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Griffery
05-06-2010, 03:43
So... I am losing faith in Dark Elves fast. Yes, I believe there magic is quite good, but that is not enough. They can never really last in combat for me. Black Guard can't do enough damage for me. 2 S4 atks each is alright, but when they fight units, and they attack, the casualties are normally pretty high. I like taking executioners with a BSB hydra banner with them, but that is only one unit. The only thing I can really think of is a hydra, but my opponent normally targets it and so it doesn't really stand a chance. Also, I think Reaper bolt throwers are good, but a couple can't shoot enough to really change the game. I always take crossbowmen for my core, but they always seem to be hitting on 5s or 6s, which just doesn't cut it. Are there any tips tell help me get over this hump of mine, specifically for combat, and slightly for shooting.

vorthain
05-06-2010, 04:00
Are you comparing them to something in particular? Black Guard, which you are unimpressed with, but out 14 attack with a seven-wide frontage, with rerolls to hit in all combat rounds. Add a champion and banner for ASF or AP, and it puts out an ungodly amount of hurt. The Hydra Banner will improve any unit, and unless you get the charge, the Black Guard unit will be better. Corsairs put out a lot of attacks, especially while frenzied. Shooting can be overwhelming between Dark Riders, Shades, and RXB. The to-hit roll is low because you're probably double shooting all the time; shoot once for more accuracy (but lower potential damage output).

Finally, of course, use your movement to avoid hitting the enemy in the front.

Heimagoblin
05-06-2010, 09:40
In an army as fast and as elite as dark elves you don't need multiples of units doing the same thing. Black guard, spearmen, cold one chariots, knights and the hyda for combat, repater bolt throwers, repeater crossbowmen and shades for shooting and magic offence or ring of hotek.

You need to play a few games with them but they work because there units can do what they do best almost all of the time and are generally underpriced. If you can't get much out of the army you are either using a very fluffy list or are a bad player.

tmarichards
05-06-2010, 13:50
Take a Cauldron, they're great. Much better points value than a Hydra Banner BSB.

If you like Black Guard, take a unit of 13-15 with a champion with Crimson Death/Ring of Hotek, a standard bearer with the Armour Piercing banner and a Master BSB with the Standard of Hag Graef. This unit will much pretty much anything that comes into it, 7 wide it can throw out 6 S6 attack and 10 S4 attacks, all of which are armour piercing and all except 3 of the S6 attacks can re-roll every turn. Even Dragon Princes will get munched.

How are you using the hydra? If I'm against anything with reliable multi-wound artillery it tends to just lurk and control board space while my harpies/dark riders/shades deal with the threats, or I throw it out with a chariot and the Black Guard so my opponent has too many targets. On that note, Cold One chariots are awesome.

Your to hit rolls may be high, but don't forget you're throwing out twice as many shots per model than every other army. If you want to be hitting more easily, stop taking xbow core and take a couple of units of shades. Take Dark Riders with xbows and musicians for core, or if you want a combat army take Warrior blocks with assassins (tooled up however you like).

DruchiiMagic
05-06-2010, 14:38
Let me be the first to point you to the main Dark Elves boards...

http://www.druchii.net/

I suggest taking a look at the tactics thread there, most specifically the D.R.A.I.C.H.

Blackguard are currently amazing out of the Dark Elf book, you have to remember they need to strike first though. We are elves and do not take damage well.

I generally run my BG with a unit of 14, 7 wide, with champion with crimson death, full command, and banner of Hag Graef.

SilentAsparagus
16-06-2010, 11:35
As you know all the DE's are T3, so we all know they can't take much punishment. Two ways to avoid it really. 1, as stated make sure they are always going to hit first so to minimise the damage they have to take.

the second option is my perfered method, use your M5 to work the flanks. Use the amazingly good Cold Ones and the Dark Riders, use Spearmen to charge in and aim to loose the combat and so run away, dragging their units out of the line and exposing yet more flanks. once any DE player gets amongst the flanks the rest of the battler should be a formality.

As for the hydra think of it this way. They are using all their shooting and probably magic as well to take down the hydra (and it's not easy) but that means they are not shooting at your actual army. By the time it should be down then your into combat and they cant shoot you anyway.

Ahh the Joy of Dark Elves, armoured in Tissue paper and Nightmares. You have to think tacticaly with them in combat.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 12:17
DE are just terrible on any turn they don't charge. I've, on several occasions, charged into combat and won by 10, 11 or 12 points, then after an Insane Courage roll or against Unbreakables like Undead, win the very next round by 2 and then start loosing from their after. It's amazing!

Even Wood Elves, who rely on ACR to win fights, never suffer that kind of disparity between charging and not. They at least have the profile Stats to stay effective in drawn out combats. Arguably, I'd say shooting is that much more important to DE than WE, for just that reason.

I agree about the Hydra as well. The book is over 2 years old and , in spite of the ubiquitous complaining, most people have figured out how to neutralize the Hydra. Subsequently, I also agree that RBTs are good, but not great in pairs. For those reasons I play a lot of games without a Hydra and with 3 RBTs. 4 RBTs is excessive, but 3 is perfect in my opinion, and most people are happier to see that than a Hydra, especially in a Dragon list.

Post your list. I think you and I are approaching the army in much the same way. Maybe if I saw what you were working with I could help you with some of the lessons I've learned.

Demandrer
16-06-2010, 22:20
Willowdark can you post your list so i can have a look?

willowdark
17-06-2010, 05:31
Sure.

I haven't even thought about 7th ed for over a month, since I've had all my attention on preparing for 8th, but strictly from memory... here we go.

Supreme Sorceress Lvl4 on Pegasus w/ Pendant, Focus Familiar and scroll.

Sorceress Lvl2 on Steed w/ Tome of Furion and Powerstone.

Assassin w/ Extra hand weapon, Cloak of Twilight, Rune of Khaine and Manbane.

Core:

20 Warriors w/ shields, full command and Warbanner.
2x10 RxB's w/ shields.
3x5 Harpies.

Special:

6 Cold One Knights w/ full command, the Standard of Slaughter and the Ring of Hotek.
9 Shades w/ Great Weapons and champ.
Cold One Chariot.

Rare:

Hydra
2 RBTs.

Now that's what I consider to be a pretty mild list and I have a fairly even win/loss ratio. The Assassin goes with the Warriors to give them ASF damage output so that I can impose them on the middle. With RoK and Manbane he can even be effective against Ogre class infantry. If the enemy has a big monster like a Steg or Dragon I run him with the shades, soften him up with some shooting and then Steed of shadow launch him into it to finish him off.

I run the Hydra and the Knights together so they both get protection from the ring and concentrate shooting and magic as much as I can on the same targets.

Now, for no Hydra and 3 RBTs I also run.

Dreadlord on Dragon w/ Pendant, Armour of Darkness and Crimson Death.

Scroll caddie w/ 2 scrolls

Assassin w/ Extra hand weapon, Rune of Khaine and Manbane, no Cloak.

Core:

2x5 Dark Riders w/ musicians and no RxBs.
2x10 RxBs with no shields.
20 Warriors w/ shields, full commad and Warbanner.

6 Cold One Knights w/ full command, the Standard of Slaughter and the Ring of Hotek.
7 Shades with Great Weapons and no champ.
Cold One Chariot.

3 RBTs.

That's a really fun list and my regular opponents love playing it. The CoK with the SoS is where the biggest discrepency lies between winning big in the first round and lossing there after if the enemy stands.

Ask some questions if you want. It's a little hard to elaborate further without some promting.

Demandrer
17-06-2010, 08:18
Looks good mate. Was considering using your first list mentioned but unsure about how effective magic will be now with miscast and maximum power dice of 12 with every team easily getting a good 6 dispel dice. (But then we can make more power dice:))

Was considering using a block of 20 corsairs for there attack output with handbows they would also get 40 double tapping stand and shoot shots off and then would strike first in combat against most things!

Also debating whether a unit of 14 Executioners or blackguard are worth the points with two ranks of 7 and banner of Hag Graeth so they hit first?

I like the idea with shades with great weapons and the cok and hydra with ring of hotek supporting each other will defo use that!

SilentAsparagus
25-06-2010, 13:16
Do you not think 3 unts of Harpies just a mite exsessive?

willowdark
25-06-2010, 16:06
None of my opponents do, so neither do I, especially since that list doesn't have DR in it. I think in the grand scheme of things DR are much more annoying than Harpies.

Oh! and the second dragon list has 2 units of 5 Harpies as well.