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View Full Version : Valkyrie and derivatives - Pure aircraft?



Minister
31-05-2010, 07:47
I've been pondering the Valkyrie (and Vulture, and Vendetta, and Sky Talon) with an eye towards using them as part of a Rogue Trader's fleet in an RPG. One thing that has been bothering me is the conflicting information on their low-orbit operations capability, or lack thereof.

Basically, are they capable of insertion from low orbit in the initial phase of a full assault, or as the entirety of a raiding insertion, or are they pure atmospheric craft requiring a dirtside base to fly from?

MagosHereticus
31-05-2010, 08:31
in IA 4 i believe the D99 deploy from low orbit in their valkyries

AndrewGPaul
31-05-2010, 08:53
IA vol 1: "It is an atmospheric aircraft and cannot operate in the vacuum of space, although it can be sealed against hostile environments".

The cargo bay is airtight, but it has air-breathing engines. It doesn't have the auxiliary rocket booster of the Lighting or Thunderbolt, or the dual-mode engines of a Thunderhawk or Marauder.

I can't see anything in IA vol 4 saying Detachment 99 deployed directly from the transport; it just goes from saying they are undertaking preparations for a landing, to being on the ground. They probably used normal landing craft, and ferried their aircraft down in those.

Lord Damocles
31-05-2010, 10:53
Apparently Redemption Corps features a Valkyrie varient which is void capable:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259991
(posts 1 and 5).

Idaan
31-05-2010, 16:36
The Thunderbolts and Lightnings can be dropped from low orbit, but can't reach orbit again. Valkyries are atmospheric only. The Marauders can admittedly operate in space and have been used as ship-to-ship bombers by the IN, but to me it makes little sense: they only have jet engines and even the Fury interceptors are larger than them.

Vaulkhar
31-05-2010, 17:25
Valkyries and Vendettas are explicitly atmosphere only. I think IA1 lists their ceiling, but I don't have it to hand. Even then, they could be dropped from above their ceiling, provided either that there was enough oxygen to run the engines on at least tick-over power when the launched or the pilots had no particular objection to trying a midair start of the engines.

The Spectre-class in Redemption Corps is so different to a normal Valk that I'm not sure it can really be called a variant. Off the top of my head:

- Explicitly void capable.
- Carries 4 heavy bolters rather than 2
- has a cargo bay capable of carrying a Centaur, plus a commando team
- cockpit is side-by-side and connects to the cargo bay

AndrewGPaul
31-05-2010, 21:23
The Thunderbolts and Lightnings can be dropped from low orbit, but can't reach orbit again. Valkyries are atmospheric only. The Marauders can admittedly operate in space and have been used as ship-to-ship bombers by the IN, but to me it makes little sense: they only have jet engines and even the Fury interceptors are larger than them.

Clearly, if they operate in space, then either;

the spacegoing versions have different engines, or they can be swapped out easily*

or, the engines are dual-mode, and are not simply jet engines.

*I've also seen it claimed that at least one type of spacegoing Marauder is substantially larger than the one depicted by Forgeworld (from the art accompanying the short story in an issue of Inferno!). Take that as you will.

In any case, I think they're only used when there are no Starhawks handy.

N0-1_H3r3
31-05-2010, 21:40
Clearly, if they operate in space, then either;

the spacegoing versions have different engines, or they can be swapped out easily*

or, the engines are dual-mode, and are not simply jet engines.

Or, multiple engines for different roles.

That said, given the diversity of worlds the Imperium fights over, it makes sense that multi-role engines or easily-changeable engines may be extremely useful - there'll be worlds where conventional jets can't function properly due to atmospheric density or composition, afterall.

MagosHereticus
01-06-2010, 04:51
IA vol 1: "It is an atmospheric aircraft and cannot operate in the vacuum of space, although it can be sealed against hostile environments".

The cargo bay is airtight, but it has air-breathing engines. It doesn't have the auxiliary rocket booster of the Lighting or Thunderbolt, or the dual-mode engines of a Thunderhawk or Marauder.

I can't see anything in IA vol 4 saying Detachment 99 deployed directly from the transport; it just goes from saying they are undertaking preparations for a landing, to being on the ground. They probably used normal landing craft, and ferried their aircraft down in those.

it's possible that low orbit could conceivably overlap with the Valkyries operational ceiling, meaning that they might be able to perform direct insertions

it would be interesting to know some characteristics of imperial carrier ships, like how low they can operate and for how long, and how dangerous such a manoeuvre would be

eclipsed
01-06-2010, 06:21
Just because they can seal up doesnt mean they can operate at a high ceiling. I doubt with large swooped wings like that the valkyrie could even reach the height of most airliners. Even dropping one from a low orbit would not only most likely burn those huge wings off from friction but also would probably crumple the airframe as it attempted to slow from such a descent.

I just imagine them as fast helicopters.

Sai-Lauren
01-06-2010, 10:43
This came up a couple of months back (I think someone wanted to use one for their Marines as a dropship) - the Valkyrie doesn't have the Thunderhawk's melta resistance rule, which is described as being a property of the re-entry shielding, so no, no interface capability.

Although I can't remember if the Aquila and Arvus do as well.

I remember we had a nice little discussion about whether they're generally air launched from specialised drop vessels or brought down to the ground. :)

N0-1_H3r3
01-06-2010, 11:11
This came up a couple of months back (I think someone wanted to use one for their Marines as a dropship) - the Valkyrie doesn't have the Thunderhawk's melta resistance rule, which is described as being a property of the re-entry shielding, so no, no interface capability.

Although I can't remember if the Aquila and Arvus do as well.
They don't, and nor do the Thunderbolt or Lightning (both of which have limited orbital capability, normally for deployment to and from an orbiting carrier).

MagosHereticus
01-06-2010, 11:12
This came up a couple of months back (I think someone wanted to use one for their Marines as a dropship) - the Valkyrie doesn't have the Thunderhawk's melta resistance rule, which is described as being a property of the re-entry shielding, so no, no interface capability.

Although I can't remember if the Aquila and Arvus do as well.


they dont

also, thunderhawks look like they have jet engines, i take this as rule of cool on the model design over real world physics :confused:


I remember we had a nice little discussion about whether they're generally air launched from specialised drop vessels or brought down to the ground. :)

the dictator class cruiser unit entry describes it as being originally designed to facilitate the deployment of large amounts of atmospheric flyers into low orbit

take from that what you will ;)

MagosHereticus
01-06-2010, 11:38
Just because they can seal up doesnt mean they can operate at a high ceiling. I doubt with large swooped wings like that the valkyrie could even reach the height of most airliners. Even dropping one from a low orbit would not only most likely burn those huge wings off from friction but also would probably crumple the airframe as it attempted to slow from such a descent.

I just imagine them as fast helicopters.

they can fly up to 13km, the atmosphere might be thin enough at that altitude on earth facsimiles for carrier vessels to hold station long enough for atmospheric insertions

(admittedly a terrible idea if the enemy has any decent anti-ship weapons, i'd imagine it could be extremely dangerous to take a capital ship in that low)

RCgothic
01-06-2010, 11:43
Also see the cover of codex IG for destroyer-sized vessels hanging in atmospheric flight.

The Lightning and Thunderbolt are capable of deploying from orbit and reaching it again with their rocket motors, whilst the Thunderhawk and Marauder clearly have dual-mode engines. (As does the Lightning actually, as it keeps cropping up in space battle fluff.)

Combined with low-altitude capabilities of the carrier craft, orbital recovery certainly isn't a problem for most atmospheric aircraft. The reason Thunderhawks and Drop pods need ceramite shielding is because of their more aggressive re-entry profiles, as required by marines going for insertion.

Burnthem
01-06-2010, 11:59
The reason Thunderhawks and Drop pods need ceramite shielding is because of their more aggressive re-entry profiles, as required by marines going for insertion.

QFT. There is a vast difference between the 'reach the ground as hard and as fast as possible' method used by Drop Pods and arguably Thunderhawks, and the probably more sedate entry used by Lightnings/Thunderbolts etc. It may even be possible that an ablative layer is bolted/glued/sprayed(?) onto Thunderbolts et all before atmospheric entry to give a one use protective shell just in case.

As for Valkyries i've always understood them to be purely atmospheric craft, as others have mentioned this is stated in IA Vol.1. Although the idea of a Navy dropship swooping low into the atmosphere and releasing hordes of Valkyries and Vultures into the sky does seem appropriately OTT for the Imperium. Think of the Galactica dropping into New Caprica and launching Vipers and you get the idea. Cool as a polar bear on pluto. :)