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horror
30-05-2010, 22:54
So, Skaven in 8th ed. Obviously it's all guesswork right now but there's still much to consider....


Clanrats. Unit size? Spears or hand-weapons?

Are Assassins starting to look decent?

Does initiative 10 on the Vermin lord make him worth considering?

Is the Plague catapult looking like good value for money?

Are PCPs completely useless now?

What heroes are we likely to see used?

Are Storm Vermin going to be kicking ass, ripping up Chaos warriors and slaughtering Dragon Princes?!!

Will Slaves be breaking Dragon Ogres on the charge with +1 combat resolution?

Magic Karl
30-05-2010, 23:10
"Clan rats will be units of 30-40 with hand weapons" is the general concensus at the moment, but I don't know... one mortar shot could anhialate half a scaven army in theory, destroying one unit, panicing those around it? Who knows. I think they're still looking strong, this edition will be trying to give benifits to large infantry blocks and that's what skaven are designed for.

Idle Scholar
30-05-2010, 23:23
Clanrats, 30 strong with HW & S, though spears are perfectly viable vs T3 armies and deployed 5 * 6.

Slaves and large Giant Rat units the same as before. The 'Rat Pack' will have to upgrade to two Rat packs but that's still only 46 points for a M6 rank breaking drop.

Storm Vermin are probably going to be more attractive, but again only to taste as they'll still drop like flies to any decent unit.

Night Runners get a new potential role as a missile unit.

Rat Ogres get marginally better with the chance to restrain frenzy and the extra attack at the end of the phase. Their relatively high Int will help them out too.

PCB's get hit with the nurf bat, mostly because anything decent will attack before them and T4 is not a great save. Likewise Plague Priests suddenly look very vulnerable.

With the relaxation of the character slots the Assassin will get fielded more, but still comes with a high price tag.

Plague monks are still as situational as ever.

It's looking like our two greatest weapons; Static Combat Res and flank charges are both getting nurfed in favour of combat kills. But we've not had all the new rules yet so who knows.

enygma7
30-05-2010, 23:36
The assassin is expensive, but the other main problem with him is a lack of decent weapon options. Maybe there'll be something decent available to equip him with in the new and expanded common magic items list.

I think with no slot restrictions you are likely to see lots more chieftains and warlords fielded - keep the equipment costs down and their a very affordable buff to any infantry unit.

The increase in the importance of kills is a downside but if what I heard about having more ranks making you stubborn is true then a line of LD9 or 10 stubborn units with a battle standard isn't going anywhere for a bit giving your hard hitters, flanking units and toys time to work. I'm not worried about my skaven getting nerfed right now, quite the opposit, I'm hoping they don't become the new daemons!

Idle Scholar
31-05-2010, 00:37
I guess my concern is that the kills given away by a frontally engaged unit will overwhelm any attempt at a flank attack, but you're right in that it shouldn't be too hard to get that kind of tar pit style situation. In fact it's probably the intention of the designers.

Walls
31-05-2010, 01:08
Oddly enough, I think Skaven will be the best army in 8th, especially off the bat. Stubborn LD10 unless engaged on flanks, lots of bodies for hordes, shooting is more effective. Monsters and big guys are more effective. They really lose nothing except on regen'ing guys.

DigitalDogParty
31-05-2010, 03:27
I kinda thought Skaven were already pretty good in 7th, but 8th is looking decent. For Clanrats I'll probably run them in the hand weapon formation since the people I play against are pretty much heavy hitting infantry. I would only use spears against weaker or equivalent infantry armies. The Plagueclaw Catapult is looking real good right now as well since things like that can have a better chance to hit dead on. That is definitely going to kill my friend's Bretonnia...heh. Assassins look a little more useful now, but Dark Elf ones are still better. And now that you mention it, Plague Censer Bearers don't look real great right now. Can we say that Jezzail teams will pretty much be the same? Stormvermin can be kinda more useful, but in the general aspect they won't do that much more than before. You're just paying more for slightly better Clanrats, unfortunately.

CauCaSus
31-05-2010, 14:04
Oddly enough, I think Skaven will be the best army in 8th, especially off the bat. Stubborn LD10 unless engaged on flanks, lots of bodies for hordes, shooting is more effective. Monsters and big guys are more effective. They really lose nothing except on regen'ing guys.

Why? Because of cheap troops that makes it easier to become stubborn? Because less units ignore our ranks of we're flanked?

lordmetroid
31-05-2010, 22:41
Stubborn on Leadership 5 is really not all that good. Actually it is outright awful. Even though, I fear Skaven, the Warpfire Thrower will be very evil against the larger units that is rumored to become a reality on the battlefield.

Icarus
31-05-2010, 22:42
I've been thinking Clanrats in units of 40 with spears, as a 10-wide Horde. If we're going to have less CR and such, why not max out with a ton of attacks?

Such a unit is still only 220 points. Assuming it hits a 5-wide enemy unit, that's 7 rats in base-to-base contact. With Horde and Spears that is 21 attacks. Cast Death Frenzy on this unit and its 35 attacks (if I've understood everything right). I think that's pretty awesome.

Ok, its not going to beat up a super-elite unit, but neither is a regular-sized Clanrat unit. Against other basic core units I think this will do quite well, especially with slaves/giant rats etc hitting the flanks in support. Plus the whole theme of Skaven is a horde of rats, seems silly not to use the Horde rule.

lordmetroid
31-05-2010, 23:02
Nah, it is more than 220 points. You would want a weaponteam with that unit of clanrats so it is more like 300 points.

Falkman
31-05-2010, 23:19
Stubborn on Leadership 5 is really not all that good. Actually it is outright awful. Even though, I fear Skaven, the Warpfire Thrower will be very evil against the larger units that is rumored to become a reality on the battlefield.
Rumours have it that it's not proper Stubborn, you just don't apply negative modifiers to your break tests if you fight to the front and have more ranks than the enemy. So you'll be testing on LD10 pretty much all the time.

Barry "the blade"
01-06-2010, 09:47
I'm kinda bummed I spent time, and money on making a couple doomflayers. With an I of 3 they will be getting killed before they get to inflict any damage now. The 3+ save it gets will give it a chance sometimes, but not against anything that can hit hard.

EndlessBug
01-06-2010, 10:24
Nah, it is more than 220 points. You would want a weaponteam with that unit of clanrats so it is more like 300 points.

You might buy a grey seer for the magic phase, so it's really 600ish points...

the weaponteam, although is an upgrade works independantly of the unit. I don't think this point's very relevant.

The unit is still 220. And yea, pretty decent.

It'll be interesting to see the shift of power.

CauCaSus
01-06-2010, 12:35
Stubborn only stops you from using a character's Ld, not necessary any Ld bonuses from the unit itself (skaven have never had stubborn units so I guess we don't know?).

Why would the WFT be better? Our templates have always hit partial models


I'm kinda bummed I spent time, and money on making a couple doomflayers. With an I of 3 they will be getting killed before they get to inflict any damage now. The 3+ save it gets will give it a chance sometimes, but not against anything that can hit hard.

So impact hits are at I order as well now?

See, this is why its useless to discuss what we are going to do in 8th ed, its still totally up in the air depending on who you ask.

Idle Scholar
01-06-2010, 13:05
So the latest rumours state that it's probably only the models in B2B and those behind that get to attack, also horde might be a special rule that only some units will have.

Still, I've just run the numbers and 50 Skaven with spears at 10*5 facing 50 equivalent troops (say empire spearmen) both will cause about 7 kills a turn. However empire swordsmen will be returning the same amount of kills while saving one due to parry. However if we face something with T4 (and a 5+ armour save) we'll be doing 4.5 kills.

Talos
02-06-2010, 11:54
I love the doom wheel but with the rumour that it wont cancel out ranks do you think its still a good investment to have on your flanks ?

Memnos
02-06-2010, 12:02
With the changes to the edition, I predict Skaven will see the following:

1) fewer Ratling guns and more Plague Mortars.

- With bigger units of infantry, this is a no-brainer. You'll need massive amounts of kills and the template will be enough to get those massive amounts.

2) More Skaven Hamster balls - An artillery dice worth of hits will be important to evening out combat res. Unfortunately, LD5 Stubborn is not great. Sure, Skaven can afford to have bigger units, but their LD will not be worthwhile if they aren't winning combat.

3) More Vermin Lords - Stomp attack that grants d6 extra attacks, Initiative 10 and fast enough to hit the flanks where they won't be hit by multiple ranks, I see these Level 4 Wizards doing well. Unless the magic changes make you not want to invest so much in your own wizard.

4) Slaves will be very situational now - With far more infantry and longer charge ranges, I suspect LD2 stubborn will not be very desireable. Clanrats may be better.

Falkman
02-06-2010, 12:05
Stubborn only stops you from using a character's Ld, not necessary any Ld bonuses from the unit itself (skaven have never had stubborn units so I guess we don't know?).
Stubborn as it works in 7th ed means you always test on your unmodified Ld. Strength in numbers is a modification and thus would not work with Stubborn if the rules are the same in 8th.

Memnos
02-06-2010, 12:10
Stubborn as it works in 7th ed means you always test on your unmodified Ld. Strength in numbers is a modification and thus would not work with Stubborn if the rules are the same in 8th.

Yep. It might get errata'd, but as of right now the +3 leadership bonus wouldn't add.

punkoteloco
03-06-2010, 06:10
I think Doomflayers supporting big units will become a more common choice. Impact hits are still great. I dont think PCB will become useless, just used for another role. Screening units against cavalry are my first choice, you can make some damage too. Vermin lord will be a must against some armies. Tough, good initiative and with the added impact hits it becomes even greater. Well have to wait for the rules, although some are stated as true, some will change.

Barry "the blade"
03-06-2010, 06:24
But the Doomflayer only gets D3 S3 impact hits. After that its getting its attack at its iniative of 3. With a toughness of 3, and only 1 wound I don't see them living long enough to dish out their damage. Poisonwind mortars become a much much better chioce from what we are hearing of 8th ed so far.

Icarus
03-06-2010, 08:43
Actually the Doom-Flayer was FAQed to have S4 Impact hits, as per the strength of the machine. I agree its lost some of its clout, but effectively all that's happened is it's been downgraded from 'Awesome' to just 'Good'. Not much of a problem.

I will definitely be keeping them in my army, although I may admittedly be squeezing and extra poison mortar in.

Xynok
03-06-2010, 19:53
Yep. It might get errata'd, but as of right now the +3 leadership bonus wouldn't add.

It's in the errata about the plague censor bearers so the rank bonus wont be included in it.

Zoolander
04-06-2010, 00:11
Keep in mind a few things:

Flails are not great weapons so PCBs will strike at Initiative. Which means they aren't as good as before but they're still viable.

The latest rumor (I can hardly wait for the book to come out) states you can use the general's LD for stubborn. So large blocks of slaves are even better now. Stormvermin are actually better too with Initiative 4, they will go before many troops.

Druidic
04-06-2010, 14:37
Stubborn Leadership. To quote - Strength in numbers

"All units in the Skaven army add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership-based test. To calculate the Leadership of a unit with the Strength in Numbers rule, first determin the units leadership as normal and then add the rank bonus of the unit to this value, up to a maximum of 10"

My reading of this is that its not a bonus, its how you calculate the units leadership value, therefore Stubbourn Units of clan rats would use their full unmodified leadership which with 3 ranks is 8 not 5 as on their stat line. But I suppose its your definition of Bonus, its not for example an item giving you +1 LD, its a rule on calculating their LD.

Thoughts?

It may well be its been deliberatly written that it is no longer a "bonus" but a "Method of Calculation" to take the Stubbourn rule into account.... thoughts?

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 15:15
Hopefully it will be referred to explicitly in the rbrb stubborn rule, and also in the skaven faq. It seems a bit ambiguous for my liking at the moment.

Looking at the skaven units, I'd say stormvermin and clanrats are the big winners, which people have mentioned already.

With 2 ranks shooting, slings could become worth a look.

Rat Ogres also look very useful. A unit of 6 isn't prohibitively expensive.

Otoh, PCBs will lose a lot of models facing any army with higher I (which is a lot of them!). And the HPA will actually take hits in combat now, so any unit with flaming attacks will be a very scary proposition. Fair enough imo, that thing was op before.

mrtn
04-06-2010, 19:01
I think that the skaven armybook is priced for 8th edition. PCB's aren't undercosted, they're just priced for not striking first on the charge all the time.

The assassin should get a boost, with re-roll to hit against 99% of enemies (ASF, I8).

Rogzor87
05-06-2010, 20:16
Stormvermin are actually better too with Initiative 4, they will go before many troops.

Stormvermin are actually Initiative 5. So they will be faster then almost everything. I am looking forward to 8th edition with my Skaven. Though its Mostly Clan Pestilens I am working on getting some Stormvermin and Rat Ogres... Initiative 4 Big guys with that crush attack will be some fun.

Barry "the blade"
05-06-2010, 22:07
I'm looking forward to seeing if the slot restrictions are being lifted, and armies will in fact only by limited by the percentage system. That will open up a lot options to play with. Hell you could have FOUR cheap Warlord in a 2,000pt game if you wanted to. Poisenwind globadiers will be seen again now that they don't have to compete for those special slots.

horror
15-06-2010, 23:41
Stormvermin looking good for 8th. Seven points for WS4, I5, S4 and a 5+ save is not bad. We're probably going to be seeing blocks of 30+. Funny how a unit that seemed so underwhelming was just sitting in wait for 8th ed.

Assassins are starting to sound rather nice. They'll almost certainly be rerolling all their to hit rolls. Give them one or two of the items from the new rulebook and they should be good to go character hunting.

Not sure what Skaven have to deal with Bloodknights and the like though.

CauCaSus
16-06-2010, 09:37
Skaven characters in general got a boost because you aren't limited to 4 in a <3000 pt game.

I foresee a lot of naked warlocks sans death globe/brass orb/doomrocket and assassins w/weeping blade being skitterleaped around the table and then charge/throw deadly stuff at big targets and characters


VVVV Then how about skitterleaping a lvl 1 warlock close to the enemy, shoot the doomrocket/brass orb and then try to miscast by rolling tons of dice for warplightning. Stand next to an enemy unit and get a miscast result of large template S10 ;)

madden
16-06-2010, 10:42
Magic is leathal a ultimate force is ALSO a miscast and that table is full of str10/6 small and large templates so it's a gamble but that's skaven. Go the rats.

Barry "the blade"
16-06-2010, 10:49
I'm really hoping that monstous infantry finally getting some attention in the BRB will maybe make it safer to mount a warlord on a bonebreaker. If he can't be singled out with missle fire as easily would be nice. I can just picture 5 ROgres lead by a warlord mounted on a bonebreaker really tearing through some of the big infantry blocks everyone is talking about fielding in 8th. Give the warlord Portents of Vermenous Doom, and force the opponent to pass his fear checks at-1.

madden
16-06-2010, 11:39
There's a whole section on monsterous infantry didn't look what was in it( no time) but it's in the contents table.

BruderLoras
16-06-2010, 13:10
What could also be very nice is shelling out for slings on big slave blocks. 50 slaves with musician and sling are still only 127 pts, but they can dish out a lot of attacks in horde formation, and shoot 40 slingshots at short range as well!

2-3 of those units as vanguard... might be worth considering.

Cjwee
16-06-2010, 14:31
Well yesterday i played 2 500 pt games against vamps (lost), and warriors of chaos (won)all of us were fairly new players but i must say the miscast chart is horrifying, especially if you placed a warlock/plague priest in a regiment of clan rats acting as a mage bunker.

i also tried what bruder loras was suggesting (tho not with as many slaves i only had 20!) and it was actually fairly effective. picked off a few crypt ghouls and warriors here and there.

all in all 8th seems to be much more fun.

Deathjester
16-06-2010, 14:49
Rumours have it that it's not proper Stubborn, you just don't apply negative modifiers to your break tests if you fight to the front and have more ranks than the enemy. So you'll be testing on LD10 pretty much all the time.

Doesn't matter which side you're fighting on. So long as you have more ranks. As far as i could see in the book anyway.

Units in the flanks DISRUPT ranks, they don't break them, which means you can't add your rank bonus to your combat result....

So even if engaged in the flank you STILL HAVE your rank bonus.

Stubborn units with characters make the characters stubborn, stubborn characters make the units stubborn.

and yes the only difference between stubborn & steadfast is that stubborn units don't get negetive modifiers from combat regardless of ranks.

So: 30 clan rats 5x6 is in combat with a unit of 15: 5x3 swordsmen, and a detachment of 10 5x2 halbardeers

Clanrats lose 5 to combat and do 3 kills back in the swordsmen and 0 on the helbardeers.

You claim no rank bonus for combat:
But have Charged, 3 kills & a stick so 5
Empire have: 2 ranks, 5 kills, stick & a flank so 9

You lose by 4, but you're still testing on 5+3 ranks = Ld 8 stubborn as you have more ranks. And if you've got a warlord in the unit then you're on 10.

In current rules you'd be:
But have Outnumber, 3 kills & a stick so 5
Empire have: 2 ranks, 5 kills, stick & a flank so 9
Losing by 4
Ld 5 - 4 = 1 So double 1's....

Idle Scholar
16-06-2010, 16:05
Well, once they errata the new steadfast to use SiN

Icarus
18-06-2010, 23:11
I'm really hoping that monstous infantry finally getting some attention in the BRB will maybe make it safer to mount a warlord on a bonebreaker. If he can't be singled out with missle fire as easily would be nice. I can just picture 5 ROgres lead by a warlord mounted on a bonebreaker really tearing through some of the big infantry blocks everyone is talking about fielding in 8th. Give the warlord Portents of Vermenous Doom, and force the opponent to pass his fear checks at-1.

On a sidenote monstrous mounts now merge their profiles with the rider. Apparently it's riders toughness (bad as you'll downgrade from the Bonebreaker's 5 to the Warlord's 4) but the mount's wounds (good, you have one more wound). Don't really know if this will make bonebreaker mounts better or worse options. I *think* that they should technically be more survivable now, as there's no singling out the rider for attacks.

Seth the Dark
18-06-2010, 23:17
On a sidenote monstrous mounts now merge their profiles with the rider. Apparently it's riders toughness (bad as you'll downgrade from the Bonebreaker's 5 to the Warlord's 4) but the mount's wounds (good, you have one more wound). Don't really know if this will make bonebreaker mounts better or worse options. I *think* that they should technically be more survivable now, as there's no singling out the rider for attacks.

So HE dragons will be T3?

Skyros
18-06-2010, 23:21
They'll use the rider's armor save and it sounds like the rider still gets +1 AS for being mounted.

Stormvermin are looking like an absolutely excellent troop choice in 8th ed.

horror
18-06-2010, 23:22
So HE dragons will be T3?

That's funny!

Icarus
19-06-2010, 11:22
So HE dragons will be T3?

From the Warseer 8th ed rumour thread: "Monstrous mounts (such as Giant eagles, Juggernauts, Pegasi, Unicorns and so on, but not large monsters like Dragons and Griffons) "merge" their profile with the rider."

So Dragons get to stay cool. We on the other hand don't become tougher for riding a giant rat ogre. But as I said, perhaps we will be more survivable without being able to be singled out.

The Crippler
19-06-2010, 18:36
Ok, so, with the changes to the skirmish rules, will any of you being fielding skirmishers at all? I have trouble seeing censer bearers being effective for the amount of my battle line that they'll be taking up. I can't see taking gutter runners at all. Too expensive.

CauCaSus
19-06-2010, 18:53
Gutter runners are stille useful for taking out warmachines, which there probably will be even more of now with the special slots all gone. Or a smallish unit with an assassin w/a magic weapons and moke bombs. March them infront of enemy units to recieve the charge and take out enemy characters.

shade3413
19-06-2010, 20:54
I'm considering the merits of the following plan:

My plan:

Step 1: Warlord
Step 2: Wizards Hat
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: lulz!

Skaven and Orcs n Gobbos appear to have cheapest lords around, a fact that could make the wizards hat and access to the new lores worthwhile!

Seth the Dark
19-06-2010, 21:46
I'm considering the merits of the following plan:

My plan:

Step 1: Warlord
Step 2: Wizards Hat
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: lulz!

Skaven and Orcs n Gobbos appear to have cheapest lords around, a fact that could make the wizards hat and access to the new lores worthwhile!

Don't forget Empire! Well as magic is a bit riskier, I would venture to say that risking your Lord might be a bit of a gamble.

shade3413
19-06-2010, 22:00
Don't forget Empire! Well as magic is a bit riskier, I would venture to say that risking your Lord might be a bit of a gamble.

Remember you aren't limited to one lord anymore and this lord is 145 pts, in a 2k list that leaves 355 points in the lords section.

The main reason I suggest it for skaven and even gobbos is the fact that the empire already has access to these lores whilst skaven do not.

Seth the Dark
20-06-2010, 00:35
Ah I see. (Stupid word limit)

Icarus
20-06-2010, 13:19
Ok, so, with the changes to the skirmish rules, will any of you being fielding skirmishers at all? I have trouble seeing censer bearers being effective for the amount of my battle line that they'll be taking up. I can't see taking gutter runners at all. Too expensive.

PCBs will still have a use, but they won't be the super-hard hitters that we're used to. I may take a small unit of 5 as a bodyguard for my Plague Priest for games when there's not enough points to take a plague furnace (which is most games for me as I usually invest in a screaming bell). With gas attacks and the Priest hitting at I5 such a unit would still be good for hitting the enemy in the flank whilst some clanrats charge in the front.

Start thinking of PCBs and Gutter Runners as small hunting / bodyguard units rather than dominating units that can work on their own.

Kerill
20-06-2010, 14:43
I hope for balance sake that strength in numbers doesn't add on for the stubborn total. Bear in mind though if you put your general in stormvermin with the +1Ld banner then you will be testing on re-rollable 8 stubborn which is still very good without being silly.

Sacred standard of the horned rat looks really powerful this edition as well.

BruderLoras
20-06-2010, 15:02
I like the Warlord/Wizards Hat idea. Give him a shield and a warlitter, and you have a stupid lvl 2 wizard with a random BRB lore, with a 3+ AS and 8S4 attacks. For about 230 points. Sounds nice and whacky. And would scream for a nice conversion of a warlord with a pointy hat.

EDIT: some other things that come to mind: Assassin with one of the potions, either a potion of strength or the (if this was the correct translation) killing blow potion. Either one could, taking into account his high numer of ASF attacks, make the assassin quite well suited to the character-killing role.

The Crippler
20-06-2010, 15:55
PCBs will still have a use, but they won't be the super-hard hitters that we're used to. I may take a small unit of 5 as a bodyguard for my Plague Priest for games when there's not enough points to take a plague furnace (which is most games for me as I usually invest in a screaming bell). With gas attacks and the Priest hitting at I5 such a unit would still be good for hitting the enemy in the flank whilst some clanrats charge in the front.

Start thinking of PCBs and Gutter Runners as small hunting / bodyguard units rather than dominating units that can work on their own.

I think I understand the idea, but, it's the practical application that troubles me. I always my PCBs and GRs in thin little clumps that ran beside my units. Now I'm going to have deploy them 5 wide, in a movement tray, AND they can't approach within 1 inch of a unit on either side. That means a serious chunk of your battle line is going to get used up if you drop down a skirmish unit. For Skaven, that's not a good thing, especially since those units don't have the survivability of a fully ranked unit.

Also, I really don't see why I'd want to hit a flank on an enemy unit with a unit that can't break ranks. I'd much rather hit with slaves, who take up the same amount of frontage, but cost half or less points.

I think I'm going to have to play some 8th edition games before deciding on the usefulness of skirmishers.

decker_cky
20-06-2010, 17:25
Gutter runners shouldn't be an issue. With scout, they can deploy anywhere at least 12" from enemy lines, then they function as an amazing harassment unit.

PCB aren't for running into ranked units unsupported, but with support, you should have the ranks to remove steadfast and PCBs provide kills to win. Sounds like a well balanced unit to me (whereas before they were a ridiculous deal for a short time). :)

BajsArne
20-06-2010, 21:54
Does anyone else feel that our magic is a little weak now? I've only glanced through the lores but it seems they are way more powerful.

Icarus
20-06-2010, 22:04
Both our lores are still pretty good, we have a fair share of cool nukes, buffs and hexes, plus we were the original ones with a mega-spell. Ok some of the new lores may have some quite powerful stuff going on, but we still have winners like Scorch and Plague.

Gekiganger
20-06-2010, 22:19
I'm considering the merits of the following plan:

My plan:

Step 1: Warlord
Step 2: Wizards Hat
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: lulz!

Skaven and Orcs n Gobbos appear to have cheapest lords around, a fact that could make the wizards hat and access to the new lores worthwhile!

Consider that idea stolen. When browsing the list of items and I saw that I thought it was a fun item, but never considered using it as I like my lords fighty. I think I'll reconsider that just for the conversion possibilities of a rat in a hat.


Does anyone else feel that our magic is a little weak now? I've only glanced through the lores but it seems they are way more powerful.


Both our lores are still pretty good, we have a fair share of cool nukes, buffs and hexes, plus we were the original ones with a mega-spell. Ok some of the new lores may have some quite powerful stuff going on, but we still have winners like Scorch and Plague.

Weaker, not weak. As mentioned, scorch and plague are awesome. Skitterleap and cracks call are also on my list of faves. Not having a lore 'bonus' like the other ones seem to annoys me, as they sound fun. I'd have been happy if they still allowed Ikit to have free reign over lores, it was one of my fave points about him - he wasn't just an engineer, he'd travelled and learned, that's been completely phased out now rulewise.

Blair
21-06-2010, 01:53
I haven't been keeping track of the 8th Edition rumors, but with regards to fears of other races being given lore of spells bonuses/advantages, the Skaven could benefit from an Errata.

Stumpy
21-06-2010, 02:12
So... what you guys have been discussing (if we take all of the beneficial changes you mention at the same time) is that you'll get SiN even when your flanks are disrupted, you can use general's Ld and SiN for steadfast. If this is indeed how it works, consider Warhammer a game of the past. Skavenhammer!
Put a seer on a bell, have units of 30 slaves everywhere that are stubborn on Ld10 no matter what :(
Of course I fully expect that's wrong, no way is GW that stupid ;)

Skyros
21-06-2010, 15:03
It's possibly they'll FAQ/Errata SiN to not work if you are flanked...or they could just say you can't use your siN leadership for steadfast tests, but can use the generals.

Cjwee
21-06-2010, 18:00
how many clan rats do you guys think should be in a regiment now? I've been running 30 in small point games (500ish) and they seem to be alright. Do you guys think that we've gotta increase the size once it hits bigger points values?

Blair
21-06-2010, 18:07
From my very limited knowledge of 8th it looks to be somewhere between 30-50 depending on front rank width.

shortlegs
21-06-2010, 18:07
I dread facing a skaven army in 8th.

I've never seen a non-deathstar unit stand up to the furnace+PM unit, and it will still be as effective as ever in 8th ed. Now skaven has another power unit in the form of a 50-strong unit of horde stormvermin and a cheap 15pt engineer with skavenbrew. Run them together, maybe throw in 2 aboms if you're really feeling evil, and I think many armies simply have no answer for them.

Too bad I don't play rats..

Gekiganger
21-06-2010, 19:51
I dread facing a skaven army in 8th.

I've never seen a non-deathstar unit stand up to the furnace+PM unit, and it will still be as effective as ever in 8th ed. Now skaven has another power unit in the form of a 50-strong unit of horde stormvermin and a cheap 15pt engineer with skavenbrew. Run them together, maybe throw in 2 aboms if you're really feeling evil, and I think many armies simply have no answer for them.

Too bad I don't play rats..

I'd have an answer for it. Stop playing such a poor opponent. If I saw a list like that anywhere outside of a tournament (where you expect the worst) then the opponent wouldn't be getting any games off me again. On a tourney scene abominations are not quite as strong as they used to be with the loss of charge auto-striking first and the abundance of ways to generate flaming attacks / upgrade to the magic lores. Template weapons are also quite nasty against large blocks now guessing is gone.

decker_cky
21-06-2010, 20:26
I think the 10 rank unit of slaves is going to be huge now. High leadership and deep ranks for cheap = win. :D

shortlegs
22-06-2010, 02:47
I'd have an answer for it. Stop playing such a poor opponent. If I saw a list like that anywhere outside of a tournament (where you expect the worst) then the opponent wouldn't be getting any games off me again. On a tourney scene abominations are not quite as strong as they used to be with the loss of charge auto-striking first and the abundance of ways to generate flaming attacks / upgrade to the magic lores. Template weapons are also quite nasty against large blocks now guessing is gone.
Most players in my area are of the min-maxed variety. Something like the above skaven army wouldn't be far-fetched at all.

But the very fact that you CAN make such a strong list(s) from skaven shows just how powerful they are. Coupled with multiple template batteries and cheap exploding slaves, the skaven book is choked full of not just good, but VERY GOOD choices. I could easily see them catapulting to tier 1, perhaps even above DE.

Blair
22-06-2010, 03:56
I haven't even finished assembling the Skaven Box Set I picked up, let alone played a game of Fantasy but already the whining coming from some of the people on this thread is making me wonder why I abandoned 40K for Fantasy. Fantasy appealed to me because of the strong tactical element and yet there are some contributers to this thread crying about a certain units in the Skven army being too cheesy/powerful/broken and that they wouldn't play an opponent with them in the army.

Whatever happened to enjoying the challenge of a tough match instead of just resigning yourself to a lose when you see a HPA or similar? Do these players that complain about these "broken" units not play against High Elves or Daemons of Chaos because those armies are considered top tier are generally hard to beat and/or easier to win with?

Power gamers are a facet that some people do not like about the hobby, but I would never decline an offer to play someone for the first, even if they were considered a power gamer. It's not just the opponents army that makes a game enjoyable, it's also how the opponent conducts himself. Which in turn is applied to you as his opponent. Would you want to get a reputation as someone that only plays games on your own terms? I call those people brats.

Rogzor87
22-06-2010, 05:05
I am currently trying to decide an army list for m skaven in 8th. Currently I am fairly certain I will be taking Rat Ogres and Stormvermin. They will just be amazing in 8th. Plaguemonks will most definatly always be brought with me as well(Clan Pestilens is my favorite clan).

I feel large Horde units of everything(slaves/Stormvermin/Clan Rats/Plague Monks/Nightrunner) will be seen everywhere with skaven. Possibly even Giant rat packs of 2-3 ranks(if they errata the 3rd rank of rats can attack). Poisoned Wind Mortors and plagueclaw catapults will most likely be more common because of no guess range and the templates!

Like everyone else i do expect to see several Warplock Engineers going boom everywhere with skitterleap.

This is just some of my opinions and belief.

mrtn
22-06-2010, 12:39
Fantasy appealed to me because of the strong tactical element and yet there are some contributers to this thread crying about a certain units in the Skven army being too cheesy/powerful/broken and that they wouldn't play an opponent with them in the army.

If you have issues with whining on the internet about Fantasy, may I suggest that you don't give up Fantasy, but rather give up the internet? :p ;)

Blair
22-06-2010, 12:51
If you have issues with whining on the internet about Fantasy, may I suggest that you don't give up Fantasy, but rather give up the internet? :p ;)

No, I like whining about whining.

I also hate irony.

I think I'll be making a Skyre themed army. I love the idea of twin Doomwheels!

shortlegs
22-06-2010, 15:23
Wow.. Whining about whining..

I love irony.. :rolleyes:

Sygerrik
22-06-2010, 22:26
Rat Ogres are getting the biggest bump. I'm considering running two Bonebreaker lords, each in a 5-man unit of Ogres (plus PMs, obviously); that's a Ld 8 check to restrain frenzy and an ungodly # of attacks at remarkably high I.

Rogzor87
23-06-2010, 03:23
I am curious if people will take huge hordes of Slaves. I know I plan on it. Even though they don't have the killing power as the MoK Mauraders everyone is QQing or whatever about. They have the ability to stall anything forever while still throwing out kills. Not to mention you can shoot into that combat without care to add more kills to the opponent.

Icarus
23-06-2010, 09:24
I'm personally thinking more of going with hordes of Clanrats, using smaller slave units as missile screens and roadblocks. However I agree that a horde unit of slaves would probably work well as a serious tarpit unit.

ScytheSwathe
23-06-2010, 10:04
Im likely to bump clanrats up to 40 in a 5x8 formation. (Im not feeling the horde rule). And probably keep to 20 slaves for nuisance purposes

SevenSins
23-06-2010, 12:04
Large slave units should be good. With quasi-stubborn on good leadership combined with life is cheap, warpfire and slaves seems like a combo made in heaven :)

What are peoples thoughts on jezzails and globadiers in 8th?

I look forward to rat ogres probably becoming usefull, as well as the bonebreaker.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-06-2010, 13:46
Units in the flanks DISRUPT ranks, they don't break them, which means you can't add your rank bonus to your combat result....

So even if engaged in the flank you STILL HAVE your rank bonus.


Not sure what you mean with "disrupt" but when you are flanked by anyone with two ranks himself, you will lose the rank bonus, and if that happens, you lose the leadership bonus. It's spelled out very very clearly. What am I missing?



So: 30 clan rats 5x6 is in combat with a unit of 15: 5x3 swordsmen, and a detachment of 10 5x2 halbardeers

Clanrats lose 5 to combat and do 3 kills back in the swordsmen and 0 on the helbardeers.


I realize it is just an example but those numbers and conclusions are off. 10 attacks against the Swordsmen kill 2.3, 4 attacks against the detachment kill 1.8 for a total of 4 kills. Swordsmen kill 1.7, 8 remaining Halberdiers kill 2.2. You haven't lost a rank, the detachment doesn't negate ranks.

Skaven: 4 kills + 1 charge + 3 ranks = 8
Empire: 4 kills + 1 charge + 1 flank + 1 rank (they started with only 2 and have lost one) = 7 - they lose.



You lose by 4, but you're still testing on 5+3 ranks = Ld 8 stubborn as you have more ranks.


If the detachment can retain it's own rank, you lose your rank bonus and therefore you lose your leadership bonus.

Galatan
23-06-2010, 14:56
What are peoples thoughts on jezzails and globadiers in 8th?
I think jezzails will still be good use. With TLOS could give you a bit more freedom in placing them, IF you only want to use them against the big stuff. Otherwise I think they will remain the same.

With the new skirmishers rule I still have to see how PCB and globadiers will work out, but I think PCB will be more support (as they always were intended to be) and globadiers will remain the same (pretty useful in my eyes).

Thanks to the new percentage system I think I'll take lots of small special units (and of course a decent sized plague monk unit). One major shift for me is taking multiple gutter runner units. I think arti will become more prevalent now the slots are gone (I calculated an empire army with 2 mortars and 2 cannons and still plenty of infantry), so I think you really want take some more arti hunters. Something in which I think gutter runners ideal at.

So...2-4 gutter runner units of 6 with slings? Small, cheap, cheerfull and good enough to kill arti.

Areku
23-06-2010, 19:45
Horrible strategy, but might be a fun idea:

Take a warlord general and get a cheap gray seer then load up on warlocks but make sure they can cast a spell.

Skitterleap them behind enemy lines (near war machines if they have them, scouts, weak targets, etc. Just follow the 1" rules) and then toss a ton of dice at warp lightning at a random unit. If you get really lucky you'll get Loss of Control and roll a 2-6 and possibly take out some war machine crew and whatever else the spell happens to kill is a bonus!

Like I said, not a good strategy, but still, imagine the fun of a lightning flinging warlock that explodes with either a large S10 template or a small S10 template (and if for some reason he survives and gets killed that's what, 50 points?)

Skyros
23-06-2010, 22:14
I haven't even finished assembling the Skaven Box Set I picked up, let alone played a game of Fantasy but already the whining coming from some of the people on this thread is making me wonder why I abandoned 40K for Fantasy. Fantasy appealed to me because of the strong tactical element and yet there are some contributers to this thread crying about a certain units in the Skven army being too cheesy/powerful/broken and that they wouldn't play an opponent with them in the army.

I see literally ONE poster in FOUR pages.

I suggest you develop a thicker skin.

Your paragraphs long thundering denunciation comes off as far more whiny than the original statement, by the way.

There will be people who think certain combos are overpowered. Learning how to deal with that is part of playing the game.

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 22:45
In a 2000 point army, you can run two Warlords on Bonebreakers with 95 points of gear each. There are some amazing weapons to give a Warlord, too, like the +3S sword or the WS10 paired swords. You throw these guys in Ogre blocks and good god, they're ruinous.

BajsArne
23-06-2010, 22:52
What's this new craze about warlords on bonebreakers in ratogre units? Can't the warlord be singled out anymore?

Sygerrik
24-06-2010, 00:50
What's this new craze about warlords on bonebreakers in ratogre units? Can't the warlord be singled out anymore?

Because Rat Ogres got a whole hell of a lot better due to the changes to Fear, the ability to restrain from charging (which works a lot better if there's a high-Ld character in the unit), Stomp attacks, and the ability to get a rank bonus from three-wide and attack in two ranks with up to 3 attacks each.

Rat Ogres are a lot better, and Bonebreakers are also better for many of the same reasons, and you can have lots of Warlords (they're cheapo and you are no longer slot restricted), and there are lots of great combat magic items in the BRB. It's overall a good environment for this type of thing.

Rogzor87
24-06-2010, 01:14
But can't the Warlord be targetted being on a Bonebreaker? since he is US 5?

mrtn
24-06-2010, 01:59
Unit Strength is gone as a concept, whether someone can be singled out or not depends on other factors (of which I'm unsure).

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 03:32
I see literally ONE poster in FOUR pages.

I suggest you develop a thicker skin.

Your paragraphs long thundering denunciation comes off as far more whiny than the original statement, by the way.

There will be people who think certain combos are overpowered. Learning how to deal with that is part of playing the game.
Well said.

Back to rat ogres, I'm having mixed feelings on 40mm monsters in general. True they get their stomp attacks, and they also get their step-up rule, but I'm not sure if they are that much better now, especially when compared to the boost infantry received. Most of such monsters were good in 7th ed due to their long charge range and the potential ability to wipeout the front rank of their enemy. Now with enemy step up, low I (or wield GW) and next to no armor, they will probably die faster, although they will kill more before they hit the bucket...

A unit of say 6 40mm big guys against an infantry block of similar cost, who will get ground down faster? Interesting.. let me go crunch some numbers..

Gekiganger
24-06-2010, 05:50
A unit of say 6 40mm big guys against an infantry block of similar cost, who will get ground down faster? Interesting.. let me go crunch some numbers..

I'd heart promising things in relation to ogres, so there's certainly hope.

I think the problem will be surviving shooting to reach CC. Once there they'll have a fighting chance without a warlord, never mind with.

Rogzor87
24-06-2010, 06:27
Its not just the stomp attack, its also that they are Initiative 4. which means they will get to strike before most infantry.

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 08:10
Another thing, sorry if I missed any discussion on this, but how will steadfast work with SiN?

a. base ld (eg stubborn 5), or general's ld if within 12" (eg stubborn 7)
b. base ld + SiN (eg stubborn 5+3), or general's ld if within 12" (eg stubborn 7)
c. base ld + SiN (eg stubborn 5+3), or general's ld + SiN if within 12" (eg stubborn 7 + 3)

Think it all boils down to the exact wording of the SiN and stubborn/steadfast rules. Anyone has access to the new rulebook to see which of the above interpretation seems most reasonable, until we get an errata clarifying things up?

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2010, 09:18
Another thing, sorry if I missed any discussion on this, but how will steadfast work with SiN?


The SiN rule is spelled out surprisingly clearly and unambiguously for a GW publication. That's your final leadership value that you use for Ld tests regardless of whether you are steadfast or not. This new rule does not change the way Skaven compute their Ld value, which is what you ask. Unless this is completely changed in an FAQ, I don't see any confusion.

By the way, people did in fact discuss this just a single page back.

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 11:06
While there were like 3 posts talking about SiN and steadfast, I don't think any conclusions were reached.

While SiN is clearly worded, what about steadfast/stubborn? Not having seen the wording in person is the reason I'm asking it here. Does it says "use the general's unmodified ld" or something else which may prove ambiguous and debatable whether you add SiN's bonus to the stubborn roll?

Just like how the errata for PCBs state that they test stubborn on ld 5 when within 6" of a PM unit, as stubborn troops use the Ld on their profile for break tests. So how much has the wording for stubborn changed in 8th ed is what I'm curious about, as that will affect its interaction, if any, with SiN.

mrtn
24-06-2010, 11:09
Just wait for the erratas that will accompany the rulebook release.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2010, 14:56
While SiN is clearly worded, what about steadfast/stubborn? Not having seen the wording in person is the reason I'm asking it here. Does it says "use the general's unmodified ld" or something else which may prove ambiguous and debatable whether you add SiN's bonus to the stubborn roll?

Ah, I see. While I don't know the exact wording of the steadfast rule, SiN allows you to modify your Ld value with the number of ranks. If another rule tells you to use your unmodified Ld value, that leaves little room for debate.

matticusmaximus
24-06-2010, 21:53
what's everyone's thoughts on clanrats? Units of 35-40? Shields, spears, naked?

Right now I'm thinking either 35 with shields or 40 naked, with points left over for more bodies or weapon teams

shortlegs
25-06-2010, 05:24
I'm starting to feel that regular clanrats are being out-shone in 8th. slaves are cheaper and may prove to be just as effective in tarpitting, while stormvermin got lots better. I'm tempted to keep an average-sized unit of clanrats just to keep my grey seer and bsb safe behind the lines, and let others do the fighting.

With the importance of the general and bsb in 8th, I'm definitely not going to expose them to combat if at all possible. A clanrat block of say 30 rats behind the main line (perhaps right smack behind an unbreakable PM+furnace unit?) is the best bunker option they have IMO.

Mr_Foulscumm
25-06-2010, 14:50
Now with enemy step up, low I (or wield GW) and next to no armor, they will probably die faster, although they will kill more before they hit the bucket...

A unit of say 6 40mm big guys against an infantry block of similar cost, who will get ground down faster? Interesting.. let me go crunch some numbers..

Wait, are you saying that Rat Ogres have low I? Its better than most regular units. And having 6 ROs attacking will make a mess out of a lot of units.

Vs regular infantry my money would be on the Rats in almost every case.

shortlegs
25-06-2010, 15:12
Wait, are you saying that Rat Ogres have low I? Its better than most regular units. And having 6 ROs attacking will make a mess out of a lot of units.

Vs regular infantry my money would be on the Rats in almost every case.

I was talking about 40mm monsters in general, not rat ogres specifically.

While having higher initiative allows the ROs to attack before they suffer casualties, it doesn't actually stop returning attacks (unless we're talking about depleted units here, not relatively fresh ones). So they take wounds just as easily as other 40mm monsters.

Although that I do not deny that they have several important advantages over say ogres. I4, Str 5 (rather than a lowish base str4 or an overkill str6 with GW), and frenzy puts them in much better stead.

Mr_Foulscumm
25-06-2010, 15:43
I was talking about 40mm monsters in general, not rat ogres specifically.

While having higher initiative allows the ROs to attack before they suffer casualties, it doesn't actually stop returning attacks (unless we're talking about depleted units here, not relatively fresh ones). So they take wounds just as easily as other 40mm monsters.

Although that I do not deny that they have several important advantages over say ogres. I4, Str 5 (rather than a lowish base str4 or an overkill str6 with GW), and frenzy puts them in much better stead.

Ah ok, my bad. Thought we were talking ROs. :)

jamesterjlrb
27-06-2010, 22:12
Just for all the whiners i'm now thinking of taking a bell with stormvermin and 2 furnaces in 2500-3000pt games. :D

Norseman
28-06-2010, 05:23
I was just looking at the Bone breaker and it says it follows all the rules for monstrous mounts. I think it gets Thunder Stomp. That's huge for 65 points.

What size base do you think it should have? I'm thinking bigger than 40, because the description makes the point of it being larger than a normal rat ogre. I'm guessing 60mm or 40x60

Sygerrik
28-06-2010, 06:41
I was just looking at the Bone breaker and it says it follows all the rules for monstrous mounts. I think it gets Thunder Stomp. That's huge for 65 points.

What size base do you think it should have? I'm thinking bigger than 40, because the description makes the point of it being larger than a normal rat ogre. I'm guessing 60mm or 40x60

It's a Monstrous Beast. It gets regular stomp, not Thunderstomp.



I'm starting to feel that regular clanrats are being out-shone in 8th. slaves are cheaper and may prove to be just as effective in tarpitting, while stormvermin got lots better.


I am going to be bringing lots and lots and lots and lots of units of 25-30 slaves with slings, deployed 10 wide, to pepper the enemy with stones.

Blair
28-06-2010, 07:35
I was just looking at the Bone breaker and it says it follows all the rules for monstrous mounts. I think it gets Thunder Stomp. That's huge for 65 points.

What size base do you think it should have? I'm thinking bigger than 40, because the description makes the point of it being larger than a normal rat ogre. I'm guessing 60mm or 40x60

I'd think a 40x40 base would be fine. It is tougher (wounds and toughness) and has more attacks than a normal Rat Ogre and/or a Master-bred Rat Ogre but has less initiative. And considering it can only join Clanrats, Stormvermin or Rat Ogres I'd say having a non-square base (i.e. 40x60) would just be illogical for determining rank bonus etc.

What I don't understand is why give the Bone-breaker a BS of 3?

fubukii
29-06-2010, 01:26
I think WFT/WLC and slaves will be insane with all these huge blocks appearing in 8th edition. Especially if the slaves can be Stubborn ld 10.

Lock them up, then UNLOAD WITH Template DOOM

Badger[Fr]
30-06-2010, 13:08
What is my fellow Skaven players opinion on our Infantry? I feel we are being outshone by cheaper, more efficient units, such as Chaos Marauders or Orc Boyz.

Killswitch<>
30-06-2010, 13:13
Storm vermin with halberds? Certainly seem like one of the new best choices! 7pts per model, benefit from the extra LD per rank, and work well in horde dploymenty, along with beign cheap, hi I and good str!

Malorian
30-06-2010, 13:55
;4777150']What is my fellow Skaven players opinion on our Infantry? I feel we are being outshone by cheaper, more efficient units, such as Chaos Marauders or Orc Boyz.

Chaos marauders with great weapons are crazy and people should stop comparing their own hordes to this one unit.

Olyphant
30-06-2010, 14:29
Tbh I don't think hordes are the way to go... work on ranks.... facing a horde of gw marauders stay back with 3 wft's, 3 pcc's, 3 globadier units with death globe's, 2 warlocks with doomrocket and further death globe. When the remains reach you they still have ASL so pound em with some Stormvermin/RO's

Mullitron
01-07-2010, 10:44
Ive noticed not many posts in this thread seem to be taking advantage of the horde rule. The only posts that seem to mention taking a unit 10 wide are refering to their slaves, will people not be taking big units like 35 stormvermin and a bell for a 10 wide unit 5 ranks deep? Is it just better to give skaven units lot of ranks?

Lord Solar Plexus
01-07-2010, 12:14
I think WFT/WLC and slaves will be insane with all these huge blocks appearing in 8th edition. Especially if the slaves can be Stubborn ld 10.

As pointed out before, I really don't see how they could reach steadfast Ld 10 though.

mrtn
01-07-2010, 12:21
As pointed out before, I really don't see how they could reach steadfast Ld 10 though.

Ld 7 from the general plus 3 ranks.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-07-2010, 12:27
You can only use your unmodified Ld - or in this case the general's - in conjunction with steadfast.

Badger[Fr]
01-07-2010, 13:39
You can only use your unmodified Ld - or in this case the general's - in conjunction with steadfast.
I wish the FAQ will fix this. Considering how Skavens were the first army to get a special leadership rule based on ranks, it would be a shame if they couldn't benefit from steadfast.

Killswitch<>
01-07-2010, 13:41
There is a huge rules dicusion in the rules section, please dont bring it here. For now, Since we can safely say the skaven book was certainly created close to when they developed the first stages of the fantasy book, SiK will most likely work with steadfast. Just wait for the errata, which will almost definately back my claim up.

UberHopper
01-07-2010, 15:47
I havn't heard too much on the side of Night Runners and Gutter Runners. Are these units sub-par or simply under-utilized?

PurchasedPig
01-07-2010, 15:59
I was actually just considering Night Runners myself. Although I don't currently collect Skaven I'm possibly about to get a good deal on a small starting force and was considering ways of expansion.

I think Night Runners with the Tunneling device could be really useful in the latest edition of the rules with the buffs to infantry. I haven't quite thought the whole thing out yet but I believe that with the increase in things like artillery and missile units these would be good for defence.

Gutter Runners are a must now for me. Small units with absolutely minimal upgrades no longer take up Special choices and have the Scout deployment rule which is awesome now.

Another consideration for me was Giant Rats (assuming the FAQ lets them still fight with an additional rank) for being very cheap flank'n'rank units. Skaven also now allow for the ultimate template spam with Plague Mortars and Plagueclaw Catapults firing into steadfast Slave units along with Warpfire Throwers. A lot of fun possibilities with Skaven, as always.

-PurchasedPig-

thrawn
01-07-2010, 16:16
There is a huge rules dicusion in the rules section, please dont bring it here. For now, Since we can safely say the skaven book was certainly created close to when they developed the first stages of the fantasy book, SiK will most likely work with steadfast. Just wait for the errata, which will almost definately back my claim up.

Wow! Confident?:cool:

Anywho, if it does work that way, then throw an army standard in and you have a unit of 60 slaves with spears (156 points) will have 40 attacks, and will basically be steadfast with LD 10 (if general is in 12") and re-roll break tests? three units of these will cost you 468 points, that's 10x6, 40 attacks, stead fast LD 10, re-roll break tests. that sounds too good . . . :shifty:

i'm not complaining, but if that's the case i'm starting a Skaven army!;)

Memnos
01-07-2010, 16:35
Wow! Confident?:cool:

Anywho, if it does work that way, then throw an army standard in and you have a unit of 60 slaves with spears (156 points) will have 40 attacks, and will basically be steadfast with LD 10 (if general is in 12") and re-roll break tests? three units of these will cost you 468 points, that's 10x6, 40 attacks, stead fast LD 10, re-roll break tests. that sounds too good . . . :shifty:

i'm not complaining, but if that's the case i'm starting a Skaven army!;)

With WS 2, it's going to be easy to lose whole hordes of them depending on the unit. Losing 30 Slaves will happen quite easily.

fubukii
01-07-2010, 16:35
you would only get that many attacks vs a unit with a 160mm frontage or wider though.

vs a average unit you get, 28 attacks assuming horde and spears. In addition with horde its easier to negate ranks, kill 6 guys out of a 40 man unit and suddenly they only have 2 ranks minus the first. not hard to negate that stubborn. a 50 man unit would be a bit tougher

Chaos Undecided
01-07-2010, 18:07
I had been wondering about that tbh still not had the opportunity for a proper read through of the new book but the way people were going on it almost seemed that all models in the fighting ranks would be able to attack regardless on whats in base to base contact with the enemy.

The stormvermin horde plus bell seems a very strong choice for the core of any army, wondering if its too big a point sink at 2k level though wouldnt be able to take a warlord for one thing.

decker_cky
01-07-2010, 18:23
Just noticed that Night Runners are initiative 5. That's a pretty nifty bonus to strike simultaneously with elves for a small unit. 15-20 could be nice on a flank.

Chaos Undecided
01-07-2010, 18:33
Waiting for someone to field a Skweel empowered Rat Ogre horde could be fun to field assuming you could afford to do so.

Would an infiltrating unit of Gutter Runners (possibly with poison) be a useful tool against opponents war machines or are Skaven better off trading fire with fire/gas and hoping their numbers can absorb the damage?

mrtn
01-07-2010, 21:29
My Gutter Runners killed a doom diver with poisoned slings in one shooting phase. :)

Icarus
01-07-2010, 21:47
Gutter Runners with Poison Slings does seem to be a winning combo, and still relatively cheap in small numbers. In larger 3k+ game you could add an Assassin with Warpstone Stars and really hurt things at short range.

Casshole
02-07-2010, 06:33
My assassin with warpforged blades (the old mordheim special char Veskit for my skryre army) came out and crushed Konrad today with his 4 s5 rerollable to hit poisoned attax in one turn.

Although I love the fluffiness of the GRs, there ld is a big problem, especially as they are usually pretty far from the general and assassins dont lend their ld at all.

I'm partial to the slave tarpit plus wft/wlc myself. I take 2 units of 50 slaves naked with mus and they have done beautifully in the 3 games of 8th ive played. get a wft close enough and watch your opponent wish they had some sweet life is cheap rules themselves. Remember that killin 10 slaves to every knight is still a skaven victory. you can even switch up ranks to make use of cornered rats if they are going to die for sure.

I also run 40 SV in horde and they also are working rather nicely, I usually drop my command in there (ikit, bsb, Warlock and plague priest) and just template/lightning the crud out of anyhitng locked by slaves

The only real reason im tempted at the Clan rats is the weapon teams slot, which is fluffy for my Skryre army. otherwise the slaves are betters, specially cause I can kill them myself.

The WLC is immensely better with new rules, and i only missed my target once (misfire), reliably hitting by aiming for 10-12 inches from the target. Popped Mannfred in one hit (take that bald freak!) Still cant hit anything with the mortar but ive been playing against unarmored VC so it hasnt been clinch or anything.

In the spirirt of Clan Skryre Im running two doomwheels too, one of which is the old school monstrosity. One thing I can say- keep them away from eachother, beacuse I killed there intended target with one set of good lightnings and the other one had to shoot its buddy, blowing it to kingdom come. It is terribly skavenish tho. :-)

I'm wondering mysef about rat swarms, now with TLOS the WLC and jezzails can see over most of the troops anyhow, and for for the points i think the slaves are a million times better.

Idle Scholar
02-07-2010, 12:05
I'm curious how the skaven 'horde' army holds up. So for example character and shooting lite, 5-8 big units (25-30 infantry, 4 Rat Ogres etc) and 4-6 support units (GR, Rat Packs, etc). I can see at 3000 pts you can just scale the system up by increasing the size of the large units by a third, but a lot of the strategies described here (2 x Warlord, 30 strong SV etc) seem to point to much smaller, or at least more compact skaven 2000 point armies.

PurchasedPig
02-07-2010, 12:52
I don't think so, I reckon most armies will have about 5 large blocks (40-50) led by (maybe) a Screaming Bell for the 18" bubble and filling in the rest as wants dictate. I think this will always give a decent sized base for your force.

I was personally thinking 1 Stormvermin, 1 Plague Monks at 40 and 1 Clanrats, 3 Slaves at around 50/60 each give or take with the Bell in the Clanrats. I would bulk out with Rat Ogres/Giant Rats and a Doomwheel. Probably a couple of Mortars/WFT's and take some Gutter Runners or something.

I would point out that I have NOT looked at the points for this type of build but I was thinmkig in the range of 3k pts. When it comes to 2k I don't knwo but the horde will, if anything, be even more viable with Steadfast as long as you take a decent flanking force.

-PurchasedPig-

Mr_Foulscumm
03-07-2010, 02:28
My assassin with warpforged blades (the old mordheim special char Veskit for my skryre army) came out and crushed Konrad today with his 4 s5 rerollable to hit poisoned attax in one turn.


Cool. One thing though. I was under the impression that magic weapons couldn't benefit from the poison rules under 8th.

Sygerrik
03-07-2010, 03:34
Just want to say I've been running dual Plagueclaw Catapults and they are ROCKING FACE. Easily my MVPs so far. With the huge hordes of infantry running around it's much easier to cause massive casualties, and even if you scatter you're likely to hit something in their packed deployment zones. Hordes are also nice and big and so if you cause one to panic (remember taking even 1 casualty from a Plagueclaw causes a panic check) you are likely to cascade it at least a little bit. And to top it all off, you're guaranteed perfect guesses every time! During terrain generation, if we get at least one tower (quite likely; a roll of 6 on 2d6 is just a vanilla building) I try to put it in a deployment zone and take that zone, for a catapult.

tl;dr take plagueclaw catapults, they rock like crazy now.

Casshole
03-07-2010, 15:32
You are quite right, no poison on magic weapons. Took a few readings though as the wording is somewhat backwards. I wonder if the weeping blades and assassin stars will get an errata to b poisoned.

I am mostly waiting on a kit for the plagueclaw, I have waaaay to many conversions in the skaven army going on right now. Are there plastic catapult kits in any other army?

CauCaSus
03-07-2010, 22:25
Just build one from balsa wood?

Joonatin
03-07-2010, 23:48
Chop up a Screaming Bell, use the Plague Furnace parts for the Catapult and the Bell parts for some terrain or another project. I'll probably use my spare censer with the smoke and the monks to make a catapult. I'll just have to figure out something for the actual catapult. Balsa might work though it doesn't have too much texture to fit that well next to the plastics... Maybe I'll have to carve it a little.

Blair
04-07-2010, 01:08
Isn't there going to be a Plagueclaw Catapult in the new boxed set?

Mr_Foulscumm
04-07-2010, 03:57
Isn't there going to be a Plagueclaw Catapult in the new boxed set?

Yes, that's what the rumours say anyway.

Thoras
04-07-2010, 10:08
Yes, that's what the rumours say anyway.

Not true, rumored (likely) contents of the Island of Blood boxed game are,

Warlord
Warlock
40 Clanrats
20 Slaves
Poisoned Wind Mortar
Warpfire Thrower
2 Rat Ogres with Packmaster
5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers

Haven't heard tell of any Plagueclaw model in the works tbh,

deadmeat30
04-07-2010, 11:46
the contents of the box there are confirmed ;) by me!!!

Casshole
05-07-2010, 07:19
Yeah plagueclaw catapult was mostly wishful thinking.

Not really digging the screaming bell approach, i dont own one so no bits and definitely dont like them that much.

Balsa wood is a good idea, but now Im actually thinkin ill make mine more skryrey, maybe alot metal scrap and guitar string/ twine holding it together. maybe the new globadiers will have a good kit bash for some crewman or just use my extra plague monks.

I believe I have heard that the elf sculpts are new but are the skaven ones as well? Actual slave models or just 60 of the new clan rats? New rogres? Super excited that my massive globadier units will not only b possible but also plastic

CmdrLaw
05-07-2010, 11:58
My plans for a new Skaven army has changed drastiacally due to the contents of boxed set.

Was planning lots of Stormvermin with doom flayers and a few plague priests.

But as GW are charging 30 for 20 Stormvermin :mad: and 18 for the same PP think I will alter my plans.

Now looking at 2 units of 40 CR's with the warpfire throwers and armed as the box set, 40 slaves armed as the box set. Plus the poisoned wind globadiers with Mortar and a unit of 40 Plague monks's with the plague furnace, 1 unit of 20 SV...maybe rat ogres if I have the points.. So basically the contents from 2 of the boxes.

Oh and a doomwheel to go with the orginal plan of "build a list with as many units with DOOM in the name as possible".

Skaven now seemed far too crowded in the Heroes allowance, needing Plague Priest warlocks and BSB's.....

noT_Him
05-07-2010, 12:24
Warlock and Plague Priest BSB and Assassin - Also a Bell would be nice :D

Bilbord
05-07-2010, 13:33
^go figures, are the Assassins good again in the new edition?

noT_Him
05-07-2010, 13:49
ASF + Higher I = reroll to hit in close combat :). So if you put them in a reg with chempion ( to soak up the unwanted chalanges ) I say thay are pretty nice to have aginst some lowly bsb guys ( i think you can target bsb if you contact him directly )

In an army I'm toying with ( skaven salad army - little bit of everything - makes for fun playing but isnt designed to tournament play ) I'm having problems betwean Plague Priest or Assassin - cost almost the same - two tottaly diffrent functions.

Also in 3000 pts I only manage to squise in about 150 models :/ - looks like I have a lot to learn :D

Hope that skavens in the box are armed propretly ( Spears and Shields for Clanrats and nothing for slaves ;) )

w3rm
05-07-2010, 15:39
Im thinking about not even bothing with clanrats this editon. Slaves are just so much better because they are just so cheap. Im thinking at least 2 units of 60 with spears and run them horde. 40 attacks is nothing to sniff at.

fubukii
05-07-2010, 17:09
one thing people dont consider about these horde modes is that

you wont get 40 attacks vs most units unless the are horde or 8 wide.

Vs a normal unit of 5 wide guys you would get 28 attacks which is alot less then you are planning for.

Clanrats will be useful for the ability to bring weapon teams such as WFT. One good wft shot will cripple a enemy infantry unit.

Johnmclane
05-07-2010, 22:19
This might be a tad off-topic but the latest whitedwarf really inspired to start a ... skaven army. The thing I want to do is a heavily scenarybased army where the scenery happen on the movement trays (see the vampire count in WD 367 (latest issue). Ialso realised that the dire wolves ar almost ratlike, a bit longer fangs and a rat tail in greenstuff and you have a huge rat.
So what I want is to cram every strange skaven warmachine and monster in a list that will look cool and also kick some ass.
This will be my first time ever playing warhammer since 1998 (and even then I just got a few games under my belt).

So what may I need to make a viable 1750 army with the above ? (just trying to wrap my mind about the cost and time a project like this will take. Got my eyes on the blood island box)

w3rm
06-07-2010, 00:35
If you want to take a bunch of sick nastynesswith lots of weird and wild then i say

Plague Priest on Furnace

3 units of 30 clanrats with WFT

2 units of 20 slaves


2 units of 15 giant rats

5 Jezzails

4 Rat Ogres with packmasters

HPA

WLC

sayles78
06-07-2010, 00:52
If you want to take a bunch of sick nastynesswith lots of weird and wild then i say

Plague Priest on Furnace

3 units of 30 clanrats with WFT

2 units of 20 slaves


2 units of 15 giant rats

5 Jezzails

4 Rat Ogres with packmasters

HPA

WLC

You're gunna need some Plague Monks to haul that thing...

Do you think that the WFT is the best option for attached weapon team? Why? Not saying you're wrong - just curious as to your experiences / expectations...

Max_Killfactor
07-07-2010, 12:53
My group is probably going to play 2500 points in 8th. Which is just enough to take a Verminlord and a cheap Warlord to be general.

I was very disapointed with the Verminlord in 7th, but I think he'll be solid in 8th.

Anyone else going to give the big guy another shot?

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 13:13
Do you think that the WFT is the best option for attached weapon team? Why? Not saying you're wrong - just curious as to your experiences / expectations...

No template partials means WFT's are burntabulous. Oh and you get one in island of blood as well as 40 clan rats...lovely match if you ask me.

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 13:14
I was very disapointed with the Verminlord in 7th, but I think he'll be solid in 8th.

Anyone else going to give the big guy another shot?

I think if anything he has become more vunerable, with TLOS...6's wound everything and more accurate cannon means he can be dropped very very quickly.

StratManKudzu
07-07-2010, 13:53
No template partials means WFT's are burntabulous. Oh and you get one in island of blood as well as 40 clan rats...lovely match if you ask me.

Didn't WFT already have no template partials?

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 14:03
Ah maybe, well with more bigger units about makes it better anyway :)

Max_Killfactor
07-07-2010, 15:33
I think if anything he has become more vunerable, with TLOS...6's wound everything and more accurate cannon means he can be dropped very very quickly.

Well, I usually use the storm banner. That helps some. I'll also have at least one HPA, and my model is much larger than the VL. So my opponent will have to decide which one he wants to focus on, or the VL could even hide behind the HPA.

The VL isn't that big. I think he may be able to hide behind rat ogres if the enemies aren't on a hill. I can't check right now though..

Rogzor87
07-07-2010, 15:51
WFT is probly going to be taken more because of the larger units being fielded all around in 8th. So it can cause more havoc. That + Panic on anything it wounds and if they run anything close can run shall be fun. Not to mention get someone in combat with your slaves you can just pivot and WFT that unit to death.

I have a Rat Ogre conversion with him swinging the Screaming Bell to be used as my Vermin Lord. I can easily hide him behind something. If I so desired before I got him into combat.

Johnmclane
07-07-2010, 20:12
Now I bought the army book and saw the hell pit abomination, an absolute must for my monsterous nasty skavenforce. Anyon who know what base size he's supposed to be mounted on? I'm building that guy, competative or not :)

Screaming Manti
07-07-2010, 21:42
GW have said they recommend 60x100 for the hellpit abominations base size. Its the same size as the base you get in the Plague furnace/Screaming bell kit

Esco Thomson
07-07-2010, 21:57
I think that Slaves and templates might be the way to go in 8th:

A few solid sized Clanrat units, 40 or so strong (currently leaning towards spears over shields - but that has yet to be decided) + Warpfire Throwers

At least 3 - 4 units of Slaves 40+ musician

3 x 5 Globadiers + 2 Poison Wind Mortars

2 x Catapult

2 x Cannon

Not exactly sure what to do for characters yet, or how many gutter runners to bring. Need to fit the Stormbanner in there as well to stop the opponent's war machines.

Plan will to be to neutralize enemy shooting/artillery with Gutters + Stormbanner, and attack with mine. Engage with Slaves to continue the barrage, and have the Clanrats at the back to mop up.

Obviously it is a rough sketch and plan as each game requires different tactics, but the general premise seems promising to me. Especially if I back it up with some decent characters.

fubukii
08-07-2010, 01:06
i think globes are pretty crappy overal especially since they need to hit, then randomize hits, then wound : /

15 shots 7.5 hits 3.75 hit the right target, 1.8 wound. 150 pts for 1.8 wounds :/ and with charge distances beiing so good you probably wont get shots off that are not into combats.

mrtn
08-07-2010, 01:19
Globadiers can take a Bombardier with a Death Globe. That's fun. :D

Esco Thomson
08-07-2010, 03:28
i think globes are pretty crappy overal especially since they need to hit, then randomize hits, then wound : /

15 shots 7.5 hits 3.75 hit the right target, 1.8 wound. 150 pts for 1.8 wounds :/ and with charge distances beiing so good you probably wont get shots off that are not into combats.

I think Globadiers still suck. I would be taking them solely for the cheaper access to more PWM.

Sygerrik
08-07-2010, 06:24
I think Globadiers still suck. I would be taking them solely for the cheaper access to more PWM.

They're still great (but less great) against Steam Tanks. And... not really much of anything else. All kinds of large targets, really. Plus side: they no longer get frightened off by terror. Minus side: no +1 to hit those large targets, that really helped. Strange side: Why do they have heavy armor?!

Tyrannus
08-07-2010, 07:20
Played a couple games with a new list and a few things i like, Screaming bell and its 18" leadership range is pretty amazing. Also a horde of 42 rats, 7 PM and skweel is brutal. made a mess of everything it hit, except the graveguard unit with regen banner and lord with etc, etc.

Verm1s
08-07-2010, 11:56
GW have said they recommend 60x100 for the hellpit abominations base size. Its the same size as the base you get in the Plague furnace/Screaming bell kit

Ah, sunnuvva...

Any links? And any objection to 50mm bases? Wot I just shelled out for

Esco Thomson
08-07-2010, 14:19
Ah, sunnuvva...

Any links? And any objection to 50mm bases? Wot I just shelled out for

Page 5 of 8 in the current Skaven FAQ:

Q. Whats the base size of a Hell Pit Abomination?

A. We suggest 60 x 100 mm. However, do keep in
mind that, as for all conversions, there are no strict
rules about base size (other than: Be reasonable!),
and that any forthcoming Citadel miniature might
be different from this suggested size.

Skaven FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1000262a_FAQ_Skaven_Mar2010.pdf)

Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace/Hellpit Abomination Base
$4.10 US (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod770032a)

Hope that helps!

sayles78
08-07-2010, 15:10
Played a couple games with a new list and a few things i like, Screaming bell and its 18" leadership range is pretty amazing. Also a horde of 42 rats, 7 PM and skweel is brutal. made a mess of everything it hit, except the graveguard unit with regen banner and lord with etc, etc.

I must have missed that - why does the Screaming Bell have an 18" leadership radius? Doesn't say anything about that in Skaven book, I'm sure... hooray if this is correct tho!

Esco Thomson
08-07-2010, 15:12
I must have missed that - why does the Screaming Bell have an 18" leadership radius? Doesn't say anything about that in Skaven book, I'm sure... hooray if this is correct tho!

It's an 8th edition thing, Inspiring Presence or something similar.

If your general or BSB is on a large target, or is a large target the effects of their abilities are increased from 12" to 18".

PurchasedPig
08-07-2010, 15:12
The Screaming Bell is a Large Target and Leadership bubbles from General/Battle Standard bearer are extended from 12" to 18" when the character is on a Large Target. It is in the new Rulebook.

-PurchasedPig-

sayles78
08-07-2010, 15:14
The Screaming Bell is a Large Target and Leadership bubbles from General/Battle Standard bearer are extended from 12" to 18" when the character is on a Large Target. It is in the new Rulebook.

-PurchasedPig-

Thank you. That's a nice bonus!

EDIT: And what the hell does a BSB do in the new rule set? EVERY army list I see for 8th has one in!

Verm1s
08-07-2010, 15:15
Page 5 of 8 in the current Skaven FAQ:

Ta muchly! Appreciated.

I'll see if I can fit the thing on a 50x50; but seeing as I'm using flat bases, if I want bigger I'll probably hack at a bit of black plasticard. :p

w3rm
08-07-2010, 19:02
Ok changed my Planned list

Verminlord
Assassin
Assassin
Plague Priest
BSB
60 Clanrats
30 Clanrats
30 Clanrats
20 Slaves
20 Slaves
20 Slaves
20 Slaves
30 Plague Monks
6 PWG with PWM
6 Plague Censor Bearer
Doomwheel
Doomwheel

Doomwheels each take a flank and the 60 Clanrat block goes horde with spears with the BSB and the 2 assassins in it. 8 str 4 and 2 str 3 reroll to hit poisoned attacks can really help turn the combat in the favor of the Clanrats and the 2 supporting units of 30 flank whatever the Horder unit ties up in combat. VL runs around and kills stuff with lore of plague.

Rogzor87
08-07-2010, 19:09
I know my rares are going to be the Catapults. Specials will be Rat Ogres and Plague Monks. Core will be Slaves and Clan rats(for WFT). Heros and Lords will be of Plenty!

fubukii
09-07-2010, 01:39
I dont really like the catapults the str 2 on a smal ltemplate is a turn off. WLC seem awesome though

shortlegs
09-07-2010, 01:56
Even with the changes of 8th ed, I somehow do not see previously extremely (overly?) powerful units like the HPA or doomwheel suddenly falling to the wayside and becoming unpopular. They are still massively points-efficient units, and with the amount of shooting already available from non-rare choices, I'll prefer to bring them instead of the catapult or WLC.

Sygerrik
09-07-2010, 02:34
I dont really like the catapults the str 2 on a smal ltemplate is a turn off. WLC seem awesome though

It's a good thing that we have a spell that permanently reduces toughness.
And the Catapult kicks the snot out of the WLC. The key is how many models it will hit. The stronger the Cannon shot, the fewer models it's likely to hit (the "bounce" die is the strength die, and a longer bounce is liable to overshoot and just get the 2-4 guys in a line. The Plagueclaw catapult can easily hit 30 guys with a single shot. Even against T4 troops, that's 5 casualties-- 10 if they're 3, like most basic infantry. And auto-panic?

Plagueclaws are incredible. Use them, don't theoryhammer, and you'll see.



Even with the changes of 8th ed, I somehow do not see previously extremely (overly?) powerful units like the HPA or doomwheel suddenly falling to the wayside and becoming unpopular. They are still massively points-efficient units, and with the amount of shooting already available from non-rare choices, I'll prefer to bring them instead of the catapult or WLC.

Neither can break ranks anymore. And neither HAS ranks, so neither can break units anymore unless you get really lucky. They're super killy, but they were drastically nerfed. Their potency came from their ability to break units, which they simply can no longer reliably do.

And you're not restricted. In 2500 points you can take a Doomwheel, a Hell Pit, and 2 Plagueclaws.

Gekiganger
09-07-2010, 03:25
Neither can break ranks anymore. And neither HAS ranks, so neither can break units anymore unless you get really lucky. They're super killy, but they were drastically nerfed. Their potency came from their ability to break units, which they simply can no longer reliably do.

And you're not restricted. In 2500 points you can take a Doomwheel, a Hell Pit, and 2 Plagueclaws.

Not to mention the abominations regen is going to be less likely with the abundance of fire going around. I like to think they're now 'balanced' though, since the skaven book was allegedly written with 8th in mind.

decker_cky
09-07-2010, 05:01
Thank you. That's a nice bonus!

EDIT: And what the hell does a BSB do in the new rule set? EVERY army list I see for 8th has one in!

Reroll all leadership tests within 12". ALL. That's right. Panic, terror, fear, rally, stupidity, spells forcing leadership tests, items forcing leadership tests. Every single one...

Rogzor87
09-07-2010, 10:13
So steadfast and SiN will work as a previous thread has been argued all over. The FaQ said it does..... HUZZAH for the Skaven!!!

"""Q. How does the ‘Strength in numbers’ rule interact with the
‘Steadfast’ rule? (p33)
A. The Strength in Numbers rule is applied after the Steadfast
rule (i.e. ranks are added to the unmodified Leadership)."""

Now people shall fear us! Stubborn LD 10 all around!!!!!!!!!

I do find it funny. So far I have seen that 2-3 people have said they won't play against skaven because they are broken now... Skaven are the new Daemons of 8th edition apparently.

shortlegs
09-07-2010, 12:24
The cynic in me feels the reason they allowed SiN to stack with steadfast is because Skaven is going to be in the new starter set. This gives players all the more reason to splurge cash on a new skaven army.

Is it just me or has skaven always been a top tier army, no matter the edition? Someone in GW HQ clearly loves his rats...

CmdrLaw
09-07-2010, 12:27
Has there been a consensus as to the "no duplicating spells" but warlocks can swap for warp lightning?

Doesn't seem to be mentioned in the FAQ

BruderLoras
09-07-2010, 14:41
The default spell can always be duplicated, and in the Skaven book, the default spells are defined on a hero type basis, not based on the lores themselves. So yes, several Engineers ould have WL, but not several Grey Seers.

Sygerrik
09-07-2010, 18:22
The cynic in me feels the reason they allowed SiN to stack with steadfast is because Skaven is going to be in the new starter set. This gives players all the more reason to splurge cash on a new skaven army.

Is it just me or has skaven always been a top tier army, no matter the edition? Someone in GW HQ clearly loves his rats...

Until fairly recently Skaven have been forced into rather cookie-cutter builds to be top tier. Witness how many SaD armies you saw in 6th-- sure, you COULD take Throt and a bunch of Ogres and Rats, but with skirmishing Jezzails and auto-hitting Ratling Guns, plus Warplightning that did 2d6 hits, there was not a lot of incentive to do so.

This edition toned down Skaven shooting while providing us a few new shooty choices to fill different roles (Catapult, Mortar), and toned up everything else.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 23:13
Stubborn LD 10 is nice, but Stubborn LD 9 with BSB nearby is basically 97% chance to pass and almost every army can get that.

sayles78
10-07-2010, 02:07
So - this stubborn debate...

Is this correct?

LD5 Skaven need to take a test in range of General:
5(LD) boosted to 7(General) + X(rank bonus), with no negatives from CR and re-rolled if in range of BSB.

That's insane.

Was just in the process of deciding Chaos or Skaven for my 1st 8th Ed army...

fubukii
10-07-2010, 02:19
no different then any other army man, most generals are ld9/10 why should skaven not get the same benefit?

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-07-2010, 03:22
They wouldn't because they are SKAVEN and are one of 3 armies that have a unit choice for every bulid/ enemy unit counter.

Gunline=Gutter Runners

Elite Enemy= Horde Clannies and Slaves

Heavy Armored Enemy = Jezzails and Rattling Guns

Horde = Plague Claw Catapults and Wrapfire thorwers

Etc, etc. . .

I play agaisnt Skaven enough to practically run an army of them and do fine ;D If its one thing Skaven didn't need on top of their already awesome unit choices it was this added bonus for leadership. I' m just kind of sad that they aren't like the Skaven of last ed. and have random things and more misfires more often. :/ They used to be like smart N.G with tails and fur, they were fun to win and lose against.

Now everytime my buddy busts them out I have to win as I abhore playing the new monstrousity called Skaven :/ -they have lost their orginality to me. The leadership thing was the last thing I was looking at to save some of their furry flavor. Alas it was not meant to be and thusly, Skaven have officially taken their spot at the top of the OP over demons. What a rise they have made indeed.

Skyros
10-07-2010, 03:38
So - this stubborn debate...

Is this correct?

LD5 Skaven need to take a test in range of General:
5(LD) boosted to 7(General) + X(rank bonus), with no negatives from CR and re-rolled if in range of BSB.

That's insane.

Was just in the process of deciding Chaos or Skaven for my 1st 8th Ed army...

Erm, does it work that way? I would think the skaven unit could use EITHER it's own LD + rank bonus OR that of the generals.

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 05:02
no different then any other army man, most generals are ld9/10 why should skaven not get the same benefit?
Erm... Because other armies do not have cheap as heck 2 point slaves that test at stubborn ld 10? Or for that matter, no other army has any Ld 10 unit for under 10 points, while Skaven has it en masse.

The idea of horde armies has always been large numbers of poor, undisciplined troops, in contrast to the small numbers of efficient, high Ld elite armies. Skaven, with SiN, has the benefits of both worlds.

I'm not saying that the SiN rule is broken, and I'm not trying to turn this into another argument or debate on skaven armies, but for a horde army to think that it deserves the best Ld in the game while paying peanuts for it is slightly... I dunno... arrogant?:p

StratManKudzu
10-07-2010, 05:24
Erm... Because other armies do not have cheap as heck 2 point slaves that test at stubborn ld 10? Or for that matter, no other army has any Ld 10 unit for under 10 points, while Skaven has it en masse.

The idea of horde armies has always been large numbers of poor, undisciplined troops, in contrast to the small numbers of efficient, high Ld elite armies. Skaven, with SiN, has the benefits of both worlds.

I'm not saying that the SiN rule is broken, and I'm not trying to turn this into another argument or debate on skaven armies, but for a horde army to think that it deserves the best Ld in the game while paying peanuts for it is slightly... I dunno... arrogant?:p

To be fair, the LD 10 is from a character in or the general near the slaves not the slaves themselves. most armies can get stubborn LD 9-10 with a character or general

Casshole
10-07-2010, 05:54
Forget about your skirmishers and lone units having any chance of passing unaided ld tests. Maybe not a fair comparison but gutters runners never stick around once they take a few wounds, my globadiers are pretty much glued to the general/bsb, same with weapons teams (easier to cause panic now).

Interesting note from faq- the storm deamon on ikit now ignores armor saves when it shoots lightning. Think that contradicts the faq they realeased for Skaven not too long ago.

Esco Thomson
10-07-2010, 06:05
Forget about your skirmishers and lone units having any chance of passing unaided ld tests. Maybe not a fair comparison but gutters runners never stick around once they take a few wounds, my globadiers are pretty much glued to the general/bsb, same with weapons teams (easier to cause panic now).

Interesting note from faq- the storm deamon on ikit now ignores armor saves when it shoots lightning. Think that contradicts the faq they realeased for Skaven not too long ago.


Eh...two things really:

First, after a bottle of wine, I think that it took me 25 minutes to realize your name wasn't Casserole, which is pretty hilarious I feel.

Secondly, and on topic, Storm Daemon needed that to make up for Ikit's lacking "rest of stuffs", and if you push your troops up fast enough, along with (say the Bell), you might find your GR's in range of your BS, and sticking a bit longer than normal.

I will explain, so as to avoid the confusions:

I am referring to a BSB in a unit which is pushing the Screaming Bell(to utilize a chance for the extra movement).

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 06:35
They wouldn't because they are SKAVEN and are one of 3 armies that have a unit choice for every bulid/ enemy unit counter.

Gunline=Gutter Runners

Elite Enemy= Horde Clannies and Slaves

Heavy Armored Enemy = Jezzails and Rattling Guns

Horde = Plague Claw Catapults and Wrapfire thorwers

Etc, etc. . .

I play agaisnt Skaven enough to practically run an army of them and do fine ;D If its one thing Skaven didn't need on top of their already awesome unit choices it was this added bonus for leadership. I' m just kind of sad that they aren't like the Skaven of last ed. and have random things and more misfires more often. :/ They used to be like smart N.G with tails and fur, they were fun to win and lose against.

Now everytime my buddy busts them out I have to win as I abhore playing the new monstrousity called Skaven :/ -they have lost their orginality to me. The leadership thing was the last thing I was looking at to save some of their furry flavor. Alas it was not meant to be and thusly, Skaven have officially taken their spot at the top of the OP over demons. What a rise they have made indeed.
Nice post.

I would agree that skaven is an army that has an answer to potentially any threat in the enemy army. Their versatility, cheapness, some really ridiculously powerful units... I would think having their infantry test on stubborn ld7 or 8 would be a nice balance, which, although slightly poorer than other armies testing on the general's Ld 9-10, is average or above while beyond the general's limited 12" range.

Also, skaven is an army that allows you to field the numbers necessary for steadfast in the first place, compared to say elves or dwarfs who, while having better Ld, most likely won't have the numbers for stubborn tests anyway, hence is irrelevant to the discussion on steadfast and SiN.

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 06:37
To be fair, the LD 10 is from a character in or the general near the slaves not the slaves themselves. most armies can get stubborn LD 9-10 with a character or general
Yes, but not at the extremely cheap price that skaven can get, which was my point..

Cheapness is balanced by poor stats generally, such as Ld, but SiN has removed this major reason for their cheapness in the first place.

Fenix Felder
10-07-2010, 07:30
steadfast looses its effectiveness after some (ok a lot) casualties , and skaven aren't particularly hard to kill, more so with all the nasty stuff other armies are getting. Just kill enough rats and they will scurry away.

fubukii
10-07-2010, 08:53
or flank them so they dont get sin.

sayles78
10-07-2010, 09:47
Erm, does it work that way? I would think the skaven unit could use EITHER it's own LD + rank bonus OR that of the generals.

That is exactly what I was getting at. To use both seems over the top, byt by the way everyone was talkin it was more or less agreed that the rank bonus should be added to Generals LD.

Verm1s
10-07-2010, 14:19
Ta muchly! Appreciated.

I'll see if I can fit the thing on a 50x50; but seeing as I'm using flat bases, if I want bigger I'll probably hack at a bit of black plasticard. :p

... but then I made a second order with Renedra this week, for regiment bases, and they also sent me a few free samples of their new 100x50mm bases. Which was nice. (http://www.freewebs.com/whichwasnice/) And just the ticket.

Sygerrik
11-07-2010, 02:36
That is exactly what I was getting at. To use both seems over the top, byt by the way everyone was talkin it was more or less agreed that the rank bonus should be added to Generals LD.

What's to talk about? It very specifically and clearly states in the book that SiN is applied after the General's leadership.

shortlegs
11-07-2010, 16:59
Well, while it seems clear that the intent of the errata is to allow SiN to stack for steadfast, the wording itself is still up for debate.

A poster on TWF, who is a member of the Dire Wolf FAQ council, says that even if you follow the FAQ and apply SiN to the general's Ld to give the unit an effective leadership of 10, the rule for steadfast specifically states to use the general's unmodified Ld. So it means you still only test on ld7, because steadfast is tested on the unmodified Ld and not on what the unit's effective / eventual Ld is.

I'm not saying that just being a part of Dire Wolf makes his word gospel, but what he says actually does make sense and at the very least, means that there are different valid ways of interpreting the rules.

Rogzor87
11-07-2010, 17:10
doesn't steadfast also specifically say to test on the units Unmodified leadership as well? Which it was FaQ'ed to let SiN stack on it. So why wouldn't SiN stack on the Generals LD aswell since its also part of the SiN rule.

Jokaero!
11-07-2010, 22:37
Greetings, instead of creating a new thread I wanted to ask some advice on an idea I have for a centre piece/deathstar unit for an Eshin themed army.

Would 11 Rat Ogres, Kitted out Warlord on Bonebreaker, BSB Chieftain, Skweel and a couple of Packmasters in horde formation be feasible or too overpriced for the role it would play? It would be protected on the flanks pretty well and mainly march up the middle. I'm guessing I would field it in a 4000 point game.

Rogzor87
11-07-2010, 22:39
I myself say try it out and see.

everyone else seems to be min-maxers and will say no because shooting and cannons will destroy it and not every army has that sort of ability to do so.

Asmodai48
11-07-2010, 22:39
Whats with people trying to get around faqs which are clear?

Jokaero!
11-07-2010, 22:45
Is a Warlord on Bonebreaker feasible in a unit of Stormvermin?

Rogzor87
11-07-2010, 23:08
he will do alot of dmg when he gets into combat but the enemy can easily target and shoot the crap out of him. In addition, he does not get look out sir.

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 00:35
Whats with people trying to get around faqs which are clear?

There wouldn't be any debate if things were clear....wait a minute this is a forum of course there would.

LaughinGremlin
12-07-2010, 05:23
Yes, lords on bonebreakers can avoid shooting in units of rat ogres, but what about the Pox Rat? Before 8th edition, I had planned to put either a warlord or priest on a pox rat, which would look great leading a unit of infantry;
however, in 8th, he'll get targeted. Is there ANY way I can utilize a cool pox rat model so that it doesn't get shot?

Aljoman
12-07-2010, 06:51
Actually i had a look and reached the conclusion a bonebreaker mounted lord can't get targeted out of a unit, actually i didn't find anything to say a large target could be shot at out of a unit either. Of course they will not receive a lookout sir if they get sniped by a cannon but i couldn't find anything allowing shooting to single them out.

Correct me if i am wrong. War litter gets lookout sir, looks like the best option.

OK edit.

Turns out for larger characters in units you apply a hit to each model in the unit before adding a second, kind of like how wound allocation works in 40K. Means a Bonebreaker in a unit of 30 should be safe, except for the no lookout sir and cannons i mentioned.

Vaul
12-07-2010, 06:57
or flank them so they dont get sin.

Strength in Numbers adds the units current ranks to leadership, not their current rank bonus.

Aljoman
12-07-2010, 07:00
Strength in Numbers adds the units current ranks to leadership, not their current rank bonus.

Nope, it adds rank bonus, which will be capped at 3/reduced after taking casualties(now ranks are calculated at the end of combat)/negated by a flanker.

Vaul
12-07-2010, 07:04
Nope, it adds rank bonus, which will be capped at 3/reduced after taking casualties(now ranks are calculated at the end of combat)/negated by a flanker.

You sure? I haven't got my army book on me because i'm in work. I was pretty sure it said current ranks, not current rank bonus. Actually now that i think about it you may be right...

Aljoman
12-07-2010, 07:07
Rest assured that it is rank bonus, have the book in front of me and everything.

madden
12-07-2010, 07:07
Anyone else notice that regen is shut down for the whole phase if you take one flaming wound from any source such as a hero wounds hpa with flame then the other troops don't need to worry about regen until the next turn.

Vaul
12-07-2010, 07:11
Rest assured that it is rank bonus, have the book in front of me and everything.

Ah cool. My bad. 7am over here, and i've been working since 9pm. Brain is a bit foggy.

mrtn
12-07-2010, 11:03
Yes, lords on bonebreakers can avoid shooting in units of rat ogres, but what about the Pox Rat? Before 8th edition, I had planned to put either a warlord or priest on a pox rat, which would look great leading a unit of infantry;
however, in 8th, he'll get targeted. Is there ANY way I can utilize a cool pox rat model so that it doesn't get shot?
Well, it depends on how you read the unit type rules. The pox rat is a War Beast, and a ridden War Beast "use the rules for cavalry". Some people think this means that they are cavalry, and not war beasts, while I read it as if it just borrows the rules, but it's still counted as a war beast.

If I'm right then you could run a pox rat in a unit of giant rats and get a "look out sir!" roll. :)

scarvet
12-07-2010, 14:35
Rat Ogre have frenzied, not a good place to put your general at all.

There is just no reason not to ride a warlitter given it occupy at least 2 wide and 2 deep in a unit.....

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 15:35
Wait you guys aren't suggesting you can use your generals inspiring presence LD and then apply your ranks?

Surely you either have the basic LD of the unit plus the rank bonus for SiN, or you use the nearby unmodified generals LD.

You can get LD 10 but only if a hero/lord is leading the unit, so when people say LD 10 Slaves!!!!! are they implying that they have a cheiftain leading a bunch of slaves??
Otherwise slaves max LD would be Stubborn LD 5 and clan rats would be Stubborn LD 8.

Or I might have misread entirely.


And with regards to rolling stubborn the FAQ states "you add your ranks to the unmodified LD"
to me that says you add your SiN bonus to your LD for stubborn rolls. As it says you add a bonus to the unmodified roll. (which in turn doesn't make much sense but its clear what they mean)

LaughinGremlin
12-07-2010, 17:03
Well, it depends on how you read the unit type rules. The pox rat is a War Beast, and a ridden War Beast "use the rules for cavalry". Some people think this means that they are cavalry, and not war beasts, while I read it as if it just borrows the rules, but it's still counted as a war beast.

If I'm right then you could run a pox rat in a unit of giant rats and get a "look out sir!" roll. :)

I've never fathomed putting anything large into a unit of giant rats. It just wasn't in my paradigm. It just seems odd to me that something on a 40 mm base with the word "monstrous" attached to it cannot be sniped when it is surrounded by little rats (in comparison) on 20 mm bases.

I'm grateful that you are trying to figure out a way to protect the pox rat.
Can anyone else confirm mrtn's thoughts? The Skaven book calls the pox rat "verminous cavalry," it follows all the normal rules for cavalry (it even has just one wound), although it is mounted on a 40 mm base.

Yes, Aljoman, the litter gets a "look out sir" roll. If mrtn's hunch is incorrect, I am now considering counting my pox rat as a war litter to get a "look out sir" roll. Cheesy?

Thank you both!

LaughinGremlin
12-07-2010, 17:14
My verminous cavalry model is actually a wiry, feral, buff looking gigantic rat mount from Rackham miniatures -- it originally came with an orc model to sit on top of it. This is much more fitting for a warlord than the Skaven Book's description of a pox rat, which is more wide than tall, bloated (pathetically dragging its nurglesque belly on the ground)... So, I can justify counting this vicious, more tall than wide rat-mount as being a war litter.

BajsArne
13-07-2010, 14:43
How much of Skaven's alleged top-tierdness is dependent on 60man slave blocks? Because I don't feel like painting that. Or play them really.

Rogzor87
13-07-2010, 18:36
You could buy Nurglitch and get the Great Pox Rat. He's the Clan Pestilence Leader.

Other then that its not base size that matters when it comes to characters being sniped. Its what Characters are classified as. Only thing of the same categorization protect each other.

skavenmatt
13-07-2010, 19:40
The rule book is pretty clear on steadfast:
you can use the unit's unmodified leadership, or your general's unmodified leadership if he is within range.
The Skaven FAQ is pretty clear on strength in numbers:
You apply strength in numbers after the steadfast rule. I don't know how so many people are misreading maybe it's how they use the initials "I.E." in the FAQ, which means In Example, not "the only possible example."

So Skaven are very very brave as long as they're outnumbering you and not being flanked/rear attacked by a unit with two or more ranks of 5 models or 3 models if they're monstrous.

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 15:30
Anyone else considered throwing a naked warlord inevery big unit for the LD 10?
Seeing as its not slots anymore I think the LD buff for a very cheap rat is well worth the points.

mrtn
14-07-2010, 15:36
Wouldn't that naked warlord just get killed in the first round of fighting, and thus be pointless?

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 15:48
well 3 wounds is nothing to be laughed at, Would go with cheiftain, but heros' % is far too crowded.

PurchasedPig
14-07-2010, 15:49
Also he could always go at the back of the unit if that was to be feared - got to love cowardly characters!

On that note Warlock Engineers with no upgrades go hide a the back of Slaves to markedly boost their Ld if so desired. 15pts is very cheap.

-PurchasedPig-

CauCaSus
14-07-2010, 21:23
You can't do that anymore unless you refuse a challenge AND your opponent chooses to "retire" the warlord (which he will never do. He'll just leave him at the front to be killed by 6 rank and file).

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 03:22
Got a few quick questions guys:

1. For the purposes of having a durable unit that's going to stick in combat, how many ranks of Clanrats do you guys recommend for a Ld.10 Steadfast? Whats the best formation for these guys to be?

2. Whats the best hero/lord choices in a 2500 game? Is it magic heavy? Would you guys ever take 2 Grey Seers with the same Lore? (or does it restrict it too much since you cant have the same spell)

3. What does the rest of your army look like in that point range? I'm especially interested in the rare selection. Those Plague Catapults look really tempting with their Large Blast templates :)

Thanks.

iaguz
15-07-2010, 06:19
If you want an anchor unit you take slaves, not clanrats. Slaves cost half as much, die about as fast to everything as clanrats and do about the same damage back. The main advantage to clanrats is they take weapon teams. That's it.

Grey Seers choose from both lores and can divide rolls between them, so you don't actually have to say which lore you're playing with (could be massively wrong here, FAQ doesn't say anything about this I think). Not sure about the 2 Grey Seer's thing though.

Poison Wind Mortars are probably the weapon (team) of choice this edition, now that they are much easier to land and that Warp FIre Throwers are going to have a very hard time angling for a good shot, what with enemy units charging much longer then they did before.

Not sure about PlagueClaw catapults. I NEED my Hellpit as it's the only unit with significant grunt in the army (other then perhaps rat ogres, perhaps?) and I like 2 doomwheels to dominate both flanks (and because they are fun! Considering that units cannot escape their random movement charges, I see them as the end-all, be-all of all cheap throwaway flank units). WLC's might get popular too, seeing as you can take 2 of them and still a hellpit (or 2 catapults if you're a dick)

madden
15-07-2010, 09:17
Plus the cannon has a template and there are gonna be large units about.

fubukii
15-07-2010, 11:33
in 2500 you can fit
2 Plague claw
2 WLC
1 abomination

thats what im gonna run for my rare selection.

Infurion
15-07-2010, 12:42
in 2500 you can fit
2 Plague claw
2 WLC
1 abomination

thats what im gonna run for my rare selection.
I'm curious of the rest of the army. :)

stahly
15-07-2010, 12:59
Sorry if this has asked before, how does a Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace interact with the horde rule? Does your pushing unit still need to be 10 wide plus the Bell/Furnace or does the Bell/Furnace base contribute to the needed width of the unit?

CmdrLaw
15-07-2010, 13:22
No you count the models the furnace would displace, so it doesn't need 10 models plus the furnace.

Idle Scholar
15-07-2010, 13:44
If you want an anchor unit you take slaves, not clanrats. Slaves cost half as much, die about as fast to everything as clanrats and do about the same damage back. The main advantage to clanrats is they take weapon teams. That's it.

A WS3 S3 A1 model will cause 1/3 of a wound on a naked slave (0.33) as opposed to 5/36 of a wound (0.14) to a clanrat with shield and hand weapon.

A WS4 S3 A1 model will still cause 1/3 of a wound to the slave and 5/27 (0.19) wounds to the clanrat.

At this point further increases in WS make no difference.

A WS3 S4 A1 model will cause 1/3 of a slave wound and 25/108 (0.23) wounds to the clanrat.

A WS4 S4 A1 model will cause 4/9 (0.44) of a slave wound and 25/81 (0.31) wounds to the clanrat.

A WS4 S5 A1 model will cause 5/9 (0.56) slave wounds and 25/54 (0.46) clanrat wounds.

At this point further increases in strength will make no difference.

So from this I'd say that you will always lose more points of clanrats than of slave even if you give the slaves spears, at which point they will do more damage to everything. However they can't have standards and will be giving away 1/2 to 1/4 more kills so making it that much more likely that you'll lose combat overall.

My conclusion from this (which is what I figured anyway) is that my 2000 pt army will now include 2 x 60 rat spear slave units. These will hold against killer units for a few turns and grind down any T3 units over the same amount of time. What I won't do is bother supporting them with anything as it'll just be a death sentence for whatever else I throw in.

For multiple charges Ill be using blocks of 30 Clanrats with shields which are our best holding unit and support them with characters, Rat Ogres, small units of SV and possibly flanking units of 30 Giant Rats with packmasters and MM.

Clanrat
15-07-2010, 13:45
as Cmdrlaw said, they count as being i believe 3 models wide, so you`d only actually need another 7 models in the rank to count as horde

On the plagueclaw sidre of things, yes they may only be S2, but they do use the large template and unlike normal stone throwers armour saves are notr allowed. Id consider this to be well worth using.

Clanrat
15-07-2010, 13:57
Wait you guys aren't suggesting you can use your generals inspiring presence LD and then apply your ranks?

Cmdrlaw, just to point out this is exactly how it works ....

Page 33


Note that a skaven general confers his basic LD and then units modify it with their own rank bonus. any bonus from the general's unit is not passed on.

Therefore a unit of slaves within inspiring prescence range of a warlord would be 7 (from general) + whatever the slaves rank bonus is :)

CmdrLaw
15-07-2010, 14:09
Cmdrlaw, just to point out this is exactly how it works ....

Page 33



Therefore a unit of slaves within inspiring prescence range of a warlord would be 7 (from general) + whatever the slaves rank bonus is :)

Yeah I managed to miss that wording completely, thanks for putting me right.

All I can say is its a good time to be a skaven player, cause that there is good stuff.

Army basically HAS to disrupt skaven units now.

Godgolden
15-07-2010, 14:36
yay for making the leadership stat meanigless!

Idle Scholar
15-07-2010, 15:40
yay for making the leadership stat meanigless!

Yeah :/ Well at least until the general+BSB gets nuked. Seriously, that's going to be the No. 1 anti Skaven tactic now.

PurchasedPig
15-07-2010, 15:57
Currently that is the ONLY anti-Skaven tactic of note. As it stands they are all braver than the bravest of Dwarves. I use Empire, Brets and Lizardmen and you can guarantee every Mortar/Helstorm/Dwellers Below/Trebuchet/Stegadon/Grail Knight etc. will be fired onto the general first and the BSB next in a desperate attempt to level the playing field.

-PurchasedPig-

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 18:46
What is the ideal unit size and formation for a unit of Slaves?

Looking at it, they have Ld.2. Even with say... +3 ranks, that's Ld.5 right? Sure, you get to use the General's leadership, but how large should this unit before you lose effectiveness on 12" bubble they are have to be in.

Idle Scholar
15-07-2010, 18:57
For me:

Clanrats: 30, (5 x 6) Shields, full command,

Stormvermin: 14 or 15 (2 x 7), musician,

Slaves 1: 20, slings, musician (2 x 10);

Slaves 2: 60 to 100, spears, musician. Either 10 x X for T3 troops to grind them down or 5 x X for keeping steadfast.

Giant Rats: 5 & 1 PM (classic 'rat pack') or a minimum of 25 + 4 PM + MM (5 x 6)

JonnyTHM
15-07-2010, 20:26
I dont really like the catapults the str 2 on a smal ltemplate is a turn off. WLC seem awesome though

small templates? why would you use a small template?

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 20:28
small templates? why would you use a small template?

Exactly.. it's the Large Template that makes it really attractive.

fubukii
16-07-2010, 01:51
I thought it had used the small template because my AB stated it was as a stone thrower and i never actually used on in 7th edition i always used 2 aboms or 2 wheel or 1 and 1. i have relooked the the PCC and it has quite a good choice in 8th

I will be using 2 PCC 2 WLC and 1 abomination

fubukii
16-07-2010, 14:12
I'm curious of the rest of the army. :)

I will post my exact list later tonight,

But off the top of my head it is

Warlord - bonebreaker, Warlock wpn, 4+ward item from Rulebook, enchanted shield
gives him a total of 10 str 5 attacks with a 2+ save and 4+ ward. 4 wounds and imune to killing blow pretty beastly. He joins a unit of Storm vermin with Armor piercing banner.
Grey seer - 5 + ward (+4 to dispel is big, casting wither /bless with filth on enemy u nits lets use rack the wounds with our large hordes too especially spear units)
chieftan bsb with storm banner and shield.
2 units of 70 slaves with spears musician( i just dont think i could fit more near the general)
2 units of 40 slaves spears.
39 Storm vermin full cmd Armor Piercing banner
2 x 5/1 giant rats/Packmaster
8 ratogres 2 pack masters ( may split up into 2 units and keep nearby as flankers undecided at this time will have to play test)
2 PCC
2 WLC
1 abomination

Gives me a couple of good tarpits and a few good hammers. Some pretty intense shooting. i may of had a 30ish clanrat block in there but i cant recall off the top of my head. i have the list saved on my laptop.

Hydex
16-07-2010, 14:14
Where do you put your Warlord?

Rogzor87
16-07-2010, 15:30
I will post my exact list later tonight,

But off the top of my head it is

Warlord - bonebreaker, Warlock wpn, 4+ward item from Rulebook, enchanted shield
gives him a total of 10 str 5 attacks with a 2+ save and 4+ ward. 4 wounds and imune to killing blow pretty beastly. He joins a unit of Storm vermin with Armor piercing banner.
Grey seer - 5 + ward (+4 to dispel is big, casting wither /bless with filth on enemy u nits lets use rack the wounds with our large hordes too especially spear units)
chieftan bsb with storm banner and shield.
2 units of 70 slaves with spears musician( i just dont think i could fit more near the general)
2 units of 40 slaves spears.
39 Storm vermin full cmd Armor Piercing banner
2 x 5/1 giant rats/Packmaster
8 ratogres 2 pack masters ( may split up into 2 units and keep nearby as flankers undecided at this time will have to play test)
2 PCC
2 WLC
1 abomination

Gives me a couple of good tarpits and a few good hammers. Some pretty intense shooting. i may of had a 30ish clanrat block in there but i cant recall off the top of my head. i have the list saved on my laptop.

Apparently in the unit of Stormvermin.

StratManKudzu
16-07-2010, 17:31
Apparently in the unit of Stormvermin.

Don't be rude, obviously he asked that before the post was edited to tell where the general goes.

Beware the Retcon...

Navar
16-07-2010, 19:38
Or the RATcon

DigitalDogParty
16-07-2010, 20:32
That Plagueclaw Catapult is lookin' quite good now; especially if you cast Wither on the units you wish to hit it with.