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twisted_mentat
26-05-2005, 06:48
This isn't really a rumor (at least from my POV), but we were duscussing the new Carnifex and its biomorphs and it was brought to my attention that the Carni can possible have 13 attacks on the charge! (yes!) These means that even if you have a powerfist in that marine squad to deal with big nasty stuff in CC isn't so good....as 10 man marine squads could get squished like...well, bugs.

Now My reaction to this was "But you can't ever have a Stat higher than 10..."
"But this isn't a stat" i was told, "the attacks on the profile remain less than 10, its the random attacks generated by the Claws that gives the possibly for more that 10 attacks".

Very intresting! This Carni though is about as much as a land raider, and all its Biomorphs are geared towards this.

I'm trying to remmeber exactly what it was...

Base attacks 2
Scything Talons +1
Crushing Claws + D6
Bioplasma +1
Mace tail +1
Charging +1
Theres something else...was it having 2 CC weapons? I wish i could remember...but stil its very intresting...as i've never ever seen anything that had more thant 10+ attacks....

AngelofSorrow
26-05-2005, 06:53
OH my LORD thats pure insanity but I have lots of Lascannons so i would have to make sure that thing doesnt get near me unless ur gonna tell me next it has wings too

Brimstone
26-05-2005, 07:12
It goes like this.

Base 2
Scytals +1
Crushing Claws D6
Bioplasma +1 (with restrictions)
Tusked +2 on the charge
Scythe Tail D3 (at half strength)

So assuming you make all the max rolls and you have enough oponents to use the tail attacks (there are restrictions) you can have a maximum of 15 attacks on the charge.

Costs far less than a Land Raider though but that's without some of the sexier biomorphs.

Edit - Oh Bioplasma as well I didn't count that so thats 15 in total.

Yaro
26-05-2005, 07:12
The Tusked upgrade gives them 2 attacks on the charge.

twisted_mentat
26-05-2005, 07:43
That was it. I knew i was missing something.

Yea, the one that costs as much as a land raider also has extended carapace, and some other biomorphs that enable it to survive long enough to try to have that many attacks.

Brimstone
26-05-2005, 07:49
Yea, the one that costs as much as a land raider also has extended carapace, and some other biomorphs that enable it to survive long enough to try to have that many attacks.

Yup, a Uber Fex with all the bells and whistles can cost 250 pts quite easily.

Castigator
26-05-2005, 07:54
/shrug..

not like anyone would have considered taking on a Carnifex in Close Combat a smart strategy before, ... right?

Just blast it away and be done with it.

Great Harlequin
26-05-2005, 07:58
Thats even more dangerous than a tooled up solitaire :eek:

I suppose they will be giving Carnifexes wings now :p

thanoson
26-05-2005, 08:00
This sounds tasty. I really hope they get seeding swarm down the way. Imagine that dropping down next to a squad.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-05-2005, 08:13
I'm still of the opinion that attacks cannot go over 10, just like any other stat, regardless of modifiers, just like any other stat.

thanoson
26-05-2005, 08:35
Nope, I don't think that's ever been the case before. You could always have more attacks i believe.

Yorkiebar
26-05-2005, 08:46
With this many upgrades available, I might just make three 500 point superfexes and back them up with a few gaunt broods, biovores and lictors (for killing lascannon troops and tanks before the carnifexes are killed). One of them's bound to survive if they both have extra toughness, an extra wound, warp field and regenerate. :evilgrin: It'd be a lot cheaper than a horde army, too.

EDIT: Note that I am actually serious about this. The army will probably end up like this:
BROODLORD + GENESTEALER RETINUE
3 LICTORS
2 RIPPER SWARM BROODS
3 SUPERFEXES


Nope, I don't think that's ever been the case before. You could always have more attacks i believe.
Yes, besides, the INITIAL attack characteristic isn't changing, it's just special attacks and modifiers.

Duymon
26-05-2005, 09:01
The thought of that carnifex getting into close combat is scary. I don't think it'll last long enough to make it most of the time though heh heh :D

Scythe
26-05-2005, 09:26
However to use the scythe tail (or any tail for that mather) you need to contact at least 4 enemies when charging, and even with the carnifexes large base, that's really hard to accomplish (unless the opponent has counter charge of course :evilgrin: ). Also, the scythe tail only hits at half S and the bio-plasma allows armour saves.

Still, it's a nasty (tough expensive) piece of work, especially since a carnifex with adrenal glands and toxic miasma is going to hit marines and the like on 3s....

Barbarossa
26-05-2005, 09:52
A friend of mine VDRed a Chaos dread with about as much attacks, but a dread can be taken down more easily. This terrorfex is insane!

Wiseman
26-05-2005, 10:00
thats alot of attacks, a scary amount of them, so scary that im sure it will never get to use them in CC

Scythe
26-05-2005, 10:04
That could be true; foot slogging at 6" a turn isn't really helpfull for a combat monster.

On the other hand, unlike Necrons/C'tan, the Tyranids have plenty of fast units to keep the enemy busy until your heavy hitter arrives...

Nurgling Chieftain
26-05-2005, 10:31
Yes, besides, the INITIAL attack characteristic isn't changing, it's just special attacks and modifiers.It's not the initial characteristic that's capped, though, it's the total - per every precedent available (strength, initiative, leadership, and so forth).

Scythe
26-05-2005, 10:37
It nowhere states the attack stat is limited to 10 tough as far as I know.

And even then; when is this going to occur gamewise? You have to get into base contact with 4 models on your charge (assuming you get the charge in the first place), then roll a 6 for crushing claws attacks, and then roll a 5-6 on your scythe tail attacks. That all assuming you slogged over the table with 6" a turn and survived the las/plas death that was undoubtly raining down on you. Limited odds indeed.

Cheitan Shadowless
26-05-2005, 16:36
Base attacks 2
Scything Talons +1
Crushing Claws + D6
Bioplasma +1
Mace tail +1
Charging +1
The D6 attacks from Crushing claws replace the 2 base attacks, so one of these cannot be included in this equation...just a small tidbit. :p

Wez
26-05-2005, 16:44
It moves 6 inches a turn. There's really not that much to worry about.

Even on the off chance it makes it into combat (5 wounds, T7, 2+ save and regenerate still isn't going to be that hard to kill, esp. for the amount of points it costs!), you need to roll very well to get that number of attacks. Even if you make it into combat with that number of attacks, you now need to find something to kill that's 250+pts to get your points back, which, suffice to say, is unlikely.

Also, a rant of crushing claws. 25pts and it gives you, on average, 1.5 more attacks. :wtf: Yes, you could get 6, but you're just as likely to get one. For those 25pts you could get 2 sets of scything talons and a tail upgrade! I won’t even comment on how it makes the model look like a disabled chicken…

All in all, I see little reason to take a Carnifex over a hive tyrant, unless you max it out or want the S8/10 long range weapons. Whoopdido. You get S9. The hive tyrant is cheaper, is a synapse creature, has better WS, I, BS and A. I don't think I'm even going to use a Carnifex and if I do, it's because of the model, not the rules.

Spout a few stats about what a new model could do and everyone gets worked up.


Base 2
Scytals +1
Crushing Claws D6
Bioplasma +1 (with restrictions)
Tusked +2 on the charge
Scythe Tail D3 (at half strength)
Nope, you lose base attacks with crushing claws.

-Wez

Str10_hurts
26-05-2005, 16:47
jup, 13 attacks max and 7 attacks min, on the charge.

But why wont it be effective:
6'' movement
no shooting option anymore
mayor point sink
If upgraided to survuive to combat you are nearing 300 points!

(but then again damn nasty if it ever makes it)

Wez
26-05-2005, 17:07
jup, 13 attacks max and 7 attacks min, on the charge.

Min 6 attacks I believe.

2 (charge)
1 (bioplasma)
1 (scything talons)
1 (tail)
1 (crushing claws)

-Wez

Str10_hurts
26-05-2005, 17:21
Min 6 attacks I believe.

2 (charge)
1 (bioplasma)
1 (scything talons)
1 (tail)
1 (crushing claws)

-Wez

My fault, your right.

DrkAp0stle
27-05-2005, 00:49
Thats just wrong in so so many ways. I wonder if my word bearers could stand up to that...



-Ap0stle

Negafex
27-05-2005, 02:42
could the fex get scuddling? that improves movement doesnt it? either way i usually take a strangler and well who am i kidding i take 2 stranglers but with this new setup crushing claws and devourers looks pretty sickeningly lethal as well

on a side note i play both nids and chaos and realize now that the word bearers would lose that fight...badly the dark gods would be ashamed of my betrayal...or encourage it not sure which.............

Nurgling Chieftain
27-05-2005, 03:50
It nowhere states the attack stat is limited to 10 tough as far as I know.All stats are. Some of the others just remind you a lot, because it's so much easier to reach that point.

Scythe
27-05-2005, 18:39
Thats just wrong in so so many ways. I wonder if my word bearers could stand up to that...

-Ap0stle

As long as you have a nice fat unit of rending daemonettes, you shouldn't have that much of a problem. A hidden fist, lascannon and plasma gun here and there might also help.


could the fex get scuddling? that improves movement doesnt it? either way i usually take a strangler and well who am i kidding i take 2 stranglers but with this new setup crushing claws and devourers looks pretty sickeningly lethal as well

on a side note i play both nids and chaos and realize now that the word bearers would lose that fight...badly the dark gods would be ashamed of my betrayal...or encourage it not sure which.............

Nope, no movement upgrades (or scuttling) at all for the carnifex. Good on one side. Imagine the whinning of non-nid players.... :D

mangustheix
27-05-2005, 22:55
All stats are. Some of the others just remind you a lot, because it's so much easier to reach that point.

While it does say that "characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10", it does not say that they are limited to those numbers through modification. I do understand that other stats are limited, but I have not found any mention of stats in general been limited. Neither can I find a mention of Attacks been limited anywhere.

I can understand where you are coming from but I just cant find a rule to support it (I do not think that the above statement is limiting, but guidance to the scale of the statistics).

Me personally I would be happy to face a Carni with those attacks, it represents the fact that they are big hulking terrors which trail death and distruction.

The Machine GoD
27-05-2005, 22:59
Yes your normal attacks u can get through upgrades is max 10. However you can get more attacks via charge. So if you have a base 10 attacks you can get +2 on the charge. Also how do you judge a random attack variable. Also other models can over the term of close combat get easily over 10 attacks. Example that eldar who keeps swinging till he misses.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-05-2005, 23:49
While it does say that "characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10", it does not say that they are limited to those numbers through modification.That's precisely backwards. What it doesn't say is that that limitation can be exceeded by modification, or that it only applies to base scores, or anything else that implies that it's some kind of "soft" limit.

Additionally, there is a huge weight of precedence that other stats cannot be modified over 10 by any means, and no exceptions, modifications, etc., apply.

The Machine GoD: I would resolve those the same way they're resolved for other attributes, i.e., an absolute cap at 10 regardless of source, circumstances, randomnity, or other factors. Consider strength: you can get bonus strength on the charge, random strengths, doubling strengths, and so on and so forth, but the maximum after all modifiers is clearly and explicitly 10. While the rule in that case is reiterated in a lot of places, at it's root it's the exact same rule.

Inquis. Jaeger
28-05-2005, 01:20
This isn't the first time this has popped up. Lest we forget the 13-attack librarian -

3 basic
1 charging
1 termie honours
1 2 ccws
3 poss for might of heroes
3 poss for might of heroes of second librarian attached to primary librarian's command squad
1 for chaplain's reveal of relic - chaplain attached to primary librarian command squad.

This throws up several points - again, this is ridiculously costly to pull off, similar to an uber-carnifex. Secondly, it takes attacks above 10, proving it is possible. Remember - great is the impact of the negative circumstance. You say - stats may NEVER be taken above ten. If 1 can be, this disproves this. Like saying "all swans are white". If you try to test a million swans and all come up white, then I find one black one, this disproves the point.

I guess my general gist is that it seems, and certainly without hard evidence to the contrary, attacks may go above 10. Certainly nothing in the Tyranid codex precludes this? If attacks above 10 were impossible, surely this would be the place for it to be mentioned?

hairyman
28-05-2005, 01:34
Consider strength: you can get bonus strength on the charge, random strengths, doubling strengths, and so on and so forth, but the maximum after all modifiers is clearly and explicitly 10. While the rule in that case is reiterated in a lot of places, at it's root it's the exact same rule.

Can you name a specific example where you could get strength past 10? I'm struggling to think of one.....

IMO strength, toughness, WS, BS and weapon strengths are limited by the game system to 10 or below. Attacks aren't (willing to be proved wrong, though), so therefore I can't see why you couldn't get a fex with 11, 12, 13 or however many attacks. I'm sure the chaos codex could produce some hardnut prince with an equal number of hits?

Modern_Angel
28-05-2005, 02:13
If attacks arre limited to 10, does this mean you stop rolling for extra attacks with a Khorne Lord using Axe of Khorne once you reach 10? Not as far as I know, you keep rolling until yuo stop rolling 6's, I've seen 15+ attacks from a lord like this in games before.

That example would indicate there is no limits to the number of attacks someone could do in one round of combat.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-05-2005, 02:31
This isn't the first time this has popped up.And I've argued it every single time. ;) (Well, almost. I've never weighed in on attacks taken after the main set, like the Axe of Khorne; I'm not entirely convinced either way on that one so I don't bother arguing it.)


Secondly, it takes attacks above 10, proving it is possible.That doesn't prove anything about what the rule says.


You say - stats may NEVER be taken above ten.It's about the rules. What I say is just my opinion of what the rules say.


If 1 can be, this disproves this. Like saying "all swans are white". If you try to test a million swans and all come up white, then I find one black one, this disproves the point.But that would be an explicit proof. You have no explicit proof in this case - there is no example in all of 40k of a rule saying that a stat explicitly may go above 10. And even if you did, an explicit exception would not override a general rule.

In short, I think your example is entirely irrelevant except as another case where attacks would be capped.


Can you name a specific example where you could get strength past 10? I'm struggling to think of one.....The basic dreadnought, for starters. IIRC Slaaneshi chaos lords can do it, too (daemonic strength, furious charge, power fist, combat drugs). The Zzzap gun is a ranged weapon example.

People used to argue about Enhance on the Avatar until the FAQ - and it's essentially the exact same argument, yet another example on the side of bonuses-to-stats can't take them above 10.


IMO strength, toughness, WS, BS and weapon strengths are limited by the game system to 10 or below. Attacks aren't (willing to be proved wrong, though)...The things is, the rule that limits S, T, WS, and BS doesn't specify those stats, it says all of 'em. If you accept that Strength and Weapon Skill are limited to 10, I don't see a rules-based reason to exempt attacks.

Cloudscape_online
28-05-2005, 02:46
Page 12 states that the characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10.

In the attacks description on page 12, it states that the number of attacks can be increased if it charges or has extra weapons.

Nowhere does it say that the total limit is 10, just that the base stat has a total limit of 10.

On page 40, Attacks, there is no mention of an attack limit (unlike powerfist S limit) In fact it says that the model gets the attacks on its profile plus bonus attacks for charging and having extra weapons.

[The powerfist has a limitation of (up to a maximum of 10) included in its rules. If an item were to add +1S to attacks made, the trooper could hit for S11. if the item boosted the users S by +1, he would still only hit for 10]

In case you're wondering, yes my 40k rulebook does live on the bookshelf next to my PC, so it's not difficult for me to reference check every 30 seconds.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-05-2005, 03:00
In the attacks description on page 12, it states that the number of attacks can be increased if it charges or has extra weapons.The rulebook states that in interchangeable ways, leading me to think that there is no meaningful distinction. (This came up in the last discussion on the subject, which involved chaos lords.)


Nowhere does it say that the total limit is 10, just that the base stat has a total limit of 10.
Nowhere does it say that just the base stat's limit is 10, rather that the total limit is 10.


The powerfist has a limitation of (up to a maximum of 10) included in its rules.My position is that that's a restatement of the general rule in a case where it's relatively easy to exceed the limit. Similar cases have been updated to do so, as well. There are no cases of the general rule being explicitly overridden.


If an item were to add +1S to attacks made, the trooper could hit for S11.Good luck finding that on the to-wound chart. ;)

Cloudscape_online
28-05-2005, 03:15
I guess there's no point in hitting for 11 because most things would turn to mush anyways, and most things that add to S, increase the users S, not the S of the attack.

The troopers basic stats can be anywhere between 0 and 10. If something else is raising that beyond 10, then it will work because there is no *limit* on the stats. Where does it say that there is a limit in the rulebook? I cannot find it, so you reference it for me and when I find it I will confirm that it is true.

Most equipment and some weapons have "limiting factors" such as the Powerfist or the Zzap gun, and they reference this point because that item or weapon *creates* a limit for the purpose of that item. Otherwise the item wouldn't bother because it would state in the rules that the maximum limit for every stat is 10 regardless of anything.

And it doesn't say that. Anywhere.

Rabid Bunny 666
28-05-2005, 03:15
its only the BASE characteristics, because many a khorne lord has
3 basic
doubled to 6 by beserker glaive
+D3 for rage of khorne
+1 for mark of khorne
+1 for daemonic mutation
=11

Cloudscape_online
28-05-2005, 03:20
Just like that. The rulebook has base rules that are built upon or broken by codexes and special abilities. In the librarians example, normally there is a limit to how good he can be, but in special circumstances he can exceed beyond the capabilities of the physical realm.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-05-2005, 04:51
The troopers basic stats can be anywhere between 0 and 10. If something else is raising that beyond 10, then it will work because there is no *limit* on the stats.Pure rhetoric. Works just as well against you:

The troopers total stats can be anywhere between 0 and 10. If something else is raising that beyond 10, then it won't work because there is a *limit* on the stats.

Put another way, the word "basic" or "base" or "unmodified" simply isn't there, you're adding or assuming it, but without it the meaning is "total" by default. (If "total" isn't the default then all modifiers can be argued to be useless since "total" isn't specified for anything.)


Where does it say that there is a limit in the rulebook? I cannot find it, so you reference it for me and when I find it I will confirm that it is true.Page 12, second paragraph: "All characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10."

Where does it say that the limit only applies to "base" stats? I cannot find it, so you reference it for me and when I find it I will confirm that it is true.

(All available precedents indicate otherwise.)


Most equipment and some weapons have "limiting factors" such as the Powerfist or the Zzap gun, and they reference this point because that item or weapon *creates* a limit for the purpose of that item. Otherwise the item wouldn't bother because it would state in the rules that the maximum limit for every stat is 10 regardless of anything.Repetition of general rules where they most likely crop up is very common in the 40k ruleset. I don't believe that they "coincidentally" have a limit of 10, particularly when it conforms to the range explicitly laid out in the rulebook.


its only the BASE characteristics, because many a khorne lord...I don't see how the rule applies any less to the Khorne Lord. Indeed, it was Khorne Lords that this argument used to be about.


The rulebook has base rules that are built upon or broken by codexes and special abilities.When a codex breaks a core rule, it does so explicitly.

Cloudscape_online
28-05-2005, 05:19
Let's say we have a 'Fex that has 10 attacks basic (I'm not sure how many it does get, but bear with me) and it charges an enemy unit. The 'fex gets his 10 attacks and "In addition the following bonus attacks apply: +1 charge bonus, +1 two weapons" So basically he gets 11 attacks. His profile limit, and then the rules bonus on top of that. Or are you going to try and tell me that the rulebook is wrong?

Yes, characteristics are measured on a scale of 0-10. Any living thing in the 40k universe can have a stat between 0 and 10. The characteristics are limited at 10, but that doesn't mean that capabilites are limited at 10.

"When a codex breaks a core rule, it does so explicitly."
-- Yes by saying, "*this* gets +1 attack", instead of "*this* gets +1 attack (to a maximum of 10)" That is fairly explicit. Strange how that sounds like a PF, and yet the Codex writers keep 'Forgetting' to put it in. Methinks not.

And now I have given you many instances of examples, and yet the best you can do is quote everyone else to death, nit-picking at their argument and not-so-subtly deflecting the fact that you don't actually have a real counter-argument, juts a bag full of quotation marks.

Fex with 10 attacks, Tusking so +2 on charge, scything talons (counts as additional cc weapon) +1 =13 attacks total

I'm done.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-05-2005, 05:47
Let's say we have a 'Fex that has 10 attacks basic (I'm not sure how many it does get, but bear with me) and it charges an enemy unit. The 'fex gets his 10 attacks and "In addition the following bonus attacks apply: +1 charge bonus, +1 two weapons" So basically he gets 11 attacks. His profile limit, and then the rules bonus on top of that. Or are you going to try and tell me that the rulebook is wrong?I'm going to tell you that the rule limiting his attacks to 10 places a limit on the bonuses, rendering them moot. Or are you going to try and tell me that the rulebook is wrong?


The characteristics are limited at 10, but that doesn't mean that capabilites are limited at 10.You're drawing a distinction that doesn't exist. The characteristic is limited to 10. The characteristic in question is attacks. There's no separate attacks "capability" that isn't limited.


"When a codex breaks a core rule, it does so explicitly."
-- Yes by saying, "*this* gets +1 attack", instead of "*this* gets +1 attack (to a maximum of 10)" That is fairly explicit.Explicitly would be, "this gets +1 attack, possibly taking it beyond 10". You can't just ignore a limitation based on something which doesn't address it. "Look, there's no explicit limit on the number of Ork Mobs I can take, I guess that means I can ignore the Force Organization Chart!" "My combi-bolter is twin-linked and master-crafted! Guess I can ignore that pesky no-multiple-re-rolls rule!" The rules just don't work that way. English just doesn't work that way.


And now I have given you many instances of examples, and yet the best you can do is quote everyone else to death, nit-picking at their argument and not-so-subtly deflecting the fact that you don't actually have a real counter-argument, juts a bag full of quotation marks.I have torn apart every one of your examples and arguments to my complete satisfaction with real counter-arguments that completely invalidate their points. You, as before, have not actually presented a counter-argument at all, merely restatements of old arguments in new terms without addressing the arguments by which I addressed them in the first place.

I mean, seriously, did you really think we needed yet another "example" of a model that can add up enough bonuses to total more than 10 attacks, if there's really no limit to the total? You didn't address the substance of my argument (that the limit applies to the total rather than the base).

You accuse me of over-quoting, but quoting is part and parcel of a coherent counter-argument. I wish you'd use them instead of ignoring my points altogether.

Brimstone
28-05-2005, 06:25
Nurgling Chieftain & Cloudscape_online

This has now become a back and forth between the two of you with no real way of going forward. Therefore I'm closing this thread.