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PeG
01-06-2010, 16:08
Currently when engaged head to head elite infantry (usually with banner + mus+ 1 rank) will usually beat regular infantry (banner + mus + multiple ranks) due to getting more kills. Provided that the rolls ot hit and wound stay the same (which according to at least some rumors is not true) it seems like regular infantry will get a boost in this matchup in 8th due to more bodies (for the same amoun of points) and more attacks that are likely to kill at least a few elites (especially if they are not WoC elites or other high AS ones).

More bodies are of course also useful against shooting etc

Do you think that this means that a true infantry horde with lots of basic infantry bodies might actually be a viable? Also if anyone has info on the to hit and wound rolls it owuld be useful.

ROCKY
01-06-2010, 16:17
thats not actually correct all of the time. i have seen DE spearmen outdo black guard, chaos warriors destroy executioners, greatswords, and other things. saurus blocks are also great. it depends on the situation and WHICH army we are discussing. in general i think u will see bigger blocks of both. because while normally swordmasters carving up ur front rank was enough, now with the step up, they have the potential to lose some of their numbers as well, this being said, you need bigger elite units as well, they can no longer expect to win with 7 models or 10 or what have you. and dont forget big blocks of infantry (even core) are good with killy characters in the mix. my unit of marauders with HW+SH do great when they kill only 1 or 2 guys and then have a khorne champion on foot with I6 and extra handweapon (6S5 attacks). wipe out your whole front rank. hitty characters in big blocks will be the way to go.

Malorian
01-06-2010, 17:32
Elite infantry will be gods in combat but with warmachines getting better they will have a harder time getting to combat in the first place.

stuntyKing
01-06-2010, 17:36
I belive it will be around the same, shouldn't be anything to worry about

Alltaken
02-06-2010, 23:03
elite will be more chrunching. However numbers will allow you to be stubborn, that means no charge and expected run over. You might just make a stand. We have to look at costs of those units though.

goodz
02-06-2010, 23:08
Most standard infantry only have 1 attack, so fighting in 2 ranks, models removed from the back, and stubborn improve them pretty nicley, i wouldn't expect 2 ranks of elite infantry to walk over a large normal infantry block!

frapermax
10-06-2010, 16:57
Basically elites (being the best) should be able to kill normal infantry blocks but the blocks should be able to make it take a while.
This wasn't the case in 7th, hopefully that is remedied in 8th

Flash Felix
10-06-2010, 22:23
In 7th Edition, regular infantry, whether Orc Boyz, State Troops, Dwarf Warriors or whatever, regularly went down to Black Guard, Swordmasters and the like (including Chaos Warriors, who might be Core, but are elite all the way). The basic 5 SCR (3 ranks, outnumber and banner) were not enough to deal with the casualties inflicted by a high number of high strength attacks, meaning that the standard infantry would invariably break in one, maybe two, rounds.

If the rumours concerning 8th edition are true, then this changes markedly. The elites will still kill a lot of the standard troops, but removing casualties from the back means that the regulars will now get to fight back for a change; this is pretty awesome in my opinion. The 2nd rank getting 1 attack each is also a huge boost for standard troops, who normally only have 1 attack anyway. Finally, while the elites will generally win, as the standard troops will have more ranks, they should be stubborn, making it much more likely they'll hold.

The net effect of these changes is that elite troops will slaughter large numbers of regulars (as they should) but will be attrited away. After 2-3 rounds, small units of Black Guard and Swordmasters might be completely destroyed, despite having won every combat! I think this is a huge step in the right direction, and makes normal infantry a lot more viable. Bring it on I say.

I just hope that the rumours are correct....

Paraelix
10-06-2010, 23:27
Elite infantry will be gods in combat but with warmachines getting better they will have a harder time getting to combat in the first place.

How do you figure that? My Saurus with spears gain an extra rank of fighting models but retain the same attacks cos they nerfed my spears...

EDIT- Certain elite troops will be boosted. Mainly those with only 1 attack. ie Stormvermin, bestigor, white lions, phoenix guard, executioners, etc. Those already with multiple attacks probably won't benefit too much cos they're low on numbers and only recieving a handful of extra attacks... if that.

Soulx
11-06-2010, 01:34
It all depends on the situation and army. If facing hordes, more weaker units can get the hordes because the hordes are weak themselves. If playing low model count armies, elites can better be protected from the stronger firepower.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 13:29
How do you figure that? My Saurus with spears gain an extra rank of fighting models but retain the same attacks cos they nerfed my spears...

EDIT- Certain elite troops will be boosted. Mainly those with only 1 attack. ie Stormvermin, bestigor, white lions, phoenix guard, executioners, etc. Those already with multiple attacks probably won't benefit too much cos they're low on numbers and only recieving a handful of extra attacks... if that.

All will be boosted.

How did you beat elite units before? Hit them first and hit them hard. With no, or few, attacks back you could break them without too much worry.

Now with stepping up there is no way that can happen. You kill the front rank and yet the frank rank and the second still attack back.

So for spear saurus your total possible number of attack might stay the same however the number of attacks you'll get back on average will increase.

Djekar
12-06-2010, 23:21
I'm really interested to see if anyone pays for elite units in 8th. Without being able to run up and punt an opposing unit out of the way on the charge and with the changes that seem to make shooting more effective, I have a feeling elites are going to be few and far between. I'll be frank (you be Ginger) though, that's not a bad thing. I think that if elites are going to be used, it will be as the line-breaking reserves - being committed to where they are most valuable since you will likely only have 1-2 units of them as opposed to entire MSU armies of the guys.

Tomalock
13-06-2010, 05:50
Lets not overlook the fact that both sides will have elite infantry and both sides will have regular, in most cases. Its rarely the case where its one side with all regular infantry versus one side with elites. I think the big difference is that you'll see combats getting bigger as they become more protracted. If your unit of swordmasters cannot break their target in one round then you'll probably try and send in a unit to support them, or better yet use them to support your own big block of regular infantry. If the rumors are true and people shift to playstyles that are currently being discussed, then we should see lots of multi-unit combats that span several turns. I think it will be interesting, although I still plan to send in my 11 Blood Knights/ Vampires whether they have support or not! :p

Sinaris
13-06-2010, 06:20
Lets not overlook the fact that both sides will have elite infantry and both sides will have regular, in most cases. Its rarely the case where its one side with all regular infantry versus one side with elites. I think the big difference is that you'll see combats getting bigger as they become more protracted. If your unit of swordmasters cannot break their target in one round then you'll probably try and send in a unit to support them, or better yet use them to support your own big block of regular infantry. If the rumors are true and people shift to playstyles that are currently being discussed, then we should see lots of multi-unit combats that span several turns. I think it will be interesting, although I still plan to send in my 11 Blood Knights/ Vampires whether they have support or not! :p

Somtimes that suicide run of 7 Swordmasters (105 points aint that much) is worth it, they cut down a whole bunch of X unit, get wiped, or sent running with the enemy hot in persuit which allows a flank charge, or perhaps has knocked off a good chunk, depleting bodies that would have otherwise 'Stepped up' in the consequent rounds of battle with the mainstay of your army. Course there are other ways of doing these things, but its somthing to consider.

Tomalock
13-06-2010, 19:58
That is certainly true and in some situations would definatly be a viable tactic. However its not something I would base my list around given the current batch of rumors. I don't think small elite units are going to go away with 8th, as they will definatly have a place hitting flanks of units in support of bigger blocks or part of multicharges, but it seems like the days of armies of small elite units might be numbered. I'm looking forward to big brawls of lots of units. I think it will be a challanging dimension forcing people to look several turns ahead when committing troops to a fight instead of simply seeing where they will overrun into the turn the charge.

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 02:54
With you all the way Tomalock, those random charges are going to be a lot of fun, even if they cost you a game here and there. When you get that crucial double six for that gamble charge its certainly going to feel very heroic and awesome. Not far away now guys!

LordoftheBrassThrone
18-06-2010, 03:43
I think a lot will depend on the defensability of the elite unit. Elves and Khorne Daemons will suffer, as the few return attacks will kill a few. However, Chaos warriors and Dwarves will not be so affected, as the return attacks are not as likely to do damage, killing maybe a couple, rather than four or five.
For example even chaos marauders against Swordmasters, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 2.25 wounds. When before they wouldn't even have hit back. And i get a full unit of 16 marauders with shields and full command for only 100 points. For that you get 6 swordmasters with no upgrades I think?
But then Chaos Chosen against the marauders, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 1.8333 wounds, less than 1 kill after armour saves. And it may be even less than that, depending on what they get on their EotG roll.

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 03:47
I think a lot will depend on the defensability of the elite unit. Elves and Khorne Daemons will suffer, as the few return attacks will kill a few. However, Chaos warriors and Dwarves will not be so affected, as the return attacks are not as likely to do damage, killing maybe a couple, rather than four or five.
For example even chaos marauders against Swordmasters, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 2.25 wounds. When before they wouldn't even have hit back. And i get a full unit of 16 marauders with shields and full command for only 100 points. For that you get 6 swordmasters with no upgrades I think?
But then Chaos Chosen against the marauders, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 1.8333 wounds, less than 1 kill after armour saves. And it may be even less than that, depending on what they get on their EotG roll.

But the game isn't about my unit vs your unit. There is an entire army to consider... Along with pychology, magic, shooting, etc.

LordoftheBrassThrone
18-06-2010, 08:13
But the game isn't about my unit vs your unit. There is an entire army to consider... Along with pychology, magic, shooting, etc.

Well yes, but its hard enough to predict a combat without inducing all that madness. I just wanted a head to head example to demonstrate my point.

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 08:59
Well yes, but its hard enough to predict a combat without inducing all that madness. I just wanted a head to head example to demonstrate my point.

True enough... But too many people just posting "Oh hey lolz, my unit of 50-100 models is totes unbeatable, yo..."

And in many cases... it dies horribly... to something really obvious.

madden
18-06-2010, 10:55
My slayers will actually get to fight insteed of dying a rank at a time with no return attacks now they will finally kicka@&.

ASTINOFF
15-11-2010, 00:05
My slayers will actually get to fight insteed of dying a rank at a time with no return attacks now they will finally kicka@&.

You are totally right about the defenseless slayers, now we hit hard in return.

The thing here is, your play an army, not defenseless units without support, the one who play it this way (solitary) give a great advantage to his opponent. The solution is which elite with regular army works better together against other enemy units.

logan054
15-11-2010, 00:52
I'm really interested to see if anyone pays for elite units in 8th. Without being able to run up and punt an opposing unit out of the way on the charge and with the changes that seem to make shooting more effective, I have a feeling elites are going to be few and far between. I'll be frank (you be Ginger) though, that's not a bad thing. I think that if elites are going to be used, it will be as the line-breaking reserves - being committed to where they are most valuable since you will likely only have 1-2 units of them as opposed to entire MSU armies of the guys.

Well I use Chaos warriors and I can happily say a unit of 18 with MoK and great weapons as no problems breaking even the most strongest units of the charge. I actually had mine kill 3 ranks of dwarfs in a single round of combat :D