PDA

View Full Version : The Lady of Lake Lore.



dragonet111
31-05-2010, 12:45
Hi Guys.

With the new edition all the armybooks are going to be redone (I know it's going to take some time:D).
For the next Bretonnian armybook do you think a magic lore for the Lady of the Lake is a good idea.

IMO yes, I would like something more Bretonnian and less made in Empire magic.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 12:56
By fluff, they should have their own lore since the "daughters brought to the Imperial Colleges" deal has been retconned with "taken away by the Fey Enchantress" in 6th ed (she's a busy one, the Fey Enchantress...). But the way GW handles lores makes no sense whatsoever (why do LM and HE use the lores when they should have access to High Magic?), so no way it's going to happen. They should get back to 5th ed fluff, at least it's consistent with the rules.

darkstar
31-05-2010, 13:14
No. New lores for the sake of it aren't a good thing. It makes sense that the Fay Enchantress, rumoured strongly to be Wood Elf queen Ariel, would teach the noble daughters of Brettonia the same lores as the Wood Elves know, but not go so far as to grant mastery over the forest of Athel Loren. i.e. they should have access to life and beasts.

Elannion
31-05-2010, 14:43
I always thought fluff wise the brets might have 3 magical classes, those that were educated by the fey, those that didn't have that oppertunity (perhaps because they were not picked, or because they were men or whatever) that payed to get educated in the empire and the peasants who were isolated from the nobles magic and developed their own sort of witchcraft (the sort of wise old crone who lives in the village thing).

I don't see personally why they shouldn't have their own law, i think rules wise and army wise it is quite nice for each army to have their own variations on things its part of what gives them character.

Alathir
31-05-2010, 15:11
By fluff, they should have their own lore since the "daughters brought to the Imperial Colleges" deal has been retconned with "taken away by the Fey Enchantress" in 6th ed (she's a busy one, the Fey Enchantress...). But the way GW handles lores makes no sense whatsoever (why do LM and HE use the lores when they should have access to High Magic?), so no way it's going to happen. They should get back to 5th ed fluff, at least it's consistent with the rules.

The current book still notes that some of the children are sent to the Imperial Colleges; so it hasn't been retconned completely.

In regards to the OP; No, I don't think Bretonnia needs their own lore. The way I see it; the less individual lores the better otherwise the 8 lores will just become known as Imperial magic! For the record however; I do think the Slann should have access to their own magic list.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 15:39
otherwise the 8 lores will just become known as Imperial magic!

To be honest that's exactly what they are.

Artinam
31-05-2010, 15:42
Id rather see the Bretonnians have access to more types of Lores.

NightAngel
31-05-2010, 16:02
It seems everyone is geting their own lore these days.

Beastmen have the lore of the wild. WEs have the lore of AL. HEs have high magic. DEs have dark magic. Then there are the demon lores and the WoC lores. Ogre gut magic even has its own miscast table. VCs have their own lore to. How could I forget orc magic as well. Tks also have a kind of magic all of there own.

IMO army lores are fine if they fit the background but never sould you have a lore for the sake of having a lore.

Tarliyn
31-05-2010, 16:23
If you can tell me a way that the lore would function differently than the current 8 lores than i could get behind the idea and by functioning differently I don't just mean throw together a list of basically currently exisiting spells with different names that would benefit brets.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 16:39
It seems everyone is geting their own lore these days.

These days? Before 6th ed, about everybody had their own lore. If anything, they've been toned down.

Seabo
31-05-2010, 17:09
Beasts and Life do kinda fit the theme of the Brets IMO.
What else would you do for tons of earthy type serfs and a few million horses....

Malorian
31-05-2010, 17:11
although it would be cool I think the classic ones are enough.

NightAngel
31-05-2010, 18:36
These days? Before 6th ed, about everybody had their own lore. If anything, they've been toned down.

Oh now see I didn't know that haven' been playing Warhammer for that long you see. sorry about that. ;)

Sir_Glonojad
31-05-2010, 19:49
Being a Bretonnian player with a 100% victory ratio in 2009* ;) I'd rather not see a yet another lore. I think that the current deal is OK as far as the background and actual magic power goes.

*- that's calculated for a total of 1 battles ...

Urgat
31-05-2010, 21:57
Well, being an regular opponent to bretonians, afaik, my opinion (based 100% on only one opponent ;)) is that they actually don't really care what lore they can use, since they never manage to cast spells and mostly use their damsels for the MR :p

Gork or Possibly Mork
31-05-2010, 22:12
(why do LM and HE use the lores when they should have access to High Magic?), .

I thought HE were taught the 8 basic lores by the Slann and and passed that on to humans and high magic is strictly an Elven thing that they created on there own by basically combining the basic lores together as one. I recall Slann more into mastery as opposed to being well rounded or something like that.

I specifically remember reading something like that^^ somewhere might have been LM 7ed. book not sure.

Sort of like in martial arts it's better to have mastered a handful of techniques than know a thousand and suck at them all:D

dragonet111
31-05-2010, 22:13
Well that true:D, in 2000 points games I only have 3 power dice. but with a nice custom magic lore I could change my mind. Maybe the Lady lore is not necessary because/thanks to the new edition and the possible revamp of the magic lore I will have the magic I wish for my Bretonnian.

DukeBorric
31-05-2010, 22:26
I thought HE were taught the 8 basic lores by the Slann and and passed that on to humans and high magic is strictly an Elven thing that they created on there own by basically combining the basic lores together as one. I recall Slann more into mastery as opposed to being well rounded or something like that.

I specifically remember reading something like that^^ somewhere might have been LM 7ed. book not sure.

Sort of like in martial arts it's better to have mastered a handful of techniques than know a thousand and suck at them all:D

pretty sure that high magic is 'pure' magic for want of a better word and the colours are splitting of magic as it enters the mortal realm. Dark magic occurs when magic stagnates and loses its vitality hence why its all death and darkness. Thats from the liber chaotica.

oh and I voted no there's enough as it is IMO although i do miss the cards you got when it was all in 1 box back in 4th especially the magic items shame they got rid of that much more fun.

dragonet111
31-05-2010, 22:38
pretty sure that high magic is 'pure' magic for want of a better word and the colours are splitting of magic as it enters the mortal realm. Dark magic occurs when magic stagnates and loses its vitality hence why its all death and darkness. Thats from the liber chaotica.

oh and I voted no there's enough as it is IMO although i do miss the cards you got when it was all in 1 box back in 4th especially the magic items shame they got rid of that much more fun.

Oh yes I remember that time. I can't say I miss it. It was fun, really really fun but some spells were so over powered like the moving hill spell of High magic or the most powerful spell of Tzeentch that make your taking a Toughness check with 2 dice (adding the results) and if you lose you were dead:evilgrin:

I prefer the magic now.

Urgat
31-05-2010, 22:38
I thought HE were taught the 8 basic lores by the Slann and and passed that on to humans and high magic is strictly an Elven thing that they created on there own by basically combining the basic lores together as one. I recall Slann more into mastery as opposed to being well rounded or something like that.

Nah, if I remember correctly, slaans taught high magic to the elves, then Teclis tried to taught it as is to humans, but human wizards were either not gifted enough or their lifespan was too short to master it, so he had to divide High magic into the 8 lores (the 8 winds), os humans could at least master one aspect of magic. So it's basically the other way around, he took the base (High or white if I'm not mistaken) and went to the trouble of separating all the colours for them to be manageable by humans.

Zaonite
31-05-2010, 23:39
Our own lore specifically designed for the lance and the fluff of Bretonnia would be very, very nice. But access to more lores would be nice too.

If not our own lore I would like to see Beasts, Life, Heavens and Light available to us.

WarmbloodedLizard
01-06-2010, 00:00
No. New lores for the sake of it aren't a good thing. It makes sense that the Fay Enchantress, rumoured strongly to be Wood Elf queen Ariel, would teach the noble daughters of Brettonia the same lores as the Wood Elves know, but not go so far as to grant mastery over the forest of Athel Loren. i.e. they should have access to life and beasts.

that. Bretonnia isn't a magical people, they have some ability, but not that much.

SteelTitan
01-06-2010, 00:10
Im in for no lore for brets. Like said before, im not a big fan of each race having their own lore. I see the 8 lores as 'common lores', not as empire lores. Some races just need an own lore, like Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Orcs&Goblins, but many others could do without; empire, bret, beastmen, warriors of chaos, wood elves, even lizardmen. Giving each/most races their own lore makes the 8 lores a bit redundant which i think is a real shame. It would be fun to see more use out of the 8 lores...and every now and then come across a 'special' own lore.

It would make sense for LM to have their own lore, based on something more 'worldy-fundamental' (considering slann shape the world)...i think its called geomancy...it would be awesome but not strictly necessary. But if everyone gets their own lore anyway, throw in one for LM as well.

Personally I think brets and empire should have their own lore least...i mean, they're just 'Umies trying to grasp something that other races understand naturally...

Fall from grace
01-06-2010, 00:42
I don't think they should get a new lore as the main strengths of the Bretonnian's are mounted cavalry in various forms.

Bretonnian fluff is all about great heroes battling insurmountable odds, with a lance and a sword whilst mounted on horseback, not powerful magic users blasting them with specialised spells.

I think giving them they're own special lore would upset the balance of the army, taking away from the combat element which is the basis of the Bretonnians.

R-Love
01-06-2010, 22:48
Nah, if I remember correctly, slaans taught high magic to the elves, then Teclis tried to taught it as is to humans, but human wizards were either not gifted enough or their lifespan was too short to master it, so he had to divide High magic into the 8 lores (the 8 winds), os humans could at least master one aspect of magic. So it's basically the other way around, he took the base (High or white if I'm not mistaken) and went to the trouble of separating all the colours for them to be manageable by humans.

I believe it is mentioned that the 8 Lores are taught to High Elf Mages before they can study High magic (mastering on Lore before moving to the next), So it does make sense background-wise that the High Elves would be able to use a single Wind, they were taught it as children, High magic just tends to be more powerful. Theoretically, if a human lived long enough, he could not only learn multiple lores, but High Magic as well, they just die to quickly. Slann are another matter entirely, but we don't have time to start that here.

I agree though Brets shouldn't get their own lore, they're not that magic-centric. I forget which lores they can use (Life and Beasts, with Heavens for Lords?), but I know they are more subtle ones, which fits them better. You could make an army specific lore like that, but I personally think we have to many unique lores anyways, and Bretonnia isn't really magical centric

Heimagoblin
01-06-2010, 23:29
It'd be fun. Would have to be centered rouund buffing the lance formations such as the wolf hunts or a spell that granted +1 attack on the charge. It might also encourage a different build and i'm always in favour of that. If it makes the game more fun I really don't care if it contradicts the fluff.

Charistoph
02-06-2010, 01:30
If they did it would probably just end up being a mixture of Beasts, Light, and Life, maybe with a sprinkling of Heavens. Also, much like the Wood Elves, would not be powerful on its own, but really nasty when you consider that it would be a support magic for knights with the Lance Formation.

LaughinGremlin
02-06-2010, 02:06
The Empire can export magic lore just as Bretonnia exports wine and cheese. I understand that Bretonnians may be upset because they must import all of their shirts from south east Asia, but one must embrace the global integration at times.

If the Imperial Colleges didn't open their doors to outsiders for money (heck, they don't even let in their own halflings), then the Estalians wouldn't have any magic at all.

Elven national security would be threatened if they disclosed magical knowledge to humans. Why would the wood elves give the humans their national - identity: magic and archery?
The lady of the lake only knows a fraction of what the Imperial mages know (jade and celestial?), and she's sexist. (No male "damsels" of course) How would the chick that lives below a ripply current be able to gaze into the stars well/often anyway? She's further from the heavens than almost anyone. Those "damsels" must have been exchange students in the Empire, and they give the Lady more credit than she deserves.

Moral: Be grateful for your various multitudes of well-made shirts from south east Asia -- I mean, Imperial Colleges of Magic

Kuja
02-06-2010, 02:34
What about Prophetess of the Lady having access to the Lore of Athel Loren too, and beign able to raide an unicorn, while damsels only having access to the Lore of Heavens, beasts and life?. That would be awesome.

P.D: sorry for my english... :p

ooglatjama
02-06-2010, 03:02
Unrelated, but I love rulebook lores. A rulebook lore (especially the Athel Loren one) is so devastating when I steal it and use it against its owner army with my Slaanesh Sorc with Golden Eye.

Urgat
02-06-2010, 08:26
How do you feel when you steal a little waaagh lore? :p

Scythe
02-06-2010, 10:42
These days? Before 6th ed, about everybody had their own lore. If anything, they've been toned down.

Not true. There were tons of generic lores back then, but quite a few 'race specific' lores were shared between multiple armies. Lizardmen had access to High Magic, Vampires and Chaos had access to Dark Magic, and so on. What's more, Chaos had just 3 lores, not 7 as currently.

Wurrzog da Orcy Tomb King
02-06-2010, 10:45
If Lizardmen can't have 'Lore of the Old Ones/Geomancy' then why should Brets who are mere humans have a lore of their own.

WOC don't count as mere humans by the way.

LaughinGremlin
02-06-2010, 21:39
Are WOC mere demons? I'm just messin' with ya.
I agree with Wurrzog. The humans have tapped into the same winds of magic that lizzies, elves, old ones or whoever can tap into, and there is only so much that any spell caster can do with them. Besides that, there are only so many ways to outright destroy troops, move troops, enhance troops, or move mountains without breaking the basic game.

Tymell
02-06-2010, 22:01
I vote no.

When the core lores came about I really liked them and the idea of most armies choosing from them. But as time went on everyone and their little dog got their own lore, and they kind of lost meaning.

In my opinion only Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Chaos and Skaven (and -maybe- Orcs & Goblins) should have their own lores.

Just my take.

Malorian
02-06-2010, 22:04
In my opinion only Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Chaos and Skaven (and -maybe- Orcs & Goblins) should have their own lores.

Same list but add gut magic.


Really no need for each of the elves and the beastmen to have their own lore.

Tymell
02-06-2010, 22:09
Same list but add gut magic.

Yeah, I was kinda debating that one in my mind, even got out my Ogre Kingdoms book to ponder. I feel they should have their own special way of using magic at least, even if not a lore.

Urgat
02-06-2010, 23:20
Not true. There were tons of generic lores back then, but quite a few 'race specific' lores were shared between multiple armies. Lizardmen had access to High Magic, Vampires and Chaos had access to Dark Magic, and so on. What's more, Chaos had just 3 lores, not 7 as currently.

Two armies sharing a lore is vastly different than 8 lores shared by most of the armies. Heck even Chaos dwarves had their own lore. As for chaos, why of course they only had three lores, they also only had only one book.
Anyway, my opinion is based on fluff, and on fluff, the ones that should have access to the 8 lores are the ones that would have access to the colleges themselves, and nobody else. back in 5th, the lores were distributed among armies based on logic. Just an exemple, it's logical that undead had access to black magic, since necromancers become necromancers after fiddling with black magic, necromancy is a derivative from black magic.
Besides it's boring when everybody got the same spells. It would be so exciting if my goblin shamans casted a pit of shades or a fireball >>. So I welcome back army specific lores (not saying that brets should get one, though it would be fun to give amber wizards to brets). I guess my opinion is that the lores should be kicked out of the BRB and put in the Empire book, and they'd have to choose e bright wizard or a celestial wizard or whatever in their list, just like a chaos player has to choose tzeench sorcerer or a slaanesh sorcerer, it's not like each army has a full complement of wizards to choose from before each battle :p
But well, I'm fully aware this is one of those topics where it's impossible for people with different opinions to be in agreement, so i'll just be happy that GW seems to step back from 6th ed in that regard :)

Archangelion
03-06-2010, 01:56
Perhaps they get their own lore because the damsels and the brets, don't have such a firm grasp on magic. Perhapst the damsels only end up using spells that help their boys in battle. Healing spells, wards, gifts of strenth ect. The lore doesn't need to be overpowered or uber in its own right, it just needs to coinside with what the brets already do have. I think if they do get their own lore, it should be about helping their army rather than attacking the enemy. If there are spells that are directed at the foe, it would be for the purpose of distracting them before the knights roll over them.

That is all...

Charistoph
03-06-2010, 04:28
Add to the list of lores, the Dwarfs. Of course, they Smith their magic instead of weaving wind, but it's a heck of a lot more reliable then the Khemri. You can't dispel runes!

Ludaman
03-06-2010, 07:19
I vote "no" after reading what the new lore of life does in 8th, give me two of that for my brets!

Scythe
03-06-2010, 07:59
Same list but add gut magic.


Really no need for each of the elves and the beastmen to have their own lore.

Hmm, High and Dark Magic have a unique position in the fluff, kind of, as they are a combination of the core lores. But maybe those should be generic as well, giving several other armies like Lizardmen access to them.


Two armies sharing a lore is vastly different than 8 lores shared by most of the armies.

That's what college magic was back then. And that magic was more widely available as the 8 lores are now. I remember every single one mage having access to every college magic spell deck. Currently, that is only true for a few races (High Elves, Empire, Lizardmen), with most armies only having limited access to a couple of base lores at the most. In addition to college magic, you had those kind of unique lores which were still available to several armies.


Heck even Chaos dwarves had their own lore.

Technically, the Ice Queen of Kislev has her own lore currently.


As for chaos, why of course they only had three lores, they also only had only one book.

Two books actually (the Champions of Chaos book as well). Bit of a moot point though, all spell decks were only available through the magic supplement box, not through the army books as currently.


Anyway, my opinion is based on fluff, and on fluff, the ones that should have access to the 8 lores are the ones that would have access to the colleges themselves, and nobody else.

The spell lists are based on the different colors of magic, not on the colleges. If you can channel a color of magic, you have the potential of learning one of its spells. The colleges are the most common way to achieve this (for humans), but not the only way.


back in 5th, the lores were distributed among armies based on logic. Just an exemple, it's logical that undead had access to black magic, since necromancers become necromancers after fiddling with black magic, necromancy is a derivative from black magic.

They also had free access to college magic back then, which was a huge bag of spells which would make limited sense on a necromancer. But yes, it was interesting that necromancers could access dark magic back then (a nice bridge to Nagash, who learned dark magic from an imprissoned dark elf sorceress, and corrupted it to necromancy). On the other hand, they seem to be pushing the necromancy = corrupted death magic more these days.


Besides it's boring when everybody got the same spells. It would be so exciting if my goblin shamans casted a pit of shades or a fireball >>. So I welcome back army specific lores (not saying that brets should get one, though it would be fun to give amber wizards to brets). I guess my opinion is that the lores should be kicked out of the BRB and put in the Empire book, and they'd have to choose e bright wizard or a celestial wizard or whatever in their list, just like a chaos player has to choose tzeench sorcerer or a slaanesh sorcerer, it's not like each army has a full complement of wizards to choose from before each battle :p

Not a fan. I'm all for reduction of the number of lores, and making them more generic (possibly adding more spells per lore, and adding high and dark magic to the core book).


But well, I'm fully aware this is one of those topics where it's impossible for people with different opinions to be in agreement,

Agreed :p

Urgat
03-06-2010, 08:43
Agreed :p

That's the most important part :) What can I say, I like armies to be unique, and shared lores kind of go against that feeling of mine.

dragonet111
03-06-2010, 09:11
I have no GW shops in my area and nowhere to have a sneak peak to the book (when it's going to happen) so I will have to wait for the released of the 8ed for the new/revamp spells, maybe a bretonnian lore is going to be irrelevant or not that fun compared to the rulebook lore.

Nevertheless I liked the unique spells of Morgiana, and I would like to see that again.

Kuja
04-06-2010, 09:06
I'm all for reduction of the number of lores, and making them more generic (possibly adding more spells per lore, and adding high and dark magic to the core book).

I think the same too. Some armys sharing the same "special" lores, like lizardmen and high elves sharing high magic or vampire counts and dark elves sharing dark magic, with some unique spells for each one (like necromancy spells for vampires only), or even two armies like bretonnia and wood elves having access to the same unique spells from the lore of life, makes a lot of sense to me.

Archangelion
04-06-2010, 11:22
I think the same too. Some armys sharing the same "special" lores, like lizardmen and high elves sharing high magic or vampire counts and dark elves sharing dark magic, with some unique spells for each one (like necromancy spells for vampires only), or even two armies like bretonnia and wood elves having access to the same unique spells from the lore of life, makes a lot of sense to me.

Eeek! NO! I don't like this notion at all! I like my DE spells where they are thank you! I think takeing the spells that the counts have and makeing them genericsih would also be a very bad thing. Thing is, army lores tend to be army specific, assisiting directly in what that army does best.

Kuja
04-06-2010, 11:49
Sorry, maybe I said it wrong. I was trying to say that I would like to see lores with more spells (lets say 12) and for example, dark magic having four spells only for vampire counts (from the current vampire counts army book and some of them with different power levels), four spells only for dark elves (from the current dark elves army book too, and some of them with different power levels too) and four spells that both armies can share (none of them beign army specific orieted, just only magic missiles, some little buffs, etc). It was just a thought.

Archangelion
04-06-2010, 22:21
Sounds more complex than giving armies their own lores and haveing basic lores on top to choose from... I, personally, think that mages should be able to use spells from multiple lores (with restrictions) say, a DE sorc that knows a fire spell, a metal spell, and a couple spells from the DE lore.

Chiron
05-06-2010, 01:32
No theres to many Lores at is, I believe as many books as possible should stick to the core rules.

Archangelion
05-06-2010, 02:08
I don't see why people have a problem with having a lore per army, plus the base lores. I mean, do you really need to remeber every single spell? I find the answer is no, personally. If I want to know what the spell does, I ask my opponent, or go look at their dex before desiding if I want to dispell it or not.

Tymell
05-06-2010, 02:21
Speaking only for myself, it's not an objection based on having too many to remember or anything, it's just because I prefer the idea of a set of core lores common to most armies rather than each one having it's own. That just appeals to me more.

Chiron
05-06-2010, 10:43
Speaking only for myself, it's not an objection based on having too many to remember or anything, it's just because I prefer the idea of a set of core lores common to most armies rather than each one having it's own. That just appeals to me more.

Indeed, that and theres only so many ways you can say "This is a magic missile that does d6 S4 hits" before it gets boring and pointless

Kuja
05-06-2010, 13:09
The current number of lores in the game (and S4 magic missiles :D, just as Chiron said) is too much.

I think that much less lores, all of them in the rulebook, double number of spells for each lore, some lores allowed only for certain armies (just like now), some spells in some lores allowed only for a certain army, each spell with different power levels (all of them beign useful and none of them a no-brainer option always), and the possibilitie to choose the spells for your wizards before the battle, would bring more fun, more order, and more strategy to the game.

Archangelion
05-06-2010, 17:25
I think the reason that there is a missile in each lore is because it is a basic attack that most mages tend to know, no matter the lore they use. The problem, I think, is that most mages are restricted to only takeing one lore. Now, if a mage were permited to choose between certain lores then it would be fine for each army to have only specific spells, like raise dead and stuff. Here is what I mean. In Magic the gathering, there is a wheel of colours, each colour has frendly and enemy colours. So, like MTG, the lores could also have a similar aproach.

Basicly, I think that the army books have already done this to a point. But I think each mage should be able to pick and choose which lore(s) to take each spell from. So 1 from fire, 1 from death and 2 from the army lore for example.

Scythe
07-06-2010, 06:42
Basicly, I think that the army books have already done this to a point. But I think each mage should be able to pick and choose which lore(s) to take each spell from. So 1 from fire, 1 from death and 2 from the army lore for example.

Which would go against established background. Humans can only master a single wind of magic; it is the idea behind the different colleges. If there have ever been humans capable of channeling multiple colors, none have been documented as far as I know.

Archangelion
11-06-2010, 11:00
So humans wouldn't get the rule!

Bumble the Great
11-06-2010, 11:27
I would rather see Damsels have abilities along the lines of what warrior priests have(different blessings of the lady ect) that way you could add a bit of a brettonian twist to the spells without actually going to the length of making a whole new lore

R-Love
11-06-2010, 22:43
Which would go against established background. Humans can only master a single wind of magic; it is the idea behind the different colleges. If there have ever been humans capable of channeling multiple colors, none have been documented as far as I know.

Most of the wizards who don't go to the colleges do this naturally, actually, using a mix of the winds as it enters the world (ie, Dark Magic). They just tend to, you know, go insane, start growing tentacles and have their heads blow up. So yeah. Humans only use a single lore because they don't have the time to learn high magic, or the filters the elves have to prevent the head 'splodeyness Elves get to us dark magic.

Spiney Norman
12-06-2010, 01:37
Hi Guys.

With the new edition all the armybooks are going to be redone (I know it's going to take some time:D).
For the next Bretonnian armybook do you think a magic lore for the Lady of the Lake is a good idea.

IMO yes, I would like something more Bretonnian and less made in Empire magic.

I don't think its necessary, and I don't think its likely either.

Theres no way they'd go to the trouble of totally reforming the magic system and developing 8 shiny new lores and then reduce the number of armies that can use them. I fully expect armies released under 8th Ed to either lose their racial lores or get the option to use BRB lores instead. In terms of fluff there are very few armies that actually should have their own lores, Greenskins (their magic comes from Greenskin psychic energy), undead, and perhaps ogres (since their magic comes from the great maw) are really the only ones, all the others should really be using the 8 winds of magic.

Archangelion
12-06-2010, 01:39
Though there are mages that CAN use multiple lores yes? My point is that if the winds are similar, say shadow and death... or fire and metal... or life and light ect ect, then their shouldn't be as much conflict.

Regardless of this. Certain army specific lores are usually a more focused use of a base lore. To think that there are only a set number of spells per wind is just blindness to reality. There will be hundreds if not thousands of varients of spells and what have you per wind. So I say why not have a lore for an army each, it provides the OPTION to use spells that are more pertinant to the army itself.

What would the counts be without their specific lore? I mean really?!

Having an army specific lore is just showing that that army uses certain 'schools' of magic, but also has spells that are more commonly used by mages that help their race survive and win battles.

If an army specific lore is not made for the bretonians. I think that the damsels should have more of a static effect on units. Like what the Dark Elves cauldron does. Where the player gets to chose an effect that the damsel uses to either protect or to strenthen her brethren. Bonuses could be increased to the knights or men whom with she has joined.

If they go this route, I would hope that the damsels would be somewhat cheaper so that more of them could be had.

This could also replace the blessings of the lady army rule and instead they could channel that rule through the damsels.

If not, I would love to see an army specific lore. I have not seen what the new spells have to offer yet, but if they do not offer the things that I feel would specificly aid the bretonian flavour, then I will continue hopeing for the Lore of the Lady.

A question to the above post.... what armies DON'T have access to the basic lores in the rule book because they have an army specific lore? My dark elves have BOTH! so what is the fear?

Ghazbad_Facestompa
12-06-2010, 02:19
Orcs and Goblins.

R-Love
12-06-2010, 02:55
A question to the above post.... what armies DON'T have access to the basic lores in the rule book because they have an army specific lore? My dark elves have BOTH! so what is the fear?

Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Skaven. Vampire Counts and Daemons can get the basic lores, but have to pay extra for it (though it does give them all spells in the lore they choose, so it's not that big a deal really)

Arliens
13-06-2010, 00:35
I am fine with it so long as it does not keep to the trend of the Brets being pawns of the Wood Elves. Keep the Brets as Brets not serving Queen Ariel or any pointy ears.

SPSchnepp2
13-06-2010, 01:12
I am fine with it so long as it does not keep to the trend of the Brets being pawns of the Wood Elves. Keep the Brets as Brets not serving Queen Ariel or any pointy ears.

Personally, I'd like to see it go the other way and have the two combine army books or at least get a WE allied contingent for the Brets... but *that* will never happen. Ever.

Archangelion
13-06-2010, 02:12
Clearly, certain armies have their own specific way of doing things. The tomb kinds, for example, have a VERY diffent aproach. Same with the counts and the orgres. Everyone else, it seems, should be able to use the primary winds as per normal. All I am saying is that the spells in the core book are the BASIC spells! The army lores are more... advanced?...not quite the word I am looking for... hmm... maybe just more direct to they way that that army uses magic in general. To say that army lores should be stricken is like saying that a work of art should be simplified to show the exact point. More lores equal more flavour, more choice, more selection, more variation... and more unique and interesting games. It also allows a player to feel like he/she is using something special. If a player wishes, and the army book permits it, then that player can also chose to use the basic spells of a basic wind of magic.

But the spells in the core book are just that... core spells, basic, more fundimental, more commonly used. The army based lores contain spells that are... generally... used only by the army that the lore is for. They are special, unique or even more potent. Some are tooled to be in a more direct synergy with their army. I see no reason to hate, or to wish to hate this option. Infact, I embrace it. I am not saying that GW should smite the basic lores. I am saying that GW should give us a broader spectrum of spells to choose from for each army. Let me have the choice to use fire, or metal, or heavens or the lore of the lady... I say bring on the army based lores... the more spells the better! All I want GW to do in doing so is to not become redundant with the core spells... but to make EACH spell in the army lores a unique and flavorful spell that has synergy with the army from which it is born.

Kuja
13-06-2010, 07:40
I am fine with it so long as it does not keep to the trend of the Brets being pawns of the Wood Elves. Keep the Brets as Brets not serving Queen Ariel or any pointy ears.

I personally like a lot of things about the relationship between bretonnians and wood elves (except some things about the Kurnous Hunts, etc). Humans workshiping an elven deity of nature? Cool (as long as Ariel, who is the avatar of Isha, or Isha is the Lady of the Lake). But, if the Lady of the Lake is Athel Loren itself, It will be even more cool to me :D.

Although at first sight appears that bretonnians are mere pawns of the wood elves (or of Athel Loren, because wood elves serves Athel Loren necesities), I think that the elven manipulation over the brets has it's limits. I don't really see elves making bretonnians doing things that would risk the Realm of Bretonnia existence (because wood elves needs bretonnians as much as bretonnians needs wood elves) or any other thing that could reduce the bretonnians faith in their goddess protection. They manipulate them, but in the end, everything that they make brets to do will benefit brets too. I think that brets just doesn't care to know the truth and some of them to talk about it (although, maybe it could be a bit dangerous in some places... :p), they only appear to care about reciving the blessing and (mostly of them) becaming grial knights, wich, in fact, is a very good choice.

Ultimate Life Form
13-06-2010, 18:57
There is a Lady of Lake Lore. It's called Lore of Athel Loren.

Urgat
13-06-2010, 19:08
Yeah, that's why wood elves got the blessing of the lady and virtues and things like that. oh, wait...

Charistoph
13-06-2010, 21:37
Yeah, that's why wood elves got the blessing of the lady and virtues and things like that. oh, wait...

Actually, the Forest Spirit Rule has a LOT of similarities...

I don't think the Lady is Ariel, but someone similar. A High Elf who managed, like Ariel, to find another home after the Exodus, would not be very surprising.

Archangelion
14-06-2010, 01:30
Perhaps the Lady of the Lake is a Branchwraith, one that is essentially a mirror oposite of Drycha.

Urgat
14-06-2010, 08:01
Actually, the Forest Spirit Rule has a LOT of similarities...

I don't think the Lady is Ariel, but someone similar. A High Elf who managed, like Ariel, to find another home after the Exodus, would not be very surprising.

A forest spirit isn't an elf though, and, browsing through my girlfriend's armybook, I noticed they aren't such great pals in fact, it appears forest spirits barely tolerate wood elves, and elves suck up to them to be accepted, basically?
To be honest I've always thought that the Lady was probably of wood elf origin, a rogue version of Ariel maybe, but this discussion kindda changed my opinion.


Perhaps the Lady of the Lake is a Branchwraith, one that is essentially a mirror oposite of Drycha.

And so... this one becomes a very interesting suggestion, though I think she's not a forest spirit. Well, she's the Lady of the Lake, not the Lady of the Woods. I therefore claim here that the Lady is actually Ondine (well, Nixe sounds more cool, but it's german, so ondine fits better for brets), and a personnification of the lakes and rivers of the lands of Bretonnia :D. Maybe she's originally an elf like Ariel, who knows. She needs the Bretonnians because there's decidedly too many river trolls there, and she doesn't like the feeling of them in her waters :p And Brets and WE seem to live in some relative peace because Ondine and Ariel often spend tea-time together and are best pals.
I'm therefore asking for a Lore of the Waters for Bretonnians :D

Seriously, if you ignore all the sillyness I put in my post... I kindda like this idea a lot, in fact. Sounds plausible too (well, I at least think so).

Kuja
14-06-2010, 12:03
Maybe the Lady of the Lake is Loec, because she enjoys tricking bretonnians and us, with the help of the GW fluff writters! And the words Lake and Loec sound similar! :eek:

(I'm just kidding :p)

Ultimate Life Form
14-06-2010, 12:04
Loec is a crossdresser? Well, he's an Elven deity, so why am I acting surprised...

dragonet111
14-06-2010, 12:06
After readin the rumors concerning the new lore I know that my brets are going to have some Damsel.... but from a fun point of view I still want my lore:D.

vinush
14-06-2010, 22:23
I'm sure the fey enchantress' stat line is that of a Wood elf mage...

THE \/ince

Archangelion
15-06-2010, 02:10
The artwork of the Fey Enchantress sure looks a little elven! Even if the lady is some form of personification of the forest of Athel Loren, or a wood elf spellsinger or spellweaver that is using the Bretonians to protect the forest. None of it really means that the wood elves and brets are in league with one another, but form a sort of symbiotic relationship to one another. It may just be a case of some elven ingenuity to use the bretonians for the furthurance of the protection of the forest. In the end, they may not entirely care so much what happens to the bretonians, but I am sure they (she, whatever) would see the wisdom in keeping them loyal and at hand to keep the forest safe. So, whether the Lady of the Lake is infact seperate from the forest and the elves or not, the end result is the same. The Lady would most likely teach or at least inspire her followers in the bretonian culture to use spells similar to her own devices, thus creating a lore for the brenonian people, The Lore of the Lady of the Lake of the lands of Bretonia of the Old World of the.... hmm...

R-Love
15-06-2010, 02:21
I'm sure the fey enchantress' stat line is that of a Wood elf mage...

THE \/ince

And she rides a unicorn, which it is said only the wood elves can do...and she has pointed ears...and those children she takes are implied to wind up in Athel Loren...and the Damsels magic is chiefly nature based...and the lake Gilles was laid to rest in was described as near Loren...and the Green Knight is a fey being associated with the forest...and the Lady appeared to Gilles shortly after the Wood Elves scryed the future and saw that their fate was tied to Bretonnia's...:shifty:

Bah, I'm sure they're all coincidences :D

vinush
15-06-2010, 05:53
Also, the WFRP guide to Bretonnia outright states that the fey enchantress is an elf....

Archangelion
15-06-2010, 11:20
She even dresses like a spellsinger or spellweaver! She knows all the lores! And seems to know the lore of life quite well. Odd that, if she is a wood elf, she does not know the Athel Loren lore.

Charistoph
15-06-2010, 19:16
She even dresses like a spellsinger or spellweaver! She knows all the lores! And seems to know the lore of life quite well. Odd that, if she is a wood elf, she does not know the Athel Loren lore.

One reason that the Lady and the Enchantress may be Elven, but not necessarily Asrai.

dragonet111
15-06-2010, 20:12
Maybe she WAS elven a long time ago. Now she is something else like Sigmar who became a god.

enyoss
15-06-2010, 20:19
I voted no. Never mind adding more race specific lores, I'd like to see some that already exist replaced with bog standard ones:

Wood Elves: Life, Beasts, Shadow.
Beastmen: Beasts, Shadow, Death.
Lizardmen: as High Elves (sharing High Magic).

I'd rather see race specific rules appear as small bonuses here and there when using particular lores, if there have to be any extra rules at all.


These days? Before 6th ed, about everybody had their own lore. If anything, they've been toned down.

Well, not really, as quite a few races shared lores back then. High Elves, Wood Elves (level 4) and Lizardmen shared High Magic; Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Daemons and Undead shared Dark Magic with the Dark Elves (although Undead did get some of their own spells too). Apart from Waaagh and Skaven, everyone then relied on the eight core lores. They did have an advantage though in that the design team sat down at the start of 4th edition and designed all the lores at once, rather than drip feeding them out through the books.

dragonet111
15-06-2010, 20:24
I know it's my thread but after the leak concerning the revamp of the classic lore I'm not sure I want a specific lore:D, the basic lore look awesome.

Urgat
15-06-2010, 20:53
Well, not really, as quite a few races shared lores back then. High Elves, Wood Elves (level 4) and Lizardmen shared High Magic; Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Daemons and Undead shared Dark Magic with the Dark Elves (although Undead did get some of their own spells too). Apart from Waaagh and Skaven, everyone then relied on the eight core lores. They did have an advantage though in that the design team sat down at the start of 4th edition and designed all the lores at once, rather than drip feeding them out through the books.

Someone has already said that, and I've already replied to it :p

enyoss
15-06-2010, 22:04
Someone has already said that, and I've already replied to it :p

Ah yes, so you did :D. That's about the only time I've been sloppy and not bothered reading all the replies before posting, and it kind of bit me on the ass, didn't it?

Archangelion
16-06-2010, 02:07
One reason that the Lady and the Enchantress may be Elven, but not necessarily Asrai.

Toushe (or however you spell it, I suck! lol)

hawo0313
16-06-2010, 02:32
I would actually prefer it if the focus were more on defensive magic and blessings already having a ward save and MR the only change I would like is a set of prayers similar to that of the empire. However not sure is this would make bretts toomuch like empire

dragonet111
16-06-2010, 08:13
Toushe (or however you spell it, I suck! lol)


It will be touché but that has no interest:D.

Maybe she was here before elves split into asur/asrai/druchii. She knew/predicted what was going to happened and using her enormous magical power she removed herself from the mortal realms.

stashman
16-06-2010, 10:39
Bretonnian Magic should be something like Empires priests.

Healing and defence magic.

Archangelion
16-06-2010, 11:20
Perhaps with a little combat bonus stuff to? To bolster the Knights on the charge. Perhaps (given the new rules) a spell that would make charging a little more safe, or knowable. Altering the dice roll result by +2 for each dice or something, (to a max of 6 of course).

Scythe
16-06-2010, 11:54
Healing and defence magic.

Check out the 8th edition lore of life. ;)