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Brother Vidius
07-06-2010, 13:00
Hey guys. Just recently returned to the hobby after a brief hiatus. I'm normally a 40K player but with the new edition of Fantasy around the corner I thought I'd give it a bash!

The first GW minis I ever bought was a box of Dark Elf warriors so I decided what better way to start again than going back to the beginning. Picked up the book. Dreadlord on Cold one and a battalion box to get me started. Anyway without further adue here's the first draft of my list.

Dreadlord-Heavy armour, shield, Sword of Ruin, Potion of strength, Cold one
259pts

Sorceress-Level 2 and 2 Dispel scrolls
185pts

24 Dark Elf warriors-Shields and Full command
183pts

10 Crossbowmen
100pts

10 Crossbowmen
100pts

20 Corsairs-Full command and handbows
225pts

5 Dark Riders-Musician and Repeater crossbows
117pts

9 Cold one Knights-Full command, Ring of Hotek and Standard of Slaughter.
343pts

5 Shades
80pts

15 Executioners-Full command
210pts

Reaper Bolt thrower
100pts

Reaper Bolt thrower
100pts

2002pts

The Dreadlord will join the Knights and the Sorceress the warriors. Any ideas guys? is it balanced?

Comments and criticism appreciated guys
Cheers in advance ;)

Tae
07-06-2010, 13:24
It's a fairly good list, especially for friendly gaming. That said, if I were to take this to a tournament I would make the following changes:

The 2nd level on your sorceress is wasted as you only have the one caster. Most opposing armies will easily shut down your two (or three if you include Power of Darkness) spells. Spend those 35 points on something better.

Drop the handbows on the Corsairs. The range is so shot you'll only get to use them if you're being charged. And 10 shots from them aren't going to cause any attacking unit to either re-consider its charge or do any damage of note. Plus you have Mv5 so will, or should be, the one actually doing the charging. So go for extra hand weapon instead - it also means if one corsair dies from combat you'll still have a bucket load of attacks. Though personally I would go for another unit of spearmen instead of corsairs and spend the points on something else.

9 Cold One Knights is too many. The back rank of 5 is a complete waste as you will rarely make it into combat intact, and even if you did the +1CR is way overpriced. Drop them down to 6 or 7, probably 6 (as you have the Dreadlord to include) as that way you'll still have to lose a couple for panic tests but wont be so wide a frontage as they'll all get to attack against most units.

The Executioners are somewhat weak. With having great weapons they need to be going first or to have some kind of additional save, otherwise they're never going to have much chance of doing anything. So think about adding a Hag - either BSB or on a Cauldron of Blood to give them the ward save.

With all those points saved you may even have enough for a Hydra.

Now, all of the above changes are based around an optimal list soif you're wanting something a bit more balanced and fun I would stick roughly with what you've got as it's a fairly decent list. The only things I would say are definate changes you should make would be to the Executioners and the Cold Ones as I think the former you'll simply never have any fun with the former as they'll just keep dying and the latter will never make their points back and the back rank is completely wasted.

Brother Vidius
07-06-2010, 20:17
Thanks very much!

I'll probably just be using it for friendly gaming anyway.
Do you think maybe losing the Executioners and adding a second unit of Knights would be worth it? or more Dark Riders?

Slashattack
07-06-2010, 21:00
I think Tae's got most changes you could make to improve the list sorted, although there would be a couple of tweaks I would make.

With the Dreadlord I would throw on a sea dragon cloak and an enchanted shield for a nice 0+ save in combat, and a -1+ against shooting.

With the corsairs put the sea serpent standard on there to increase their number of attacks. Also with the new ediition frenzy can now be controlled with a leadership test, so they won't be so uncontrollable with it.

Drop the executioners for more dark riders as you need the banner of hag graef on a death hag to make them any good, which costs a lot of points. Another unit of knights would not be necessary in this points level really, so if you do get worried over only having one or two hammer units then get a war hydra.

thesheriff
07-06-2010, 21:07
You obviously like mounted stuff (cold one lord/knights and riders all favoured in your list), why not do a mounted army? I would suggest maybe some cheap infantry blocks and crossbowmen, and a couple of units of knights backed up by riders and some kickass charecters.
And for your charecters, i would go with a Lord with an enchanted shield, pendant of kaleth, Caeldors bane , pendant of kaleth. You get a +1 armour save and a reverse ward save. The beauty of this is it can take all things. If you come up against high strength, you may get a 5+ armour save from a S7 attack, but you them have to roll under 6+ to not take a wound after that. Alternativly, if you come up against lots of attacks (3 Plague monks - 13 attacks w. champ) you take the +1 armour and your less good ward. You cant go wrong really. And Caeldors bane is S7, ingnoring most armour which is nice with 4 attacks at WS7
Executioners only work in my opinion with a caudron nearby and a hag bsb with the alwyas strikes 1st banner to give them some punch. Black guard are usually better. They have lots 'o' attacks and will scare the enemy to death. There also very nice models (althought the executioners are better)

Slashattack
07-06-2010, 21:21
That dreadlord loadout isn't quite optimum. My current one has the cold one, sea dragon cloak, heavy armour, shield, potion of strength, caledors bane and pendant.
There's no need for the enchanted shield it's just overkill with the pendant and a 1+ save already. Also potion of strength is very useful if he becomes stuck in protracted combats.

thesheriff
07-06-2010, 21:37
I forgot about sea-dragon cloak, might take your advice on my lord

Brother Vidius
08-06-2010, 23:37
Thanks guys!

I'm considering dropping the Executioners and the Level 2 on the Sorceress and put 2 more units of Dark Riders.

Will post a revised list asap!

Foxhound_808
08-06-2010, 23:47
I actually really like your choice of executioners. If you choose to keep them, I'd suggest giving them the Banner of Murder at least. S6 w/ killing blow + armor piercing and these guys will cut through any heavily armored foes like butter. I find that, in an elf army where most of your units are strength 3, it helps to have hard hitters. If you can afford to put a Hag BSB with the ASF banner, even better.
Besides, they are some of the best looking models in the whole range.

Tae
13-06-2010, 21:55
Having written in my previous post about how you should drop the Corsairs, having heard/read 8th Ed stuff I am reconsidering this position. To the extent that my new DE army will contain 3 units of 20 of them and Lokhir.

Though I still stand by the extra hand weapons (although on the one unit with the frenzy banner I may give them handbows, as 20 shots as a stand and shoot reaction isn't that bad).

My 2,000 will be something along the lines of (magic items will change once I can fully read the new common ones in 8th Ed book)

Dreadlord
1+AS, Inverse ward, some kind of magic weapon, Cold One

Lokhir

BSB
Cold One, 1+AS, Ring of Hotek

3 x 20 Corsairs with FC, one with frenzy banner

2 x 5 DR xbows, musician

5 x Cold Ones, FC, D3 combat res banner

1 x BT

1 x Hydra

Now whilst I accept that Corsairs are a little expensive, now that they will get to actually attack (7th Ed they just kept dying before they could fight). I5 means going first against all bar other Elves and Chaos Warriors. So with step up that means 16 attacks which is exactly the same as spearmen would get, plus I keep that number of attacks longer (as it will last until the 2nd rank gets hit, as opposed to spearmen which starts to decrease once the 3rd rank gets hit). And they have the same save in combat and a better save against ranged.

Plus pirates are awesome :)

Also, just FYI, in 8th you can't have multiple dispell scrolls, so you're going to have another free 25 points.

WolfVonhinslik
14-06-2010, 05:07
Now whilst I accept that Corsairs are a little expensive, now that they will get to actually attack (7th Ed they just kept dying before they could fight). I5 means going first against all bar other Elves and Chaos Warriors. So with step up that means 16 attacks which is exactly the same as spearmen would get, plus I keep that number of attacks longer (as it will last until the 2nd rank gets hit, as opposed to spearmen which starts to decrease once the 3rd rank gets hit). And they have the same save in combat and a better save against ranged.

actually with a 5X5 block of Corsairs, you should get 21 attacks with 2x hand weps
(5x2=10x2ranks=20+1 champ=21) where with warriors you will only get 16 attacks with a 5x5 block
(1x5=5x3=15+1 champ=16) plus as you said you will not lose attacks until 2 ranks are left where as it would be 3 ranks for the warriors

then as stated, seeing that frenzy can be controlled, give them frenzy, thats 31 attacks with hatred, plus the special persue rule that Corsairs have with the reroll enemie die ... dont worry, your friends can lick there wounds later :P

in my current list i have a 32 (8X4) man block of warriors, but i will be making a 24 (6X4) man block of Corsairs for 8th with serpant banner thats 37 attacks with hatred.

also i did not know that you will not be able to use multiple dispel scrolls, that makes me happy, i hate people who (no offence) span caddies

Tae
14-06-2010, 11:38
actually with a 5X5 block of Corsairs, you should get 21 attacks with 2x hand weps
(5x2=10x2ranks=20+1 champ=21) where with warriors you will only get 16 attacks with a 5x5 block
(1x5=5x3=15+1 champ=16) plus as you said you will not lose attacks until 2 ranks are left where as it would be 3 ranks for the warriors

then as stated, seeing that frenzy can be controlled, give them frenzy, thats 31 attacks with hatred, plus the special persue rule that Corsairs have with the reroll enemie die ... dont worry, your friends can lick there wounds later :P

in my current list i have a 32 (8X4) man block of warriors, but i will be making a 24 (6X4) man block of Corsairs for 8th with serpant banner thats 37 attacks with hatred.

also i did not know that you will not be able to use multiple dispel scrolls, that makes me happy, i hate people who (no offence) span caddies

I was under the impression that people in the second rank only get 1 attack, regardless of profile etc., hence my calculation of 16 (2 x 5 (+1 champ) + 5 supporting). In fact I'm fairly certain this is correct as that is another bonus of 'monsterous infantry (i.e. ogres etc.) is that they get all their attacks from supporting units.

Frenzy is going to be better and also worse. Yes it's controllable, but if you fail you have to charge the closest unit - not, as it is now, any unit in range. But I don't see that being too much of an issue realy. :D

The other scrolls are potentially more annoying to players - however they all let the spell off first before their affects are calculated. But watch for the 50 point scroll that turns the enemy wizard into a frog with stats of 1 accross the board. I forsee lots of Lords of Changes being shot to bits as they get turned into a frog. :D

WolfVonhinslik
14-06-2010, 15:06
I was under the impression that people in the second rank only get 1 attack, regardless of profile etc., hence my calculation of 16 (2 x 5 (+1 champ) + 5 supporting). In fact I'm fairly certain this is correct as that is another bonus of 'monsterous infantry (i.e. ogres etc.) is that they get all their attacks from supporting units.

Frenzy is going to be better and also worse. Yes it's controllable, but if you fail you have to charge the closest unit - not, as it is now, any unit in range. But I don't see that being too much of an issue realy. :D

The other scrolls are potentially more annoying to players - however they all let the spell off first before their affects are calculated. But watch for the 50 point scroll that turns the enemy wizard into a frog with stats of 1 accross the board. I forsee lots of Lords of Changes being shot to bits as they get turned into a frog. :D

you are correct, my bad, i misread the rumer

im worryd with all these scrolls tho, making magic a waist of time

Tae
14-06-2010, 19:19
you are correct, my bad, i misread the rumer

im worryd with all these scrolls tho, making magic a waist of time

Not really - only a dispell scroll actually dispells it (hence the name!) the rest mean that the spell is automatically cast (i.e. no rolling dice at it) but just have an after effect once the spell has been resolved - such as turning someone into a toad (stats all 1 apart from W, which stays the same), doing extra hits, causing future miscasts etc.

So max of one spell per game (that's not IR'd) will be auto-dispelled, everything else will have to be rolled for.

Demandrer
15-06-2010, 23:48
Awesome info with corsairs had never thought to take them! Do you rate them over black guard now?

Tae
16-06-2010, 20:55
Awesome info with corsairs had never thought to take them! Do you rate them over black guard now?

With Fear/Terror no longer causing auto-break it may well be they are superior, if only with the inclusion (or nearby presence of) of a Crown of Command (makes you stubborn) wearing General and BSB.

That would make you Ld10 stubborn with a re-roll for all Ld based tests. If you give the BSB the ASF banner and the unit the frenzy banner, that would give you 4 BSB attacks with almost permanent re-rolls (excepting some rare characters etc.) and 18 Corsair attacks, again with re-rolls against most people. Hardly shabby. And the Corsairs still have a 5+ AS in combat, which - excepting characters - is as good as every other DE infantry unit which can take armour (assuming Crossbowmen take shields).

They could potentially become better 'anvils' than the Black Guard, such as Dark Elves have any anvils at all, as they're core (so are part of a required group) and can dish out 2/3 attacks each.

All of which means that I am potentially leaning towards Corsairs now being better than Black Guard when operating within an army as a whole. However in a straight up unit comparison I would put them more equal.

Demandrer
17-06-2010, 09:42
Thanks Tae il be grabbing some corsairs then!

tmarichards
17-06-2010, 12:31
I still think Black Guard will be better, especially since a 200pt Cauldron now seems to be a much better choice than before (when it was already pretty good). I'm more likely to switch to a BG deathstar, with the Executioner's Axe Lord, Rings of Darkness and Hotek, then probably the armour piercing banner and +D3 combat res on the charge, with 8th edition.

Tae
17-06-2010, 22:10
I still think Black Guard will be better, especially since a 200pt Cauldron now seems to be a much better choice than before (when it was already pretty good). I'm more likely to switch to a BG deathstar, with the Executioner's Axe Lord, Rings of Darkness and Hotek, then probably the armour piercing banner and +D3 combat res on the charge, with 8th edition.

Well you're not taking the two rings (unless you put Hotek on the champion of course) and without the ASF banner your Lord has ASL, so he'll get smacked around a bit.

And honestly, the BG deathstarr is still pretty good offensively, probably better than 7th, but there are just going to be so many units which will lost to the BGStar in combat but will be stubborn, and just wont go anywhere - meaning they'll either get counter charged or just tarpitted.