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Lord Inquisitor
31-05-2010, 18:49
Since there's a lot of threads for individual armies but none that I can see on everybody's favourite tournament army, I thought I'd start one. In a nice plum colour as big blocks of pink make people's eyes bleed, apparently... :shifty:

So what are the changes going to mean for Daemons?

Lords:
Greater Daemons are still obscene. Indeed, with +1CR for charging and no outnumber bonus, they can actually charge a ranked unit and expect to beat them. That said, they can no longer break ranks and just about everything they charge is going to be Stubborn, so that seems to even out. In terms of fighting prowess, the Keeper of Secrets gets a huge boost from the rule that allows you to reroll attacks if you have ASF and a higher initiative. All GDs benefit from D6 Crush Them! extra attacks apparently, so they may all be reasonably able to hold their own against ranked units.

The biggest change for Greater Daemons is the character cap, 25% Lords means you only have 500 point to spend in a 2000-point army, 563 points in a 2250 point army and 625 points in a 2500-point army. So unless you're playing big games means less points to play with for upgrades and magic. This makes Bloodthirsters more attactive (as they've typically cheaper). That said, a Lvl4 caster is a nice thing to have for spellcasting and dispelling, so if you have the points, one of the other 3 may be better - depending on how lethal the new miscast table is. Daemon Princes might be worth another look - unit strength 3 is no longer a disadvantage, they might be able to get a look out sir roll near things like fiends, and with ASF they can garner re-roll hits with that nice high initiative and they can fit nicely into that 25% bracket.

Heroes:
No character cap is certainly a benefit. Now every unit can have a herald in it. Personally, rather than a number of tricked-out heralds, I'd be tempted to give every unit a naked herald and not bother with gifts unless they're particularly useful. The exception will be the compulsory battle standard bearer, who is so expensive with a banner that it's worth shelling out to protect him. Usually a BSB comes to about 250 points ish so that's half of your 25%, leaving you with only enough to buy about 3 naked heralds, so maybe we'll see some daemon armies with no greater icon?

Chariots lose the ability to break ranks but can't be auto-killed. Certainly worth it if you have a few points to spend after giving every unit a herald.

Core:
Bloodletters and daemonettes seem to be the winners here. With ASF and initaitive 5, daemonettes will be re-rolling to hit against most enemies apart from elves and warriors. Bloodletters make the most of the rear ranks fighting, although both will suffer from the stepping up rule with only T3 and they'll require a herald in every unit. Plaguebearers are as nasty as ever and stepping up/fighting in ranks will certainly benefit them - but any change to the regen rules will hurt them. Horrors seem useless unless you take few but massive units - a single Lvl 4 seems much more useful than multiple Lvl 1s - but if you can't afford a Lord with Lvl4, then maybe a big unit of horrors would be worthwhile?

Special:
Flesh hounds would require two ranks to break ranks and at 30-points a pop that seems unrealistic. That said, +1 for charging and no outnumber - is that going to matter? While stepping up will hurt, they're tough enough to take some. They still remain a good choice. Seekers can't break ranks (boo!) but they might just be able to take two ranks realistically without becoming prohibitively expensive and with a herald will re-roll attacks, nice. However, the random charge move will make them a little tricky to use and will likely reduce their charge distance on average ... but on the plus side, Ld-tests for marching will allow them to flank effectively. With only T3 and a 6+ armour, Seekers are going to have to choose their targets very carefully - stepping up will mean an ill-thought-out charge will simply end up in being slaughtered. Herald will be compulsory. Nurglings may lose a lot for being in a skirmish formation (nurglings killed my Keeper of Secrets yesterday via winning combat by 1 for outnumbering and me rolling boxcars for my Ld test :mad: so no tears shed by me!). Screamers - dunno, never seen them used. They seem to be getting nothing but disadvantages, so I doubt we'll see them either.

Rare:
Flamers! Everybody hates them. Not much difference, the fixed formation may make them a little less annoying, but it's unclear at this point how much effect it will have. Lack of outnumbering will make them more viable in combat against ranked units. Fiends get better, as do Bloodcrushers if they get the Crush them! extra attack (it'd make sense!). Beasts of nurgle really aren't any more viable.

Overall, here are my predictions:


Greater Daemons still the greatest but probably with a lot less gear.
Many heralds with few, if any gifts.
Daemonettes and Bloodletters gain favour as core choices, they're faster (more likely to get flanks) and benefit more from the new rules. Herald in every unit even more necessary.
Less special choices. Nurglings out of favour, flesh hounds still the top dogs, possibly even more so. Seekers useful but even more fragile than before.
Same rares - flamers still on fire. Fiends and Bloodcrushers OK due to crushing.


In terms of tactics, we might see a total reversal. Rather than tarpitting the enemy with blocks of infantry so the GD/special/rare beasties can get a flank charge, I think we'll see the monsters and cavalry tying up the enemy so the infantry can get round the flanks.

PeG
31-05-2010, 20:21
more shooting, more reliable shooting from cannons, stone throwers etc, more attacks from infantry, more attacks back after charging etc will hurt daemons. I think that they will still be powerful but probably no longer the strongest army since very few rules actually benefits them.

Daemonettes will become more popular but with T3 and a 5+ ward they will lose models even against basic 4pt infantry.

Agusto
31-05-2010, 21:20
As a pure Slaanesh player, I am more or less changing my army either into a WoC Slaanesh one just for a bit of change and fun or shelving it for a while. If neither KoS, nor seekers will be able to brake ranks, and not chariot mounted heralds or a unit of spawns either for that sake, it will be an uphill struggle. I am not complaining though, DoC was, and still is for a few more months, an abomination. There is something wrong when you have to try to make a weak list for friendly games. But still, even with some re-rolls to hit thanks to ASF and high Initiative, it won't save my army from eight edition, at least that is what I am fearing.

First of all, the change in movement. High move and the ability to charge rather than be charged was the main strength of Slaanesh. With a random move, a low roll will have your chariots being charged or your seekers stranded in front of a gunline.

With all the (confirmed) rumours of shooting in two ranks and no guessing for war machines there will be a heck of a lot more shooting this time around. And with only rank and file troops being able to break ranks, well... if I was my opponent, I know where I would aim those mortars or flame cannons. There wont be that many T3 girls on the board to begin with due to our high point cost and a shooting phase later, there will be even fewer.

Changes to fear. Again, a change I think is for the better. Auto breaking was too good and hitting on 6s is more balanced. But it will make daemons a bit worse.

Stepping up will mean that even though my girls will still win against most other core units by a point or two, they will take hits back and they will loose models. Today, killing a model or three of the unit I was fighting usually meant perhaps a single casualty in return. Now there will be more! And a war of attrition is not something I am looking forward to, we simply lack the numbers.

So my view is that Slaanesh daemons won't be able to win as often as they used to. And that would have been fine by me. They were too good. But as I said before, I am afraid that the pendulum will swing too far to the other side and nerf us a bit too much. I hope that my fears will be exaggerated. I am pretty aware that this sounds like whining, but it is not intended as such. As I said, I welcome a change to the game that puts more focus on big units of rank and file troops rather than a few expensive characters and small elite units. But as a mono god daemon player, it is tough to fit into that new role.

Agusto

Lord Inquisitor
01-06-2010, 01:34
I, too, play mono-Slaanesh. I'm looking forward to using my army in 8th however and I think mono-Slaanesh has a few really useful tools.

Re-rolling to hit is pretty cool on seekers and daemonettes, but it's awesome on the Keeper. The Ld-bomb will be possibly even more nasty - the Keeper may not break ranks but with re-rolls to hit and wound (soul hunger), you can reliably expect 5 wounds on an enemy unit. You can Ld-bomb an enemy unit, smash into the front of it with the Keeper. With +1CR for charging and no +1CR for outnumber, a fully ranked unit will only have a +3CR advantage at the start of combat. With -3 to -5 Ld penalty and Ld tests to attack the Keeper back, she's reasonably save from return attacks and can easily win combat - and then while the enemy unit may be Stubborn, they're Stubborn at -3 to -5 Ld, plus phantasmagoria may make it even worse. So in other words you can throw your Keeper right into the front of a fully ranked unit and expect to break them! :cheese: Lacking in subtlety, perhaps, but something the opponent may not expect.


First of all, the change in movement. High move and the ability to charge rather than be charged was the main strength of Slaanesh. With a random move, a low roll will have your chariots being charged or your seekers stranded in front of a gunline.
This is true, although things like Siren Song and the Siren Standard can mitigate shooting. For example, you could stick a herald with Siren Song in every Seeker unit, throw them 20" forward turn one and then pull all of the missile troops out of position. (And yes, I know that's a horrific suggestion and I am ashamed.)


Changes to fear. Again, a change I think is for the better. Auto breaking was too good and hitting on 6s is more balanced. But it will make daemons a bit worse.
Actually, I think this might be better. Autobreaking was bread and butter for undead, but daemon units are often too small to autobreak. Now, Fear might hugely mitigate casualties from stepping up - sure you get two ranks to attack, but hitting on 6's they won't do much. So Fear will actually protect the fragile daemonettes.

So I think this change is extremely good, especially with Ld-bomb.


And a war of attrition is not something I am looking forward to, we simply lack the numbers.
Unless you can pulverise a unit sufficiently that it is completely destroyed. Difficult, but with virtually all of our troops striking first with re-rolled hits, a combo-charge may do it.

So I think the glass is very much half-full for pure-Slaanesh.

Wednesday Friday Addams
01-06-2010, 02:29
I was sure the last time I checked that flamers were a special choice.

Zaustus
01-06-2010, 04:59
Nope, they're definitely rare.

@ Lord Inquisitor: I think your analysis is pretty much spot-on. I do think people may take more big horror units to put their wizard choices into core instead of wasting limited lord or hero points on them. This obviously doesn't apply if you're playing non-Tzeentch mono-god, but for mixed lists I think they'll still be common, especially with the new plastics coming out. Not giving magic levels to a KoS or GUO saves a ton of points and lets you kit them out with other silly stuff.

Fallenturtle
01-06-2010, 06:19
I must say, I am going to rather enjoy continuing to play my LD Bomb list. People laugh at the deamonettes in 7th.. in 8th They will be feared.

Agusto
01-06-2010, 07:54
Lord Inquisitor, for both our sakes I pray that I am wrong and you are right! Years ago, when I was a younger man, I used to fence and I think that is the reason why I really liked Slaanesh. Well, that and the fact that you get to do a lot of really kinky conversions. Fencing was about first trying out your opponent for a short time, get a feel for what kind of fencer he or she was. Then you searched for a possible weak spot, a breach in their defence and then you lunged. If you were fast enough and your aim was true enough you got a touch. If you missed or your opponent was faster and parried, or even worse had deceived you and the weakness was only a trap, then you were in trouble! That was how Slaanesh was to me. Like a rapier. You could never defeat an army head on, you attacked your opponents weaker units and broke through while dancing around or occupying his stronger unit with a sacrificial one of your own to buy enough time to use your superior speed to surround and destroy it in one coordinated attack.

And here is where I see trouble. If the rumours are correct that a BSB allows you to reroll fear and terror and that you can use the generals leadership even for stubborn. Then it will lead to the kind of battles where you wouldn't want to bring a rapier. A mace more likely, or possibly more fitting, a warhammer. In my view, it would go from a movie such as "The Three Musketeers" to "Rocky". And while I have no trouble envisioning a dwarf, an ogre, a chaos warrior, orc or saurus trading blows for fifteen rounds, I just can't see a daemonette staggering around on the battlefield on turn six crying out: "Adriaaaaan..."

But as I said, perhaps you are right. The glass may be half filled and we simply need to go for every leadership lowering trick in the book.

It will be interesting to see what other players will say, those who play weaker and flawed (so called) Gods of chaos :)

Agusto

Von Wibble
01-06-2010, 12:16
Lord Inquisitor - I miss the familiar pink myself. Let their eyes bleed!

I agree with most of the points. Just to add a couple

Flamers - if skirmishers can march and shoot as rumoured then these guys become obscene!

Seekers - as fast cavalry can pull all sorts of nastiness with that free 12" move at the start. Dirty trick - have 2 units with siren song herald and siren standard.

If you get first turn, charge and kill enemy missile troops.

If he gets first turn, let his missile troops try to charge you and then get massacred.

Flesh Hounds - Only 1 attack per model in the second rank. I see these as units to take in blocks of 6. hilst they won't break stubborn, a flank charge is still going to be pretty decisive.

Wouldn't Beasts get crush them? I don't see why not?

One big negative to the fear changes though - enemies don't have to take a ld check to charge you. This means that they have a better chance of fighting combats on their terms.

Cambion Daystar
01-06-2010, 14:08
Wouldn't Beasts get crush them? I don't see why not?

That still wont help them much

PeG
01-06-2010, 14:57
Seekers - as fast cavalry can pull all sorts of nastiness with that free 12" move at the start. Dirty trick - have 2 units with siren song herald and siren standard.

If you get first turn, charge and kill enemy missile troops.

If he gets first turn, let his missile troops try to charge you and then get massacred.
......

One big negative to the fear changes though - enemies don't have to take a ld check to charge you. This means that they have a better chance of fighting combats on their terms.


I thought there were no charges onm the first turn (at least not by the player going first) which means that the free move would primarily set up the seekers to be in range of handgunner and other stuff.

As for no LD checks to charge a fear causing enemy this is probably more important for daemons than no autobreaking by fear since daemons blocks in 7th ed are usually rather small.

Lord Inquisitor
01-06-2010, 15:27
And here is where I see trouble. If the rumours are correct that a BSB allows you to reroll fear and terror and that you can use the generals leadership even for stubborn. Then it will lead to the kind of battles where you wouldn't want to bring a rapier. A mace more likely, or possibly more fitting, a warhammer. In my view, it would go from a movie such as "The Three Musketeers" to "Rocky". And while I have no trouble envisioning a dwarf, an ogre, a chaos warrior, orc or saurus trading blows for fifteen rounds, I just can't see a daemonette staggering around on the battlefield on turn six crying out: "Adriaaaaan..."
I think the rapier may still be appropriate. But we may need to think about increasing the amount of power behind the blow - as I mentioned already, a hammer strike from the Keeper or Herald in a Chariot on their own may be enough to blow through even ranked units if suitably Ld-bombed. Alternatively, we may need to consider applying enough force to a single weak link in the chain. A combo-charge by daemonettes, keeper and a chariot even to the front should be enough to obliterate or at least maul below stubborn and smash through...

If we do see a huge increase in infantry use in general, then Daemonettes have the marked advantage of being M6, allowing them to more easily outmaneuver the enemy.


Seekers - as fast cavalry can pull all sorts of nastiness with that free 12" move at the start. Dirty trick - have 2 units with siren song herald and siren standard.
Ooh, I hadn't remembered the free 12" move. Even without Siren Song, you should be able to march 20" and get behind the enemy army turn 1! :eek:

Although this brings up another dirty aspect of the Siren Song. Before now it's automatic that the enemy will be able to charge you if you use this power - but in 8th you could sit just inside their maximum potential charge range and then unless they get a perfect charge, they'll fail the charge... naughty.


Flesh Hounds - Only 1 attack per model in the second rank. I see these as units to take in blocks of 6. hilst they won't break stubborn, a flank charge is still going to be pretty decisive.
These guys aren't ogre-sized, I'd be surprised if they rank up 3-wide, not to mention cavalry don't get to fight in ranks. Not quite sure why cavalry don't get to fight in two ranks, lances are quite long, but nevermind...

One thing that does bother me is the idea that BSBs will allow you to re-roll all Ld tests. That'll really hurt daemons in general and Ld-bomb armies in particular. It'll mean either trying to hit units outside of the BSB's influence or assassinating the BSB early on.

Von Wibble
01-06-2010, 17:52
Lord Inquisitor - I meant 1 rank of 6 for the flesh hounds not 2 of 3! I just think 2 ranks of 6 is too expensive. And as I said, I don't think not breaknig stubborn hurts flesh hounds that much.

I agree with your analysis of the slaaneshi daemons, combo charges will really be needed, but I think they gain more than they lose this edition. As an aside I really hope the siren song and master rune of challenge are errataed in some way, but doubt it will happen. My own slaaneshi army will have 0-2 on principle as more than this just isn't sporting.

PeG - is that rule about on charges on turn 1 officially seen/ rumoured or just a guess? It certainly isn't in 7th edition. Seekers will have options even without it, but it really stops war machines dominating otherwise.

Vineas
01-06-2010, 18:34
As an upcoming fantasy player who happens to play Daemons in 40k I don't know much bout Daemons in Fantasy (other then they are utterly broken I've heard) I would like to know the best way to start.

I'm mainly waiting on August before buying anymore since lots of what I want (crushers and horrors) are going to be in plastic. I'm under the impression that Crushers aren't all that great in the Fantasy side of Daemons. What should I avoid and what should I get more of? Flamers are sick in 40k so I'll pick some up for 40k purposes, same goes for Crushers. I want at least 1 unit of Horrors for 40k. Are Horrors good in Fantasy? Is combined arms the most viable or are themed mono-god armies easier to play in Fantasy than in 40k?

Lord Inquisitor
01-06-2010, 19:26
There's very little that's actually bad in the Fantasy daemon army book, so Bloodcrushers are plenty nasty - they just compete for rare choices with really super-good units like Flamers.

Given that the whole game is being turned on its head, it's difficult for us to say exactly what's good and what's not in the new edition - although you can see plenty of speculation in this thread!

Typically, the road to a fair daemon army is to take the units you like without regard to how good they are.

As far as mono-god versus mixed bag, unlike 40K you can run a viable mono-god army. Each has its own flavour and advantages/weaknesses that comes from spamming a particular type of unit. Khorne - no magic, much killy-death, relatively fast. Nurgle - slow, reasonably killiness, horrifically hard to kill. Tzeentch - low combat ability, major magic (somewhat toned down in next edition) some fast flying units, Slaanesh - low toughness/saves, super-fast with many attacks, many Ld-based attack denial gifts.

To answer your questions:
Crushers are fine, and will be getting better in the new edition.
Flamers are one of the most broken units in the game.
Horrors are changing - probably you'll want one big unit of horrors.

You'll probably need a few more Core choices, so some units of Plaguebearers, Daemonettes or Bloodletters. In 40K each has their uses, so you're probably want a mixture. If you're building an army that works in 40K or Fantasy, I'd build it on 40K terms first because you NEED certain units there as army composition is more important. Then translate it over to Fantasy and see what you'll need to round out the army.

PeG
01-06-2010, 19:36
The no attacks on first turn rumour came from one of the threads here at warseer. The one about changes in the to hit table comes from warseer as well as from a GW store. Not sure if it is correct but ild certainly change things since many daemons have high WS

Vineas
01-06-2010, 21:04
I love the Nurgle Daemons in 40k so I'd definately have no qualms about plaguebearers.

I'll have to see what I like this new edition. I've kept up with Fantasy since 6th but never touched it. I'm looking forward to some demo games of 8th edition in 2 weeks. Maybe I'll see if I can run some Daemons in demos.

Thanks for the reply LI. I'm sure I'll have more questions over the months/weeks.

Von Wibble
02-06-2010, 13:22
One thing that impacts Siren Song - I've just noticed frenziers only have to test to avoid charging if within 12" of the enemy. This would seem the most sensible FAQ ruling on Siren song if one were to be put in place.

Piaevo
02-06-2010, 15:53
"Horrors are changing - probably you'll want one big unit of horrors."

That is just what I was going to ask....

Vineas
02-06-2010, 23:50
I definately plan to get some horrors for 40k army. Thinking maybe a pack of 18 (ya know, stick with the theme of 9). Changeling of course as well. Love the model and the rules.

Agusto
03-06-2010, 14:26
Something that just struck me... I don't really know if this has been debated to death before, if that is the case I apologize. But if nothing changes with the errata for 8th, and if standard games (2250p tournament ones in mind) remains the same it will come to the simple fact that DoC will be the only army in Warhammer that never, ever can take a lvl 4 spellcaster! Our greater daemons will hit the percentage cap and a daemon prince can only be lvl 2.

I was just thinking about trying out a slightly different, more magic heavy, version of my army and test the -2 LD banner with my Keeper as a lvl 4 when it hit me. Perhaps the point size of the army will simply go up again? 2500 or even 3000 as I have read somewhere. Soon battles will be at 10000p and we have to be fighting them in the "Games Workshop modular basement - Collectors edition available"

Lord Inquisitor
03-06-2010, 14:54
Well, as we were discussing earlier in the thread, you can simply take a unit of 36 or more pink horrors and you can have a Lvl4 wizard out of your core allowance... Costs a minimum of 432 points, so it's not cheap, but it allows you to avoid paying for magic on your Lord.

A Keeper can be Level3 in 2250 points however and still have 28 points left to buy a gift.

Agusto
03-06-2010, 15:48
Well... the day I include a non-Slaanesh unit into my army is the day; and I quote a friend: "... will put all my miniatures on the kitchen stove and then have my girlfriend bury me under a mound of tin!" ;) I have to admit that even had I been able to make my keeper a lvl 4 in 8th I doubt I should have done so. Heck, I have never made her a lvl 4 in 7th so why should I start now if the miscast table is even close to what the rumours are saying. One bad roll and all that would be left of a 600 points model would be a pair of smoking stiletto heals! Nah... But it just seems a bit odd that one would not be able to get a lvl 4 if one wished. On the other hand, perhaps people are sick of facing greater daemons throwing spells to the left and right. So I think I will stick to my two lvl 1s even in 8th. Just wished there could be some way, without turning traitor, that Slaanesh players could get their claws on a dispel scroll or two. Facing a magic heavy VC or a tooled up Slann is a sure way of getting the girls from the convent in a bad mood.

By the way, are there any rumours at all about what might change in the erratas? I am soooo wishing for a change concerning the daemon prince that makes it actually playable. My old Slaanesh princess is looking down on me from her shelf with puppy eyes and wants to be out there again. I know, I know... but I can dream, can't I!

Agusto

Hive Fleet Spectra
04-06-2010, 07:08
I also hope that the Demon Prince entry will be altered slightly with the erratas. I'm not sure how extensive they will be in terms of the changes, but in the case of the DP all it needs is an increase in its gift allowance to 100pts. The 35pt dedication cost is also annoying as it does nothing currently, removing that would help but I doubt that will happen.

It will be interesting to see how Magic turns out as I play Tzeentch with a smattering of Khorne units. If games do stay at 2000pts then my Lord of Change will be unusable, which is sad as its my favourite model. I was thinking of going mono Tzeentch but it sounds like this wont be doable if rumours for magic turn out to be correct, will wait and see.

One observation I did make in regards to magic, if we do see large infantry blocks being the norm, so units of 30+ then Plague Wind is going to be mighty for Nurgle casters. I was in my local GW the other day and I was talking to one of the staff members who is building a unit of 50 empire troops. I'm assuming they are toughness 3, but would be amusing to see half the unit explode into nurgling bases :evilgrin:.

Deetwo
04-06-2010, 07:16
so units of 30+ then Plague Wind is going to be mighty for Nurgle casters.

It would be awesome if we had something that can reliably get and cast it...

Heralds are much better off with Miasma, Princes are craptastic and only level 2 anyway and a GUO is simply out of reach below 2,5k...
Guess we'll just have to see if the game size does increase.

Von Wibble
04-06-2010, 09:32
By the way, are there any rumours at all about what might change in the erratas? I am soooo wishing for a change concerning the daemon prince that makes it actually playable. My old Slaanesh princess is looking down on me from her shelf with puppy eyes and wants to be out there again. I know, I know... but I can dream, can't I!



I would be very surprised if the errata addressed much that didn't clearly need changing from the rulebook (eg TK magic, Empire WPs, HE elite army). I completely agree with Hive Fleet Spectra's suggestions for what should be altered.

But the Daemon prince has gained from the rules (more accuratly, has lost less from the rules!) GDs can't break ranks so that's no disadvantage for the prince. Also you can tool up a prince without overstepping the 25% lord limit in games of 2000-2500. Finally having access to magic lores from the RBRB could prove very useful looking at how good those spells are becoming.

Whether these changes are enough I am unsure. But I would certainly consider trying one out in a game.

Hive Fleet Spectra
04-06-2010, 14:27
Especially if the normal game size stays at 2000pts, I would like to try and wriggle one into my list someway or another. The annoying thing is that it is a simple job to make them viable, but we will have to wait and see I guess.

I was looking to use an anti armour build for mine. Immortal Fury + Ether Blade, and also have Level 2 with the Lore of Metal. It's all hypothetical at this stage, but as you say Von Wibble the new lores are sounding good so it could work nicely.

I'll also quickly comment on the earlier discussion of Horror's as I use them in large blocks already. I think unit sizes of 30 will be an optimum size, boosting them to lvl 4 isn't particulary useful as the final spell isn't great at the moment. lvl 3 is enough, and you don't want to go overboard as in combat they are still going to die.

One thing I will say though now I remember, the miscast rule for Horror's may be a massive advantage for them,(it already is really, losing d6 models is nothing) assuming that it will work in the same way in 8th, which it may not. They may be one of the few wizards that will be immune to the new miscast table, though somehow I think they might alter the rule slightly but maybe not.

Lord Inquisitor
04-06-2010, 15:16
Well... the day I include a non-Slaanesh unit into my army is the day; and I quote a friend: "... will put all my miniatures on the kitchen stove and then have my girlfriend bury me under a mound of tin!" ;)
Heh, yeah, me too... :o


Facing a magic heavy VC or a tooled up Slann is a sure way of getting the girls from the convent in a bad mood.
I don't know what kind of slaanesh worshipper you are but my girls aren't from a convent... ;)


I also hope that the Demon Prince entry will be altered slightly with the erratas. I'm not sure how extensive they will be in terms of the changes, but in the case of the DP all it needs is an increase in its gift allowance to 100pts. The 35pt dedication cost is also annoying as it does nothing currently, removing that would help but I doubt that will happen.
The erratas, as Von Wibble says, are extremely unlikely to do anything except deal with any edition clashes - rules in the armybooks that no longer make sense under 8th ed rules. That's it.


It will be interesting to see how Magic turns out as I play Tzeentch with a smattering of Khorne units. If games do stay at 2000pts then my Lord of Change will be unusable, which is sad as its my favourite model. I was thinking of going mono Tzeentch but it sounds like this wont be doable if rumours for magic turn out to be correct, will wait and see.
You can still have a lord of change, just you'll be limited to 50 points of gifts/magic. ;) But since you'll have such a strong magical core, you don't want to spend the points on making the LoC a wizard supreme. Instead he's a flying combat monster. Okay, maybe not quite a bloodthirster, but not too shabby either. Magic will still be powerful, there just won't be the case that more mages = more power.

Mono-tzeench can probably work but it isn't going to be a strong build.


But the Daemon prince has gained from the rules (more accuratly, has lost less from the rules!) GDs can't break ranks so that's no disadvantage for the prince. Also you can tool up a prince without overstepping the 25% lord limit in games of 2000-2500. Finally having access to magic lores from the RBRB could prove very useful looking at how good those spells are becoming.

Whether these changes are enough I am unsure. But I would certainly consider trying one out in a game.
Agreed. I'm going to tear my daemon prince off its round base and put it back on it's square base from long ago and give it a go.


Especially if the normal game size stays at 2000pts, I would like to try and wriggle one into my list someway or another. The annoying thing is that it is a simple job to make them viable, but we will have to wait and see I guess.

I was looking to use an anti armour build for mine. Immortal Fury + Ether Blade, and also have Level 2 with the Lore of Metal. It's all hypothetical at this stage, but as you say Von Wibble the new lores are sounding good so it could work nicely.
I'd go for Unnatural Swiftness (against all enemies that don't have ASF or initiative 7 or more, it'll be as good as Immortal Fury). After that, Etherblade is tempting. Otherwise Soul Hunger and Winged Horror are probably a good pair to round it out, although I'm not sure the Winged Horror is as requisite as it used to be.


I'll also quickly comment on the earlier discussion of Horror's as I use them in large blocks already. I think unit sizes of 30 will be an optimum size, boosting them to lvl 4 isn't particulary useful as the final spell isn't great at the moment. lvl 3 is enough, and you don't want to go overboard as in combat they are still going to die.
I think having Lvl 4 will be more important as it's added to both spell and dispel rolls. I think having at least one Lvl 4 will be desired if only for the dispel bonus, and it's only a few more points by this stage. Plus having a mega sized unit of horrors isn't that bad. With a herald they'll be 4++ and 40-strong probably Stubborn as well. Coupled with general's Ld, BSB and daemonic instability you're unlikely to lose any through combat resolution. That's quite a tarpit. Almost as good as Plaguebearers, assuming the "only Ward or regeneration" rumour is true. I find it implausible (it makes regeneration on characters virtually worthless), but if it is true it'll vastly decrease the value of plaguebearers relative to Horrors or other lesser daemons.


One thing I will say though now I remember, the miscast rule for Horror's may be a massive advantage for them,(it already is really, losing d6 models is nothing) assuming that it will work in the same way in 8th, which it may not. They may be one of the few wizards that will be immune to the new miscast table, though somehow I think they might alter the rule slightly but maybe not.
I agree. And that's another reason to take horrors as your Lvl 4 wizard instead of your Greater Daemon.

Butchers and Orc shamen are the other wizards that circumvent the new miscast table as I recall.

Deetwo
04-06-2010, 18:45
Almost as good as Plaguebearers, assuming the "only Ward or regeneration" rumour is true.

It was already discredited I believe.

Nurgle blocks will be even more interesting in 8th with the stubborn thing (though that might also work against them) and new stepping up rules.. Though Palanquins will have to go, considering Look Out Sir will drop to 4+ for a cavalry model joined to infantry.

kaintxu
04-06-2010, 23:31
I'd go for Unnatural Swiftness (against all enemies that don't have ASF or initiative 7 or more, it'll be as good as Immortal Fury). After that, Etherblade is tempting. Otherwise Soul Hunger and Winged Horror are probably a good pair to round it out, although I'm not sure the Winged Horror is as requisite as it used to be.


Hi again on this topic lord XD

IF soul hanger is the slanesh gift that allows you to regain wound, it can't be purchased by a DP, since its 100, and this guys, when made from a god, are only allowed to spend 50 points on gifts the GD have, so not a choice, and it is also not avaliable on the DP entrance


It was already discredited I believe.

Nurgle blocks will be even more interesting in 8th with the stubborn thing (though that might also work against them) and new stepping up rules.. Though Palanquins will have to go, considering Look Out Sir will drop to 4+ for a cavalry model joined to infantry.

When has it been discredited? I still think is in the rumors posts.

Well I have allready said that stepping up its not that great for plaguebearers since they are kinda crappy in combat, but if they still get both saves, making a 30 big unit, will be great to make them stubborn and a great tarpit capable of holding swordmasters, or Chaos warriors gettin about
3 wound from 2 ranks of 6 Chaos warriors with alberds and 4 froms Swordmasters, but killing 2 warriors or 3 swordmasters.

Being so tough is a good thing, plus, since we are cheaper than those guys we will have 1 more rank to compensate, and thus we will be stubborn on bad rolls.

Wow actually after doind the math, if these guys dont loose one of the saves, they are going to be awesome for their price

Falkman
05-06-2010, 00:01
IF soul hanger is the slanesh gift that allows you to regain wound, it can't be purchased by a DP, since its 100, and this guys, when made from a god, are only allowed to spend 50 points on gifts the GD have, so not a choice, and it is also not avaliable on the DP entrance
Soul Hunger is the gift that allows you to re-roll failed to wound-rolls in the first round of combat.
The one you're talking about is Spirit Swallower.

Deetwo
05-06-2010, 06:46
When has it been discredited? I still think is in the rumors posts.

Looks like it was put back there afterall... But it was removed for quite a while.

That will certainly hurt Nurgle armies a lot. Combined with flaming attacks disabling regen for that turn, Trappings of Nurgle isn't really looking too hot for GUO anymore.
But suppose it will be for the better in general.. It just means that my lovely 550+ point blob of plaguebearer goodness is going on vacation in 8th :)

What I'm really wondering at the moment though, is how Blue Scribes will work with the new bound spell casting rules and spell tiers.
It seems to me that this little guy could be a bit outrageous with the new lores... Certainly something that will need a bit of clarifying.

Falkman
05-06-2010, 10:02
What I'm really wondering at the moment though, is how Blue Scribes will work with the new bound spell casting rules and spell tiers.
It seems to me that this little guy could be a bit outrageous with the new lores... Certainly something that will need a bit of clarifying.
Haha yeah, Imagine rolling something like Comet of Casandora with a cast level of 12+, then adding your own dice on top of that, superdeadly and almost impossible to dispel :D

Deetwo
05-06-2010, 10:13
Haha yeah, Imagine rolling something like Comet of Casandora with a cast level of 12+, then adding your own dice on top of that, superdeadly and almost impossible to dispel :D

As casting values increase, 12+ will be actually quite low. For instance fireball starts at 10+.. And that's just the lowest power version.

Also, Blue Scribes would be immune to miscasts..
Bound Spells apparently don't cause Lost Control, instead the caster just looses the spell, but Scribes don't actually have any :)

All that AND the power dice generation ability on top... That's a lot of bang for so little buck :D

Falkman
05-06-2010, 10:34
Sure is, I'm almost gonna feel bad about fielding them now, even though I planned the outline of the army before knowing the bound spell rules.

And I don't think casting values are all going up so much, Lore of Heavens and Life still seem to have pretty low casting values for example.
Basic spells aren't always the lowest cast value in a lore either.

Agusto
05-06-2010, 15:15
"I don't know what kind of slaanesh worshipper you are but my girls aren't from a convent... "

St. Hildegaard's Convent for Misbehaving Young Girls. A convent of Sisters of Sigmar in the southern parts of Reikland, just a bit south-west of Bogenhafen to be more precise. A quiet, peaceful nunnery, dedicated to St. Hildegaard, the famous Sister superior who so strongly believed in the virtues of chastity.

One night, after a terrible storm where part of the ancient cellars caved in, the Abbess Gertüde found a mysterious staircase, now revealed by a tumbled down wall. At the bottom was a door, behind the door a room, in the room a chest and in the chest a book. A beautiful book written in a strange and unknown language. Since the Abbess couldn't read it, she brought it to the librarian of the convent, Helga, who thought it might be of elven origin since there was local rumour that the convent had been built on the ruins of an elven temple. As it was, the librarian had some basic knowledge of elven scriptures and began translating the text. It was hard work making any sense of it. What was easier to make sense of was the illustrations, pictures the librarian knew she should have shown the Abbess since they were pretty opposite from chaste, but that she kept secret for some unknown reason.

After a while it became clear. These elves of ages long since past had in fact been praying to no other than St.Hildegaard. Although in their own way and in their own tongue. They called her another name, but there was an S, an L and two AA. Who other could it be? So out of respect for their holy, and now ancient, saint Hildegaard the librarian convinced that the ceremonies of the convent needed a slight change. Not much. Just a phrase here. And a new ritual there. After a while the clothing needed some minor alterations, and a new, stricter way of physically disciplining those who sinned was introduced. Somehow this only seemed to encourage sinning... strange...

The priestly delegation sent from Altdorf that spring to investigate why none of the noble families had received any letters from their daughters, even after the snow had melted and made the mountain passes open for travellers, was never heard of again...

Agusto.

PeG
05-06-2010, 20:24
Looks like it was put back there afterall... But it was removed for quite a while.


The first version of the rumor was one save only ie AS or Ward or Regeneration which is now believed to be incorrect. Current version is AS + Ward or Regeneration and more specifically hurts PB since hey loose one of their two saves while most characters will keep the saves they have which is typically AS + ward

Hive Fleet Spectra
06-06-2010, 17:04
It's interesting to hear your thoughts Lord Inquisitor. I think I will need to adjust how my Lord of Change is used for 8th. Either that or, as you intend, to try out a Daemon Prince and see how that works.

At least a large block of Horror's with a hearld will be a good anvil / tarpit as you say.

In terms of the blue scribes, i'm not aware of what the new bound spell rules will be like, hopefully GW will make sure to cover all the major discrepencies in the Erratas.