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shutupSHUTUP!!!
26-05-2005, 02:27
For the purpose of using the Empire magic item, Van Horstmann's Speculum, where the character switches stats with the character/unit champion, can I challenge a lone character on his own?

Lordmonkey
26-05-2005, 02:41
You can always challenge a lone character. Furthermore, a lone character can never refuse a challenge, so van horstmaans speculum will work.

Sylass
26-05-2005, 09:48
Just remember that a character can only issue or accept a challenge if he's in a fighting position.


*edit*
spelling

macbeth
26-05-2005, 09:56
There is something I wonder. If a lonely character is riding a monster, can he refuse?

Let's take an example. A High Elf lord is riding a dragon. He fights against a big units of skeletons led by a Blood Dragon vampire lord. The elf is going to be beaten in combat against teh vampire. Can he refuse to fight, and let his dragon fight alone, as if they compose a unit made of two creatures: the rider and the dragon?

HighElfGeneral
26-05-2005, 10:18
u only get off chariots in a challenge so no he cant let his dragon get beasted by the vampire

taer
26-05-2005, 17:10
I'm not sure what HighElfGeneral was aiming at but, No, a character riding a monster cannot refuse a challenge if he is not with a unit. However, why would you? You have a *******' dragon!

Lordmonkey
26-05-2005, 18:07
I'm not sure what HighElfGeneral was aiming at but, No, a character riding a monster cannot refuse a challenge if he is not with a unit. However, why would you? You have a *******' dragon!

A blood dragon vampire lord can easily laugh off a dragons clumsy attacks, hit back and shred the elf. I wouldn't accept unless it was VERY likely the elf would kill the blood dragon.

taer
26-05-2005, 19:31
Enter the null stone. No high elf on a dragon should be without one.

Archaon
30-05-2005, 22:43
No..he couldn't hide behind a Dragon. Characters can only refuse a challenge if there's a unit with them in which case he is being put in the last rank andoesn't fight or give Leadership support.

If however challenged his mount (in this case the Dragon) will fight in the challenge too. It is always a hoot deciding if i take out the Monster since i know its stats and "equipment" (i.e. scales) and can precalculate my odds or if i go for the hero but i don't know his equipment which may well save him from all of my hits.

Imbroglio
01-06-2005, 15:39
If you don't have a unit, and you're in combat, you have to be in a fighting position, and thus you must accept the challenge. At this juncture the vast majority of characters deserve to die for being crazy enough to be wandering around on their own.

If you do have a unit, I see no good reason for refusing a challenge, so long as you've paid for a champion. The uber killer on the other side can take out his frustration murdering that guy, while your not-quite-so-uber killer can concentrate on the enemy regiment.

Regards,

-- Imbroglio

T10
02-06-2005, 11:03
I seem to recall having read the challenge rules a while ago that you cannot if fact claim overkill bonus for attacks agaisnt the monster mount.

Care to comment?

-T10

Festus
02-06-2005, 13:48
Yes:

Comment: Nonsense: Every wound in a Challenge counts up to the starting number of wounds and 5 more for overkill.

Greetings

Festus

Major Defense
02-06-2005, 17:27
I seem to recall having read the challenge rules a while ago that you cannot if fact claim overkill bonus for attacks agaisnt the monster mount.

Care to comment?

-T10

If you roll all of your hits against the rider and find that you've killed him then you wouldn't have a chance to hit the mount. Any hits allocated to the mount initially would not count toward overkill in the challenge.

gukal
02-06-2005, 17:36
If you roll all of your hits against the rider and find that you've killed him then you wouldn't have a chance to hit the mount. Any hits allocated to the mount initially would not count toward overkill in the challenge.

This response surprises me Major. What is the basis for this statement?

Major Defense
02-06-2005, 20:05
This response surprises me Major. What is the basis for this statement?

Um...because T10 asked?

Perhaps you wonder why I think that wounds against the mount would not count as part of the overkill? If you kill the rider then the challenge ends and the mount makes it's reaction from losing the rider. You don't continue fighting the challenge between your character and the mount so the rest is easy to assume.

gukal
02-06-2005, 20:28
Um...because T10 asked?

Perhaps you wonder why I think that wounds against the mount would not count as part of the overkill? If you kill the rider then the challenge ends and the mount makes it's reaction from losing the rider. You don't continue fighting the challenge between your character and the mount so the rest is easy to assume.

So if this is true, I'd be wise to resolve my attacks against the monstrous mount first eh? Since all my attacks are likely at the same Initiative value, they are technically resolved simultaneously and I thought would count in the challenge as well. Am I wrong to be thinking along these lines?

- Gukal

Major Defense
02-06-2005, 22:07
So if this is true, I'd be wise to resolve my attacks against the monstrous mount first eh? Since all my attacks are likely at the same Initiative value, they are technically resolved simultaneously and I thought would count in the challenge as well. Am I wrong to be thinking along these lines?

- Gukal

Not really. If you expend all of your attacks on the mount then you're still in the challenge with the character who has been attacking you the whole time. Now you have to kill him too! It'd be wiser to kill him first and then even if the mount doesn't flee you're out of the challenge.

Another thing, all of your attacks are at the same initiative value (the character's initiative statistic) at all times and no matter what you are attacking. Remember that the challenge is between the two characters and the mount just happens to be involved in the fight because one of the characters is riding him. The only reason I can think of to kill the mount first is if you thought you could kill the mount in one turn but the character would probably take longer.

mageith
03-06-2005, 04:14
I seem to recall having read the challenge rules a while ago that you cannot if fact claim overkill bonus for attacks agaisnt the monster mount.

Care to comment?

-T10
In the BRB? Where did you read this?

T10
03-06-2005, 11:53
In the BRB? Where did you read this?

It is not so much a statement to the effect that "oh, by the way - the overkill bonus doesn't apply when it comes to excess wounds on the mount". It is more a matter of it being generally assumed that they do count towards overkill bonus even though no such provision is explicitly stated.

Wounds caused against the mount will typically count towards combat resolution, that is true. But the overkill bonus?

Fluff-wise: An Empire Elector Count on a pegasus engages the enemy. The Chaos Hero issues a challenge and proceeds to chop the Pegasus into so many pieces that the PETA would condemn with a worldwide full-frontal nudity campaign. The Elector Count is completely unscathed. What is the more important - the viscious manner in which a flying horse died, or the fact that their general is still up and about?

-T10

Falkman
03-06-2005, 12:38
The uber killer on the other side can take out his frustration murdering that guy, while your not-quite-so-uber killer can concentrate on the enemy regiment.
Doesnīt the rules for challenges state that only the participants in the challenge fight, and the rest of the troops in the units involved just stand and watch the fight?

Festus
03-06-2005, 13:00
Hi

Doesnīt the rules for challenges state that only the participants in the challenge fight, and the rest of the troops in the units involved just stand and watch the fight?
No.
The rest of the unit fights the other enemies (if any).

And I see the confusion caused by Major defense's post:
He is talking about two consecutive rounds of combat...

because in the same round, it does't matter if you allocate hits to the character or mount, as they are the same model. But if you slay the character, the mount will be just that afterwards: a mount.
As such it can neither accept nor refuse a challenge in the following rounds, as it can neither challenge nor be challenged.

Greetings
Festus

Falkman
03-06-2005, 13:02
No.
The rest of the unit fights the other enemies (if any).
Ah, yeah, thatīs how it was, they fight but they cannot touch the challengers.
We actually play it like that, I just got momentary brainlock :p

T10
03-06-2005, 16:07
In the BRB? Where did you read this?


Finally, with the rule book in front of me I can check this again.

p.99, "Overkill!"

The section consistently refers to the character and unlike the "Fighting a Challenge" section makes no provisions for monsters or chariots. It seems that brutally slaying a Pegasus will simply net you the three wounds - no overkill bonus.

-T10

mageith
04-06-2005, 01:52
Finally, with the rule book in front of me I can check this again.

p.99, "Overkill!"

The section consistently refers to the character and unlike the "Fighting a Challenge" section makes no provisions for monsters or chariots. It seems that brutally slaying a Pegasus will simply net you the three wounds - no overkill bonus.

-T10
Chariots are explicitly provided for. There is no need for duplication.

Monsters are merely a piece of character equipment. That's how they are purchased.

Your interpretation is based on an assumption. I believe your assumption is ill-founded. The assumption is that the monster mount is somehow separate from the character. My assumption is that they are one and same due to the method in which they are purchased.

It isn't exactly clear how this works in the rules. I think your way is more awkward. If a monster does not count as character, then it can't be attacked in a challenge, since only characters can fight.

The specific rule reads this way: "Any excess wounds when fighting a challenge do count..." (99)

Certainly you'll agree that the monster is fighting in the challenge, is it not?

I guess the question comes down to the exact moment the character and monster are separated when death does part them. I'd say its at the end of the combat round, not in the middle of it.

Taken to its illogical extreme, your intepretation can make a monster immune from attacks from anyone or unable to attack depending on timing.

As I said, its far from clear, so I'll leave it at that.

Ith

T10
04-06-2005, 11:04
My assumption is basedon the fact that the character and mount are indeed separate. They have separate profiles, they attack and are attacked separately. I do not think that is too far fetched.

The assumption that overkill wounds cand be scored by obliterating a weak mount is based on the rule you quoted. However, in its immediate context that refers to the character.

As far as rendering the (monster) mount immune to be attacked or unable make attacks... Well. I can't really see that as an issue with regards to the overkill bonus.

-T10

Lady's Champion
04-06-2005, 14:05
If I were you I'd always accept a challenge.

I have never ever refused a challenge- I feel a more fun game is had.

Flame
05-06-2005, 13:45
There are sometimes tactical reasons to refuse a challenge...

Lostanddamned
05-06-2005, 16:21
Like when a totally rubbish warrior champion walks up to archaon with one survivng chaos knight and challenges him, for the 15th game in a row.

Flame
05-06-2005, 19:26
Or when somebody with the rending sword walks up to your poor little champion...