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View Full Version : So think chaos dwarfs are going be killed in 8th?



wizuriel
31-05-2010, 01:31
In the 7th edition rulebook chaos dwarfs are still listed as a fully legal and playable army, though over the years it seems their right to exist keeps getting questioned (epically at GW tournaments). So what do people think in 8th edition. GW finally going to redo them, or just not put them down as a legal army. One of the hand they have gotten no support since forever, on the other GW has promised numerous times they weren't going to abandon playable armies (they might forget about them, but not just outright squat them right?).

ooglatjama
31-05-2010, 01:56
I will shoot death lasers if they are.

FashaTheDog
31-05-2010, 02:01
After the chorus of whining became so loud with the Squats being dropped that the mere use of the word was enough to have posts locked and users banned on their forums, GW is a little gun shy about doing that sort of thing. What will likely happen is that they will continue on as is with the army left to the fans. If it remains tournament legal will be another story.

Orktavius
31-05-2010, 03:54
They will probably go the way of the squats

snottlebocket
31-05-2010, 05:42
I doubt they'll be eradicated like the squats considering they have a moderately important role in the fluff. They're pretty much the go-to guys everytime greenskins, ogres or chaos need some cool engineering or blacksmithing done.

That said, I'm doubtful they'll bother to create another armylist for them.

Frankly
31-05-2010, 06:05
GW couldn't enough get playable armybooks re-released in 7th(OK, TK) so I doubt that they'll get PDF files re-hashed this E.d., mainly because there no money in it for them.

TonyFlow
31-05-2010, 06:44
Isnt the new forgeworld fantasy division rumoured to be doing some Chaos Dwarfs at some time? Maybe they will make rules for them as well. This way it will be a semi-official army like the armylists in Imperial Armour from Forgeworld.

Just a guess.

Shadowsinner
31-05-2010, 07:00
how can you kill that which is already dead? Chaos dwarfs are a redundant army in my opinion. It's more like wishlisting bonus strengths to another army rather than making a new army itself.

Frankly
31-05-2010, 07:41
I disagree Shadowsinner, there is a huge difference between chaos and normal dwarves and their players, to make such a generalised comment is just plain wrong.

warriorpoet1
31-05-2010, 07:45
The Chaos Dwarfs are mentioned by name in at least 2 of the new set of Army books that are out (Warriors of Chaos and O&G). So personally, I doubt that they will be killed off completely. Actually, since they're mentioned in the fluff, I doubt that you can actually kill them off. I like the idea that FW are going to do something with them, but more likely, they'll just exist in this semi-legal state that they are in at the moment.

Scythe
31-05-2010, 08:09
The Chaos Dwarfs are mentioned by name in at least 2 of the new set of Army books that are out (Warriors of Chaos and O&G). So personally, I doubt that they will be killed off completely. Actually, since they're mentioned in the fluff, I doubt that you can actually kill them off. I like the idea that FW are going to do something with them, but more likely, they'll just exist in this semi-legal state that they are in at the moment.

You mean like Estallia, Tilea, Araby, Cathay, Nippon, Ind etc are also mentioned in the fluff?

Reality is, since Ravening Hordes at the very start of 6th edition (which was a rules only update, mind, not a model one), CD have been ignored by GW. Yeah, they showed up a couple of times in a background story, but that's nothing special. They have been imported a bit into WoC with the 6th edition Hellcannon release, which got several people's hopes up, but silence is all that followed.

As much as I dislike Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs (nothing personal), I see potential in them from an artistic point of view, so I think they could be an interesting army (like Cathay, Araby, Ind, Hobgoblins etc.)
Reality is though, that with their limited popularity, and the lagging behind in army books in 7th edition (the less popular Ogres, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings and Brettonians are still without updates), I cannot see them surfacing anywhere in the next 5 years as things are currently.
Effectively, they are death at the moment. The question should be wether they will be resurrected anytime soon.

Darnok
31-05-2010, 08:10
They will at least not go the way of the Squats.

Chaos Dwarfs are mentioned several times in the current background. And quite detailed too - as detailed as you can get for a race that is not a playable faction at the moment. They have their place in the Warhammer world, and there is just no reason to erase them.

Chaos Dwarfs are quite popular. There are many people with converted armies, there are fans of the old models (including me), and you have a community supporting itself. There is even a fancreated armybook out there!

Chaos Dwarfs are heavily rumoured to be supported be the upcoming fantasy division of Forgeworld.

This three reasons do it for me. I have no clue when the CD will get their remake, but I have no doubts that it will happen in some way. But until then I have to find a way to actually play with my models under the new ruleset... :shifty:

dragonet111
31-05-2010, 12:10
I don't play them, I don't want to play them but I prefer to see the return of the chaos dwarf to the creation of a new army.

I hope they won't get erase and get a new armylist/book soon.

TeddyC
31-05-2010, 12:48
if FW are doing some stuff they may become an 'allies' list.... a bit like ogres but cant be stand alone?

Rochr
31-05-2010, 12:49
Since the Chaos Warriors and Chosen get their armour from Chaos Dwarfs I can't see how they can eradicate them. Unless....maybe Warriors of Chaos can make a deal with Dwarfs for some pimp Gromril Armour.... I won't say it can't happen because knowing GW it probably could.

Grimstonefire
31-05-2010, 13:03
My guess is that CD will be removed from 'legal' play in 8th, then brought in as a full race in 9th, with plastic regiments etc once Forge World have done all the hard work redesigning them.

I think if the CD are mentioned in the rules section at all it will be a very good sign that at some point in the next 4 years they will have a stand alone FW list.

The SkaerKrow
31-05-2010, 13:09
I expect that they'll finally be dropped, perhaps for Forgeworld to mess around with. Their days as an official, legal army have come to a close.

Dai-Mongar
31-05-2010, 13:19
I see no reason why they couldn't get another PDF army list. It would be quite funny if the first army after 8th was actually the Chaos Dwarf PDF. :D

warriorpoet1
31-05-2010, 13:28
Since the Chaos Warriors and Chosen get their armour from Chaos Dwarfs I can't see how they can eradicate them.

Also, they created the Black Orcs. If you get rid of them, then who created the Black Orcs...They are the crew of the Chaos Hellcannon. So seriously guys, they can't be killed off. They are actually in an army list, and have actual models.
The Defense Rests.

Gekiganger
31-05-2010, 15:41
The Chaos Dwarfs are mentioned by name in at least 2 of the new set of Army books that are out (Warriors of Chaos and O&G).

And the skaven book.

The lack of a third option in the poll means I'm not going to bother voting. I seriously doubt they'll be 'killed off', but being made an official list is something else.

One day maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

theunwantedbeing
31-05-2010, 15:54
I bet they'll get a White Dwarf list.
No models, you convert your own but they'll give a heap of sugguestions.

Then maybe they'll make the list into an actual official book with models and such.

wizuriel
31-05-2010, 15:56
And the skaven book.

The lack of a third option in the poll means I'm not going to bother voting. I seriously doubt they'll be 'killed off', but being made an official list is something else.

One day maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

What would the third option be? They will either be mentioned in the 8th edition rulebook as a legal army or they won't be.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 16:02
I bet they'll get a White Dwarf list.

If only... I'm afraid it's unlikely though, they didn't do it for 6th, they didn't do it for 7th.. they probably won't do it for 8th. Bah, the ravening Hordes list will still work I suppose, I haven't seen any rumour that invalidated it for now.


What would the third option be? They will either be mentioned in the 8th edition rulebook as a legal army or they won't be.

They may be mentionned in the fluff, but not as a legal army. I fail to see where they're mentionned as a playable army in the 7th ed rulebook to be honest. tehy're there on that "other races" page along with dragons and Cathay...

no_one
31-05-2010, 16:39
yes, and dragons are playable...
I think they'll stay like they are

wizuriel
31-05-2010, 16:45
They may be mentionned in the fluff, but not as a legal army. I fail to see where they're mentionned as a playable army in the 7th ed rulebook to be honest. tehy're there on that "other races" page along with dragons and Cathay...

BfSP and hardcover book both shows them in the stats and characteristic section with the other 7th edition armies.

Red Metal
31-05-2010, 20:17
I think they'll really just remain the same - a nice, fluff history/talking point and a pseudo-legal army.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 20:53
yes, and dragons are playable...

As an army? Not any different than chaos dwarfs being playable in a chaos army as hellcanon crew.

But yeah they have their profiles in the book. Not very useful w/o point costs (or rules but we could do w/o), sadly, so that doesn't really make them playable :'(

Gekiganger
31-05-2010, 22:32
What would the third option be? They will either be mentioned in the 8th edition rulebook as a legal army or they won't be.

'Killed off' in the way the squats were would mean them being completely obliterated from fluff.

Legal army would mean a full rulebook and, likely, a model range.

The third option is them being in fluff but having no legal rules to play them with. Pretty much as they are now. Arguing they are 'legal' is pretty controversial if tourney scenes etc are not allowing them to be played, but they're certainly still around considering they have a hellcannon model and mention in at least 3 army books.

stashman
31-05-2010, 23:28
And the skaven book.


and the ogre leadbelchers are made from chaos dwarfs

Scythe
01-06-2010, 05:41
The third option is them being in fluff but having no legal rules to play them with. Pretty much as they are now. Arguing they are 'legal' is pretty controversial if tourney scenes etc are not allowing them to be played, but they're certainly still around considering they have a hellcannon model and mention in at least 3 army books.

It is the safe option for GW which won't generate that much fan backlash I guess. After all, if you keep giving a hint now and then, fans won't complain too much that CD have gone the way of the Squat.

zak
01-06-2010, 12:56
and the ogre leadbelchers are made from chaos dwarfs

Made me giggle.

I just don't see them resurfacing at all this edition. Even if FW Fanatasy get hold of them we still haven't got a date to my knowledge of when they will begin. It could be years. Once it is set up and they do start to produce models there is nothing to say that they will be given any rules to use as a playable army.

MercuryLamp
01-06-2010, 13:10
After the chorus of whining became so loud with the Squats being dropped that the mere use of the word was enough to have posts locked and users banned on their forums, GW is a little gun shy about doing that sort of thing. What will likely happen is that they will continue on as is with the army left to the fans. If it remains tournament legal will be another story.

Most of those people were trolls, not people who were actually playing 40K in 1991...

CaptainFaramir
01-06-2010, 14:14
Ok.... I'm confused. When were Squats dropped? I thought Squats were an Epic army (including the rather wonderful "Squat Gun-Train")?

Were there ever 40k "squats"?? And if so, can anyone link to a pic? They sound amazing?

EDIT: OH MY GOD! They wore shades and smokes cigars and looked, as my cousin would have in, FULL.OF.EPIC.WIN! It's like a whole squadron of very short Bruce Willises wearing vests and looking shithot!

OldMan
01-06-2010, 18:56
Do i sense a pinch of irony Cpt.Faramir? :)

The WH40 squat minis i have seen online were actually that bad you desribe, but don't lagh at their EPIC army. Their war enginees look amazing, and i really can't understand why GW have scrapped such wonderful things like, say - Leviathan Transport.

According to "official" letter floating in net, this was the reason of being dropped. They were great EPIC, but a silly caricature in wh40, and GW had no idea how to change it. Don't know why orcs have monopoly for humor though.

besides, what do You have against Bruce Willis ? :D . The small men-at-(big)-arms were so... cute. They were more of space halfings than space dwarfs.

LaughinGremlin
02-06-2010, 00:48
Also, they created the Black Orcs. If you get rid of them, then who created the Black Orcs...They are the crew of the Chaos Hellcannon. So seriously guys, they can't be killed off. They are actually in an army list, and have actual models.
The Defense Rests.

I'd like to see the CD get an update as well as you, but as your attorney, I advise you to pick another argument than the above logic. The old ones created the lizardmen, but there will never be an army book titled, "The Old Ones."

If you want to be convincing to a business, then convince it that a CD range and book will generate revenue. Good luck.

I bet that the infamous sculptor in Russia and maybe ForgeWorld will be the sculptors of CD for quite a while. I'm guessing that basic line stats will be in
8th edition. This is based more on wishing than anything else...

I'll give the CD fans this -- the CD's return is more probable than the second coming of a certain celebrity, and I'm not talking about Elvis.
Of course, I'd rather see the return of CD, Dogs of War, some form of Kislev...

freebooter
02-06-2010, 02:16
I gotta agree with some of the comments above, sadly...
This poll is flawed, it needs a third option.
[b]They will receive no army book, list update, errata or official models but will not be officially 'cut'.[b/]

I remember the rumour mill turning and saying that they were going to become a Forge World project with rules and miniatures down the track?

warriorpoet1
02-06-2010, 03:29
I'd like to see the CD get an update as well as you, but as your attorney, I advise you to pick another argument than the above logic. The old ones created the lizardmen, but there will never be an army book titled, "The Old Ones."

If you want to be convincing to a business, then convince it that a CD range and book will generate revenue. Good luck.

I bet that the infamous sculptor in Russia and maybe ForgeWorld will be the sculptors of CD for quite a while. I'm guessing that basic line stats will be in
8th edition. This is based more on wishing than anything else...

I'll give the CD fans this -- the CD's return is more probable than the second coming of a certain celebrity, and I'm not talking about Elvis.
Of course, I'd rather see the return of CD, Dogs of War, some form of Kislev...

Yeah Sorry about that, I got a bit hot under the collar.
I would also love to see CDs, Dogs of War and Kislev (all armies I have collected in the past), but deep deep down, I know that GW will only make something when they know money is in it, and these 3 armies are not sure sellers like say, O&Gs or Empire.
I also agree with freebooter, this poll is flawed and needs a third option, because CDs future isnt black and white, and I bet GW dont really know what they're gonna do with them right now.

Dai-Mongar
02-06-2010, 04:33
That being said, they couldn't have known that OK or Tau were a sure thing. Particularly the Tau, putting such a shiny-happy-goodtimes army into grimdark 40K was a ballsy move.
Point is, I think whatever they choose to put out is a sure seller. People are going to buy it just to have the latest shiny new thing at the very least.

Stronginthearm
02-06-2010, 06:23
ok guys just because they are in the fluff doesn't mean they will be a legal army, they go be like the halfings, they exist but most people dont care, they dont have to be a playable army, they just end up existing somewhere doing wierd stuff with slaves and armor

Satan
02-06-2010, 07:11
and these 3 armies are not sure sellers like say, O&Gs or Empire.

Or Ogre Kingdoms?


Point is, I think whatever they choose to put out is a sure seller.

Like Ogre Kingdoms? Not what I hear.

I'll never understand why they didn't go with Chaos Dwarf or a previously existing army instead of releasing the ogres. A DoW-army would've made the most sense from a sales perspective. Likewise I'm not able to grasp why they'd cut ogres, dragon ogres and trolls from the beasts list.

Making fewer people purchase less of the available miniatures always seems like a smart move, don't it?

Since Chaos Dwarves would currently require an entirely new model range I can't see it happening, even though that's pretty much the option I voted for. WHat about the "entirely new"-army rumour for WFB from a while back? I can see that ball getting dropped fast when the OK turned out below expectations.

Bladelord
02-06-2010, 07:24
My guess is that CD will be removed from 'legal' play in 8th, then brought in as a full race in 9th, with plastic regiments etc once Forge World have done all the hard work redesigning them.

I think if the CD are mentioned in the rules section at all it will be a very good sign that at some point in the next 4 years they will have a stand alone FW list.

I have thoughts in this direction too. But since I'm still holding my thumbs for plastic greatcoats (please GW, make DKoK plastic! after FW's DKoK success, it seem a somewhat slim chance. However, Chaos Dwarfs was once - and not so long ago - an army amongst the others. There are quite some fans of them with old armies or even converted new ones, and the Hellcannon can still be interpreted as a promise of things to come. Parts of their army list rest upon the Orcs & Goblins model range (and possibly the Ogre Kingdoms' if gnoblars are added), and with a cheap metal bitz pack to mark the greenskins out as slaves that part is checked.

In other words: I agree, I think they'll arrive in 9th edition. FW will probably prove them popular, especially since their redesign (based upon the Hellcannon crew, but expanded in exotic ways) might be great to boot.

Scythe
02-06-2010, 08:41
I'll never understand why they didn't go with Chaos Dwarf or a previously existing army instead of releasing the ogres.

For the same reason they didn't release Squats but made Tau. That an army was there first doesn't mean it will be more popular, is better or sell more models. Chaos Dwarfs didn't sell enough models when they were supported in the 90s, hence they were set on hold, and GW tried another army instead.

Bloodknight
02-06-2010, 08:55
For the same reason they didn't release Squats but made Tau

Wasn't it Jervis who said they killed off the Squats because they didn't know what to do with them? Their sales were in the same region as the other armies, they just had problems with the concept.

Dai-Mongar
02-06-2010, 15:28
Wasn't it Jervis who said they killed off the Squats because they didn't know what to do with them? Their sales were in the same region as the other armies, they just had problems with the concept.

Indeed. They ended up with two different army styles in 40K and Epic, plus the name "Squats" couldn't be taken seriously.

DeeKay
02-06-2010, 15:33
Don't think they will be killed off, but they probably won't get an official army list. CD's will probably be used as a fluff tool like Cathay. That's my opinion.

With regards,
Dan.

Gekiganger
02-06-2010, 17:26
Wasn't it Jervis who said they killed off the Squats because they didn't know what to do with them? Their sales were in the same region as the other armies, they just had problems with the concept.

That was my understanding of the situation, they ported dwarves into 40k but that was about it. They couldn't think of a way to make them 'unique' and anything more than 'dwarves in space'.

Urgat
02-06-2010, 17:40
I wonder if they tried very hard though.

LaughinGremlin
02-06-2010, 20:31
In short, "no." If squats were more incorporated into the fluff and had updated models and lists as good as blood angels, I think they would have been fine. The dwarfs of the future could have been the space wolves for example, if they chose to do that, but alas, there is yet ANOTHER human faction of space marine. How droll.

CD got one model range which was an older-outdated style immediately after they were made, in my opnion. Like the Rocky Horror picture show, some people still love that range of mini, but most think, "AGH!!!! Too goofy!"

If CD had a serious model update (i.e. New Dark Elves (cold one knights, executioners, black guard) of 6th edition *drool*, and GW created a Rule Book that was written from the point of view of the CD instead of always the Empire, then CD would be better marketed and deemed necessary to the players. Heck, even if in the new rule book, the writers gave different sections to different nations:

Empire could still have the spell list / magic rules / magic items section. The little side stories and pictures of mages could be similar to what they are now.
Dwarfs could have the shooting / artillery section. Make it a dwarfy theme instead of Empire.
High Elves could be the narrators for the introduction which states how Warhammer Fantasy Battles is set in a grungy world that isn't qualified to touch the hem of their garments, play fairly, etc.
Skaven themes can color the combat system,
Dark Elves can take the movement section, and the skirmishers and fast cavalry rules
Undead can have the psychology section.
General chaos god themes for something I'm sure I've left out, and
I guess CD can have the index / appendix in the back of the book... ...but you get my point.;)

Like 6th edition (or was it 5th?), Bretonnia and Wood Elves will get the last two books in 8th edition, because that's the way of the world.
*Now I'm just being silly*
(Yes, I know I haven't listed all armies.):cheese:! (Jeez!)

Grimstonefire
02-06-2010, 23:47
I was told earlier from someone who has read the small book (twice), that chaos dwarfs are not in the rules part.

This may or may not mean that they could release a CD list at some point in the next 4 years. As long as they stick within the existing rules there's no reasons from a rules POV they couldn't release them.

So the question now is whether they have more than a sentence in the fluff part...

billytheid
03-06-2010, 02:34
Be realistic... the only thing you can be sure of from 8th edition is that you will have to buy more stuff to make your armies legal again. Remember the curse of the Beastmen book...

Scythe
03-06-2010, 06:16
Wasn't it Jervis who said they killed off the Squats because they didn't know what to do with them? Their sales were in the same region as the other armies, they just had problems with the concept.

I might have worded that wrong. GW simply believed more in the ability to sell a new concept as they did in reworking an old one. Although difficult to judge properly, I think it payed off in case of Tau, as they are one of the more popular second row armies (I think above Necrons, Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters & Sisters at the moment), it payed off. Of course, we will never know how a redesigned Squat army might have done, but I don't think GW is dissatisfied with the results.

But that's 40k of course. Would a redesigned Chaos Dwarf book have been more popular than Ogre Kingdoms? I don't know, but GW didn't think so at least, so we have an Ogres book, and not a Chaos Dwarf one.

billytheid
03-06-2010, 06:29
People already spent money on Chaos Dwarf stuff... Ogres were a new cash cow (curse of the Beastmen) for them to milk. Simply put, profit maximization is the key. Throw all the hyperbole about game balance and conceptualization of the 'warhammer world' out the window. We all know it has nothing to do with the re-release of armies and rule books.

Wait and see... rules will change to make massed ranks more important... having more troops on the board to secure areas will become a major asset... 2000pt battles will become small, it will be all about 3000pts next. Money, money, money people... that's the focus here.

Oh, and they will remove the Chaos Dwarf army from legal gaming... there's a bunch of gamers there who can buy Ogres.

Satan
03-06-2010, 07:02
But that's 40k of course. Would a redesigned Chaos Dwarf book have been more popular than Ogre Kingdoms? I don't know, but GW didn't think so at least, so we have an Ogres book, and not a Chaos Dwarf one.

From what I hear, Ogres didn't perform particularly well at all. Would love for someone to confirm or denounce this.

Scythe
03-06-2010, 07:22
Money, money, money people... that's the focus here.


Curse GW for trying to make money! How dare they!

;)


From what I hear, Ogres didn't perform particularly well at all. Would love for someone to confirm or denounce this.

No idea, but we cannot compare them to any Chaos Dwarf sales in the same period, so we will never know wether Chaos Dwarfs would have been more succesfull, or even worse.

CaptainFaramir
03-06-2010, 07:29
I would agree with that as a principle. Ogres were and are a very different way of gaming to that previously seen. It wasn't possible to run all minotaur lists then (I believe, could be wrong) so an army consisting fully of 40mm base models was very very novel.

Ogres are a slow-burn army in that respect. Beyond the initial burst of enthusiasm for something different they are a very hard army to get to grips with. An elf player can become an empire player by swapping spears for swords, bolt throwers for cannons, and reavers for pistoliers. Different models, different individual skills, same basic idea. Ogres on the other hand, require a different appreciation of the game and several games even to understand the new tactical challenges (kills over static, MSU over blocks, no warmachines - other than the sCRAPlauncher, no cavalry, import of impact, etc., etc.)

In this respect I imagine that OK would never have attained a peak of enthusiasm that the launch of a brand new army should have done, simply because they were so difficult for the target audience *cough* kids *cough* to get to grips with easily.

I myself never liked OK myself until a guy walked over my army at a tournament simply because I wholly underestimated OK and didn't understand them. I have a new appreciation for them and have always wanted a better army book to start them mself (especially give the current Maneater thread in the Plogs).

Back OT: Chaos Dwarfs will (probably) get a new range from forge world. The success of those sales will almost certainly dictate the decision to give them a new army book and the commercial support they need. THAT SAID I think that the Warhammer World needs another "army of order" or "good" or "boring", whatever, so I think we'll see the launch of one of those (another!) new armies first.

Urgat
03-06-2010, 07:36
I was told earlier from someone who has read the small book (twice), that chaos dwarfs are not in the rules part.

This may or may not mean that they could release a CD list at some point in the next 4 years. As long as they stick within the existing rules there's no reasons from a rules POV they couldn't release them.

If they've been removed from the list, I'm afraid there's all reasons to be pessimistic, sadly :(


I would agree with that as a principle. Ogres were and are a very different way of gaming to that previously seen. It wasn't possible to run all minotaur lists then (I believe, could be wrong) so an army consisting fully of 40mm base models was very very novel.

Minautors counted as core if your general was a doombull in 6th ed. I think OK suffer from how the way they play doesn't fit at all with the imagery they convey. If you talk about an ogre army to anybody familiar with fantasy stuff, they'll probably imagine a very brutal and straightforward army, which is about the opposite to how ogres actually play in fantasy.

TheMaster
03-06-2010, 11:18
I'm reading my BFSP book now. There is a list for Chaos dwarfs on the very last page before the index with a note saying that they do not have an official army book at time of print. On page 125 to be exact.

ChrisIronBrow
03-06-2010, 17:12
Curse GW for trying to make money! How dare they!

;)


_snip_

I think the difference is that good companies make money by selling products that people want to buy. Bad companies make cosmetic changes to there products in order to fool it's existing customers into buying the same thing but packaged differently. GW has not seemed to be interested in producing a quality product in a while. They seem to just shuffle things around in the hope that existing customers are willing to make more purchases to continue playing.



I doubt that CD will be back. Not for a long long time.

billytheid
03-06-2010, 21:57
I think the difference is that good companies make money by selling products that people want to buy. Bad companies make cosmetic changes to there products in order to fool it's existing customers into buying the same thing but packaged differently. GW has not seemed to be interested in producing a quality product in a while. They seem to just shuffle things around in the hope that existing customers are willing to make more purchases to continue playing.



I doubt that CD will be back. Not for a long long time.

This. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a witch.

NagashTheSorcerer
04-06-2010, 01:49
Personally, I think they will keep their status a non-supported, but legal army. They won't get new models (maybe FW), they won't get a new army book (even in 4th/5th they never had a true army book, just a white dwarf issue that became their de facto army book) but they will retain a fully tournament playable armylist. Honestly, I don't see why people think it is such a big deal for Games Workshop to do a bare-bones pdf army list. They did it for the last couple editions, I don't see why 8th would be so special. And the CD's presence or absence in the fluff or stats sections of the rule book would not be an indicator of their future status. After all, in the 6th ed core book, they were not mentioned at all; not in the fluff, not in the stats appendix, nowhere. Yet they still appeared in Ravening Hordes.....

Given the massive outcry that followed the death of the Squats back in the mid '90s, it is highly unlikely that GW will make the Chaos Dwarfs illegal. They have repeatedly said that they will not drop any of the current armies. Dark Eldar are still around and kickin' in 40k, and they have not had an update in 12 years! And honestly, even though it can be frustrating for your army not to be updated, most of the hard core players really only care about still being able to play their armies in tournaments and official GW stores. That makes Chaos Dwarf players low maintenance for GW to support, since all they have to do is say "here is your army list for official play". No need to print a full scale production run of new army books, no need to spend thousands of dollars on molds and materials for new minis. Just let them bring their models that they paid for to the table to play, and that is all it takes to keep them happy. It costs GW nothing other then taking the time to update the army list to keep them in the game, and that time is minimal since it's not a full-on army launch event. And it keeps those Chaos Dwarf players in the game and hobby, helping GW's customer retention rate (and yes, CD players do still count as customers; when your army hasn't gotten any new models in over 15 years, that gives you ample time and money to start other armies).

Bottom line, GW would only cut the Chaos Dwarfs out of the game if they actually gained something from it, and they wouldn't, all they would do is be losing more fans. Given the current economic climate, and increased competition from Privateer Press and others, I doubt GW would do such a thing. And considering all the grief they got from axing the squats, I doubt they want to repeat that episode. Popular or not, removing an army from the game is a massive upset to the current fanbase, and GW has enough to worry about as is. The only reason Squats haven't been brought back, despite the fan outcry, is because once GW went through all the trouble and pain of killing them off, and then got the fans to grudgingly accept it, they don't want to open that issue again; and the fact they they would even consider the possibility of a new Dwarf race for 40k (the Demiurge) shows that all that whining from angry Squat players has even made GW second guess one of the hardest decisions they ever made. So in conclusion, while I am not going to hold my breath for a new CD army book or new CD models, I don't see any valid reason for them not to be legal to play.

Alric
04-06-2010, 02:15
People already spent money on Chaos Dwarf stuff... Ogres were a new cash cow (curse of the Beastmen) for them to milk. Simply put, profit maximization is the key. Throw all the hyperbole about game balance and conceptualization of the 'warhammer world' out the window. We all know it has nothing to do with the re-release of armies and rule books.

Wait and see... rules will change to make massed ranks more important... having more troops on the board to secure areas will become a major asset... 2000pt battles will become small, it will be all about 3000pts next. Money, money, money people... that's the focus here.

Oh, and they will remove the Chaos Dwarf army from legal gaming... there's a bunch of gamers there who can buy Ogres.

I agree, why risk a new model line on an entire army that you know fans of that army already have models for (conversions included), also those same fans are divided over how they think the new models should look.

IMO the CD hellcannon model for the chaos army is as a strong indication of the future of chaos dwarfs and is a less risky option for GW as well.

It would be fantastic if the CD's appeared in 8th (just out of GW appreciation for the fans) but I seriously doubt they will.

Scythe
04-06-2010, 09:52
I think the difference is that good companies make money by selling products that people want to buy. Bad companies make cosmetic changes to there products in order to fool it's existing customers into buying the same thing but packaged differently. GW has not seemed to be interested in producing a quality product in a while. They seem to just shuffle things around in the hope that existing customers are willing to make more purchases to continue playing.


Model wise, I can't say I agree. While there are a few rotten apples here and there, model quality has only increased over years, and there is an excellent range of models available and still being added on.

Now, the problems with GW do not lie in the models. First, it lies in pricing issues, as prices (imho) increased in a line not parallel with quality increase. Second are rules based issues. Apart from global inconsistencies, old rulesets still too rooted in foundations created over 20 years ago, and balance issues, scale increasing is also an issue, as more and more models are required to play a game of similar size. This makes starting the hobby more and more expensive, which logically decreases the amount of new players, and the long-term health of the game and company.

But we are drifting a bit of topic. There are some treads in GW general discussion which dive a lot deeper into this.

edit:

IMO the CD hellcannon model for the chaos army is as a strong indication of the future of chaos dwarfs and is a less risky option for GW as well.

You realize that the hellcannon model is already 6 years old, do you? It has been a long time since that release.