustine
14-07-2010, 13:22
Ok, so finished having my first 2500pt game. Vs Empire, I tried a few things:
HLP, 40 Skelly spears with BOuL in horde. Icon, King, Prince and another Priest with the Casquet. 25 TG with rakaph the Kanopi, Staff of ravening.. 20 Skelly bowmen, 2 units of 3 chariots, SSC, and scorp.

The way the encantations worked I dominated the magic phase, even without an optimized choice of casters. I loved the 40 skelly unit... they were the ultimate tarpit. And ran with the prince, who would smite them and the number of attacks was incredible. The chariots did almost nothing but protect the flanks.

Enigmatik1
14-07-2010, 16:11
Fare Rants in my veiw, especially for our flyer not being able to march. But I don't think shooty TK is the only way to go. Infact in 8th shooty has to be spot on to be effective, since the charge and movement pahses are so much quicker. TK doesn't provide constant damage through range very well. That said it provides bulk below average dice rolls that can spike damage dealt to the opponant, which has its own tactical upsides.

TK doesn't really do damage well at any range. We've always been a combined arms army. Some of us leaned more towards shooting, others towards close combat. It just seems like the 8E core rules changes shifted this balance greatly towards shooting since most of our units don't/can't hold up well in close combat. Tomb Guard are the lone exception.

Edit: Djedra's Incantation of Summoning can help offset this somewhat...provided your opponent left his level 4 at home. If he did against a Tomb King army, I'd almost say he deserves to lose. ;)

Frankly
14-07-2010, 16:29
Honetly Engimatik1, Noone is saying dont go with ranged unit or go ranged heavy, but understand that 8th Ed is very, very quick.

Imho TK look like a nice 'swing' army, an army that can swing away and catch opponants on the flank though the magic phase, not many armies can do this well or constantly, VC and dwarves are the other 2. The other thing that helps TK do this is random charges can break up your opponant's battleline, for me this is the biggest advancement of TK in 8thEd.

Lord_Shorty
14-07-2010, 18:41
I really can't understand where people has got this idea that Tomb King characters can't join chariot units when it says you can in the Tomb King FAQ. On page 1 of the Tomb King FAQ where it refers to page 25 it say you can. If I have missed something I humbly ask to be corrected.

gdsora
14-07-2010, 18:45
I really can't understand where people has got this idea that Tomb King characters can't join chariot units when it says you can in the Tomb King FAQ. On page 1 of the Tomb King FAQ where it refers to page 25 it say you can. If I have missed something I humbly ask to be corrected.

The errata changed our book, where it says characters in chariots can join chariot units.

It now says Characters can join chariot units

they erratated out characters in chariots :(

Frankly
14-07-2010, 19:05
wait but it the character buys the chariot as an upgrade when what rule stops him joining the unit? I've just flicked through the F&A.

Edit, yeah so I just re-read it. Maybe its cause my english isn't the greatness, but it looks to me like any type of character can join a chariot unit.

Skyros
14-07-2010, 21:18
If a character can join a character unit, why would that character taking a chariot bar him from joining the unit?

Does anyone seriously think GW envisioned characters on foot joining chariot units?

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:23
If a character can join a character unit, why would that character taking a chariot bar him from joining the unit?

The same reason a character riding a monster can't join a unit...


I think TK were lucky to be able to join their character chariots to units, and I don't think it would be a major loss if it went away.

Most people didn't run their chariots as large as 6, so it's not like you go look out sir anyway...

All it did was make their incantations more powerful (my unit charges!) and seeing as their magic is crazy powerful now* it might be time that they full back under the rules that everyone else has to ;)

*3 high priests at 3K anyone?

Skyros
14-07-2010, 21:25
The same reason a character riding a monster can't join a unit...

Couldn't he if it was a unit of monsters?

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:30
Nope, characters riding monsters can't join units.

Skyros
14-07-2010, 21:42
Ah. Well, I'm still not sure that's relevant to the discussion.

A character riding a chariot has unit type 'chariot' and thus can join other units of chariots.

Frankly
14-07-2010, 21:42
The same reason a character riding a monster can't join a unit...




Not that I'm disagreeing, it all sounds reasonable.

But have you seen the wording in the Faq?

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:44
Not that I'm disagreeing, it all sounds reasonable.

But have you seen the wording in the Faq?

Yup, that one is of the same quality as the dwarf master engineer joining a cannon one ;)

Enigmatik1
14-07-2010, 22:08
Yup, that one is of the same quality as the dwarf master engineer joining a cannon one ;)

As in **** poor...? :angel:

Let's keep it real here, characters on chariots in chariot units were the only thing giving chariot units any universal bite in 7E. Dare I say they'd be something of a joke in 8E, you know...since we have inept Skeletons at the reigns and all. :p

If this stands as RAW, which my gaming group has already overturned until our AB directly says otehrwise, thank Ptra, there's little reason to field chariots at all. :shifty:

Edit: Although, maybe I'm wrong...my Skeletal Steeds hit like its going out of style. They just can't seem to wound anything...ever! LOL!

Malorian
14-07-2010, 22:11
TK chariots will still be good for clearing out support units and adding kills for when you want to break a unit.

They will just have to make sure they are supported is all.

gdsora
14-07-2010, 22:29
TK chariots will still be good for clearing out support units and adding kills for when you want to break a unit.

They will just have to make sure they are supported is all.

at T4 5+ save
they already had to be supported to be viable in 7th edition (atleast they could negate ranks)

now in 8th
there pretty gosh dang useless at 40 points a pop

Malorian
14-07-2010, 22:32
That's what the high elves want you to think ;)

But seriously, what else can you get for 120 points that can hit the flank while your skeletons hit the front (to take away steadfast) that will do as much damage?

Skyros
14-07-2010, 22:40
The lack of better options does not imply an option is good. It could simply be that all options are sub par.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 22:41
The lack of better options does not imply an option is good. It could simply be that all options are sub par.

Well we can't all afford a horde of ushabti ;)

White_13oy
15-07-2010, 00:19
Well we can't all afford a horde of ushabti ;)

Yeah we can, they're just a 1170pt sandwich :)

Punjoke
15-07-2010, 06:05
Yeah we can, they're just a 1170pt sandwich :)

I don't think that's what he means. I was able to build my entire HE army for the price that it would cost me to buy a ranked unit of ushapti.

Enigmatik1
15-07-2010, 06:38
Well we can't all afford a horde of ushabti ;)

That list was too funny.

If you run the Ushabti zerg list, please do let us know how it went.

The Liche High Priest zerg made me kinda ill. That's ALOT of points in and of itself. ;)

Edit: OK. So Chariots are still good against Elves...but only because they're lightly armored and just as expensive as our troops (relatively).

Marshal Augustine
16-07-2010, 00:54
I still run one or two units of 3 chariots in my 2500pt list. They are great at holding up the flank against other harassers. And are tough enough to win the engagements and then move in to the center to hit the flanks and rear of enemy units. That +1 or +2 to combat res is always nice.

My list that I have recently been playing:

TK- DOE, Armour of Fortune? (heavy + 5+ ward)
TK- Ignore armour blade, Armour of Ages, Talisman (6+regen)

LP- Casquet
LP- Steed- Ring of Ruin (better than the staff of ravening IMO), dispel
LP- Steed- Jar, dispel RIP item

40 Skellies- Full C, BoUL
19 Skell Bowmen Musician
3 Chariots
5 LC with Musician
5 LC with Musician

25 TG- Rull c Rakaph
Scorp

SSC

It has worked well. And the incantations work SO well that I might drop a King to put in more units... a few more scorps anyone? Hehe.

Berry
16-07-2010, 01:16
LP- Steed- Ring of Ruin (better than the staff of ravening IMO), dispel
LP- Steed- Jar, dispel RIP item


Correct me if I am wrong, but doubling up on arcane items, including scrolls, still isn't allowed in 8th?

HeroFox
16-07-2010, 01:20
TK- DOE, Armour of Fortune? (heavy + 5+ ward)

You want collar in there.

Enigmatik1
16-07-2010, 01:56
Am I crazy for being under the impression that the oft-maligned Icon Bearer might not be as bad of a choice now as he has been in years past? There are a couple of fairly useful, if not situational banners in the common magic item list that could prove useful. The one that grants armor piercing (WoC, LM, Dwarfs) or flaming attacks (anything with Regeneration) to a unit instantly spring to mind. Tomb Guard already punish heavy armor fairly well as it is thanks to Killing Blow. How about adding some Armor Piercing to that soup? Oh and have another round of close combat attacks with Armor Piercing in the magic phase? Yum! Without having to give up the Icon of Rakaph...yes, please. :D

I think he may actually end up being a viable Hero depending on opponent and list. I mean I'm pulling my hair out trying to make a 2K list with a King and a High Priest. Using an Icon Bearer instead of what normally would've been a Tomb Prince saves a few points and provides supplemental benefits to the remainder of your army.

Alsiaie
16-07-2010, 02:40
I'm sort of new to fantasy. I played LM for a month or so at the start of 7th edition, but I do follow and watch fantasy gamers local here so the rules are pretty easy to understand. I have also read the new rule set a few times and I have a game Saturday at 1000 points.

I did a little research on do's and don't with TK even though 8th edition is really making us play a lot different than 7th. At 1000 points and the new point % limits, magic items has become a absolute pain in the brain. I decided to go with a King and single Priest. I found the princes lacking considering the small point difference to a King. Also by taking a priest at 1000 points, a prince is pretty much left with his underpants due to the hero percentage restriction. The only other option I could think of is going with a cheap Prince, Priest and throwing in a second tomb scorpion.

My list is as follows;

Tomb King (General)
Hand Weapon
Dragonhelm
Enchanted Shield
Ruby Ring of Ruin (This is a really hard choice over the standard collar but I really wanted to try this new item out. It's also another bound spell to blow off before my incantations)

Lich Priest

20 Skeleton Warriors

20 Skeleton Warriors
Spear and Shield
Standard Bearer
Banner of Undying Legion

3 Chariots

Tomb Scorpion

SSC

The list is 1000 points exactly. I'm short points to give the spear skeles a musician. Trading the Dragonhelm for a Dragonbane Gem to give me those points reduces the TK's save to 5+. Bad idea without a collar.

I have over 2000 points without special characters, but the skeletons I'm using now is all I own. I have pretty much everything else under the sun including 6 chariots and 20 horsemen for core. I didn't find any purpose in using Tomb Guard at this point limit.

I am a fan of creating "all comers" lists but this weekend I will be fighting either brets or high elves.

Enigmatik1
16-07-2010, 03:56
Alsiaie-

I would highly recommend against running a naked Liche Priest/Hierophant at any point range. When he dies, and he will with no protective gear, pretty much your entire army will go along with him except your King and maybe your Scorpion.

Try to find the points to at least give him the trusty Collar of Shapesh to warrant him some sort of save.

Demandrer
16-07-2010, 10:21
I was considering collecting TK is it worth doing now or waiting till new army book and models are out?

Meraell
16-07-2010, 13:04
Hey guys just a quick question: do you find a MUST to have a musician in our infantry (archers+tomb guard) units?

Alsiaie
16-07-2010, 16:54
Alsiaie-

I would highly recommend against running a naked Liche Priest/Hierophant at any point range. When he dies, and he will with no protective gear, pretty much your entire army will go along with him except your King and maybe your Scorpion.

Try to find the points to at least give him the trusty Collar of Shapesh to warrant him some sort of save.

Good call. After about 30 minutes of pondering over the Ruby Ring, I decided to shave points elsewhere. The 20 unit of archers was reduced to 15. I kept the ring and gave the priest a collar and opal amulet to keep him alive. Normally the low level fireball isn't that impressive, but being a lower point game, D6 wounds can be a big deal. Plus I get a ton of power dice to throw at it since I only have one other bound spell. I won't be missing 5 archers that much over D6 fireball hits. :evilgrin:

Marshal Augustine
17-07-2010, 02:10
I usually run the DoE with the collar in there... was just testing something else for a change.

spiderman5z
17-07-2010, 06:32
question: Do scorpions get thunderstop or regular stomp?

Punjoke
17-07-2010, 07:00
They're Monstrous Beasts, so they get Stomp.

spiderman5z
17-07-2010, 07:06
ty good sir

spiderman5z
17-07-2010, 08:11
is it just me or has anyone else never used the collar on a tomb king on my hierophant sure when he gets shot on occasion but my king is in a big unit of tomb guard and never gets hit directly...if u put a champion in the unit then all challenges go to the champ and if the champ survives then he has a chance to killing blow the character... so yeah...idk where i was going with this... just something i observed...

Von Wibble
17-07-2010, 12:44
I think with supporting attacks in play you don't need to be challenged to be threatened as a tomb king. Not to mention you could do with the protection from the character sniping spells that are now more readily available.

Looking through the items I think the crook and flail looks to be improved. Striking first against characters and rerollion to hit a lot of enemy units is nice. Throw in a potion of strength and the collar and you're good to go.

Has anyone tried out the wizard's hat on a king yet?

Marshal Augustine
17-07-2010, 17:11
nasty little thing I just thought of, if it would be the case... with the collar, if the unit champion was in a challenge and the king received a wound before the challenge took place (because of initiative) could you allocate the wound to the champ to negate any overkill bonus in the challenge?

Noserenda
17-07-2010, 18:46
Is Fozzricks Folding tower a good idea for a Casket caster? The tower will hopefully offset his lack of magical protection and a unit can garrison the tower to keep enemy off him.

It does mean awesome LOS...

Alsiaie
18-07-2010, 01:51
nasty little thing I just thought of, if it would be the case... with the collar, if the unit champion was in a challenge and the king received a wound before the challenge took place (because of initiative) could you allocate the wound to the champ to negate any overkill bonus in the challenge?

Yes and no. You would have to follow the normal casualty removal rules. The champion cannot be removed as a casualty unless he is the last non-character model left per the command group rules.

spiderman5z
18-07-2010, 01:52
what character sniping spells? and what do you mean with all the supporting attacks? I've only played one game of 8th and neither of us really new the rules very well...

Another slightly unrelated question what do you think is more worth its points 3 ushabti or 2 tomb scorpions? I ask this because I'm having trouble decide which to use in my armylist.

dooombot
18-07-2010, 04:56
what character sniping spells? and what do you mean with all the supporting attacks? I've only played one game of 8th and neither of us really new the rules very well...

Another slightly unrelated question what do you think is more worth its points 3 ushabti or 2 tomb scorpions? I ask this because I'm having trouble decide which to use in my armylist.

I'd go with 2 scorpions personally. They're just so good :)


Heres a kit I've tried with my Tomb King: Fencers Blades (+1 ATK, WS10), Armour of Silvered Steel (2+ armr save cant be improved) Collar of Shapesh.
I've used it in 2 games, but the first ended after 2 turns and the second he got stuck against a steam tank the whole game, so I haven't really seen what he could do in a real combat/challenge. But I'm just excited that there are sooo many more item combinations to try.

I like the idea of using the Folding Fortress with the Casket on top. My friend already thinks the Casket is broken because forests don't block LOS. That would give him an anuerism!

CaliforniaGamer
18-07-2010, 04:59
Is Fozzricks Folding tower a good idea for a Casket caster? The tower will hopefully offset his lack of magical protection and a unit can garrison the tower to keep enemy off him.

It does mean awesome LOS...

Wow, that is a sharp combo.

Could do up a cool Khemri themed tower to use with the casket built right into it.

bodis
18-07-2010, 07:12
Wow, that is a sharp combo.

Could do up a cool Khemri themed tower to use with the casket built right into it.


Tower? Pyramid!

spiderman5z
18-07-2010, 08:13
Tower? Pyramid!

Pyramid? Obelisk!

Reglathium
18-07-2010, 10:57
I like that idea of the tower and the casket - has anyone tried out the new casket yet and is it any good?

I always left mine on the shelf since it was so easy to kill the priest and lose the who thing... not to mention the rare slot it took up.

Punjoke
18-07-2010, 13:36
Yes and no. You would have to follow the normal casualty removal rules. The champion cannot be removed as a casualty unless he is the last non-character model left per the command group rules.

That's not true. A champion can be singled out, either via challenge, directed attacks, or sniping shots/spells. If any of the above happens he is removed and replaced with a rank and file soldier.

In addition, the restrictions for being in a challenge have been heavily lifted - if two models are in a challenge, all of their attacks are directed towards each other and they may not be attacked by any other models. They can still be affected by items and abilities outside of the challenge, however, and since the Collar targets an individual model, one could use it to kill a champion and avoid any overkill - assuming that the blow being diverted happens at an earlier stage of combat than the actual challenge, of course. Very sneaky, and certainly not intended, but in 8th edition it's allowed by the rules.

Marshal Augustine
18-07-2010, 15:27
I think I would take a wizarding hat before I took the folding tower.

White_13oy
18-07-2010, 16:39
So, how many of you have played multiple games under the new rules? I have and it seems TK got worse. Sure we have nigh unstoppable magic 2000 and up, but what are we going to do with it? All our units got worse minus the Casket, they die even quicker with attacks back and cost more than almost any core unit in comparison. Sure I can raise them, but they die fast than I can bring them back with summoning. We can't really kill anything bar luck. Chariots are crap, Ushabti are STILL not worth the price, Giant... lulz. Tomg Guard can still somewhat fight, but they'll die even quicker. So unless I see something different, I''m shelving them until the new book.

Sandals
18-07-2010, 16:56
I think that TK are back to doing what they do best - fighting them is gonna be like trying to nail down water :)

the way i see it is that they should never ever have to fight a unit in the front. ever. for any reason. the improvement in charge ranges and the unstopable nature of incantations should mean that a canny player should be able to find situations to charge flanks. that way, even if you don;t break ranks, you only have a max or 4 attacks at you. that should get any unit able to win a combat or two. I actually think that the light/heavy horse may come back as a distraction unit, very useful for keeping people at bay.

chariots may not be as useful, even without breaking ranks, as the amount of terrian should hamper them anyway. they are fast cav though, so could be quite effective as war machine/wizard/archer hunters. send em down flanks and scare your opponant just a little bit :)

i love the TK, and i will be doing an army as soon as i can. I think they've improved immensely, they're just different from what they used to be

arff98
18-07-2010, 18:24
So true Sandals, flank charge got a little less difficult. Great advice.I will try and focus on that.

HAs anyone tried the : Shield Of ptra+ armour of silvered steel+luck stone king on chariot?

It is a 2+ armour save king which can re-roll its first failed armour save. And it if it can do an armour save all enemies on base contact ( a lot since he is using a chariot) will have their WS reduced to 1.
It comes to 65 points of magical items. It can be combined with a 35 points or less weapons choice. Maybe spear of antrahak? ( st 6 on the charge + regain wound dor every wound done)

Sure some will say that fear can reduce your enemies WS to 1 for free, but what about all those fear causing/ high leadership enemies out there.

dooombot
18-07-2010, 18:28
@arff98. Shield of Ptra and Armour of Silvered Steel are both Magic Armour, so you can't take both.

arff98
18-07-2010, 19:33
@arff98. Shield of Ptra and Armour of Silvered Steel are both Magic Armour, so you can't take both.

Yes you might be right. After re-reading what says on pg 500 under Balance opf power "each model may carry on of each type of magic item" .

But what about : pg 502 of the Rulebook. Magic armour :
-"except otherwise stated magical suits of armour and shield follow the same rules as mundane ones "
and "a model can only have one suit of armour AND one shield"

Marshal Augustine
18-07-2010, 20:04
think the magical equipment rules trump that mundane armour note. The otherwise stated rule would be the only one item of each category.

Im not sold on the TK on a chariot, seems like such a good target for the enemy. And the lack of a 2+ look out sir (but will get a 4+) within a small unit of chariots makes him just a great target for cannon etc. And once on foot I think he is not as powerful because of the items he would have taken when on the chariot. Also, the lack of negating ranks with unit str put a big dent on his effectiveness. IMO 2 kings on foot are more essential given the horde nature of 8th ed. They provide much needed support to the sloggers. Extra attacks and more mobility.

arff98
18-07-2010, 20:44
ok convinced. BUt the king on charoiot deserves a chance. It is nice to use that excess magic to break up the enemy line. What is better than the king on chariot? Besides spending your 25% of your points on 5+chariots in now an obligation not a choice.

So... two kings? Tht means two combos What combos work best?
combo 01 DOE+collar maybe a 5 point dragonbane gem, pidgeon plucker pendant
combo 02 Setep+armour of destiny
combo 03 flail of skull +armour of destiny
Combo 04 Fencer blades+potion of stregth + armour of silver steel

spiderman5z
19-07-2010, 00:05
I'd rather make my tomb king killy instead of impossible to kill... he's already T5 with 5 wounds... And we need the extra hitting power

CaladanCid
19-07-2010, 01:14
If you look at the FAQ, then read the rulebook, it is very clear that GW is not saying you can no longer put characters riding in chariots in a chariot unit. What the FAQ is doing is elimating an overly complicated rule from the army book, and bringing that rule in line with the rules for joining a unit as a character. Saying that the character cannot join a chariot unit because the rule doesn't say chariot is like saying the character cannot join a cav unit because the rule doesn't say the mount is included.

arff98
19-07-2010, 01:50
I'd rather make my tomb king killy instead of impossible to kill... he's already T5 with 5 wounds... And we need the extra hitting power

Ok DOE, Setep, FOS and Fencer blades are good "killy" weapons. Are you talking about giant blade (+3 strenght) sword of bloodshed( +3 attacks) and potion of strenght(o0ne use only +3 stregth)?

Which combos will you use?

Reglathium
19-07-2010, 02:41
I think I would take a wizarding hat before I took the folding tower.

This could be good if you got the right lore, like Light or Death. I miss that magic item from Ravening Hordes that gave a Liche Priest access to the Lore of Death; Doom and Darkness and Screaming Skull Catapults was a nasty combo...

MasterSlowPoke
19-07-2010, 18:43
I like the idea of combing the Crook and Flail with a Strength potion.

spiderman5z
19-07-2010, 20:58
Ok DOE, Setep, FOS and Fencer blades are good "killy" weapons. Are you talking about giant blade (+3 strenght) sword of bloodshed( +3 attacks) and potion of strenght(o0ne use only +3 stregth)?

Which combos will you use?

any of those builds are great but i was just making a general statement. I don't have the rulebook yet so i dont know much about the magic items, but the last one u mentioned sounds downright deadly. Im just gonna be running him with doe and ruby ring for now until i get my rulebook and can have a good hard look at the new magic items.

EldarWonderland
19-07-2010, 22:09
What :)

I'll just sit here eating my Big Kahuna Burger.

Frankly
20-07-2010, 20:51
Anyone getting any TK games in?

I've gone 1/2/1 against tournament lists.

Fun army to play, lots and lots of drama around the magic phase, but still having the problem of overcosted core units :(

One great find is that heavy cavalry work well under the new rules/have a solid magic phase

Punjoke
20-07-2010, 22:02
One great find is that heavy cavalry work well under the new rules/have a solid magic phase

How so? I assume you're using them in ranks to disrupt the enemy? I guess they are our only option but they seem monstrously expensive considering how susceptible they are to losing too many to disrupt ranks after just one round of combat.

I've found that Tomb Kings make excellent allies in team games. As Suspicious Allies, they can pass their magic and/or dispel dice around to their ally no matter who they are (except for DE and Skaven) and have a full turn of Incantations + Casket PLUS a strong magic phase from their allied wizards. In this case they don't have to win a combat ever, just tarpit anything remotely dangerous for as long as possible while their ally earns victory points.

Sexiest_hero
20-07-2010, 22:46
what about a king with the flying cloak, and a king with a magic carpet?

Frankly
20-07-2010, 22:59
How so?



Sorry at work, can't say much.

Range/charge range, getting to flanks.

My major problem with TK is target selection against us, running 1 unit of T.Guard/ 2 x MWs/ rank and file creates a list easy to counter. H.cavalry is giving me another threat option atm.

In the context of the armylist, its utility more than hittingpower. That said I'm having great success the cavalry holding up a key rank and file unit from supporting key combats against my T.guard.

Note that I'm not trying to create a 'flanking unit', but a solid support unit that helps deal with key issues I'm having with T.K., mainly mobility and threat.

arff98
21-07-2010, 05:48
what about a king with the flying cloak, and a king with a magic carpet?

Used that combo in 6th, the problem is that it usually dies from combat resolution (know now as the unstable special rule).

Actaully the combo was spear of antarhak+scorpion armour+cloak of dunes
in seventh the spear of antarhak was a clearly a mounted spear so there goes the combo.

Now in 8 there is the carprt which allows the king to declare a charge as a unit with the rule fly ( cloak of dunes didnīt allow it), but it canīt join units

I donīt know...it`s solo-deploy with the carpet makes him vulnarable and if you choose the cloak he has to move 10 " and then smite itself to charge.

I will give it a try. Maybe with no US there is a better chace he will survive a combat. The problem is the rest of the combo. Should you buy something to keep him safe or something to incresae his probability of making wounds? Obviosly he must stay away from ranked units.

Frankly
22-07-2010, 20:06
Well, what do we do agaisnt WoC warriors, I played against 4 x 15 MoT units + Mok L.Cavalry + a ton of small dog units.

It done a HUGE amount of damage in combat while weathering a ton a ranged attacks outside of combat.

Any suggestions?

Marshal Augustine
23-07-2010, 02:50
Im thinking:

2 Kings one with eternal armour and collar with either a great weapon or +1 str sword with shield. The other with wizarding hat.

4 Priests 2 mounted, 2 on foot (one with casquet)
Iconbearer with AP banner

40 Skelly spears with BoUL
30 or so Bowmen (with AP banner)
Units of LC for the mounted lyches.

25 TG
2 Scorps

2 Skelly Pults

mazin1
24-07-2010, 19:44
What do you guys feel about large units of archers? I want to run 2 40 man units of archers with musicians and standard bearers? I think with the new volley rules and smiting this. Can be pretty devastating. Atleast in theory.

elusiveintrovert
24-07-2010, 20:10
What do you guys feel about large units of archers? I want to run 2 40 man units of archers with musicians and standard bearers? I think with the new volley rules and smiting this. Can be pretty devastating. Atleast in theory.

I've actually done this and had a lot of success with it. I run them ten wide and four deep for 30/60 shots a round. It gets much better if you stick Khalida into the list.

r019nd
24-07-2010, 21:41
In 7th i usually ran the shield of ptra on a prince in a chariot, with t4 standard infantry with s3 where more likely to get a wound and trigger the shield. with good alignment 2 files / ranks in the flank, will only be able to hit the character.

I can't remember if the prince has access to heavy armour to match the tomb kings save, it is a while since I put the dry ones on the field of battle.

The problem I had with the shield was that the effect never really helped on the charge as we had hit first, but that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Although, most of the posts seem to be suggesting maxing out the hero slots for liche priests, is this seen as the best way?

Marshal Augustine
25-07-2010, 01:42
yup. Liche priests are awesome.

Sandals
25-07-2010, 09:48
i can imagine it is now you can have multiple tomb kings if you want that extra combat punch. not that i've put together a list, but i would have a TK on foot as the general and another TK for some sort of offensive support, then fill up the hero allowance with priests

Marshal Augustine
26-07-2010, 04:26
2 Kings I have tried and loved. But the HLP can be just as amazing as the second hero choice. Plus because he can have 100pts of gear you can protect him and give him some equipment rather than just a 4+ ward or something.

I am finding it hard to find a list that fits together well at 2500pts. So far I have a few staples that I want to keep in the list:

King, HLP 2 more LP one with casquet (either another prince or the Icon bearer)

40 Skellies with BoUL
30 skelly bows.
25 TG with warbanner (with the king)
2 Scorpions

2 Catapults

For the rest of the points I dont know what to add, I feel like I need another block of archers... but skellies just don't really do much damage in combat, the only unit that I have that is really a hammer are the TG and even then, it usually takes a while to win combats to get them freed up to support the main line, and some units can wreak havoc on the skeleton units in close combat and if you are not careful they can crumble rather quickly against some of the harder hitting enemy units.

Anyway just wanted to put these issues up there. went to my first large tournament with my TK today. Played 3 rounds and walked away with 2 massacres in my favour and one loss... (my army routed as my banners died) and left the day with best sport. Not to shabby IMO.

Game 1 vs Dwarfs. Was over in 5, there was a lot of brutal fighting in this game, he had invested a lot of points in his warmachines, and a combination of him making some bad mistakes in deployment, and my magic being the unstoppable awesome phase that it is won me the day.

Game 2 vs High Elves: I was happy to play them because it is the one army that I have had a lot of experience playing against as my brother plays them. 50 Sea Guard, Teclis a nasty lord with some swordmasters and 4 bolt throwers. In this game my MVP's where a depleted unit of spear skellies that flank charged the huge seaguard unit, and broke them taking teclis with them then got overrun. That was like 1100pts in one charge it was awesome. Other highlights of the game included me killing both my screaming skull catapults in the same shooting phase with misfires and my casquet of souls killing 3 out of 4 bolt throwers when it went off on turn 4.

Game 3 vs Warriors of chaos: vs a veteran general that I have played before and always has a trick up his sleeve. This game went really well for me on the first two turns, my shooting was annihilating his army. But his turn three turned it for him as he made some rediculous charges (like rolling 11's for the distance) to catch my archer unit offguard making me lose a standard and the icon and prince in one round... the tomb guard came to help but by then it was too late as the spear skellies got tied up with a deamon weapon wielding jugger lord that ate the unit wholesale, making me loose my third banner and with my fortitude so low I routed. My catapults this game were awesome, they took out the sorceror on disc and did damage here and there, I should have focussed on the jugger lors as I forgot that he did not get LOS rolls when in a unit, that would have turned the tide for me having had a bit better target priority. Anyway had a tonne of fun and I am looking forward to the next tournament but this time its only 2500pts.

Things that I liked and did not like and stuff I learned:

No point in taking a small unit of 10 archers as a mage bunker, my new list has 2 units of 30 archers in it, these guys were awesome, with our magic that WILL go off thats 60 archers. every turn. nice.

The chariots were a waste TBH. I took 4 and in 2 games they died and in the third they did not do anything. They are squishy and can really only run interception against warmachine killers or small harass units. One thing tho is that the enemy will still look out for them, and therefore we can use this to our advantage make them react to them and they are fast enough to remain out of trouble usually. If they are alive long enough you can then use them in the late game to flank or rear charge units that you need to break.

All my characters rocked. And the casquet of souls is awesome as well.

I only took one tomb scorpion and I wish I would have taken 2. The huge block of tarpit skellies was great although the spears were a waste of points, and I will just give them hand weapons from now on. Anyway
cheers

mortetvie
26-07-2010, 06:46
Hey all, great discussions all round, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents and maybe stir up some ideas!

I agree that 2 tk for lords is great and I personally would think is the way to go. LHP makes the magic phase a gaurantee pretty much but you don't need one to have an increadibly powerful phase.

I have started taking wizard hat on a TK. Yes, a wizard hat... bear with me! For 279 points (gw/la included) you get a good fighty 4 wound lord who can still cast 2 smitings/urgencies on your archer/catapult units and soak up dispel dice AND either before or after the hieretic hierarchy actually put the armies power dice to good use by casting the 2 spells he gets. I mean, hasn't anyone looked at any of the new lore spells and just wished they could get their hands on some of that? I know it is random but there are no bad spells in any of the lores and you are bound to get something useful.

For example, I've gotten lore of fire spells (which go well with rubyring) and lore of light spells to lore of life...and like they pretty much make the TK magic phase over the top. I recommend everyone try it at least a few times and when you get speed of light making everything WS and I 10 within 12" of your TK you will be sold too I believe.

As far as chariots go, I am pretty sold on having just a 4 pack with the armor piercing banner, I think everyone can agree that it was frustrating how they never did enough damage without a hero and with the banner (even their impact hits get armor piercing) they are actually a threat to many things, even bretonian knights to the flank!

Anyone have much experience with a 6 pack of ushabti? I have not tried them too much so would like some feedback on that stuff, they seem cool on paper but might be hard to use properly, tombscorpions are awesome IMO and carrion lost usefulness imo.

Ymir
26-07-2010, 07:21
Ushabti should be awesome now, I mean, they have WS4 S6, and I3 (NOT great weapons, unlike lots of similar units), and their base strength 6 means strength 6 stomp attacks. While they might have a bit of a glass jaw, you can ressurrect them in your now unstoppable magic phase, or cast righteous smiting. I look forward to trying them out in 8th edition.

Yamabushi
26-07-2010, 14:20
Hullo guys, I've an upcoming 1k point game with the dirty beastmen this coming weekend :p

Any ideas on what is good to field against this army? It's my first time playing TK under 8th ed, and a first against Beastmen, so any advice on what to expect would be helpful. What I've drafted so far is:

Tomb King
Fencer's Blades
Glittering Scales
Vambraces of the Sun

Tomb Prince
LA + Shield
Sword of Might

Liche Priest

Archers x 20 with Musician

Light Horsemen x 6 with Musician

Tomb Guard x 18
Musican
Standard with Banner of The Undying Legion


It does feel a bit naked, with only 3 combat units. Any advice or suggestions would be very welcome! :)

gdsora
26-07-2010, 14:27
Ushabti should be awesome now, I mean, they have WS4 S6, and I3 (NOT great weapons, unlike lots of similar units), and their base strength 6 means strength 6 stomp attacks. While they might have a bit of a glass jaw, you can ressurrect them in your now unstoppable magic phase, or cast righteous smiting. I look forward to trying them out in 8th edition.

just be prepared for them to be shot down, quickly
T4+ 5+ save, i play against empire alot and gunpowder weapons make a mockery of constructs.
yeah you can revive, but if you have to constantly heal them before you can get in combat, means your incants arnt going somewhere where they might be more useful

lcfr
26-07-2010, 15:26
I plan on giving TK w/Wizard's Hat a whirl, since I'm only going to field two other characters: a LP w/hieratic jar (and some other goodies) and a LP w/CoS.

Enigmatik1
26-07-2010, 17:25
I plan on giving TK w/Wizard's Hat a whirl, since I'm only going to field two other characters: a LP w/hieratic jar (and some other goodies) and a LP w/CoS.

Be sure to let us know how it works out.

Me personally? I would only ever run a Wizard Hat-wearing Tomb King in a list with another King. Since the Hat takes up all of is magic item points, he'll be lacking anything resembling a useful saving throw.

I plan on treating this secondary King as a LHP who can fight back if push comes to shove.

Jericho
26-07-2010, 18:41
just be prepared for them to be shot down, quickly
T4+ 5+ save, i play against empire alot and gunpowder weapons make a mockery of constructs.
yeah you can revive, but if you have to constantly heal them before you can get in combat, means your incants arnt going somewhere where they might be more useful
A missile screen of something cheap and useless (Khemri has a couple of those to offer) would provide a nice juicy to hit modifier for those Handgunners though. War machines remain a problem but hey, they're still better than before so who can complain :p

BTW I don't think you can take armor on the Tomb King and still use the Wizard's Hat. He doesn't have a rule that allows him to wear armor and cast regular magic, unless I've totally missed something.

Marshal Augustine
27-07-2010, 05:34
A wizard can take armour if he can take mundane armour.

gdsora
27-07-2010, 07:05
A missile screen of something cheap and useless (Khemri has a couple of those to offer) would provide a nice juicy to hit modifier for those Handgunners though. War machines remain a problem but hey, they're still better than before so who can complain :p

BTW I don't think you can take armor on the Tomb King and still use the Wizard's Hat. He doesn't have a rule that allows him to wear armor and cast regular magic, unless I've totally missed something.


whoever told you we have cheap missile screening units...well um, may have missed out on the memo of tomb kings not having cheap units.


Also those better be some damn short ushabti, otherwise no modifier will be applied if they the majority of the model isnt covered by the intervening unit(s)

MuNsTeNbRaU
27-07-2010, 15:20
My first game with tomb kings went quite well yesterday. we played a 2500 pt game, my list was like this in short:

Tomb queen, great weapon, collar of shapesh
Liche high priest, golden ank, cloak of dunes, plaques of mighty incantations

Tomb prince, spear, light armour, shield, chariot of fire
Icon bearer
Liche priest, jar
Liche pries, scroll

37 skeleton warriors, spears, full command, banner of undying legion
19 skeleton warriors with bows
10 warriors with bows
3 chariots
4 chariots
5 skeleton light horsemen

Tomb scorpion
Tomb scorpion
Tomb scorpion

Bone giant

I was playing against a dark elf player who ran malkieth (sp), bsb with hagrif banner, caudren of blood, a lv2 mage , horde of spearmen, 2 units of 10 xbows, 2 bolt throwers, hydra, whitch elves and black guard.

first turn i charged my chariots into his whitch elves and managed to break them and overun into the xbox unit. IN his turn his cauldren of blood charged in and killed my prince and then they died from the curse :D.

A couple of my scorpions held up the hydra for the game (mainly because he just sat there waiting for them to come up). the other 1 beat both of the bolt thrower crews befor being hit by the horde of spearmen.

last turn the black guard rolled a double 6 to charge my skelies with spears and nearly killed my LHP. But next turn i had almost killed the black guard but malakith was a beast.

What i learnt from the game was that having a horde while it may look good is just too slow and just makes a good bunker. I also need to improve on my deployment, the bone giant did notheing for the whole game. Finally with this many pts my magic was great.

One last question, do i need line of sight for incantations and if a priest is in combat can i cast urgancy on a unit to get a flank charge?

Marshal Augustine
27-07-2010, 16:52
You dont need LOS as they are augment spells.

Nice report. My 2500pt list is something like this:

TK- Armour of destiny, collar GW

LP- 4+ ward
LP- Steed ruby ring
LP- casquet of souls

40 Skellies BOUL full c
25 Skelly Bows
25 Skelly Bows
3 chariots
7 LC with musucuan and SB

2 scorps
25 TG FC warbaner

2x SSC

Capardio
27-07-2010, 21:30
Ok so i wonder, what is the best build for foot tk ? Before 8th i was probably destroyer build, but what is the best to do now?

gdsora
27-07-2010, 23:18
Ok so i wonder, what is the best build for foot tk ? Before 8th i was probably destroyer build, but what is the best to do now?

Because i value the new armor options
I tend to give the 2+ armor, with either the dawn stone, or a ward save.
and a simple great weapon

Ymir
28-07-2010, 02:54
There are two very cheap items now that gives protection against flaming attacks; those seemed very useful for a Tomb King at first glance, but after a first big 8th edition game I'm not so sure anymore - I had opted for protection from Flames of the Phoenix, my usual bane, but, ironically, Lore of Death seems to be the big Tomb King/Hierophant-killer now.

gdsora
28-07-2010, 04:05
There are two very cheap items now that gives protection against flaming attacks; those seemed very useful for a Tomb King at first glance, but after a first big 8th edition game I'm not so sure anymore - I had opted for protection from Flames of the Phoenix, my usual bane, but, ironically, Lore of Death seems to be the big Tomb King/Hierophant-killer now.

I've had like two deaths
from flaming attacks in all of my games from both 7-8th edition

i never once worried about it

lcfr
28-07-2010, 05:00
You dont need LOS as they are augment spells.

Nice report. My 2500pt list is something like this:

TK- Armour of destiny, collar GW

LP- 4+ ward
LP- Steed ruby ring
LP- casquet of souls

40 Skellies BOUL full c
25 Skelly Bows
25 Skelly Bows
3 chariots
7 LC with musucuan and SB

2 scorps
25 TG FC warbaner

2x SSC

Mine's somewhat similar - I have a feeling that double SSC, CoS, BUL skelly horde, and 2 or more scorps are going to be the norm until we get our book.

Marshal Augustine
28-07-2010, 07:14
Yup. This list is similar to my 3K list that I had very good results with. Actually I recounted and the above list at 2.5K does not have the chariots. Then again, not a big loss IMO.

killerbot
28-07-2010, 16:55
quick question, as the TK magic doenst actually change for incantations they dont use magic dice? which gives TK a massive magic phase advantage, giving your opponent a max of 6 DD

Enigmatik1
28-07-2010, 17:30
quick question, as the TK magic doenst actually change for incantations they dont use magic dice? which gives TK a massive magic phase advantage, giving your opponent a max of 6 DD

The only things we use our power dice for are the various bound items at our disposal and/or the Wizard Hat. Additionally, in team games, you can share your available power dice pool with your teammate.

gdsora
28-07-2010, 20:28
The only things we use our power dice for are the various bound items at our disposal and/or the Wizard Hat. Additionally, in team games, you can share your available power dice pool with your teammate.

If TK can do anything now

its excel in team games. You will dominate in magic so hard, its not funny.
You just give all the generated power dice to your partner

The only time this doesnt work...is if your playing with Skaven/DE, and things go sour (of course...the game i played...2nd turn things went bad..and magic wasn't as powerful as we had to equally split the power dice)

Halelel
29-07-2010, 19:25
How are people finding carrion in this edition? So far in my 3 games of 8th with TK, my unit of 5 have done pretty much nothing besides kill a dwarf cannon in one of the games. I'll probably end up picking up some more Ushabti whenever the new book is released. I'll also echo what many have already said about chariots, they just don't seem to work all that well right now and are still pretty fragile.

I have found skeleton blocks with hw/s to be decent anvils, only problem being that skeleton archers tend to do pretty much everything else better. I'm loving my tomb guard and tomb scorpions, wish we could take more tomb guard, but it is what it is.

I'm not completely sold on 2 SSC. Maybe I have had bad luck with them, but they don't seem to do much against anything harder than cheap horde infantry. Even basic dwarf warriors were shrugging off the majority of hits. I think they may be a little too situational, unless you know you are playing against hordes of night goblins, slaves, marauders, etc.

Finally, my bone giant continues to be plagued with horrible rolls on my part, I think the model is cursed, I might have to smash it if a plastic kit is ever released, haha.

Enigmatik1
29-07-2010, 20:02
How are people finding carrion in this edition? So far in my 3 games of 8th with TK, my unit of 5 have done pretty much nothing besides kill a dwarf cannon in one of the games. I'll probably end up picking up some more Ushabti whenever the new book is released. I'll also echo what many have already said about chariots, they just don't seem to work all that well right now and are still pretty fragile.

I'm having my first 8E game with TK on Tuesday, but the general consensus on various forums is that Carrion are trash now. The changes to flying movement and the fact that they can't march have basically doomed them. Leave them in the display case and pick something else more useful.


I have found skeleton blocks with hw/s to be decent anvils, only problem being that skeleton archers tend to do pretty much everything else better. I'm loving my tomb guard and tomb scorpions, wish we could take more tomb guard, but it is what it is.

I've always hated skeletons that pretend to be warriors. They are only marginally more survivable than archers, more expensive and most importantly, can't shoot. They still lose to just about every other unit in the game in close combat anyway. So why spend the points? I see absolutely no reason to field them honestly. Just field more archers.


I'm not completely sold on 2 SSC. Maybe I have had bad luck with them, but they don't seem to do much against anything harder than cheap horde infantry. Even basic dwarf warriors were shrugging off the majority of hits. I think they may be a little too situational, unless you know you are playing against hordes of night goblins, slaves, marauders, etc.

I've never run 2 SSCs in a list. I've always run one and a casket and that isn't changing. The drop to S3 is very substantial plus with all the leadership shenanigans available now to all armies, I doubt we'll be seeing much panicking either. Just take one to deal with horde units or big gribblies and call it a day.


Finally, my bone giant continues to be plagued with horrible rolls on my part, I think the model is cursed, I might have to smash it if a plastic kit is ever released, haha.

I've yet to run Big Bone in a list, but I'm almost tempted to try. My tentative plan is to keep him out of combat until I can catch a unit that's affected by Fear, Settra's weapon (assuming I fielded him, of course) and/or the Shield of Ptra so that their weapon skill is 1. Then charge with Big Bone and see how he does...

A Wizard Hat King may also be able to leverage Big Bone's slaughtering ability if he gets the right lore/spells. You obviously can't plan on that, but can you imagine Big Bone with Speed of Light or Harmonic Convergence cast on him? :shifty:

arff98
30-07-2010, 04:46
How are people finding carrion in this edition?

Maybe 2 or mores unites of 3 carrions waiting to charge fleing units?

This job could also be done by 2 TS deployed with the ICFB rule.

Try out the 2 SSC. With the way magic is now is easier to get 4 shoots per turn. SSC role in 8th is mainly to cause panic. Tool them up for panic wih t skulls of the enemy.

Shokespeare
30-07-2010, 13:47
first of all, hey guys. just freshly registered to put in a list and maybe get a little feedback from you ;)

Itīs aimed out for a shootout list ,3000 points.

Highpriest+jar+mantle+reroll boards+ruby ring

King+shield, lucky armor, blodshed sword, dragongem

Lp : steed, staff of plague
Lp: dispel scroll, dispel broche -> edit : cascet! xD

Brb + sandstorm banner

2x30 bowmen

2x swarms (tunneling)

5xchariots+cursed banner

19 tg+ BouL

2 scorps

4 ssc (+heads)


Iīm not really convinced if the shooting will do enought, looking at my rather weak options in close combat, though 1 extra round due to the icon bearer, and a lot of additional shooting.

Definitely not playing this list against armys with high ld or other udīs / demons, but iīm guess to have it easy against skaven, O&G , ogre kingdoms.

I really miss the Giant and my Ushabtis here, so what is your opinnion? ;D

Capardio
30-07-2010, 18:55
I have found the dual ssc very good aswell. Today had a game against empire who had 3 big halberdier hordes (45 men) and i made 2 of them flee with the ssc and i inflicted about 30 casualties over the course of the game.

Jericho
30-07-2010, 23:58
SSC are still good, just against different units now. Stone thrower types will no longer be any good at taking down units like ogres/cavalry at range, but they will do very well indeed against T3 infantry blocks/hordes. Tons of S3 hits, way more than even the uber-reliable archers will be able to get in a single round (unless you're taking like 40+ archers).

Definitely not as scary as dual SSC was before, but still a decent way of dealing with the really big blocks which can take considerable time to whittle down by more conventional means.

Marshal Augustine
31-07-2010, 16:31
Tried a King with Scorpion armour, shield talisman of endurance and collar of shapesh. He ran with 40 skellies BoUL... the ultimate tarpit, being able to loose combat by 20 on any devastating charge, hold and then have the supporting ushabti/tombguard break the deadlock.

Ravenwing011
31-07-2010, 23:36
hey guys I'm making a theoretical list (bear in mind I'm still figuring stuff out)

Tomb King - 175, chariot +45, scorpion armor +40, Biting Blade +10 = 270

High Priest - 245 Talisman of preservation +45, CoS 165 = 445

Core - 31 Skeleton Archers, banner of undying +25 = 265
Core - 31 Skeleton Archers, = 240
Core - 30 Skeleton Spearmen = 270
Core - 30 Skeleton Spearmen = 270
Core - 4 chariots 160, FC - +50 = 210

Special - Scorpion = 85
Special - Scorpion = 85
Special - Scorpion = 85

Rare- Skull Catapult = 90
Rare- Skull Catapult = 90

Total Points = 2499


Basic idea, use the archers as a distraction taking advantage of volley fire rules and the second shooting phase i gain in the magic phase. I can use the TK extra move incantation to spring board his unit across the table into the enemy, and use the scorpions for anti-war machine support or anti troop if there are no war machines.

The Casket should also help to serve as a distraction for my opponent. I'm still figuring stuff out between 8th and the book so feel free to correct me or refine the list to make it better if there are any mistakes. I'm hoping to run a proxy game in two weeks using high elves to represent my army.

Wrenia
01-08-2010, 02:48
first of all, hey guys. just freshly registered to put in a list and maybe get a little feedback from you ;)

Itīs aimed out for a shootout list ,3000 points.

Highpriest+jar+mantle+reroll boards+ruby ring

King+shield, lucky armor, blodshed sword, dragongem

Lp : steed, staff of plague
Lp: dispel scroll, dispel broche -> edit : cascet! xD

Brb + sandstorm banner

2x30 bowmen

2x swarms (tunneling)

5xchariots+cursed banner

19 tg+ BouL

2 scorps

4 ssc (+heads)



How are you geting 4 SSC's? AS Rare choices you only get 3 in a 3000 point list. Right?

Shokespeare
01-08-2010, 13:59
How are you geting 4 SSC's? AS Rare choices you only get 3 in a 3000 point list. Right?

Well, 8e rulebook says up to 4 rare units of the same kind in big armys (3000+pts)

and even with the upgrade I only get on 440pts (while 750pts are 25%) so it should be go along with da rules :D

Sandals
01-08-2010, 19:02
Hate to disappoint you, but it's 0-3 in big games

arff98
02-08-2010, 02:09
hey guys I'm making a theoretical list (bear in mind I'm still figuring stuff out)

Tomb King - 175, chariot +45, scorpion armor +40, Biting Blade +10 = 270

High Priest - 245 Talisman of preservation +45, CoS 165 = 445



Too little characters for 2500 get more princes andl liche priests. You magic pahse is a little weak.
The tomb king is a very easy target for war machines since it canīt get "watch out sir" with a unit of 4 chariots.

superawesomeraptorman
02-08-2010, 06:12
I recently started collected Tomb Kings, been using a mates army for couple of months now to learn how they play before buying my own units.

Although I'm not the most seasoned general, there are several things that have become obvious during my games.

1) The cloak of dunes doesn't really cut it anymore. 20" move -> 10" move was quite harsh, and I found that you can't run from flyers, skirmishers, or fast cavalry anymore. It no longer makes an appearance in any of my lists.
2) I've found magic really painful in low level games. I rolled a 6 for the generation of power dice 4 times in my last game, 1500 point battle. I only have 4 D6 worth of dice from characters :/. For many of my 1000-1500 point game, a 4-6 coming up in power/dispel dice generation spelled doom for my magic phase
3) I've found the Bone Giant to be great. Sure he can't negate flanks anymore, and is horribly vulnerable to armies who can spam cannons/stone throwers. But with a decent unstoppable assault roll + thunderstomp he can be (nearly) as devastating as a hydra. His 3+ armour save has been great protecting him against non-great weapon hordes as well

Thats just my two cents from the last few games I've had :D

arff98
03-08-2010, 05:21
2) I've found magic really painful in low level games. I rolled a 6 for the generation of power dice 4 times in my last game, 1500 point battle. I only have 4 D6 worth of dice from characters :/. For many of my 1000-1500 point game, a 4-6 coming up in power/dispel dice generation spelled doom for my magic phase

Good news! You DONīT have to roll PD for Tomk Kings magic. Read dthe TK FAQ the part that says "the incantantion choseen is automatically cast WITHOUT using any dice from the pool....casting result.... determined by rolling a 2d6 for the priest...3d6 for the high priest....not power dice....rules of incantation also apply to "my will be done" and "light of dead"...

So no dice from the pool for HLP, LP , TK, Price, Halida Settra and Casket.

I do think you need the generated dice for things like the BOTUL etc.

zippy_tang
03-08-2010, 12:45
hey all,

just played two games yesterday with tomb kings. granted both were smaller point limits our gaming group thought it would be much better starting small and building up to learn the new 8th ed components.

both games were around 1000pts and 1250pts. through these two games i found a few things with the new tomb kings.

-tomb kings are going to struggle in small point games again. in both games the lack of magic crippled every phase of the game. i was running a prince and lich priest. now im sure i could have taken a king or HLP but there wouldn't have been much of an army to push around the table.

-chariots are very very poor at taking out any kind of ranked unit....if its got three ranks you can't really touch it in the flank. i had a unit of chariots and heavy cav combine charge a 16 strong unit of night goblins with an orc boss, only just drew the combat....only just.

-archers are the fantastic, the volley rules have made skeleton archers great for keeping the little groups of chaff off the flanks of your army.

-tomb guard while cool, most players should just invest in taking a larger 'bunker' type unit of either archers or skeleton spearman. this is due to the fact that they are simply an out dated elite unit with fairly average stats. they may be our best skelly fighters but i think we should leave the killing to the constructs this edition.

-SCC was very hit and miss, the shots that hit the sweet spot were great against infantry, however the loss of D6 wound all round lost us a valuable way of dealing with monsters and monstrous infantry.

these are just my two cents from playing two games, im sure my opinion of all the above will change over time but as a first impression id urge tomb king players to avoid small point games.

Leggo1927
03-08-2010, 19:19
Im not terribly happy with the Nerf chariots took from rank removal (over 3 times the amount needed to do the same job, whilst thinks like Dire Wolves need only twice the number,) but has anyone had any success with either form of Calvalry in this role? Im tempted to build up some more Light Calvalry as a flanking unit (and probably will do whatever the verdict, seeing as I have a Battalion to knock up.)

As a second question, how are people finding Spears, over HW/Shield combo's. In 7th I wouldn't have given them a thought, the 4+ save with Light Armour, was better. However with even more attacks, and Smiting doubling those extra attacks, what is the virdict of Spears over a 6+ ward save?

Anyway must dash, I have the now some of the now awesome Tomb Guard to get cleaned and painted, waiting for me.

WGMelchior
03-08-2010, 19:44
I've been checking out the Tomb Kings battalion box, and for the units I want to use and would buy anyway (bow skeletons and chariots) it's already a cost saving. However, it also comes with 8 'free' skeleton horsies.

I've been toying with the idea of making them into light horsemen with bows. Has anyone played with either of those in 8th? I'd either use them on their own in a unit of 5-6 or maybe have them guard my mounted liche priest.

Skyros
03-08-2010, 19:55
Honestly I'd be tempted to try to build chariots of out of plasticard or something and use the horses from the horsemen to pull those.

TK cavalry is just uniformly terrible.

Frankly
04-08-2010, 19:43
I've been using H.cavalry, the 4+ save is great and they can easily get to the flanks if you have a reasonable magic phase.

The main reason I'm using the unit is to give the opponent another target selection other than my TG.

There is a few issues with the unit, but over all its working for me.

triple_double_U
05-08-2010, 01:19
I didn't have the patience to read through the whole thing. But max out on incantation casting characters - the more the better. Your opponent will never have enough dispel dice. take some bound spells - Banner of Undying Legion - to use those wasted power dice.

Also, I saw a Bone Giant charge a unit of 20 corsairs. By the end of the first combat phase there were about 13(14 - though they were good unstoppable assault rolls) dead corsairs for a wound lost on the giant. Enough kills to deny steadfast so off they go. Bone giants are amazingly scary

Col. Tartleton
05-08-2010, 04:22
I would have thought that was more apparent to people.

He's got a minimum of 6 S6 attacks for just over 200 points. He has the potential to produce 16 S6 attacks and I would imagine about 10 is likely (which means nothing, but 6 S6 is a ton). 6 Wounds and a 3+ save to keep him alive...

With the easily spammable Djedras they'll be tough to bring down and they can carve through things. I feel like two of them is a good idea. If only for the fire draw. For less then 450 points you get two brutes who will kill everything squishy they touch and can be kept in the game thanks to magic. Certainly better offense then 15 spear skeletons although more fragile. I'd hate to see a unit hit by two bone giants...

jamano
05-08-2010, 10:55
I didn't have the patience to read through the whole thing. But max out on incantation casting characters - the more the better. Your opponent will never have enough dispel dice. take some bound spells - Banner of Undying Legion - to use those wasted power dice.

Also, I saw a Bone Giant charge a unit of 20 corsairs. By the end of the first combat phase there were about 13(14 - though they were good unstoppable assault rolls) dead corsairs for a wound lost on the giant. Enough kills to deny steadfast so off they go. Bone giants are amazingly scary

If you max out on incantations, you will have no army, and even though you can do whatever incantations you want, they're all still short range and not all that good in 8th. And the bone giant is good against WS2 stuff, but in general he's too unreliable, for every time he kills 14 corsairs theres also a time where he charges into a unit and whiffs and does 2 wounds, takes a bunch of attacks back, and explodes to combat res. Also archers and the SSC are only good for taking out the kind of units the bone giant is good against anyway, so he often lacks a role. If TKs go against some kind of elf army, they can still do very well, but other than that they suffer badly in 8th(but they do have a 10 year old book)

Col. Tartleton
05-08-2010, 20:29
Incantations are great. The spells aren't the best, but they're the best to cast. They can saturate the enemy in low powered magic.

I doubt he's going to whiff between 6-16 S6 attacks. His weapon skill is meh but I think he's going to chew through the average infantry block. Thunderstomp plus 5 attacks that can potentially be 10 attacks is pretty good. Not the best unit in the game but I think two of them will be useful because the army has to split fire with two imposing targets. He's got a 3+ save which is pretty decent so archers won't just get free hits against him. 2/3s of the potential wounds won't even be to wound and they have to roll to hit and wound him before it comes to that. Once he's in combat they can't shoot him. At that point its just a question of whether or not he can hang in there. I'm betting he can.

Blaqkheart
05-08-2010, 20:43
I'm thinking that a Khalida list in 8th is going to go well for Tomb Kings. Im interested in seeing what people come up with though.

Frankly
06-08-2010, 08:42
Not the best unit in the game but I think two of them will be useful because the army has to split fire with two imposing targets.

Yeah, this is big and one of the two main reasons I'd field a gaint or two.

Target selection against TK is just to easy for alot of opponents, who know our TG is our 'I win' button. Having other threats in the list takes the work load and pressure off the TG unit.

Also I'm finding TG aren't enough against high strength units, having another heavy hitter or two in the list helps alot.

I'm finding that; although I really catapults that my archers are going enough damage on low Toughness core infantry to maybe drop them for B.Gaints. But still all still a work in progess.

Frankly
07-08-2010, 10:58
I don't know guys. 30 bowmen or 20 bowmen in a unit. I really really thirty 30, but in some fights; maybe about 30% of the fights the unit gets wiped out and its a waste of 80pts.

20 bowmen effevtively gives you another unit to flank/charge/tarpit with.

What are your guys thoughts.

Btw, I'm running 3 x 30 bowmen units atm.

TombKingKong
07-08-2010, 18:57
I'm playing with a 19-20 tomb guard unit, with legion banner. Inside, I use to join a Tomb King and try to cast extra attack in magic phase. It's very effective, a bit expensive but effective.
Cause I use a Tomb King, I use 2 or 3 unit of Light Charriots, as light cavalry, so I can kill warmachines in a few turns (or less with magic).
2 or 3 Golem Scorpions are needed, for any porpouse.
15-20 archers are always wellcome and 2 liche priest, at least.
Of course, if we want our magic works, we'll need 2 or 3 bound items: I prefer Legion Banner and Plague Rod/Destruction Ruby.
Giant is another thing. I really like him, but be prepare to heal him everytime you can (except if there is a cannon ball with his name....) . The problem with the Giant is than he has only I1 and W4.... a few Longbeard with greatweapons will kill him in 2 rounds. So I use to charge to low strength infantry (to use D6 S6) and against heavy cavalry in last instances.
I hope this post could be usefull.
See you.

big16joe
08-08-2010, 05:45
So far I think tomb kings are okay Im fairly new to fantasy and I seem to do fine but im mostly defense heavy. I like kalida she is the bomb. And with all those poison arrows I can thin down almost any army before combat which tomb guard excell at. Yea there are negative things I dont like but there are alot of good to. We have one of the most relaiable magic armies. So far I have learned alot but I will be buying more ushabti and then putting them to the test. Currently I run 2 units of tomb guard and alot of archer warriors. Cav is unpredictiable sometimes. They tend to have they moments and then also just suck. Never really tried chariots I hear there not as good as they were. Have a couple scorpions and there great! The Skull screaming catapult is one of the best warmachines. My favorite unit overall the casket of souls its amazing I love it. Tomb king with a wiz hat is alot of fun to it randomizes the game adds something you never had before.

Toshiro
08-08-2010, 09:24
There are some things that a TK army simply can no take on though, yesterday I faced a 60 block of chaos warriors with halberds deployed in horde, so he hit first, hit on 3s and wounded on 2s or 3s and pumped out lots of attacks. There is simply nothing in the TK book that can take on something like that and it made for a very boring game.

smithers
08-08-2010, 11:37
There are some things that a TK army simply can no take on though, yesterday I faced a 60 block of chaos warriors with halberds deployed in horde, so he hit first, hit on 3s and wounded on 2s or 3s and pumped out lots of attacks. There is simply nothing in the TK book that can take on something like that and it made for a very boring game.

If I faced that unit I'd be tempted to put a block of skellies in conga line and just keep healing them to tie up half his army for a couple turns. Yeah, that's kind of cheesy but desperate times require desperate measures!

Steam_Giant
08-08-2010, 11:54
There are some things that a TK army simply can no take on though, yesterday I faced a 60 block of chaos warriors with halberds deployed in horde, so he hit first, hit on 3s and wounded on 2s or 3s and pumped out lots of attacks. There is simply nothing in the TK book that can take on something like that and it made for a very boring game.

Scorpion takes out the bsb, SSCatapult makes them run !

A unit with such a large footprint would be hard to miss and they will fail an armour save and break test eventually :confused:. You may need some chaff/diverters to slow them down, its not like CW's are mega fast anyway.

Your opponent tailored his list to face you, I believe the "dancy-shooty" armies would have laughed out loud at the giant, slow bullseye in the middle of the board.

A tailored counter idea might be 6 MSU skellies, magically push them into his face to charge each turn.

10 skellies *6 has got to be less points than 60 Chaos warriors ;)

gdsora
08-08-2010, 13:56
Scorpion takes out the bsb, SSCatapult makes them run !

A unit with such a large footprint would be hard to miss and they will fail an armour save and break test eventually :confused:. You may need some chaff/diverters to slow them down, its not like CW's are mega fast anyway.

Your opponent tailored his list to face you, I believe the "dancy-shooty" armies would have laughed out loud at the giant, slow bullseye in the middle of the board.

A tailored counter idea might be 6 MSU skellies, magically push them into his face to charge each turn.

10 skellies *6 has got to be less points than 60 Chaos warriors ;)

BSB really doesnt help, they already get panic re-rolls dont they? So the BSB wouldnt let them re-roll a re-roll.
with Str 3,+ allowing armor, and panic re-rolls, yes its possible you can panic them off with SSC...but i would not put my money on it

(or for 10 more points, to that ridiculous unit he could make it panic immune! hahah)

Marshal Augustine
09-08-2010, 03:12
Yet another game using the scorpion armour on my TK. It allowed the skelly unit to stand up to a deathstar of minataurs (only 30 skellies) for 3 rounds of combat... and thats saying something.

Yamabushi
09-08-2010, 07:18
Hi guys, I've only had a few small scale games with TK under 8th, and will be having my first 3k game this coming weekend against VC. I plan to bring the following list, and would like to get your opinions...

LORDS

LHP
Cloak of The Dunes
Neferra's Plaques
Golden Ankhra

King
Scorpion Armor
Fencer's Blades
Collar of Shapesh

HEROES

Priest
Casket
Talisman of Preservation

Priest
Enkhil's Kanopi
Ruby Ring of Ruin
Steed

Icon Bearer
Steed
Enchanted Shield
Light Armor
Luck Stone
Biting Blade

CORE

Archers x 25

Archers x 40
Musician
Standard with BOTUL

Chariots x 3

SPECIAL

Tomb Guard x 20
Full Command
Icon of The Sacred Eye

Tomb Guard x 20
Full Command
Razor Standard

RARE

Catapult

Catapult

Bone Giant

I'm a bit concern as there are no Scorpions, nor Ushabti, not even a Prince. Will my hitting power be a tad too low at 3k points?

MasterSlowPoke
09-08-2010, 12:49
Where are your Liche and Icon Bearer on steeds hanging out? They're not going to get a LOS roll, and are going to drop to shooting in the first turn.

Yamabushi
09-08-2010, 16:52
Behind the archer screen. Together with the dual Tomb Guard blocks. Yeah I know they do not get LoS, but as I'm facing VC....shooting is nothing to worry about at first turn. Once combat starts, these guys will hang around behind the main combat doing what they do best. I feel mobility may be better here.

Ymir
10-08-2010, 04:32
There are several new and great magical banners in 8th edition, and some of our old ones has suddenly gotten a lot better (Icon of the Sacred Eye, I'm looking at you). I've alredy tried chariots with the razor standard, which worked great as it applies to their impact hits, and both the Ranger's Standard, the Wailing Banner and the Banner of Swiftness seems great for chariots - Banner of the Eternal Flame might have its uses also. But what would you recommend for Tomb Guard, except the standard Icon of Rakaph. Against heavily armored enemies, I guess the Razor Standard would be the way to go, while the Icon of the Sacred Eye might give greater benefits versus most other targets. What do you guys think? Might it be that the Razor Banner would actually be better than Icon of the Sacred Eye in most circumstances?

arff98
10-08-2010, 06:35
I'm thinking that a Khalida list in 8th is going to go well for Tomb Kings. Im interested in seeing what people come up with though.

Used her in 8th on a 2.000 points list. She sucks. 420 points for 3 wounds and strenght 4 is ridiculous. Regeneration is not good enough.



Icon Bearer
Steed
Enchanted Shield
Light Armor
Luck Stone
Biting Blade


The Icon beares looses its killing blow if equiped with a magic weapon.

Yamabushi
10-08-2010, 07:02
There are several new and great magical banners in 8th edition, and some of our old ones has suddenly gotten a lot better (Icon of the Sacred Eye, I'm looking at you). I've alredy tried chariots with the razor standard, which worked great as it applies to their impact hits, and both the Ranger's Standard, the Wailing Banner and the Banner of Swiftness seems great for chariots - Banner of the Eternal Flame might have its uses also. But what would you recommend for Tomb Guard, except the standard Icon of Rakaph. Against heavily armored enemies, I guess the Razor Standard would be the way to go, while the Icon of the Sacred Eye might give greater benefits versus most other targets. What do you guys think? Might it be that the Razor Banner would actually be better than Icon of the Sacred Eye in most circumstances?

I would say for TG, the Icon of the Sacred Eye will be more useful against normal "hordes", since we only have 1 attack each, the more killy we are, the better - more hits = higher chance of getting KB as well

Razor Standard I'll equip on those that are going to crack Chaos Warriors or Knights, or other small size, heavily armored units... It really depends on what you are facing.

@arff98 - Thanks for the reminder! Guess I'll use the spare points for other bling instead. :p

big16joe
10-08-2010, 07:22
About kalida she does not suck as much as you might think. I use her especially in 8th. Sure she cost alot and she isnt able to take to many hits. The point with her is to not get hit. You just need a riduclous amount of archers with poison shots. The higher the point level the more archers. I tried to use her with supporting units but I found the best thing with her is to have overwhelming amounts of archers. If you have to few archers you are not using her for what she is there for. With the new rules to shooting archers rock. I wiped dark elfs off the table with kalida I just focused fire one unit at a time. Use your SSC to make units panic. Use tomb kings for what advantages you do have you can move and shoot with no penalty ever even if your shooting in a building or through woods. (because arrows of the asp goddess) always hitting on 5's and poision on 6's which cause auto wounds. She is amazing but it takes a certain finess to run her. Her staff is key also because if it takes a wound that enemy unit cannot move at you next turn which means you can stop any unit and focus fire to dwindle enemy forces so when they do reach you you can flank with your units and kill whats left. I have won several games with a kalida list cause overwhelming firepower. I also use the casket of souls and the ruby ring of ruin on one of my priests. Which gives you kalidas staff and that ring to throw power dice at. The ruby ring of ruin always pays for it self and adds even more firepower. I am a big fan of the queen she has her place and it changes the game I always have fun when i get to throw so much dice at the enemy players and they just stare in aw as there army gets shot off the table.

Marshal Augustine
10-08-2010, 16:18
How about an IB with the razor standard? like htat you can really pick where you nee the ap before the game, in your archers or a unit f TG... too bad he can be picked out.

Enigmatik1
10-08-2010, 17:19
How about an IB with the razor standard? like htat you can really pick where you nee the ap before the game, in your archers or a unit f TG... too bad he can be picked out.

I've entertained this notion several times, but have yet to try it. I definitely think it's a viable option, provided you keep your units close enough to one another so that he doesn't get stranded out in the open outside of any units.

Ymir
10-08-2010, 17:43
I run my Icon Bearer in a chariot. I haven't tried him out enough to evalute his usefulness, as I almost never used him in 7th were people with incantations needed to be in the hero slots, but it seems viable because chariots can benefit greatly from a magic banner (generally, only one chariot unit can have one, but with the IB in a second unit, it can also have one), or, for that matter, the simple combat resolution bonus that the battle standard bring. If I don't give him a magic banner, I like to run him with Armour of the Ages and Vambraces of the Sun, which mitigates his weaknesses somewhat - Chariot of Fire should probably be given a try as well.

Marshal Augustine
10-08-2010, 19:41
i tried him once at a tourney. He did very very well with a unit of archers... made them do a lot more damage that usual. And the other tiume he ran with the warrior skellies, and made them kill things as well... at 110 pts I think its not THAT bad... the bonus to combat res helps as well, especially when there are constructs around.

smithers
10-08-2010, 19:57
How about an IB with the razor standard? like htat you can really pick where you nee the ap before the game, in your archers or a unit f TG... too bad he can be picked out.

I really wanted to try this combo, but unfortunately our ranged attacks cannot benefit from the Razor Standard.

The models get the Armor Piercing special rule (not their weapons). The Armor Piercing special rule says that it applies to CC attacks unless it is on the weapon then ranged would work.

So anyways the Eternal Flame is nice for 10 pts to get flaming arrows (too bad they are not also magical :(

Col. Tartleton
11-08-2010, 02:29
You can take multiple icon bearers right? Therefore multiple Battle Standard Bearers?

Ymir
11-08-2010, 02:40
no, he's 0-1 (unless those antediluvian rules have been errata:ed away somewhere)

Col. Tartleton
11-08-2010, 03:13
I just thought I'd check as Army Builder lets you take multiple.

Jericho
11-08-2010, 04:46
Every time I read a comment like that, Col. Tartleton, I get this mental image from the Simpsons:

"Duffman says a lot of things..."

arff98
11-08-2010, 07:24
...The point with her is to not get hit. You just need a riduclous amount of archers with poison shots. True Khalida is there for the blessing, but in a archer strong list your enenmy just needs to make his way to your deployment zone, and when they do you are stuck with your back agaisnt the table border with skeletons with no shields or ward save and a weak lord that canīt hold her own against a cheaper lord.


... Use your SSC to make units panic.
That is no longer the best use for the SSC. In 7th panic was a nice bonus, the main thing was negating AS. Now In my experience SSC best use is taking out warmachines or dragons as fast as possible. Making units panic just got harder in 8th. With the importance of LD test and the % system what army will not use its BSB?


I am a big fan of the queen she has her place and it changes the game I always have fun when i get to throw so much dice at the enemy players and they just stare in aw as there army gets shot off the table.
Very true she is very fun in the first half of the game when the enemy is still too far away. She just sucks in the secon half when close combat occurs.

eigil-b
12-08-2010, 21:38
how many of you uses spears on your skellies now? and whats your experiences with it? Im about to asemble a unit, as im restarting my TK army, i would like to hear your experiences with spear skellies now that everyone gets to strike back, or is the hw&sheild still to prefer?

Marshal Augustine
12-08-2010, 21:58
I played spears (40 strong) for quite a few games, and have decided that HW/S are better for a tarpit unit, (that is what I use them for). Add a TK with scorpion armour, and they can hold against the nastiest units in cc until you get them support.

Ymir
13-08-2010, 03:04
I've seen someone prove mathematically somewhere on this forum that skeletons with spears perform worse than skeletons with parry bonus versus almost all possible opponents, unless they've failed their fear tests. Add to that the fact that spear skeletons costs 10(!) points. I hope it'll get fixed in the next army book, I've modelled lots of my skeletons with spears before I knew better (it's just so...thematically right), but it's a really bad option, as it stands now. If you really, really want to use it, I guess it might prove worthwile if there's an Icon Bearer with the Icon of the Sacred Eye in the skeleton unit, and you can somehow make him survive until it's the skeletons turn to strike in the first round of combat, and the opponents have Toughness 3 or less and a bad or no armour save.

It's very simple really, the only thing skeletons do good is tar-pitting, and they're much worse now than ever before due to the über-nerf of Fear and the fact that all other infantry blocks get steadfast, but skeletons crumble just as easily as before. They have no redeeming feature left, maybe except for the fact that they can be somewhat easily healed or rushed into an opponents flank in the now nigh-unstoppable Tomb Kings magic phase.

To put spears, even light armour, on a unit that's good for nothing anyway is simply a waste of points. To run them naked with bows is probably by far the best option now, given that Arrows of the Asp has gotten better than ever before, and they can form ranks and still shoot with most of the models.

I'd wait with modelling the skeletons, if possible, as there's no telling what interesting options they might get in the next armybook, which shouldn't be far away.

3Xhume
13-08-2010, 03:49
Have any of you tried Settra for 8th edition? I have never played him before because the two lords restriction, but now at 2500 points, he fits perfectly pointwise. I kinda interested to play settra. In fact, I plan to direct order him. But before that, I would like peoples opinion about him. In my thoughts, the list should looked like this:

Settra
TP on foot with GW
TP on chariot
Iconbearer

3 Chariot
3 Chariot
15+ Heavy horsemen
2 Tomb Swarm

25 Tomb Guard
2 Tomb Scorpion

2 SSC

What do you guys think?

Ymir
13-08-2010, 04:40
I'd skip the heavy horsemen if possible, chariots are sooo much better value for the points.

Also, are you sure that this list has the required 25% core units?

I've never actually tried Settra, ironically, he might have been more viable before, where the all-chariot-list was actually a possibility. Or, well, it still is, but you won't win with it. On the other hand, Liche priests are not required for dispel dice anymore, so yeah, this might work, although I'm not sure abotu the lack of shooting (except the chariots) and static combat resolution. A really good Settra list should probably go for two or even three units of Tomb Guard, with a solid core of chariots and skeleton archers as backup.

Still, it seems like a fun list, and I'd be really interested too see how it performs, so please come back and tell us when you've tried it.

Vandelan
13-08-2010, 20:20
I've seen someone prove mathematically somewhere on this forum that skeletons with spears perform worse than skeletons with parry bonus versus almost all possible opponents, unless they've failed their fear tests. Add to that the fact that spear skeletons costs 10(!) points.

That was probably me in this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269062). I haven't gotten around to working on any more articles considering how busy I've been getting ready for another Fall at college.

meneroth
14-08-2010, 02:35
with settra you gotta max on units he gets the free incantation with, its the only way to compete in the magic phase, offensivly at least. Because he can't take any liche priests he is gonna be your only caster so your gonna have trouble stopping opponents magic. its not as bad as it was in 7th, but still rough.

the other problem is that he is supposed to be used with hvy cav, chariots at TG. 2 of those are pretty fast while the other is pretty slow. your army could get spread apart if you dont get urgency off on the TG as much as possible.

Another unit worth taking with settra is the bone giant. he's quick and can help out TG by adding casualties to combat. you may be torn between more TG or scorpions to fill your 50% special. I advise taking at least 1 scorpion and burying it to go war machine hunting, 2 is preffereable but you still want a strong "core" of TG. fill the rest of the army with chariot units and/or hvy cav and you might have a shot, though both of those units are pretty bad these days.

arff98
14-08-2010, 04:38
At 2.500 with Setra,zero priest max princes maybe IB, one unit of tomb guards, many many chariots. minimize HC. IF you maxime heroes tehre is no room for anything more-
Try to built two stong units.
UNIT 1)One with chariots using settra, at least 5 strong for "look out sir " purposes*.Use the IB in tis units so it can use two standarts.
UNIT2) The tomb guards with the princes. banner of rakah seem like a good choice.
The purpouse of the other units is to get flank and rear charges. Thar way units 1 and 2 provide the wounds and the otherd help with static resolution.

*Does settra get the "look out sir " with his gigantic chariot?

Chris_
16-08-2010, 09:15
*Does settra get the "look out sir " with his gigantic chariot?I would say yes as they are all of the troop type "Chariot". But you need at least 5 more "rank-and-file" chariots for this to work, 6 if you have a champion. The unit is no longer fast cavalry with him in it though.

arff98
16-08-2010, 17:21
In the games I played yesterday I realized that a 25 strong tomb guard is still strong enough in 8.This particular TG unit had 2 kings and a IB in it. It broke through the enemy line killing a 5 chaos cavalry with general. Once it was on the other side its magic was enough for Ąt to maneuver aronund and defeat an30 barbarian horde ( twice) and a 15 strong unit of Khorne chaos warriors.

I also tried a unit 30 skeleton warriors with two kings and a IB in it and it took way too many wounds and was not able to win any combats.

I think that at 2.000 points a 25 TG unit is a must and the 500 points of basic should be filled up with chariots. Big units of skeleton infantry are just too weak, if they are archers their 3S is way to low and if their are suited uo for combat with light armour and shield,, they 3R is too low and they will take too many wounds.

Chariots al least can hunt for enemy chariots, war machines, the small units of enemy shooters. And if there are enough chariots they might help out the TG unit with a combined flank or rear charge.

Enigmatik1
16-08-2010, 19:51
In the games I played yesterday I realized that a 25 strong tomb guard is still strong enough in 8.This particular TG unit had 2 kings and a IB in it. It broke through the enemy line killing a 5 chaos cavalry with general. Once it was on the other side its magic was enough for Ąt to maneuver aronund and defeat an30 barbarian horde ( twice) and a 15 strong unit of Khorne chaos warriors.

I also tried a unit 30 skeleton warriors with two kings and a IB in it and it took way too many wounds and was not able to win any combats.

I think that at 2.000 points a 25 TG unit is a must and the 500 points of basic should be filled up with chariots. Big units of skeleton infantry are just too weak, if they are archers their 3S is way to low and if their are suited uo for combat with light armour and shield,, they 3R is too low and they will take too many wounds.

Chariots al least can hunt for enemy chariots, war machines, the small units of enemy shooters. And if there are enough chariots they might help out the TG unit with a combined flank or rear charge.

I've noticed pretty much the same thing, although I will nearly always field a unit of 20-30 Skeleton Archers and keep them out of combat for as long as possible. That many potential shots is going to do some damage, even if theyr'e expensive and have **** poor stats otherwise. Skeleton Warriors are too expensive for a minimal return and require way too much in the way of expensive character resources to keep functional.

I, too, am a huge fan of Twin King lists. I generally give one of them the Dunce Cap, however, to add more oomph! to our magic phase. Who cares if the lore and spells are random. Nothing you get/roll will ever be a net negative imo. I especially love hexes, so I can give other armies "Skeletons!" :p

Tomb Guard are without a doubt the best unit in the book and never fail to earn their keep. I only wish I could field two units of 25 at 2,000 points. I've tried, it just ends up being prohibitively expensive alongside Twin Kings. :cries:

meneroth
16-08-2010, 20:16
settra doesnt really need look out sir. its still a bit risky to leave him out on his own but he's got a 4+ armour save that can't be negated and a 4+ ward. so he's about as good against cannonballs as poossible. trying to get him look out sir just creates a hugely akward chariot unit.

Ymir
17-08-2010, 03:02
Tomb Guard aren't that good. Grave Guard are exponentially better (4+ save, can have great weapons) and costs the same amount of points. Being stuck with only a 5+ save for Tomb Guards cost of 12 points is rather sucky, I've never actually seen Tomb Guard amount to anything, although that might be due to me using them veyr little in 7th edition because the special slot competition was so fierce. I will certainly give them more chances now that 8th edition made them better, so I might have spoken too soon, of course.

The Tomb Scorpion (or maybe the catapult) is the best unit in the book. The Casket of Souls is great also, and Ushabti might be brutal now with their S6 stomp attacks.

Anyhow, when I do get the opportunity to use my Tomb Guards, what banner would you recommend? I feel the Icon of Rakaph is not as great as it was in 7th, although still very good, and think the armor piercing banner or the Banner of the Undying Legion might also be great, for 8th editions grinding combats. What would you go with? (I only have enough Tomb Guards for one unit).

Marshal Augustine
17-08-2010, 03:42
I was running a TG unit... and then, after about 10 games, they got ditched for a unit of 6 ushabti... because the ushabti KILL stuff. THe skeletons can hold the line well, like they used to be able to, but in 8th you need things that can munch other things in combat, to win combat, and I find that the ushabti fulfill that role a lot better than the skeletons.

meneroth
17-08-2010, 04:08
but you put the ushabti and the TG together.....and your pretty much set. one unit holds the line, the other one kills the line.

TG are still really good though, granted they arn't grave guard but consider what army book your working with. plus with the attacks in the magic phase gives the unit an extra 10 attacks with a solid WS and S, not to mention killing blow. they can still kill stuff, but you cant really compare them to ushapti, they fufill a different role. TG bring ranks, standard, champion, ect while the ushapti just bring kills. They both are good, it just depends on what you want.

as for what banner to give them, the Icon of rakpha is still pretty darn useful, since we cant really ensure were gonna get our incantations off to charge into combat but i could see value in the undying legion banner (though i normally put it on a big block of normal skellies) or even the armour piercing banner, though with killing blow they dont need it quite so much.

Enigmatik1
17-08-2010, 04:58
Tomb Guard aren't that good. Grave Guard are exponentially better (4+ save, can have great weapons) and costs the same amount of points. Being stuck with only a 5+ save for Tomb Guards cost of 12 points is rather sucky, I've never actually seen Tomb Guard amount to anything, although that might be due to me using them veyr little in 7th edition because the special slot competition was so fierce. I will certainly give them more chances now that 8th edition made them better, so I might have spoken too soon, of course.

The Tomb Scorpion (or maybe the catapult) is the best unit in the book. The Casket of Souls is great also, and Ushabti might be brutal now with their S6 stomp attacks.

Anyhow, when I do get the opportunity to use my Tomb Guards, what banner would you recommend? I feel the Icon of Rakaph is not as great as it was in 7th, although still very good, and think the armor piercing banner or the Banner of the Undying Legion might also be great, for 8th editions grinding combats. What would you go with? (I only have enough Tomb Guards for one unit).

I should've clarified what I meant. I meant actual unit of more than one model. :p It's no secret that I hate Skeletons in any capacity other than shooting, Chariots have gotten the work over with the beat stick and the horsemen are still terribad. Tomb Guard are the best "unit" in the book by far in that regard, granted that isn't saying much. LOL! Scorpions are "it" in the book overall, no doubt. Until I can figure out how to make the Bone Giant work...hehe.

I agree that TG+Ushabti is about the best we can do currently and its sufficient against most decent lists with adequate magical support. If I had to ditch a unit, I'd be Skeletons without question. Such is my hatred for them! :D I'll take my chances with our gimp chariots. At least I'll have more fun with them.