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fall3nang3l
08-06-2010, 01:35
Added some updates of summaries in red.

FAQ is up.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1260032a_FAQ_VampireCounts2010.pdf


going to rewrite this summary within the next few days, when I have time.


army composition: percentages
this may be a slight blow to us because our heroes are such an important part of our army, although it is going to be difficult in the 25% heroes option for myself [drakenhof banner = 125/500 :(] i do really think this was a good change, because it is going to remove some of the really nasty army lists.
the 25% minimum core may hurt some vc players who like to raise an army on the run but corpse carts and dire wolves should (hopefully) help flesh out the requirement.
running a 500+ point lord is possible but not exactly reasonable so it isnt that much of a blow, although not sure how mounts work into the composition.

reforming: musician allows free reform
i personally love this change. i hated having to forfeit an entire turn of moving in order to reform. have a question about how the leadership test applies to us though.
It has been mentioned that this is a benefit for skeletons over ghouls

MAGIC: is a touchy subject to vc imo mainly because we depend on it so much. 2d6 power dice generation.
although i do think it is a cool change to make the magic phase more random as it reflects the winds of magic(or some other fluffy name). but. leaving the strength of our magic phase to 2 dice is very disheartening. unlike other armies, we dont have shooting to make up for a roll of a 2 for power dice...

master of the black arts:
The current idea is using hero level vampires as MOTBA caddies because the +2 power dice are placed into the pool.
No longer viable with FAQ

limit on powerdice: a limit on 12 is nice to balance out some armies (lol us included) but it does hurt us of course. with MOTBA and channeling we may even be wasting power dice ~1/5 of the time.
Although we are limited on the amount of max dice we can carry at one time, we can reduce the minimum amount of power dice we can carry as well so we can make the power dice generation less random. With 1 or 2 MOTBA spread around on vampires, we can make our minimum pd count 4 or 6 if we roll snake eyes; which also gives 1 dispel dice to our opponent.

number of wizards: this is a major thought of mine that i would like to discuss with my fellow vampire counts players.
It seems to me that with the way that powerdice are generated, we are going to be less reliant on the Level of the wizards and more on the Number of wizards. with "the master" vampiric powers effectively all of our raising troops vampires are a magic level higher; +1 for caster level 1, +1 for lord of the dead or summon ghouls seems more than enough for a 4+ cast. is taking dark acolyte on our vampires going to be worth the points? maybe to fight against dispels??

also, if you roll a 1 or a 2 on a cast, it fails, and the caster may not cast for the rest of that turn. maybe the best option will be using basic level 1 heroes with Lotd or Sg as weaker casters to draw off dispel dice and if they do get spell locked for the turn, the next vampire/necromancer takes over etc. this might also allow us to take our heroes in a more offensive and armored loadout. it would also remove the chance of our lord getting spell locked while the lesser characters focus on healing/summoning.

spells:
Army book overrules the rulebook

SHOOTING: LOL Good joke
(its going to hurt a lot more)
another thing to note is with the current speak of 3k being the old 2k points games, everyone is going to take larger units to benefit from the changes to close combat, so yes shooting is getting a boost but our unit sizes are also getting a boost. If shooting wasn't competitive, there wouldnt be any way to whittle down large units as they march across the board.

COMBAT:

horde: unit 10+ wide can fight in 3 ranks
cool change, tempted to run 30 GG with great weapons and drakenhof but i think the 2 ranks will be enough though.

stepping up: you will usually get your full attacks back.

steadfast: if you have more ranks than opponent you roll ld tests on unmodified ld (stubborn), is not negated by a flank/rear charge
maybe the errata will change this for us??

combat fought always in initiative order:
im really not a fan of this rule. attacking first was one of the cool advantages to charging... whats going to be the point now?

ward OR regen save:
does help balance a bit but regardless; ouch to the defense of our general, but i guess it frees up points for offensive magic items?
Reduces the effectiveness of using the drakenhof banner and GG with hw/shield as it is parry save OR regen.

parry, hw&shield: not sure if i like this one yet. depends on the changes to armor modifiers. hurts GG with the drakenhof banner if its ward or regen though.

spears: again, not sure of my reaction. id like to hear other peoples thoughts on this compared to the parry change.
might be useful in combination with a lot of the new buff spells in the new lores (death -1s & -1t is the only one i can think off of the top of my head).

great weapons: sad to see the benefit with charging... but good to see the balance issue with great weapons and always strike first banners.

PSYCOLOGY: another very touchy subject with us.

fear/terror:
imo the last *ahem* current rules for fear (autobreak) were a bit overpowered, but to make up for the fact that we have terrible infantry and we lose models when we lose combat we get an improved fear test? lol, even if a unit does fail their test, they still hit skeletons on 4+...maybe there is more to this than we know.
im curious as to what changes they are going to implement.
nope its exactly as it sounds. enemy rolls ld at the beginning of every phase of combat. if they fail, they are WS1 for the phase.
This makes the screaming banner one of our best choices for magic banners.




Recent updates section:

Skeletons or Ghouls.

There are a couple reasons why its worth having atleast a unit or two of skele's in the army.

1) You do need banners for scenario 4. If you have them in the rest of your list, great, but make sure you are over the point level breakpoint or you would just auto lose at the start of the game (this combined with #3 are a good reason to have 90pt zombie units as well).

2) Not only do skeletons have an armor save, but hand weapon and shield no longer gives +1 armor in close combat. Instead you have a +6 parry ward save. So for anything strength 4 or lower you get your armor (5 or 6) and the parry save while the ghouls get nothing.

3) Musicians are a big deal in 8th. If you have one you can take a leadership test before you move and if you pass you get to reform and then move your M value (no marching). So skeletons have greater flexibility to react to incomming enemies or position better for a Vanhel's Danse.

4) Spears fight in 3 ranks now, or 4 if you build your formation with the horde rule (10 wide). So if you ever decided to run spear skeletons, they are a good unit to let the enemy charge and have to suffer through all of those attacks.

I am not saying that skeletons are better than ghouls by any streatch. I have both in my build for 8th. However I think that skeletons do have a place and its probably worth considering atleast a single unit of them to shore up the lines or a flank. Remember, its not just about killing power, its also about sticking around as your enemy most likely will be too.

on the Ghouls' side, with the parry change, enough attacks could be useful against armored targets. They are still an extremely effective assault force. any one else want to PM me a good breakdown of their benefits? im a skeleton guy :D

Also Black Coach


- it cant be insta-gibbed by str 7
- it sucks in dice much more often due to pool dice generation changes
- at level 3 it has a 1+ ward save against magic
- at level 5, it becomes practically invulnerable to non-skaven armies due to shrugging off magic due to the above.
*snip*


please comment and discuss.
thanks

Tr1gger
08-06-2010, 01:54
I'm really tempted to run a Vampire Army (not fussed about how competitive they are) but reading through this has helped a lot, thanks for posting :)

I'll keep checking for replys :)

Dungeon_Lawyer
08-06-2010, 02:15
initiative order doesnt seem to effect Vc all that much+ vanhels and the 1 corpsecart power grants asf.


I think we will see many many necromancers in a few months.

Maoriboy007
08-06-2010, 02:42
Unfortunatly the most sensible build right now would be the bunker Lord, anything else is granting a huge opportunity to your opponant.

The new magic system does have a lot of potential , but there are a couple of negatives I can see.

1. Your opponant gets pretty much half of you power dice as dispel dice for absolutely free,while you have to spend points on a wizard.

2.In light of that and the new limits on power dice, being unable to cast after spell failure (which is not all that difficult) iwould be pretty unessesary.

3.The rumoured devestating miscasts can spell a death knell for VC, especially with Hotek , Black Tongue/ Infernal Puppet and Cupped Hands.

Maoriboy007
08-06-2010, 02:43
initiative order doesnt seem to effect Vc all that much+ vanhels and the 1 corpsecart power grants asf.


I think we will see many many necromancers in a few months.

Again dependant on a good magic phase, and there is only so much vanhels and Corpsecart power to go around.

StrawberryMcFairyShoes
08-06-2010, 08:30
I think our army will take a serious blow but we're not nerfred beyond repair.
My greatest fear are the magic and fear/terror changes. I wonder if it is even possible to count on your vampire's magic. We'll see a lot of necromancers though but I'll need to have a look at the rules before I start panicking.
To end with a positive note I can see Ethereal units becoming alot stronger with less magic and less combat characters (I think with the stepping up rule that most players will spend more points on protecting their lords/heroes thus leaving very little points for magical weapons.).

Time will tell ... Only one more month to go

maze ironheart
08-06-2010, 09:40
I think it will just mean we'll have to play in a different way other then the get loaded with power dice and spam ION.

Dungeon_Lawyer
08-06-2010, 11:15
I think it will just mean we'll have to play in a different way other then the get loaded with power dice and spam ION.
^+1 A 3+ vargulf build is viable now at 2250 right? Plus they are getting stomp attacks too right?:evilgrin:

Stumpy
08-06-2010, 11:34
I'm pretty sure your lore will stay as is, the vampire book has its own rules for its spells. You start with the base spell and roll for the others.
As for the 1 or 2 being a spell fail, that exists currently though with no additional repercussions.

fall3nang3l
08-06-2010, 14:47
I'm pretty sure your lore will stay as is, the vampire book has its own rules for its spells. You start with the base spell and roll for the others.
As for the 1 or 2 being a spell fail, that exists currently though with no additional repercussions.

but right now, invo is a "bonus" spell. it doesnt count for the number of spells a wizard knows that is dependent on their magic level. i.e. level 1 vampire knows invo and 1 spell from the lore. will this be changed?? or will we have raise dead as our base spell? and do you think summon undead horde is our 'mega' spell? comparing it to being able to turn into a dragon on a 20+ (beastmen?)...

and also, when we fail to cast it now, we just pick up another dice and keep trying. it wont be the same if 1/3 of the time, 1 of your 3-4 wizards cant cast for the rest of the turn.

Malorian
08-06-2010, 15:48
I'm really just sitting back as far as vampires go until more info is out on the magic phase, the army erratas, and the new magical items.

Hell even knowing more about the new standard missions would change a lot.

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-06-2010, 01:08
I wulod be very surpirsed if the casting values dont go up

Mudkip
10-06-2010, 01:40
and also, when we fail to cast it now, we just pick up another dice and keep trying. it wont be the same if 1/3 of the time, 1 of your 3-4 wizards cant cast for the rest of the turn.

It gives you another credible reason to use Necromancers though. Being cheaper they are more suited to risking those one-dice-castings instead of a Vampire. If they suceed in casting the spell they can keep trying until they fail, so the possibility of getting off multiple IoN castings is still there, it's just the ridiculous spam has been curtailed.

nick_robinsonchia
10-06-2010, 01:41
Honestly the Vamps are sort of the ones that I have no idea about as the magic will determine the lists. Either way it seems more combat orientated lists will be the way to go. My army is based around a mighty blood dragon and his retinue joining forces with a smaller strigoi force to wreak havoc. Im thinking something along the lines of the following for 8th. Again its very tentative and will likely change but just for a feel for it here goes. Let me know what you think.

THE KNIGHT AND THE MONSTER. [2500P]

LORDS [425p 17%]
Vampire Lord Level 3, Dreadknight, Red Fury, Summon Bats/Wolves, Balefire Spike, Crown of the Damned, Book of Arkhan [425p]

HEROES [350p 14%]
Vampire BSB, Blood Drinker, Dreadknight [190p]
Vampire Helm of Commandment, Black Periapt, Summon Ghouls [160p]

CORE [628p 25.12%]
35 Ghouls Ghast[288p]
19 Ghouls Ghast[160p]
5 Direwolves [40p]
5 Direwolves[40p]
Corpsecart Unholy Loadstone[100p]

SPECIAL [521p 20.84%]

14 Black Knights Standard, Musician, Barding, Banner of the Barrows[461p]<lord
3 Fell Bats [60p]

RARE [570p 22.8%]
Varghulf [175p]
6 Blood Knights Standard, Musican, Royal Banner of Strigoi [395p]<BSB

I always hated the bunker lord - seems like such a waste of good combat stats so many might not agree with this set up. Basically Lord Brecht and his retinue (Both knights, Bats, Wolves) bust a flank and then using the tasty reforms roll it. Whilst the horde of ghouls with the bunker hero advances up the middle with the vargulf guarding flanks and the corpsecart in support.

Magic is purely for patching up casualties, if I get first turn bumping the direwolf and bat units as well as adding to the horde formation ghouls. The ghouls can be hella mean in this formation. With the herosweapon skill, potential for ASF and a tonne of poisoned attacks this unit will rip alot of stuff up. Especially if the opponent is concentrated on the very powerful flanking forces against him. The black Knights are so large to absorb casualties so as the warmachines have a hard time sniping the lord. That and having a ranked unit with standard seems kinda mandatory given the capture rules.

Anyway I dont think the outlook is too bleak for vamps - got a feeling it will just be an adjustment from lder playstyles. Anything to stop the BS bunker lord + summon I WIN list is fine by me. So very boring.

N

The black knights

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-06-2010, 04:20
Honestly the Vamps are sort of the ones that I have no idea about as the magic will determine the lists. Either way it seems more combat orientated lists will be the way to go. My army is based around a mighty blood dragon and his retinue joining forces with a smaller strigoi force to wreak havoc. Im thinking something along the lines of the following for 8th. Again its very tentative and will likely change but just for a feel for it here goes. Let me know what you think.

THE KNIGHT AND THE MONSTER. [2500P]

LORDS [425p 17%]
Vampire Lord – Level 3, Dreadknight, Red Fury, Summon Bats/Wolves, Balefire Spike, Crown of the Damned, Book of Arkhan [425p]

HEROES [350p 14%]
Vampire – BSB, Blood Drinker, Dreadknight [190p]
Vampire – Helm of Commandment, Black Periapt, Summon Ghouls [160p]

CORE [628p 25.12%]
35 Ghouls – Ghast[288p]
19 Ghouls – Ghast[160p]
5 Direwolves [40p]
5 Direwolves[40p]
Corpsecart – Unholy Loadstone[100p]

SPECIAL [521p 20.84%]

14 Black Knights – Standard, Musician, Barding, Banner of the Barrows[461p]<lord
3 Fell Bats [60p]

RARE [570p 22.8%]
Varghulf [175p]
6 Blood Knights – Standard, Musican, Royal Banner of Strigoi [395p]<BSB

I always hated the bunker lord - seems like such a waste of good combat stats so many might not agree with this set up. Basically Lord Brecht and his retinue (Both knights, Bats, Wolves) bust a flank and then using the tasty reforms roll it. Whilst the horde of ghouls with the bunker hero advances up the middle with the vargulf guarding flanks and the corpsecart in support.

Magic is purely for patching up casualties, if I get first turn bumping the direwolf and bat units as well as adding to the horde formation ghouls. The ghouls can be hella mean in this formation. With the herosweapon skill, potential for ASF and a tonne of poisoned attacks this unit will rip alot of stuff up. Especially if the opponent is concentrated on the very powerful flanking forces against him. The black Knights are so large to absorb casualties so as the warmachines have a hard time sniping the lord. That and having a ranked unit with standard seems kinda mandatory given the capture rules.

Anyway I dont think the outlook is too bleak for vamps - got a feeling it will just be an adjustment from lder playstyles. Anything to stop the BS bunker lord + summon I WIN list is fine by me. So very boring.

N

The black knights

Its looks nice, save for one thing, wont VC need at least one unit of skellies with full commands in order to achieve victory or gain bonus vp's in some of the new scenarios that will be in play in 8th? And then only having one to cash in on those vp's/objectives will be risky, so you'll prob need at least two, and then prob a caster geared towards covering them....and then before you know the list looks different. Im not sold on ghouls in 8th. I think Skellies are going to be far more valuable w/the cheap magic banners and wight king spam that may be possible,. I like the idea of a skellie unit/hellfire banner with a few wight kings armed with GW in the front 2 ranks.

Tomalock
10-06-2010, 04:42
The changes to initiative are probably the biggest thing that will affect my list. I run a heavy combat list with only a handful of low level vamps, so actually looking favorably on the magic phase if I can generate that many extra dice compared to now. All of our "elite" units are low initiative, minus the Blood Knights comming in at 4. It almost makes Danse a necessity, which is something I wasn't initially planning on.

I think the biggest fall from grace will be Black Knights when you consider their cost versus what they will do on the charge. At initiative 3 and a single attack each, I just don't see them having much staying power, even though I currently run mine in a block of 10. My big block of Blood Knights is still going to wreck face, so I might consider more of them if rares are not capped at 25%.

What do you guys think about the Vargulf? Do you think they will be able to hold their own at initiative 2? I'd be really cautious about where I would send them in, even in the flank to support a unit on the front.

Maybe I am being overly cautious, but I am a little concerned about our combat potential outside of the Blood Knights and Characters, with striking in I order and stepping up(although that is actually more in our favor considering how low the army's I value is as a whole). Whats everyone else think?

(just a note that I don't play the "typical" VC list. With low casting I build my units big with the expectation that I won't be getting them bigger throughout the game)

nick_robinsonchia
10-06-2010, 05:38
@D_L yeah I was thinking that myself but it doesn't seem to say anything about cavalry with a standard in ranks not being able to capture them... So it's risky with only one unit able to contest it-I.e the black knights. Maybe in those situations I might need to switch the hero and lord around or if cannon heavy put them both in there. Time will tell I guess. My prob with skellies is they got bitch slapped with the new rules. More attacks at them will hurt more than ghouls -WS 2 I2 and only a 5+6++save isnt gonna cut it for a defensive unit. I think the only combination they are actually better than ghouls defensively is ws 4+ str 3 attacks... Or ws 4+ str 6+ attacks and both are marginal at best.We will see them drop faster than ever before. Combine that with no outnumber for static Rez(I.e relying on kills for CR -no comparison between the two) I have no idea what skellies will be useful for... Apart from offering ranks and a standard... Maybe one 20 man squad to hold objectives might be it for them...

@T as to the varfhulf anything light they will still munch on... They are tough enough to take it. In fact with outnumber gone and a bonus for charging to CR they might be better off than before. Honestly I'm gonna try a few things. 1. Keeping it as a flank supporter/opportunist wound dealer hanging out near a corpse cart and also missile troop warmachine hunter. I dunno I guess time will tell.

Major_Blackhart
10-06-2010, 16:40
I think combat lords will become much more viable in 8th than before. With regards to potential magic weapons (yeah, expensive but so what), a close combat lord with red fury, eternal hatred and the dread knight (or maybe the other warrior one), and the +3 attack magic weapon can easily thin out rank and file soldiers from most armies with ease. Throw him and a unit of ghoul guard headlong into the fray and he can easily get additional attacks off each turn (he already has 7 with that weapon. Re-rolling to hit and wounding most basic infantry on what, a +3?). He could get as many as 10 attacks each turn quite easily. Give him the armor that ignores KB, poison, etc and you have a hard lord in your army.

Malorian
10-06-2010, 16:42
Fighty lords might be a must, but it wouldn't be the dreadlance ones we are used to.

They would be needed for protracted combats, and a lance doesn't cut it.

(Not to mention the change to look out sir rolls if mounted in an nifantry unit rumor.)

Zimmer
10-06-2010, 19:16
So I think its agreed upon that our magic phase is going to be a lot more finicky with the changes to casting and miscasts and that we're going to have to rely a lot more on combat resolution, specefically from characters. That said, I had some thoughts that would never have crossed my mind previously.

What are you guys thinking about VLords? Is level 4 going to be worth it? Considering we're going to be capped at 12 dice, and throwing 1 die at invo is going to be extremely risky, that gives us all of 6 raisings per turn and thats before bound items, and all our other good magic stuff (Danse :( ). On that note, MoTBA? If we can only have 12 dice that I may be able to get for free, does it seem wise to waste the points for guaranteed 2 additional dice? I'm thinking a pair of level 3's (at 2500, of course) geared mostly for combat could potentially provide all the magic support for our army. Toss in a necro or 2 and you've locked it down and *probably* optimal for 12 dice.

How about skeletons? HW+S seems.....lackluster now considering they're not as survivable and with the influx of large quantities of attacks and not being able to toss invo's around freely, would it be worth it to try and make the best use of skeletons for combat? I'm thinking 40-50 in horde formation with spears. Yes, they will die, but there should be enough to take hits and make a crapload back too. Throw in the new WS1 from fear, (and the vamp power that makes enemy LD at -1) or maybe the HoC and that big, expensive and very pointy unit of skeletors make actually be able to put holes in teeth. ......That and it seems very fluffy to have a legion of skeletons marching around in a solid block :d

My last thought is hammers. Barring Blood Knights, ours are....tempremental without corpse cart or danse support. The vargy, as already mentioned, has a garbage initiative, but is still tough enough to be able to pick on soft, wimpy targets. Wraiths may be the cream of the crop depending upon the amount of cheap hero characters with magic attacks you see, as black knights also suffer from garbage init, and will only truely perform well in the first round while they are still lanced.

These are of course, just my initial thinkings, as I havn't seen a book yet, but VC seem like the one army that's going to be in a weird place if rumours are true. Well, WE too, but I don't care about them :p

Malorian
10-06-2010, 19:51
As much as you'll see cheap heros, I would in no way expect them to have magical weapons. In fact I'm guessing it wil lbe much like 6th where every character had a great weapon.

So I'm thinking wraiths will be the main hammer unit, with less baitable blood knights benig not so far behind.

NecroNurgle
10-06-2010, 20:04
As much as you'll see cheap heros, I would in no way expect them to have magical weapons. In fact I'm guessing it wil lbe much like 6th where every character had a great weapon.

So I'm thinking wraiths will be the main hammer unit, with less baitable blood knights benig not so far behind.

Wraiths are already my main hammer unit. I run them seven large with a banshee. They have never failed to make their points back.
I also currently run 3 3x5 ghoul blocks with double necromancers, fightan vampire and casty lord. Works very well so far, and it looks like I won't have to change my list up that much.
Main concerns right now are my block of 20 GG and my flanking unit of blackknights. Not sure about running them at this point.

With the rumored change to frenzy, I very well might give blood knights another look.

Malorian
10-06-2010, 20:05
Well the grave guard will still be solid, and the black knights could still be used for hunting war machines and hitting flanks just for the extra kills.

Tomalock
11-06-2010, 02:48
I've been using a large block of both Blood Knights and Black Knights for a month or so now (in 7th) and even with frenzy as it currently stands, the Blood Knights still wreck the opposition. Black Knights are currently a close second with their movement through terrain. However with a low I value, a single attack, possible true los, etc. they seem like less of a valuable addition to the list. I could have 20 Grave Guard for the points that I currently run my Black Knights at, and they would probably hit a lot harder with the rank bonus attacks rumored to be there. I want to like them, but I'm growing less and less comefortable with the role Black Knights play in my force, which is currently a complementary hammer unit to my Blood Knights. I'm not going to axe them until I see the rulebook for myself, but I'm already starting to eye alternatives.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 13:44
Well also keep in mind that you can get 2 black knights for every bloodknight, so if you are spending the points for blood knights you could just as well spend it on a ranked black knight unit.

And given their ability to move through terrain they could be very effective flankers.


hmmm interesting :evilgrin:

Tomalock
11-06-2010, 18:50
lol that is true, but I currently have both a ranked Black Knight unit of 10 and a Ranked Blood Knight unit of 9 (the two vamps I run go in the Blood Knights giving them a frontage of 6 and a rank of 5). Its nice to have a unit that can keep pace with the Blood Knights, outside of Direwolves, but if there is any unit that can forge ahead into the enemy and do ok its a unit of 11 Blood Knights/Vampires with regen, hatred, and the Blood Drinker. But, your point about the flanks is correct, which is why I haven't just dropped them entirely (that and I have begun doing all my conversions for them). I'm just not sure if a unit of 10 is worth the points to use merely as flankers, but who knows. In the end its all speculation until the black box hits stores.

NecroNurgle
11-06-2010, 22:36
Ranked Blood Knight unit of 9

!
Just out of curiosity, did you actually buy two boxes of bloodknights? Or did you convert them from something else? And if so, what?

Tomalock
12-06-2010, 05:20
Yeah, I converted them. If you get a chance, look for a post in the fantasy project log forum by Seal Cub. I used his conversion method for Blood and Black Knights. If you do both then you end up using the same kits for some of the stuff between them and its a bit cheaper than buying the Blood Knights and Black Knights themselves. This was all done before the price increase, however, so I am not sure what the current savings would be. They turn out absolutly fantastic I might add. I get nothing but praise over the conversions at my LGS, and I haven't even started to really paint them yet.

maze ironheart
12-06-2010, 11:27
I can only imagine the carnage a ranked up blood knight unit can unleash on the enemy.

Chaos Undecided
12-06-2010, 16:19
With the "do not count towards the minimum core requirement" note on half the core choices in the list until the FAQ says otherwise I think its safer to assume that 25% have to be made up of skellies, ghouls or zombies. Given the potential changes to magic I think it might just be safer to plan around a couple of healthy sized blocks of ghouls and/or skeletons to begin with

Tomalock
13-06-2010, 19:54
I agree, and thats been my plan since I started VC with 8th in mind. While you could potentially have amazing magic phases, you could also have awful ones and it would kind of go down hill if your minimum starting units get blasted from magic and shooting on the first couple of turns.

On a similar note, if fear and charging both give combat res bonuses then you could see a unit of Grave Guard with the Banner of Dead Legion and vampire BSB with the War Banner having a static combat res of 10 on the charge (3 ranks, unit standard, battle standard, War Banner, Walking Death, fear, charging, outnumber) which is pretty cool. Especially since you can give them ASF and reroll to hit for 2 rounds of combat (or more) if a corpse cart is lingering near by. Throw in great weapons and you have a unit that your opponents never want to see charge (still a static combat res of 9 without the charge). I am suddenly feeling less excited about my Black Knights.... :eek:

LevDaddy
14-06-2010, 19:04
@Tomalock
I believe the 'fear granting CR' rumor was debunked and now a fear test must be taken before every round of combat and, if failed, will lower the unit's WS and A to 1 apiece. Also - there is no more outnumber and no more unit strength (rumored), but that's still a lot of static CR that you have displayed there.

I think the Screaming Banner will be a really solid choice, especially since the fear/terror tests will be happening each round. It should really bump up a horde of Skellies effectiveness, in my opinion.

Black Knights - they will be less effective in 8th as I don't see them lasting too long in combat with striking in initiative order and stepping up, but they'll still be useful for warmachine hunting, march blocking, ethereal maneuvering and taking down small units.

Malorian
14-06-2010, 19:11
Good point LevDaddy, that screaming banner will be nasty.

Who needs to be ASF if your opponent is WS/A/I 1 :D

LevDaddy
14-06-2010, 19:41
I know, right?!

Skellies hitting on 3's!!??!?! Insanity!

Ridarsin
14-06-2010, 20:06
One problem I still see with skellies is that they are WS2 and Zombies WS1, so it's not like they are receiving a massive buff (4's to hit) compared to Grave Guard, Ghouls, Black Knights, etc which are being hit on 5's. The Banner of the Burrows gets a nice buff with being able to hit on 2's if they fail the fear test. You guys are definitely onto something with the Screaming Banner though, it looks more worthwhile than before.

Malorian
14-06-2010, 20:08
I just want wait to see people yell bloody murder then their elite fighters are hitting my helm of commandment zombies on a 5+ :D


Any word on if units like carts and dire wolves count towards the 25% core?

If so we could start seeing some wolf armies come out :)

Ultimate Life Form
14-06-2010, 20:17
This appears to be wishful thinking (on my part as well) from what I've heard.

Malorian
14-06-2010, 20:38
Damn... In my lists I had made for 8th I had at least assumed that carts would be counted. If not then I'll need a lot more ghouls (I'd say skeletons but I traded all mine away in 7th).

Well 71 ghouls to meet 25% in 2250... that's 3 fully ranked units of 20 and a bunker.

Guess there will be no reason to take summon ghouls. Using 2 dice and adding your magic level means the +1 isn't needed, and usually wouldn't be getting much bigger than 20 anyway... unless...

What if you ran the ghouls/skeletons in horde? Two units of 30 (10 wide) and a bunker covers your core, and even though the back ranks of ghouls would only get 1 attack (another reason to go skeletons) 40 poison attacks is nothing to put up your nose at.

Thoughts?

nick_robinsonchia
14-06-2010, 20:58
What if you ran the ghouls/skeletons in horde? Two units of 30 (10 wide) and a bunker covers your core, and even though the back ranks of ghouls would only get 1 attack (another reason to go skeletons) 40 poison attacks is nothing to put up your nose at.

Thoughts?

Thats how I had my ghouls set up in the list I had posted earlier in the thread. I was thinking CC and wolves would be part of the 25% tho :(. I think ghouls FTW in 8th. Hording ghouls WILL take down everything given enough time and magical 'healing'. Nice wide frontage to protect ur bunker also. Id consider using a regular vamp as a bunkerhero tho and take advantage of the Lords stat line up. For the hero something along the lines of helm, Black Per and summon ghouls would pretty much fill the needs of the core. I got a feeling the casting value will be low enough that it doesnt matter if ur anything higher than lvl one for invocation. Else necros and regular vamps would have a real hard time. im guessing maybe 5+ max for it. Ur still failing on a one or 2 so they will have it low enough for the least skilled practioners are able to cast it reasonably well.

N

Tomalock
15-06-2010, 05:26
Well, all will be answered tomorrow. My store got the black box in today and is allowed to show it to the public starting tomorrow. I'm looking forward to seeing what really is going on hehe. :D

Malorian
15-06-2010, 15:32
Well, all will be answered tomorrow. My store got the black box in today and is allowed to show it to the public starting tomorrow. I'm looking forward to seeing what really is going on hehe. :D

Not quite... we still need to have the new erratas...

Darkangeldentist
15-06-2010, 15:56
My vampires are quite looking forward to the changes on the whole. I really want to find out how the magic phase has changed before really looking into it.

Skeletons will be a lot better as their command will prove much more significant, so will hand weapon and shield bonus. They're looking much more tempting compared to ghouls now. Ghouls still win out for aggression as they do chuck out a lot more attacks and will get more benefit out of failed fear tests. My core choices may well go back to being more mixed than before. (Currently it's a ghoul list.)

I really doubt we're going to see the hammer units for vampires change, although the 25% cap on rares may mess with some (I know it does mine) but they will still hit very hard.

Chaos Undecided
15-06-2010, 18:34
Be interesting to see if the FAQ or indeed the main rules itself includes any change to the current crumbling rule, with the changes to the way fear works its debatable if it need be as damaging as it can be now. Versus armies with high leadership,including potential rerolls from battle standards if true, our core units certainly wont need any help dying (again).

Malorian
15-06-2010, 18:38
Be interesting to see if the FAQ or indeed the main rules itself includes any change to the current crumbling rule, with the changes to the way fear works its debatable if it need be as damaging as it can be now. Versus armies with high leadership,including potential rerolls from battle standards if true, our core units certainly wont need any help dying (again).

Not to mention that there will be more losses in combat due to more models attacking.


No, I don't think there will be a change to crumbling, rather we are going to have to change how we use them, going to horde formations and adding combat characters for punch.

LevDaddy
15-06-2010, 19:17
I'm really excited. I pre-ordered the Gamers Edition today.

I'm fooling with my homemade VC army builder and I am in love with the synergistic possibilities that we have. Someone mentioned the 30 unit of GG, with GWs, Banner of the Barrows and a WK or 2 on the other thread. Throw in Van Hels and the Helm - that will be a unit right there. Lotta attacks, lotta Killing blows.

I wonder if we will be able to KB/Poison from the 2nd and 3rd ranks? I don't see why not, but wow, that is deadly. I rarely used GG's in 7th but I think they'll be a staple of mine in 8th. What happens with the Black Coach will be huge. If they still can absorb all pool dice per turn then they will be fully powered in no time as well as giving you some pretty decent magic defense on it's own.

The 25% min core doesn't seem to be changing me too much as I usually took about 50-75 Skellies/Ghouls in 7th, but, for me anyway, the lists I'm coming up with are pretty balanced between Chars/Core/Special/Rare but I am having a bit of trouble deciding on what to with characters. 8th Magic looks fun, but my 7th edition flying, Death Lore caster Lord will look waaaaay different in 8th, but it still could be cool. What do you guys think you'll try? Some people have mentioned multiple WK's and Necros with hybrid Vamps in there, what else?

Chaos Undecided
15-06-2010, 19:28
Personally I'm still waiting for final confirmation on the character points limits, local black shirt had the book (still sealed for now unfortunately) and insisted it was 25% for all characters just this weekend. Now that the books finally appeared though the campaign of misinformation that seems to have surrounded this release will soon be done and I can make firm plans once I've seen it written in black and white, rather than white and black.... or green or orange :p.
At present though I think my core in 2k will consist of two 25+ units of skele's plus another of ghouls backed up with a couple of carts and the obligatory graveguard block and then go from there.

fall3nang3l
15-06-2010, 22:31
wow you guys are far ahead of me. I only have a slight idea of how im going to change my army for 8th. i currently run a skeleton horde list, with 1 25 man, 3 15 man units of skeletons. I guess im waiting for how our current magic items/powers will change and the new set of common magic items list.

my main question im waiting for the answer for is: does the 25% heroes still limit the number of heroes we can take? If not, ill probably take 1 close combat vampire hero, keep my wight king, and add 2-3 necros.

what are your thoughts on cavalry specifically black knights? I never used them in 7th, but are the changes enough for me to start trying them out??

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:34
No limit on number of characters, just %.

LevDaddy
15-06-2010, 23:11
I think 25% for Lords and 25% for Heroes is about as confirmed as it's going to get. The only limits on slots/numbers are:

Special Choices: No more than 3 of the same type - Examples; No more than 3 units of Chaos Knights, or 3 units of Forsaken etc in the same army.
Rare Choices: No more than 2 of the same type - Examples; No more than 2 Hellcannons, or 2 Chaos Giants etc in the same army.
With some exceptions for Elves.

Tomalock
16-06-2010, 03:49
Well, I spent the bulk of the day reading and discussing the new book with fellow LGSers. It is a whole lot to take in. Most of the rumors were pretty accurate going into the final days leading up to the black boxes shipping. The only one that wasn't really in there that any of us could find was the core with standards counting as scoring. Only one of the 6 battle missions requires standards and it wasn't core specific. So ghoul heavy lists should do ok as long as your other units have some standards sprinkled in.

As expected, magic is going to be a potential punch in the face. The miscasts are truely awful and you only get them on double 6s (still get irresistable force, but I'd gladly drop that if I didn't have to miscast haha). The thing that I hadn't really heard about was that outside of the base level spell, none of your mages can take a spell that another mage in your force already has. That might not be a big deal, but I was really hoping to spread danse around a bit. The other was that bound items require casting dice now. Thankfully ours are all level 3s, so it should be easy to cast. In fact with a 1 or a 2 being an auto failure on a single dice, you either get it or its an autofail. You also don't get to add your mage/vampire's level to the bound spell cast. However, all of the new lores are extremely powerful, so taking vamp's with Forbidden Lore will ease the pain of only getting one of all of the vampire spells. All in all, I think magic will be a tough phase to rely on for us, so probably better to have a Plan B (ie combat) in mind when building your lists.

True line of sight, volly fire, and all the changes to warmachines means that shooting is going to be a real pain as we advance accross the board. If you are facing any sort of a gunline be prepared to take it in the face until you reach them.

Dire Wolves have lost a lot of their usefulness for a couple reasons. First with true line of sight all they do is offer a -1 to hit for the unit they are screening. Second, you can test to restrain from frenzy now (just a leadership test), so with a Vamp Lord in a unit of Blood Knights, its almost not even worth having the wolves out in front. You can still redirect charges to a degree so I plan to keep a couple units in, but not all 4.

Core units that do not count towards current core req's do not count towards the min 25% core you have to take. So if you are doing 2500 you have to take 625pts of zombies, skeletons, and/or ghouls. Its going to make some of you sad, but just face the reality and bulk up those units.

Charging is as random as everyone said. Even dwarfs can currently charge up to 15 inches (in the absence of an errata). Today's post on the GW website has the charge page so you can read it for yourself there, but I think it is a way to mitigate all that shooting that is bound to be comming our way now that it got really buffed and the magic phase has turned into a Tiananmen Square reenactment.

The Screaming Banner is huge. Take it. I am almost tempted to drop the hatred banner from my Blood Knights in favor of it. Supernatural Horror might something to consider as well now that a unit has to take a terror test every time you charge them.

Blah so much to absorb! Thats all I'll say for now, trying to take all that in and restructure my list even more. I had built it with 8th in mind and most of the rumors are spot on, but I definatly need to rethink some things. Hope this helps!

fall3nang3l
16-06-2010, 16:24
Good to hear some army specific news from the new book. I'm heading to my local shop after work to look at it. anyone have a specific question or rule i should focus on??

its a real shame to hear that we wont be able to rely on magic... our magic phase used to make up for our lack of shooting which is apparently going to hurt a lot now.


... and the magic phase has turned into a Tiananmen Square reenactment.

i Lol'd
-probably gonna sig it when i have the time.

fall3nang3l
16-06-2010, 16:46
pulled this off the "just saw the rulebook" thread



***also as a side not I do recall reading that the army books supercede the rule book for their own lores. in other words vampire players need not worry, they can still cast necromancy spells as many times as they like and can still spam on one die if they choose too, but if the sum of the dice the roll is 2 or less the spell fails and that wizard can't cast anything futher that turn. So if they chose to spam invocation they just need to roll 3+ on a sigle die to succeed.

im thinking 3 necromancers minimum.


o and Tomalock, we can still buy vanheils for our necromancers because it doesnt count against the "1 spell per army" rule, at least thats what im expecting (and it would screw over a bunch of armies if it does, i.e. skaven + warplock engineers).

Chaos Undecided
16-06-2010, 18:25
I think its a safe bet that Necromantic spells are excluded from that rule of only one caster having a certain spell, unless they want to force us to take forbidden lore on characters.

Joe Firebrand
16-06-2010, 22:07
***also as a side not I do recall reading that the army books supercede the rule book for their own lores. in other words vampire players need not worry, they can still cast necromancy spells as many times as they like and can still spam on one die if they choose too, but if the sum of the dice the roll is 2 or less the spell fails and that wizard can't cast anything futher that turn. So if they chose to spam invocation they just need to roll 3+ on a sigle die to succeed.

So by sum of the dice roll does he mean the "natural" dice roll before modifiers or the total afterward? Because the sum of a regular vampire on the roll of a 2 would be: the dice roll of 2 + Wizard Lvl of 1 + Lord of Dead bonus of 1 (2+1+1) which would be enough to cast Invo. I am probably reading it wrong but just want to double check.

Tomalock
17-06-2010, 05:49
It is a natural roll of 1 or 2. Otherwise a level 4 vampire would never fail invo on a single dice.

One other important thing to look at is the Corpse Cart. There is zero drawback to casting with a Corpse Cart. There are two parts to the bound spell miscasting. If it is an item then it crumbles to dust on a miscast and cannot be used again. For none item bound spells it cannot be cast again that turn. As the Corpse Cart's bound spell is not an item, it has no drawbacks besides just not getting the spell off. It is already a great unit, but that just makes it a really big deal if you want to shy away from a casting heavy VC army.

The necromantic spells will be a grey area until the errata is released. As it stands right now the only spell that they should be able to take is invo and maybe raise dead as I am still not 100% on how that would be treated in an army book that actually has a base zero spell. If that does turn out to be true, then all it takes is a single necromancer to have it and none of your vampires can take it. You could load up with the necros but vampires don't have the same rule so they would be bound by the 1 caster per spell restriction in the rule book.

A couple of my friends played a practice game today (O&G vs. Bretonians) and it was interesting to watch. They played scenario 6, which is the one that has an objective. I would reccomend having atleast one unit of core that is around 20 models for that mission incase you win the roll. I would also reccomend having a decent number of banners in your army for scenario 4. They are only 25 VPs now so losing a bunch of them isn't has devestating as it was in 7th.

There are so many more variables now, try to keep that in mind if you build a list that is designed to do a specific thing or revolves around a certain gameplay mechanic. Everything from charge distance, to what unknown special rule that forest has when you first go to enter it, to the magic phase, and many many more are all hard to predict. With so many blocks of troops able to be steadfast (confers stubbern) be prepared for the fight to not go your way if you undercommit to it. It is too early to draw serious conclusions, especially in the absence of erratas, but this edition changes almost every aspect of the game in some way, shape, or form. All I can say is expect the unexpected because every game will be different now.

Demandrer
17-06-2010, 09:35
Interesting changes. I personally played magic heavy with my vamps. Being limited to 12 power dice now and opponents without magic defense easily getting 6 combined with the insane miscast rules and the fact that only one person in your army can have each spell , i am definetely going horde based with full combat.
This is a shame for me i loved the fact that it didnt matter how many skellies etc died as i could bring them to life in the magic phase but not going to be anywhere as powerful now

Illiterate Scribe
17-06-2010, 11:35
the magic phase has turned into a Tiananmen Square reenactment.

That's deeply, deeply, offensive.


the fact that only one person in your army can have each spell , i am definetely going horde based with full combat.

I really don't think this is going to be a problem -


As no two spells from the rulebook Lores can be duplicated in the army (except the Basic Spell), if you want more than 1 wizard to have spells from the same lore you now have a choice to make.


Possibly Lore of the Vampires spells - and definitely Necromantic ones - seem to be exempt.

Voss
17-06-2010, 12:35
Damn... In my lists I had made for 8th I had at least assumed that carts would be counted. If not then I'll need a lot more ghouls (I'd say skeletons but I traded all mine away in 7th).

Well 71 ghouls to meet 25% in 2250... that's 3 fully ranked units of 20 and a bunker.

Guess there will be no reason to take summon ghouls. Using 2 dice and adding your magic level means the +1 isn't needed, and usually wouldn't be getting much bigger than 20 anyway... unless...

What if you ran the ghouls/skeletons in horde? Two units of 30 (10 wide) and a bunker covers your core, and even though the back ranks of ghouls would only get 1 attack (another reason to go skeletons) 40 poison attacks is nothing to put up your nose at.

Thoughts?

The temptation to buy a bunch of mantic ghouls and do a ghoul horde is... rather high, actually. I'm sure I have an old strigoi vampire hanging around somewhere.

Ghouls might actually be better than skeleton spearmen. The # of attacks is the same (20+10+10 rather than 10+10+10+10), and I'm fairly comfortable with T4 rather than armour. The real killer is when units fail their fear test- they'll be hitting the ghouls on 5+ rather than 4+. Poison is another bonus, which may make up for the lack of command. Plus they are a little cheaper than Skeleton Spearmen. The slightly higher init will also help against some armies as well- simultaneous with empire, before orcs, gobbos and dwarves.

Definitely some interesting choices afoot.

Tomalock
17-06-2010, 17:19
There are a couple reasons why its worth having atleast a unit or two of skele's in the army.

1) You do need banners for scenario 4. If you have them in the rest of your list, great, but make sure you are over the point level breakpoint or you would just auto lose at the start of the game (this combined with #3 are a good reason to have 90pt zombie units as well).

2) Not only do skeletons have an armor save, but hand weapon and shield no longer gives +1 armor in close combat. Instead you have a +6 parry ward save. So for anything strength 4 or lower you get your armor (5 or 6) and the parry save while the ghouls get nothing.

3) Musicians are a big deal in 8th. If you have one you can take a leadership test before you move and if you pass you get to reform and then move your M value (no marching). So skeletons have greater flexibility to react to incomming enemies or position better for a Vanhel's Danse.

4) Spears fight in 3 ranks now, or 4 if you build your formation with the horde rule (10 wide). So if you ever decided to run spear skeletons, they are a good unit to let the enemy charge and have to suffer through all of those attacks.

I am not saying that skeletons are better than ghouls by any streatch. I have both in my build for 8th. However I think that skeletons do have a place and its probably worth considering atleast a single unit of them to shore up the lines or a flank. Remember, its not just about killing power, its also about sticking around as your enemy most likely will be too.

fall3nang3l
18-06-2010, 20:36
had a discussion with my gw manager, and came to the realization that we could reduce the flimzyness of our magic phase by taking more than 1 master of the black arts. in 7th MOTBA on a hero was a waste because he only had 1 spell to use them on. now they go to the collective pool. so with a lord with MOTBA and a hero with MOTBA and some magic weapons( there are a lot of cheap magic armor and weapons now). so thats a base +4 power dice per turn, so if we roll snake eyes for PD. enemy gets 1 dispel, we get 6 power dice (not including channeling).

minimum of 6 power dice per magic phase. and yes if we roll 8+ then we waste the dice but could be the price we pay.

Joe Firebrand
18-06-2010, 21:56
Thanks for clarifying that. I hope i might be right but figured that I was probably wrong. I also think Fall3nang3l has a good point MotBA but I'm not certain taking more than one is necessary, or at least giving it to the lord is necessary. Instead I would give the lord forbidden lore and use him as a beatstick in the magic phase and only the vamps/necros to shore up loses or danse. At first I thought that the changes to the magic phase killed vampire counts armies but Fall3nang3l has helped remind me that it is not all that bad.

LevDaddy
18-06-2010, 22:31
Yeah, I like that.

Give MOTBA to a hero vamp, give him some armor and keep him safe and in casting range, or maybe with some armor and the Helm in a bunker in the back line.

8th is also nudging us to use bigger blocks of core and since wizard levels are added to casting spells the Master Powers are not as useful as they were in 7th (barring any erratas). So I'm liking this 'MOTBA battery' idea. I don't know if I'd double it up though, I'd rather my Lord have Forbidden Lore as well.

fall3nang3l
18-06-2010, 22:37
That is a really good idea that i didnt think about.

and also we may be capped at 12 power dice, but how many did we generate per phase in 7th? 12 maybe 13 or 14? and since it isnt going to be hard to get 12 power dice (channeling is better in practice than it seems on paper) we are maybe 1 or 2 power dice short AND we get to add our magic level to every single spell we cast.

The changes in magic are even better in smaller point games. Imagine a 1k point game with maybe 1 or 2 vampires fully decked for close combat. We always get invo and we get 2d6 pd PER TURN to use on casting invo to cast as many times as we please. We've gone from 1 lvl1 hero and 2 table dice = 3 PD to 2d6 lets say 8 PD.


Basically, our necromancy spells still gives us the edge against other armies.
Think of it this way. rather than take caster lords to throw our magic through the roof. Now, our magic is still as effective as it was, and its easier to generate [power dice]. So we can focus on being better in close combat while still throwing out a deadly magic phase.


Also on a side note.
how big and what size are you guys planning on running your units? 7 wide 5 deep? 10 wide 4 deep? I'm agreeing with my GW manager and thinking 3k is going to be the new 2k. We are going to see not more units but more of our existing units. I'm thinking of upgrading my 20 unit of GG to 40 with GW and horde for 550 pts (surprising only a ~200 pt upgrade) and my 3 skeletons units either 7wideX5deep or 10wideX4deep.

And anyone considering using the Lore of Death?? I know i am.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 23:09
From my games so far Im thinking:
~Large block of Spear or HW/S Skeletons ARE better than ghouls, if for no other reason they can take musicians for the reforming moves.

~Large 25+ man blocks, perhaps even larger of grave guard will be good. Denying Steadfast to opponents will be key. My gut impression is GWs are the way to go.

~Black Coach the new best rare? I think so. I doubt I will ever field a vargulf again. BC+Wraiths/Ban will likely become a common config.

~With all the terrain now in games, I love Black Knights. Unclear how they will be optimized in 8th: big block of 10 to break ranks, smaller units of 5 etc.

~MOTBA is spectacular now, but I would still only have 1 Vampire Lord (equipped with the heavy armor/4+ward suit and flight perhaps) and 1 Vampire (MOTBA here too?). Wight king would be the perma BSB. I would stick to 3 characters at 2000-2999pt games.

~Would definitely find space for that 1 dispel scroll to stop a rd1 Kadon Summoning shenanigans

~Things to consider: Vampire with Forbidden Lore-->Lore of Beasts-->Summoning of Kadon-->Fire Dragon "Mothra" action, I would probably not risk morphing into Mothra with my lord.

~I love the new Lore of Light (Time Warp, Exorcism, Speed of Light, etc) for its overall versatility in improving our otherwise crappy WS forces. I would definitely consider a casty Lord hiding somewhere behind the lines with FL: Light and MOTBA) carrying the Helm of Command.(this actually sounds awesome that I type it out..):shifty:

Major_Blackhart
18-06-2010, 23:18
You know what I love about the new magic items? How similar ones cost about the same. +3 attacks or +3 Strength. Similar costs. It lets you really customize a combat oriented lord quite a bit at a glance at the enemy's list. See alot of horde enemies lightly armored? +2 or +3 attack sword. WoC or ogres or something similar with alot of heavy armor/high toughness? +2 or +3 strength.

Also, is it possible to duplicate weapons and armor in the same list now? I ask because I saw a list (don't know where on here) where two vamps had Flayed Hauberk.

Joe Firebrand
18-06-2010, 23:42
I don't know about dupilicating items in a list but I kinda doubt that would be in.

As far as unit size I plan to run a 40 man block of GG (I'm unsure of GWs because it seems like preventing crumbling will be key because we can't benefit from the steadfast rule and the added defense could really help here). Skeletons will be the back bone of my army with at least two 30 man/corpse blocks to act as anvils and at least two units of ten ghouls (probaly 15) to cover their flanks and try to negate ranks. My problem is that I can't tell how useful the Corpse Cart is going to be, I not 100% certain how bound spells work in 8th so I question if they appear in many lists from now on.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 23:44
I don't know about dupilicating items in a list but I kinda doubt that would be in.

As far as unit size I plan to run a 40 man block of GG (I'm unsure of GWs because it seems like preventing crumbling will be key because we can't benefit from the steadfast rule and the added defense could really help here). Skeletons will be the back bone of my army with at least two 30 man/corpse blocks to act as anvils and at least two units of ten ghouls (probaly 15) to cover their flanks and try to negate ranks. My problem is that I can't tell how useful the Corpse Cart is going to be, I not 100% certain how bound spells work in 8th so I question if they appear in many lists from now on.

the problem I see with HW/S GG is: what is your hammer unit? How are you going to do the wounds to destroy 40+ man marauder blocks, 50-60 man goblin hordes etc...

Joe Firebrand
19-06-2010, 00:04
I was thinking either Wraiths or Bloodknights as a hammer unit. ButI do see your point. My main problem is that 8th edition adds a lot of carnage to the game, which then gets doubled if a unit can't pull off a win. if a 40 man block of spearmen loss combat by 7 after taking that many wounds, no big deal. They will proably get to roll a stubborn leadership test using their generals leadership. However if a unit of 40 skeletons loses in the same way they take an additional 7 wounds.

I think I will run the numbers and see if the extra wounds balance out with possible prevented wounds that the 6+ward gives.

DrMabutu
19-06-2010, 00:50
Another advantage of the 2d6 power dice thing, is that the enemy on average will not have a massive ammount of dispell dice. And with Master of the Black arts, black periapt, and a couple of necromancers for channeling, our power dice should be a good many more :D

LevDaddy
19-06-2010, 00:51
And anyone considering using the Lore of Death?? I know i am.

Might I ask why? I wasn't too enamored by it. I'd like to see at least one spell that can cause multiple casualties that isn't Initiative based (I play against a lot of DE). It seems to be more of a multi-wound model (like Dragons/Monsters) assassin and hex lore, which is cool, as opposed to a major carnage lore, like Fire.

I'd like to know how you'd intend to use it or build around it.

Joe Firebrand
19-06-2010, 02:12
Might I ask why? I wasn't too enamored by it. I'd like to see at least one spell that can cause multiple casualties that isn't Initiative based (I play against a lot of DE). It seems to be more of a multi-wound model (like Dragons/Monsters) assassin and hex lore, which is cool, as opposed to a major carnage lore, like Fire.

I'd like to know how you'd intend to use it or build around it.

The biggest advantage from the lore of death that I can see is its ability to create more power dice based on how many models it kills. The icing on the cake for me is that I believe that it has a spell or two that might reduce Ld. Now that fear is rolled for every turn, a hex that reduces Ld combined with the screaming banner means that there is a good chance that anything not ITP will get affected by fear.

However I seem to be pretty short sighted so those are just the benefits I caught from it. Personally the lore of shadow seems like a better lore on a spell v spell level, but its super spell works off of Ld so the majority of the VC units that would benefit from it aren't able to really get a boost. (Zombie and Skeletons Ld are equal to their strength so no WS7 Str 7-9 ASF Zombies)

malisteen
19-06-2010, 03:24
Just played my first 1k game, victory vs. empire.

My list: pretty bland - 20 ghouls, 20 skellies, vamp (gtwep, flayed, and a common item allowing re-rolled armor saves), necro w/ dispel scroll & vanhels, cart, 2 units of wolves, varghulf.

Opponant: big unit of flagellants, big unit of swordsmen with war priest and level 4 mage, great cannon, mortar.

highlights - the mortar is way more deadly now. And hordes of flagellants are butcher-tastic, use zombies & wolves to redirect 'em. The real deciding factor was magic. my poor level ones were simply unable to stop the level four, even with balefire and a dispel scroll, while adding his lord's level to dispel attempts made casting anything from my end a nightmare, even with the dice advantage to offense.

Trading the 'gulf for the level 4 won me the game (the ghulf is a beast, don't count it out. Thunder stomp is a nice ability). As soon as his mage lord died, I was able to pump out a summon undead hoard and a van-hels each turn, pretty easily turning the game around, though I admit the hoard was a risky prospect with the current miscast rules.

Very swingy. small games against enemies with discount mage lords are going to be a pain.

DrMabutu
19-06-2010, 08:08
Playing my first 2000pt game tommorrow; heres my list. I thought id try out some Necromancer spam to see how well it works.


Lords
Vampire Lord (Extra Magic Level, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Might, Crown of the Damned, Black Periapt, Forbidden Lore, Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Summon Ghouls) – 440pts (Lore of Fire or Shadow, haven't decided yet:What do ppl think?)
Heroes
Vampire (Master of the Black Arts, Helm of Commandment) – 180pts (Lore of Vampires)
Necromancer – 55pts (Lore of Vampires)
Necromancer – 55pts (Lore of Vampires)
Necromancer (Extra Spell) – 70pts (Lore of Vampires)
Wight King (Sword of Kings, Gem of Blood) – 125pts
Core
25 Ghouls (Ghast) – 208pts
30 Skeletons (Command, Spears, Banner of the Endless Nightmare) – 315pts
31 Zombies (Command) – 136pts
Corpse Cart (Balefire) – 100pts
Special
20 Grave Guard (Command, Banner of the Barrows) – 315pts
Total – 1999pts

Frgt/10
19-06-2010, 10:58
this may have been mentioned already, but the black coach is crazy-good in 8th ed

- it cant be insta-gibbed by str 7
- it sucks in dice much more often due to pool dice generation changes
- at level 3 it has a 1+ ward save against magic
- at level 5, it becomes practically invulnerable to non-skaven armies due to shrugging off magic due to the above.
who else is using 2? :p

Major_Blackhart
19-06-2010, 15:18
I'm honestly just psyched that VC's can have a combat lord with insane combat abilities without having to go the standard boring route of dreadlance.
Also, thinking about doing a combat lord, but do lords need to still take avatar of death or dread knight in order to take armor and still be able to cast?

Frgt/10
19-06-2010, 17:03
I'm honestly just psyched that VC's can have a combat lord with insane combat abilities without having to go the standard boring route of dreadlance.
Also, thinking about doing a combat lord, but do lords need to still take avatar of death or dread knight in order to take armor and still be able to cast?

no
they never needed to in the first place...
edit: unless you're referring to mundane armour and not magical

Tomalock
19-06-2010, 17:54
I too am going Lore of Light. Getting to buff a unit with WS 10 and I 10 on an 8 or every unit within 12 inches on something like a 12 or so is awsome. Getting to double a units movement, give it +1 attack and ASF on a 12 and every unit within 12 inches on like an 18 or so is spectacular. My unit of 9 Blood Knights with the Lord and a BSB vamp are going to beat faces in even more then they already could (thats 29 str 7 attacks on the charge not counting my lord and bsb) if they get that off. Thats a potential 26 inch charge on turn 2 if I get the latter spell off and get a good roll for my charge.

I was also looking at Lore of Death simply for the -3 to the enemy unit's leadership. Its really good for the fear tests. It is even better when that unit gets charged by anything causing terror. Throw in the potential dice generation for the lore's bonus and its a really nice spell. However at the moment I find Light to be a bit better, especially with my Blood Knights.

On the subject of magice, we did find the section where it says that if wizards know all spells in a lore or pay for spells that they do get them and thus can be duplicated accross the army. However, if you pay for a spell or have a vampire that knows all of the spells in the lore, then they are still known for the purposes of the other vampires that don't have those rules. So keep that in mind if you take Forbidden Lore and chose the Vampire Lore. With that said, Forbidden Lore is amazing and I'd reccomend taking it on atleast one vampire, or more if you have the points.

I'm also playing a practice game today, of 2500 points (which is looking to be the new standard). It is:

Vampire Lord w/ Dreadk Knight, Blood Drinker, Book of Arkhan 305pts
Vampire w/ BSB, Dreadknight, Drakenhof Banner 275pts
Necromancer w/ Danse, Invo, Corpse Cart 145pts

Zombies x20 w/ Musician, Standard 92pts
Crypt Ghouls x20 w/ Ghast 168pts
Skeletons x20 w/ Banner (5pt one from new book), Champ, Musician 185pts
Skeletons x20 w/ Standard, Champ, Musician 180pts
Corpse Cart 75pts

Black Knights x10 w/ Standard of Hellish Vigour 281pts
Grave Guard x15 w/ Standard, Musician, Champ, Great Weapons 230pts

Blood Knights x9 w/ Musician, Standard of Strigos 560pts

Total: 2496pts
Lords: 305pts
Heroes: 420pts
Core: 625 Towards Reqs, 75pts other
Special: 511pts
Rare: 560pts

So everything is good to go in terms of the %, with core being right at the 25% mark haha. For scenario 4 I have 9 (or 10 if the BSB counts for 2 like the general, cant remember). I also have plenty of 20 man core units to choose from for scenario 6 if I should win the roll and get to place a unit in the watchtower objective. The only thingI wish I had was level 4 on the lord for getting those Light spells off easier and having a good dispeller.

fall3nang3l
19-06-2010, 17:55
Might I ask why? I wasn't too enamored by it. I'd like to see at least one spell that can cause multiple casualties that isn't Initiative based (I play against a lot of DE). It seems to be more of a multi-wound model (like Dragons/Monsters) assassin and hex lore, which is cool, as opposed to a major carnage lore, like Fire.

I'd like to know how you'd intend to use it or build around it.

It seems like a good support type lore. The -3 to Ld can help practically any unit in our army. purple sun is a nuke that though you may not use, its probably a good scare tactic against your opponent because they might try and save a scroll or dice just in case you take the chance. 24" -1s and -1t could be really useful to reduce our casualties. And the... 3 spells to snipe out characters seems extremely useful against enemy mages perhaps?? Also, since our army book overrides the new rulebook, we do get Invo as a bonus spell still.

basically my thoughts would be to give it to a caster that is going to primarily be a support healer. Obviously it isnt a damage dealing lore like fire is but, it does have a fair amount of useful support spells that the lore of vampires doesnt offer. And besides, if you do get one of the 3 single target spells off on an enemy mage, safe bet is that youre going to kill him/her.

Joe Firebrand
19-06-2010, 20:39
I am curious to hear how the Necromancer spam goes. With maximum of 12 PD (even if death can generate more, its not likely to be more than one or two extra I think) after two or three wizards they seem to become redundant and start stealing each others resources.

Finn
19-06-2010, 21:05
I also think we'll see more use out of Ethereal units. Which is great, because I have a ton of them. The Black Coach looks like something I need to pick up as well.

I'm on the fence about Black Knights. I never, ever used them before as they were so prohibitively expensive compared to Grave Guard. Honestly, I expect to see smaller blocks of cavalry in general, and I think using 5 Black Knights as a quick flanking force might be a viable idea. Despite what I read on the first couple pages, I3 still strikes at the same time as most basic human infantry, and with a 2+ save I wouldn't be all that scared of S3 troops.

Same goes for Skellies. I don't care that we don't get to strike first on the charge anymore, barring some magic stuff, it's the Step Up that I care about. I'm looking forward to actually being able to swing with every guy in the front rank.

I'm not terribly concerned with the magic phase. I think with just a couple of buffing things that we took before, like Master of the Black Arts, we'll be able to keep close to what was already a respectable number of dice at minimum (I think I had 8 in a 2k list before). 4-12 power dice is low if you roll snake eyes, but 6-12 is decent. That said I'll probably just run one Vampire w/MotBA as I prefer to take advantage of the Vampire statline for combat, spending all 50 of my bloodline points on one power bugs me.

I look forward to being able to bring more Wight Kings as well ;). And being able to use Necromancers again, it annoyed me how the models were never even considered for my 7E army lists.

On the whole, I'm anticipating that more balanced VC lists will become much more viable due to the Step Up and charge changes, while those that took beastly units before will become more of points-sink lists. Looking forward to it.

fall3nang3l
20-06-2010, 06:06
So i uhh... played my first 8th ed game. Played 1500 points against my friends Empire.

I should describe what my list and what his list was right about

[here]

but. funny thing, none of the list composition actually matters in comparison to what actually happens.

Heres what happened. for 1500 points i thought id try bringing a cheap lord because he didnt have enough points to make 2k.
Vamp Lord, MOTBA (didnt have enough points to fit in a motba caddy; 150/375 is a good chunk of heroes comp), forbidden lore, infinite hatred, lord of the dead, Flayed Hauberk (2+ armor), crown of the damned (4+ ward,stupidity). comes to 365 points.

so heres the kicker. I took lore of death because i wanted to try it out as ive been discussing earlier in the thread. rolled a 10 for power dice first turn; +2 was 12 dice so i couldnt channel. casted invo twice from the hero vampire to boost the skeletons size. Then, from the lord, used 3 power dice to cast one of the single target spells on one of my friends enemy wizards, killed the wizard and rolled irresistable force. I rolled a 3 on the miscast table. thats a S10 LARGE blast template right in the middle of my Grave Guard. wiped out 17/20 of the unit. then you roll a d6. on a 1-3 the caster is pulled into the warp and is removed from play.

I rolled a 3 :cries:

My friend didn't have to do anything to win.

bottom line. Magic is VERY risky business. I know just got extremely unlucky but I am definitely going to be stingy about relying on my vamp lord as my main caster. ill probably try using him as a motba caddy and use a hero vamp with forbidden lore as my powerhouse caster. I guess ill have to play a couple games where the Dice Gods DON'T curse me but it seems to me like as a general rule, I'm going to be abusing my cheap lvl 1-2 wizards to cast the high level spells and using my level 3-4 with big bonuses to cast the smaller and more necessary spells. because it is so easy to miscast and they are all extremely harmful.

P.S. Place your wizards in the FAR left or FAR right front corner of your units.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-06-2010, 09:27
Are spirit hosts now classed as monstrous infantry (due to 40mm base size)?

nonrelatedarticle
20-06-2010, 11:11
They always were ogre sized infantry => monstrous infantry .

Frgt/10
20-06-2010, 15:09
spirit hosts with stomp attacks then...lol :D

CaliforniaGamer
20-06-2010, 15:33
is everyone working under the assumption that MOtBA will add to the pool dice since individual wizards dont have separate dice per se??

Finn
20-06-2010, 15:59
is everyone working under the assumption that MOtBA will add to the pool dice since individual wizards dont have separate dice per se??

I don't think so. I'd play it as those 2 dice are his to use alone, because that's basically what it says. Unless of course it gets changed in the errata.

Yrrdead
21-06-2010, 12:01
So I played a couple of 8th ed games this weekend. Here are the general impressions that I got.

Black Coach is pretty silly. It is definitely going to need an errata. I played a lower point game with one and it was level 5 by turn 3.

Forbidden Lore is AMAZING. The options it gives vamps is kind of silly.

Dual Lords at 2250 is great.

Banners being key for a default scenario makes my ghouls sad.

Wight Kings are in.
Grave Guard with GW's are back in a big way imo.

Single casting Invo is very very doable. Depending on your power dice vs. dispell dice you can just single cast spam with every caster at the end of the phase. No chance to miscast and if you roll a 1 or 2 you are done anyway.

Here are some things that I will be testing out this week. (2250)

Lords - Two combat lords relatively stock. One w/ tomb blade and LOD
Hero's - Vamp w/ FL (x2 maybe?) and a wight king
Core - 2x Skeletons, 2 x DW (war machines), a couple 15 strong ghouls if i can find the points
Special - Grave Guard.
Rare - Blood Knights and a BC

*Edit* - Corpse carts are pretty dead imo. Though balefire and lodestone abilities are still good i'm not sure that I want to pay the associated points cost for those abilities. And due to the interaction of ASF + ASL i'm pretty meh about them.

Frgt/10
21-06-2010, 13:38
Are spirit hosts now classed as monstrous infantry (due to 40mm base size)?


They always were ogre sized infantry => monstrous infantry .

checked the book today, the reference in the back has spirit hosts classified as swarms, even though it isn't so in the VC book
methinks the faq will have something to do with that...


need an errata. I played a lower point game with one and it was level 5 by turn 3.

you must have had a quiet game power dice wise, i got mine to full power inside my opponents first turn :D
ie: 2 magic phases

constant_ones
22-06-2010, 05:12
Hello everyone, I'm a bit new to the forum and just joined as a result of taking up fantasy after a long, long break from the hobby. Generally in 7th I found my skeletons with spears were more a factor of me enjoying how they looked rather than how they performed. With the new horde rules in 8th, is there really a good reason to create 10x4 skeletons, essentially aren't we risking loosing our rank bonus security for more attacks, which as spears tended to prove, were not that effectual at winning a combat?

Yrrdead
22-06-2010, 08:20
Your assessment seems correct to me. The basic tactics of skeletons hasn't changed. SCR, unbreakable , rezable troops. With a terrible WS and S3 I won't be using them as horde ever. 7 (assuming 5wide opponent ) more ws2 s3 attacks don't seem worth it.

I'll be using my skeletons 5x5 or 5x6 with hw+sh. With some sort of character with a tomb blade. That should hold a unit in place long enough for me to hit them in the flank with well just about anything else in our army.

A battle of attrition is a battle vampires better win :)

Maoriboy007
22-06-2010, 09:22
Black Coach is pretty silly. It is definitely going to need an errata. I played a lower point game with one and it was level 5 by turn 3.

Nah its fine, it'll kill as many dice for the VC (far more vital) than it would for your opponant. In our test game it sucked up 4 of my dice and only one of my opponants. Having to wait 6 turns in 7th to get a decent benefits out of the ability was a pain too. By the time it could fly the game was over anyway.


Forbidden Lore is AMAZING. The options it gives vamps is kind of silly. .

Its a good incentive to pick the new lores over the standard Necromancy lore. And do you spend the points on an extra level? or on Knowing all lores or MotBA. Actually having to consider what bloodlines to take is a good thing.


Dual Lords at 2250 is great..

But expensive, and you can end up underequipping them when those opints start to stretch.


Single casting Invo is very very doable. Depending on your power dice vs. dispell dice you can just single cast spam with every caster at the end of the phase. No chance to miscast and if you roll a 1 or 2 you are done anyway...

SUmmon Horde is actually worth considering as a worthwile use of your dice.


*Edit* - Corpse carts are pretty dead imo. Though balefire and lodestone abilities are still good i'm not sure that I want to pay the associated points cost for those abilities. And due to the interaction of ASF + ASL i'm pretty meh about them.

Its more that you need to spend power dice on thier abilites, and you find quite easily that those dice are precious, especially as your opponant gets half of them for free.

Yrrdead
22-06-2010, 10:47
Yeah chucked some dice today and went over a few things with my buddy. In short I agree dual lords while fun isn't a great idea. My current list that I'll play this week is a single lord. My hero points are still pretty big so I'll see how that goes. The black coach I'm on the fence with as well.

Though I think its the fact that my two black coaches need to be painted/ fully assembled that makes me want to leave them on the shelf.

Areku
22-06-2010, 16:27
Depending on whether the first spell in Beasts is RIP in play or not will make a large difference in how I set up my lord (and the rest of my army) in the list I wrote up last night. If it isn't RIP than we have the choice of HW+S GG that can now be S5 T5. If we go GW with them they're now S7 T5 (not too bad for foot troops) but then we need to rely on van hels to not go last. Also, with the Ogre blade that would make a theoretical lord of S8 T6 with 5 attacks, infinite hatred, and a 2+4++ save: not something to laugh at.

(Synergy wise you could have a helm vamp in a bunker behind this unit effectively making the GG WS6 on top of that buff). Keep in mind there's also a spell that adds +3T to characters (if these abilities stack ie: Wildform, the basic spell, is a straight buff and not RIP, but Pann's Pelt is RIP, you're now looking at a S8 T9 vamp lord.

Mix this with another caster vamp with Shadows or Light (debuffs for shadow include WS, BS, I, M, and also D3 S and D3 T) Or making your unit WS10 and I10 for a round of combat (or let's say lucky and you get off the last spell for double move, +1A and ASF.

Yea, magic is risky, but with the new lores you can do so much (S8 Blood Knights on the charge with T6? S4 T5 Ghouls? Oh the list goes on from a basic spell.)

Needless to say, I'm basing my list currently around a Lord with Beasts, a raising vamp (summon ghouls for my two large blocks and bunker), a BSB (rerollable stupidity for the crown that I still love), and a Shadows or Light Vamp. The new lores add so much more synergy than before. (Except Okkam's Chainsword which is crap for our units unless it lets them use the hero's leadership....)

LevDaddy
22-06-2010, 17:46
Can ward saves be taken on the Loss of Control Chart?

I'm thinking about a solo flying Lv. 4 vamp Lord with Forbidden Lore, Crown/Wristbands, Armour of Night and other goodies. Keep him out of combat and just have him cast away.

LevDaddy
22-06-2010, 18:44
Also, FYI - In case it hasn't been brought up yet from the new BRB in re Core reqs:

8th ed BRB, pg134 under Core Units:
'units which state "do not count towards the minimum number of core units you must include/require" do not count towards your required 25% minimum or even the minimum 3 required units for you army!!!

So, for VC only Zombies, Skellies and Ghouls count towards the 25% Core.
Sorry for the double post.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 21:24
Also, FYI - In case it hasn't been brought up yet from the new BRB in re Core reqs:

8th ed BRB, pg134 under Core Units:
'units which state "do not count towards the minimum number of core units you must include/require" do not count towards your required 25% minimum or even the minimum 3 required units for you army!!!

So for VC only Zombies, Skellies and Ghouls count towards the 25% Core.
Sorry for the double post.

Yeah, kinda sucks but was expected at the same time.

Guess that's 71 ghouls or skeletons that all armies must take (or 141 zombies...).

Areku
22-06-2010, 23:02
Unit of 140 zombies, 20 wide, 7 deep? (give it a standard or a straggler?) Then just invo it up to a nice even 200!

What's that, 20mm bases? 400mm across, 140mm deep, 56,000mm area? I think that's a suitable piece of terrain for 564 points.

Toss in a musician and leave it in the back and reform at the end to claim table quarters. (can one unit effectively claim both table quarters at once?)

Malorian
22-06-2010, 23:06
There is no such thing as table quarters in 8th.

Areku
22-06-2010, 23:48
No table quarters is unfortunate. What about using it to protect the tower or temple or w/e it is in that one scenario where the winner fo the roll is allowed to place one core unit there?

constant_ones
23-06-2010, 00:41
Thanks Yrrdead, that is kind of what I assumed about the warriors. It is a shame, the idea of a horde of skeletons dragging down the living through overwhelming is a neat image, too bad on the gaming table it has to be represented by a column.

I'm curious though about your comments about single dice spamming IoN at the end of the turn, and I'm showing how far behind I am on 8th edition rumors, but can't you cause one of those really painful miscasts with a single dice?

You also said how you like GG with great weapons, can you expand on why?

Cheers!

LevDaddy
23-06-2010, 00:57
I'm curious though about your comments about single dice spamming IoN at the end of the turn, and I'm showing how far behind I am on 8th edition rumors, but can't you cause one of those really painful miscasts with a single dice?


Good question, to clarify - You can only 'miscast' on a double 6 in 8th edition. It isn't technically a miscast, it's a combination of miscast and irresistable force, which is now called Loss of Control. The spell goes off without being able to be dispelled, but you have to roll on the new Loss of Control table, which can be devastating.

With one dice casting you will be safe from blowing up, however, the dowside in 8th edition is that any wizard who fails to meet the casting value of a spell, at any time in the magic phase, cannot attempt to cast anymore spells in that phase.

So let's say you only have one wizard on your side. You roll a 6 on 2d6 for your power pool dice for that turn for your army. You try to cast Wind of Undeath with three dice, you don't meet the casting value, spell does not go off, magic phase over. Even though you still have 3 dice left over.

Now, if you have 3 dice left and 2 or 3 other wizards on your side with IoN, then you can one dice spam with the rest of the dice and you'll be safe from Loss of Control and safe from leaving any dice unused.

Darkangeldentist
23-06-2010, 01:23
Played my first game of 8th today 2000pts of Vampires versus vampires. We each were using pretty much the same lists (bar a couple of minor changes) to our previous 2000pt lists. The army composition changes really aren't all that much of an issue. (To us at least.)

My list was a ghoul horde with varghulf and blood knight, his a more mixed arms force with a bit of everything, large unit of grave guard and some black knights for punch.

Magic wasn't all that different in this game. Neither of us rolled double six for casting so never suffered the miscast table. That number 6 spell for the lore of death is sick! Wind of Xereus is damned devastating against undead and although our vampires and even blood knights can take it without too much fear it can still kill them and can generate enough extra power dice through wounds caused to almost give you an extra magic phase. Lore of death is a very good lore for character sniping. Not so awesome against regiments but you'll be making enemy wizards very nervous.

Spamming invocation still works, you'll just be using it to use up dice after casting main/major spells rather than at the start to dummy out dispel dice.

Ghouls still work nicely. Respectable initiative (especially for undead), lots of attacks and poison still gives them good damage output. Skeletons have caught up though. The new benefits from command groups and parry rule have really made them a lot better.

The new charging rules are really fun. Much more interesting and although risky make for some interesting dynamics. Expendable units to like dire wolves to redirect enemy units for when charges fail are going to be much more useful. If you do take these kind of redundency units it also makes going to those long charges more worthwhile. Cavalry actually benefit from this quite a lot as a failed charge doesn't leave them quite as exposed.

The varghulf got a lot better. Ok it'll be striking last most of the time now but thunderstomping stuff really makes a huge difference alongside the changes to combat resolution. Now it can charge a fully ranked up unit and expect to win.:D

I'm not sure about corpse carts, they are listed as monsters in the book so also stomp foes! (Ok it's only S2 but damn it's funny to see it happen.) Having to use power dice to cast it's spell is annoying but if anything it's effect is just as powerful, if not moreso against low initiative armies. (More re-rolls is always welcome.) The balefire effect on enemy spellcasting may stop fewer spells but it's still just as helpful for giving you a better chance at stoping them.

It may have only been 1 game so it's very early to say how 8th will pan out but for a first impression it was very good.

Lastly, use scenery! We used a lot and it had a big impact on the game, mostly in an entertaining way. Creepy forests that turned out not so important as they just reinforced the undeads fear but the arcane ruin (lets you roll more dice for channelling) was fun as was a chaos altar/ruin (not sure exactly what) that either made your characters better or killed them outright. Lost my battle standard on turn 1 to that thing.:shifty: It did make the game much more interesting though as charge lanes and lines of sight weren't so simple and we had to manoeuvre a bit more.

shortlegs
23-06-2010, 02:28
First off, this is not a whine post. Been playing VC for the past 9 years, and I'm just trying my hardest to make VC work in 8th.

The many hits that VC took in 8th:
- lack of invoc spam
- steadfast benefits other armies HUGELY but does nadda for us
- horde: ran some numbers and our infantry just isn't going to cut it against the better horde units. And while other units test stubborn to hold against such units, we just crumble faster
- poor infantry. Our core infantry simply costs too much for what they do compared to everyone else. Goblins fight better, and now they are also more likely to stick around longer. Being hit on 3+ almost all the time really hurts now when everyone is chucking handfuls of dice.
- lack of shooting. Almost every army has some way to benefit from the new shooting rules and thin the enemy out before contact, for some it is their only answer to some of the power-house horde units out there. For VC, we have neither the infantry of sufficient quality to hold these horde units, nor the shooting to render them ineffective before combat.
- poor initiative across the board

Not to be a wet blanket or a whiner, but I'm just wondering ow do VC players deal with the above? Been running the numbers and it seems bleak no matter how I see it. Hope I can glean some useful tactics or advice from others here..

constant_ones
23-06-2010, 03:17
Thanks LevDaddy, that definitely clears up a lot of my questions. I was beginning to wonder how my skeletons were going to fare without being able to safely IoN the losses back. Makes much more sense now.

Are people being proponents of GG with great weapons because of the use on Initiative in 8th? I've always favored GG with a hand weapon and shield, simply because killing blow allows for them to kill larger targets, while the shield provides a little bit of cover for the number of attacks normally landing on them before they get to strike (I'm rather new to fantasy so I find myself being charged more often than I do the charing)

LevDaddy
23-06-2010, 03:34
I think mostly people are backing GG with GWs because of their pure killing power/survivability and all the synergy that you can create with them.

For instance - an 8x3 (or bigger) unit with GWs and full command, along with the Screaming Banner, and a Wight King BSB with the Banner of the Barrows in there is a killing machine.

That's a ton of S6 attacks (front row plus 8 from the 2nd) hitting on 3's (Banner of the Barrows) or 2's if the enemy fails there fear test (which they will take with 3 dice discarding lowest). Plus all those attacks have Killing Blow and the unit is, of course, unbreakable, regenerateable, T4 with Heavy Armor on top. If the enemy does fail their test they will be really hampered on offense as well. Throw some of the new magic and they could even be higher S, T, I, etc and the Musician can help you reform and maneuver with a re-rollable leadership test (since the BSB is right there). Also, a GG champ has (at least a small chance) of winning a challenge against a character due to S6, KB and T4, and that earns you 50 Victory Points in 8th!

Since Calvary has taken a hit as well, our Black Knights, and maybe even our Blood Knights, might not be as survivable or have the killing power of the GGs, and with the changes to magic, the countless army lists that would have taken ZERO magic offense in the past will at least have decent access to cause magical damage so for the points a large unit of GGs is mucho more useful than a medium unit of Wraiths or Spirit Hosts.

Long story short - GGs were always a great infantry unit, and now they have become one of the best in the game with the 8th edition rules.

constant_ones
23-06-2010, 03:43
almost makes me want to go buy another box of grave guard to give the great weapons a spin. If the girlfriend would not kill me for ordering new mini's before getting rid of my old ones :rolleyes:

It seems to me that Black Knights have really been elevated in 8th. Since 8th is a bit more like 40k in terms of terrain, the ethereal mount ability seems like an even bigger boon to get off flank charges/deal with all the warmachines and ranged units that will be more prevalent (as they seem to have gotten a boost) in 8th.

I've always been leery of Blood Knights, as they seems a bit of an all your eggs in one basket for my point level of play (1200-1500) but Black Knights are really appealing to me now.

Darkangeldentist
23-06-2010, 04:51
Whilst not attempting to disagree that grave guard are good I don't think they'll really change that much from present armies.

Great weapons are better since they'll now get to strike but hand weapon and shield still gives far greater survivability for little loss in killing power against normal infantry thanks to killing blow. The change to hand weapon and shield has a very large ripple effect for other armies.

Grave guard are still quite easy to tarpit/avoid for most armies as despite good quality attacks they still don't have masses of them (even with the new rules) and at the rather sad end I and WS for elite troops they can really mess up. (My game saw a unit of 20 with battle standard fail to really make their presence felt through a mixture of poor charge distances and getting bogged down clearing through ghouls.

Cavalry are much more fragile than before, particularly if they aren't striking first or if you are just crap at passing saves. So I do think people will be a bit more thoughtful about how they use them.

Black knights are looking a much safer choice, thanks to the new terrain rules. Cavalry have to deal with dangerous terrain rolls a lot more than other units and although chaos knights are probably the ones upset by this the most I wouldn't want to lose a blood knight to such a test either. Black knights bypass all those complications and just ride through. Blood knights are still my first choice for a hammer unit though. Parry or no they are still going to ride into an enemy unit and slaughter half of it in that first round. If you manage to get a corpse cart cast it's spell on them....:cries: Your opponent will be praying feverishly that they have high I just to stop your rerolls. (Vanhel's is good but that is better!)

I really doubt the horde units are really going to come in with such a surge. I believe you need more ranks than your opponent to claim the stubborn benefit in which case standard frontage will keep your ranks for fewer models. More guys attacking is nice but not at the risk of losing that rank bonus. (Which is now calculated at the end of combat so keeping those ranks is doubly important.) Massive blocks cost a lot, are unwieldy and if flanked it doesn't really matter if they are stubborn or not. They aren't likely to win combats and thus will be slowly ground down.

The slight drop in static combat resolution makes a very big difference to undead in our favour. Particularly to our elite units and characters. A vampire lord is much tougher to pop from static combat resolution. (My opponent's lord was facing blood knights and a mob of ghouls to a standstill until the varghulf charged in and swung things thanks to stomp attacks.)

Invocation spam is far from dead by the way. A level 4 just has to remember to cast his important spells first and then just hope the 3+ keep rolling before handing over to a lesser vampire. Multiple casters of this spell keep it a viable tactic. More so in some respects as the bonuses stack giving a level 4 who casts it an automatic casting total of 8+ on 1 successful roll if he has the right mastery power, 9+ with the staff! Your opponent is not going to like that. On a single dice it's possible to cast invocation on a 12.:eek: Fine so when you do fail to cast it magic phase over for that wizard but if you're sensible there are others to try and use up the rest.

LevDaddy
23-06-2010, 05:33
Lastly, use scenery! We used a lot and it had a big impact on the game, mostly in an entertaining way. Creepy forests that turned out not so important as they just reinforced the undeads fear but the arcane ruin (lets you roll more dice for channelling) was fun as was a chaos altar/ruin (not sure exactly what) that either made your characters better or killed them outright. Lost my battle standard on turn 1 to that thing.:shifty: It did make the game much more interesting though as charge lanes and lines of sight weren't so simple and we had to manoeuvre a bit more.

I'm glad you had a fun game. I'm loving the randomness. I'm still going to use my 7 or 8x3 GG with GW though ;)

A question about terrain. I saw the section on terrain and all the crazy rules that things could have - Do you just pick what is what when you are placing terrain in the pre-game? For instance, do you put down a ruin and say it's ruin x or y? Or is everything randomized like the forest?

Yrrdead
23-06-2010, 06:52
First I wanted to address some of shortleg's concerns. (feel free to correct me :))

Invo Spam - reduced but the rumor's were much worse than reality.
Steadfast - yeah it sucks for us but that just means our core will get cheaper for our next book. :rolleyes:
Horde - honestly I'm not worried about horde at all. I won't ever run a horde unit. (unless I somehow paint all the zombies I have laying about) And fighting a horde with a 5 wide deep undead unit is a bit of a laugh.
Shooting - well we haven't shot for a few editions now (5th?) so hopefully you are used to handling gunlines.
Initiative - yeah not the greatest but this is an issue that many armies have to deal with (non - elves).

Overall I think you'll see the basic vamp concept hasn't changed. The strengths of VC are still there. I've just been using a slightly more balanced list than my 7th ed. Some of the more OTT deathstar combo's are done imo due to the potential for mass casualties due to Warmachines and Magic.


Okay onto some other combo's I've been thinking about.
Screaming Banner + Aura of Dark Majesty. (too expensive?)
Vamp + FL + Lore of Beasts - (Cheapest Dragon ever?)
Vamp + FL + Wristbands - (Best Caster in the Game for the Points?)

Also for those of you that have been playing 8th. I've been running the above vamp solo because he's the one trying to get off big spells. Pretty sure that I'm done using caster lords (at least at the 2250/2500 lvl) .

What have you been doing with your main caster? Are you guys using caster lords?

Frgt/10
23-06-2010, 09:37
edit; nevermind, im am idiot

Ape
23-06-2010, 10:54
hi everyone,

after it took me a little time to read all this posts ;) i read a lot about using Necromancers for spaming ION in the 8th.

I did this just on the weekend playing my first game with VC in the 8th edition using 3 Necros at 2500 points. 55 points each without the limitation of 3 Heroes is cool.

In theory they work pretty good for casting ION: role 1 D6 +1 caster lvl means: 1,2 is autofail and roling a 3+ means u pass the spell :)

but when facing an enemy with a lvl 3 or 4 wizard they wont fail any dispell because of the +3/4 modifier ...
so the only thing u can do with necros casting ION is forcing him to waste his dices.
so in practise the necroes are not as strong as they seem to be... imo

duffybear1988
23-06-2010, 12:02
Well going by some of the missions, im considering fielding heaps of zombies and just speed bumping the enemy for the entire game :D

theSkullduggery1
23-06-2010, 14:10
but when facing an enemy with a lvl 3 or 4 wizard they wont fail any dispell because of the +3/4 modifier ...
so the only thing u can do with necros casting ION is forcing him to waste his dices.
so in practise the necroes are not as strong as they seem to be... imo

I think I remember reading in the rulebook that when dispelling a natural roll of 1 or 2 is also a fail to dispell. Also, if a wizard fails to dispell something that wizard can't dispell any other spells during that magic phase.

So throwing one dice from a lord to dispell is a pretty risky thing to do if there is a 1/3 chance that he wont be able to dispell anything else, especially if you still have scary spells yet to come.

Darkangeldentist
23-06-2010, 14:34
I'm glad you had a fun game. I'm loving the randomness. I'm still going to use my 7 or 8x3 GG with GW though ;)

A question about terrain. I saw the section on terrain and all the crazy rules that things could have - Do you just pick what is what when you are placing terrain in the pre-game? For instance, do you put down a ruin and say it's ruin x or y? Or is everything randomized like the forest?

We placed scenery and agreed what they counted as before the game. Forests you roll as soon as something enters it, the arcane and chaos ruins/altars are a bit more straight-forward. (I think some pieces have a specific table.) We were playing in-store so didn't get a full run-down of the terrain pieces. It definitely adds to the game though but if you don't fancy using special rules you can agree not to use them.

A further note on dispelling, since a failed dispel ends it for that particular wizard I really doubt people will risk using them for single dice dispels. Fluff one roll and that's it for his magic phase and the end to that very important bonus to your dispel rolls.

I think that combination of the 25% minimum core choices and the slight nerf to invocation spamming will make people less inclined to take small unit of ghouls and skeletons but much vampire armies will be much more likely to have far scarier movement. Vanhel's is a lot more scary now that a level 4 wizard is pretty much guarranteed to cast it on 2 dice and stopping it successfully with a highly level wizard is much more important if they want to keep dispelling.

Mandragola
24-06-2010, 00:57
One thing we might have to watch for a bit is that other people can take more special choices than before. Artillery tends to be special, and I think it's reasonable to expect to see a whole lot of cannon balls headed in the direction of our vamp lords.

I'm considering an etherial lord running with wraiths. Boost him to L4 and have him throw spells around, and maybe have some lesser guys with DA and lotd generating skellies. The lord and wraiths could also do a fair bit of harm for themselves, though you probably want something like a varghulf too.

Grave guard do look as good as ever, but to win it looks like we will have to use our core guys. I'm not sure how this would work, or even if it will work at all.

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 03:56
I think I remember reading in the rulebook that when dispelling a natural roll of 1 or 2 is also a fail to dispell. Also, if a wizard fails to dispell something that wizard can't dispell any other spells during that magic phase.

So throwing one dice from a lord to dispell is a pretty risky thing to do if there is a 1/3 chance that he wont be able to dispell anything else, especially if you still have scary spells yet to come.
If a natural 1 or 2 is a failure to dispel and prevents the wizard from further dispel attempts that phase, then things get a lot more interesting. A veritable battery of cheap lvl 1 casters might just exhaust an opponent's dispel pool (if he uses 2 dice to dispel) or negate his dispel bonus (if he risks rolling 1 die with his lvl 4 and gets a natural 1 or 2).

But unfortunately that would mean pouring even more points into characters. I've always found VC armies to be extremely small usually and relied on a robust magic phase to maintain their numbers. While we should still have a strong magic phase (especially with MotBA boosting our PD), its the increased number of losses that I'm worried about. While other units have steadfast, we still crumble as we've always did, and now with poor troops, step up and horde giving lots more casualties, we may be facing losses greater than we can replenish.

To circumvent this we would probably have to take larger starting blocks, but would also mean they are vying for points with all those characters we want to take..

Argh... the dilemma...

Tomalock
24-06-2010, 04:15
I dont believe that dispell has the same restrictions as casting (for 1s and 2s). I'll check tomorrow but I think I looked into that speficically over the last week and didn't find it to be the case.

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 04:29
Ghouls or skellies?

In 7th ed ghouls were the clear winner. In 8th, I still think that ghouls are better.
- WS 3 makes a big difference. As I mentioned in another thread, in battles of infantry blocks, a single pip in difference in Ws, S or T may mean a large difference in number of wounds especially when multiplied by all those attacks. Having infantry hit you on 4+ rather than 3+ means a lot. And if your opponent fails his fear test, he is hitting ghouls on 5+ rather than 4+ for skellies. Of course all is moot if you're using the helm, but the helm cant be everywhere at once..

- T4. See above, T4 mitigates a lot of incoming damage, especially when the 8th ed HW+S save is actually a nerf for attacks of str 4 and below (which is what most infantry blocks have).

- I3. May not seem like much, but striking first does help towards the end when units are depleted and striking first means reducing step-up attacks. Also, against low initiative opponents like orcs and saurus, I3 plus ASF from our corpse cart can be rather nasty..

- A2, poisoned. 'Nuff said.

Skellies have the ability for a free reform from a musician and are able to bring a magic banner (Screaming banner looks pretty good now). But still I don't think these are sufficient to outweigh all the benefits that ghouls have.

Ape
24-06-2010, 11:20
Problem is that skellis cant buy screaming banner itself because its to expansiv...

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 11:39
My bad.. I remembered the points wrongly.. But the rest of the points still stand. If anything it only made ghouls even better in comparison..

Ridarsin
24-06-2010, 16:41
Ghouls or skellies?

In 7th ed ghouls were the clear winner. In 8th, I still think that ghouls are better.
- WS 3 makes a big difference. As I mentioned in another thread, in battles of infantry blocks, a single pip in difference in Ws, S or T may mean a large difference in number of wounds especially when multiplied by all those attacks. Having infantry hit you on 4+ rather than 3+ means a lot. And if your opponent fails his fear test, he is hitting ghouls on 5+ rather than 4+ for skellies. Of course all is moot if you're using the helm, but the helm cant be everywhere at once..
- T4. See above, T4 mitigates a lot of incoming damage, especially when the 8th ed HW+S save is actually a nerf for attacks of str 4 and below (which is what most infantry blocks have).
- I3. May not seem like much, but striking first does help towards the end when units are depleted and striking first means reducing step-up attacks. Also, against low initiative opponents like orcs and saurus, I3 plus ASF from our corpse cart can be rather nasty..
- A2, poisoned. 'Nuff said.
Skellies have the ability for a free reform from a musician and are able to bring a magic banner (Screaming banner looks pretty good now). But still I don't think these are sufficient to outweigh all the benefits that ghouls have.

You have raised a great problem with skeletons, and until yesterday I would have fully agreed with you. I played a 2500 pt test game against my brothers WoC. I decided to bring along a big block of 40 skellies (5x8) and boy did they mop. I had a vampire w/ MotBA & Helm pumping up the skeletons with WS & VHD (from necromancer). The destroyed a unit of 7 khorne flail marauder horsemen and swung the grave guard (GW) against warriors back into my favor. I plan on running 2 blocks of 20 ghouls in addition to my skeletons.

The black coach is the #1 rare choice now. I realized that they always roll for pool dice, as distance doesn't matter for pool. By my brothers 2nd magic phase the coach was already level 5. Plus by sucking up power dice it helps your own magic defense.

Magic isn't a great as it once was, but it is still effective if you add in MotBA caddies, and necromancers. :D

Malorian
24-06-2010, 19:02
Skeletons are key because of their banners for missions.

The black coach might gear up fast but it's still just a chariot.

Yrrdead
24-06-2010, 21:36
Just to echo Malorian. You are pretty much forced to get a unit of skellies and/or zombies simply for the banners. Even with them my current army is only sitting at 5 pts at 2250 which seems low compared to other armies.

*5pts is referring to General and 3 banners. If you still have no idea what I'm talking about, it is one of the new basic scenarios.

Ridarsin , did you use spears or just hw+sh?

The_Bureaucrat
24-06-2010, 21:39
Problems with the balck coach is the dice it sucks up are very random. Theoretically it should be good but whenever you need those dice it always sucks them up and only seems to suck up my opponents dice when he has no wizards left.

Malorian
24-06-2010, 21:42
You can get past the banner thing with grave guard or knights, but I'd rather have the safety of having a couple of units that can go pop before I auto-lose.

Balerion
27-06-2010, 09:21
I wanted to get a post in here so I could track down the thread later, so here it is.

And just so that it isn't completely worthless, head over to WFB Rules with your VC expertise and help me figure something out: Do Corpse Carts get to use Thunderous Stomp? (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4768558#post4768558)

'Cause if they do a good unit just became even better.

Maoriboy007
27-06-2010, 20:32
Here's a couple of tips:

You'll always need a lord if you can afford it.
Most important upgrades (in order) are:
Extra Wizard Level
Dreadknight
Gilded Curiass
Ward save
Summon Power

Because of all the attacks RnF can send their way at all times, Heros need maximum protection or should avoid combat at all costs.

Undead don't really benefit from most of the new infantry rules due to low combat stats and crumbling rules, stick to 5 wide unless you think you can gain a real benefit from extra ranks.

VC are going to hate chaos and DE even more than befrore due to thier ability to inflict those nasty miscasts.

Black coach is a two edged sword but totally worth it now.

The new frenzy rules make blood knights worth considering.

The corpse cart is a complete nerf, leave it at home (I had two of them too!)

Don't feel guilty about taking the hard combo's. Due to all the bitching about them it looks like VC got the hardest nerf next to TKs in this edition so bring as much pain as possible because you'll need it.

Use your magic carefully, plan your magic phase. Those dice can disappear pretty quickly. Be aware of all the nasty things that can happen to Wizards now.

duffybear1988
27-06-2010, 22:17
Im considering a pirate themed VC army with dogs of war cannons/crossbowmen/duelists supporting my hordes of skeletons and zombies. Thanks to the removal of the silly slots system it opens up much more variability for Vampires

Marshal Torrick
27-06-2010, 22:51
Are DoW still a go in 8th edition?

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 01:51
Here's a couple of tips:

You'll always need a lord if you can afford it.
Most important upgrades (in order) are:
Extra Wizard Level
Dreadknight
Gilded Curiass
Ward save
Summon Power

Undead don't really benefit from most of the new infantry rules due to low combat stats and crumbling rules, stick to 5 wide unless you think you can gain a real benefit from extra ranks.

Black coach is a two edged sword but totally worth it now.

The new frenzy rules make blood knights worth considering.
When upgrading your vamp lord, I disagree with dread knight. Look Out Sir is just too important to not have. Dark acolyte is also very important as he will be facing against many lvl4 wizards in the opponent's army too. The skullstaff, previously very powerful, is now way too expensive with the new rules. Helm is still a must, as is some form of protection (Flayed hauberk maybe?).

Undead should stick to 5-wide generally, but I'm considering running horde formation with ghouls/GG. You need to win combats, and sticking to 5-wide will just result in you being ground down eventually. Horde+helm+drakenhoff maybe is still a pretty decent unit, though pricey.

Black coach, while better in 8th, is it good enough? It is a good tarpit in an army of tarpits, and does not hit particularly hard. I'll probably go with more troops or wights.

I'll probably leave my blood knights at home. TLOS, step up, strike by initiative, random charge ranges etc... At 55pts per wound I think they are too vulnerable. Similarly, I'm finding it harder and harder to justify bringing vamp heroes, too easy to kill for their points. The very max I will go is probably 1 vamp just to bring a backup summon power (in case the lord fails to cast) or to carry MotBA. Necros are looking very attractive in 8th.

Will anyone bring the wight king bsb with drakenhoff? Applying regen to a horde unit is huge, but the bsb is more easily killed now since we can't have him on a horse anymore. Thoughts?

Darkangeldentist
28-06-2010, 02:52
My belief about the coach is that it is easily good enough now if you don't wish to be completely reliant on magic. It will get annoying if it eats most of your own dice and is already on full bonuses but that is also the reason it's now very much worth it's points now. You are much more likely to have all those important buffs early in the game.

8th has also given it a bunch of other useful benefits. No instant death versus high strength attacks. Slightly less static combat resolution (no outnumber) and despite the greater number of attacks most will still struggle to hurt it thanks to the armour and ward save. It's a bit better at killing infantry thanks to the changes with hand weapon and shield. Impact hits will now kill lightly armoured infantry without a save (parry doesn't work against impact hits) which is a big bonus. Also the wraith wields his great weapon better now too.

I'm also of the opinion that although blood knights are more fragile now, especially against high initiative troops they much more viable for flanking manoeuvres than before. It's also a hell of a lot easier to raise them back. Adding the magic level to the casting roll means what ever you use to cast invocation it'll only fail on a 1 or a 2. With as many casters as vampires can easily field, single dice casting is not much of a risk.

The corspe cart is something I'm probably more inclined to look at now than before. Yes, casting it's bound spell is a pain and drags our magic phase a bit but the spell is that much more powerful now. Always strikes first for not just that turn but the one after it as well is incredibly powerful. Especially on vampires but all our units. Add in the weak but comically useful thunderstomp it benefits from as well and it's on the whole gotten a fair bit better. Balefire may not be quite as awesome as before but it's no less useful for helping you dispel enemy spells.

Miscasts initially worried me a lot but with the exception of infenal puppet I don't think it is quite as terrible for vampires as was feared. I really doubt we'll have our caster standing next to each other any more but most will only cause a single wound to the caster and probably kill those standing near to him. Collateral damage is hardly a worry for undead (we'll just bring them back) and wounds can be healed even more easily now than before. Each end of the table is very nasty for us. A 50% chance to just disappear is not nice and losing D3 magic levels is almost as disastrous but these are the extreme ends of the scale.

Balerion
28-06-2010, 03:57
Warning: the following post is a blatant Easter egg hunt

Does anything in the miscast table explicitly outline the damaging results as magical attacks? I mean, from a fluff standpoint they are obviously of a magical nature, but does the game actually define them as such? If not, I suppose there's a tricky RaW argument out there for Ethereal Vampires being immune to them.

I would NEVER dream of playing it that way myself, regardless of whether the rule is vague or not, but it seems like it might be a quirky little loophole for the hard-RaW crowd to take advantage of.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 05:29
No denying the coach got better in 8th, but is it good enough when we're already scrambling for points? After 25% core, and close to 40% or more in characters, should we spend the remaining points on bringing a coach or other things like wights or even blood knights? Especially when the coach's effectiveness is rather luck dependent, from impact hits to rolling on the table?

I still think it is a better tarpit than it is a hammer, and when your core are all tarpits and you need some hammer units, wights/wraiths/blood knights all seem to hit much harder than the coach.

As for corpse cart, it really is hit bad. ASF doesn't mean anything unless against depleted units or enemy with lower I (a rarity when you're undead..). I'll rather spend the points on a necro with vanhels. True, the spell is harder to cast, but it gives ASF and re-rolls, and the necro also performs the role of a backup caster/channeller.

As for being easier to raise back blood knights, I respectively disagree. Even if we're not talking about 7th ed skullstaff vamp lord (where anything but 1 or 2 is a success in raising the knights), a failed roll just mean we pick up another die and roll again. In 8th ed, vamp lords are probably restricted to 2-dice invocs just to prevent the failed roll and not being able to cast again. Adding your magic level is also equally balanced by your opponent adding his magic level to the dispel roll. And also consider the possibility of you only having a few PD above your opponent's DD. All in all, it is more difficult now to raise our troops in 8th.

I think a lot of people still think that VC can still easily raise back our troops when we want to. But considering
- changes to magic (less die advantage, failure to cast again after a botched roll nerfing single-die invocs)
- increased casualties from conbat
- the main advantage of undead staying in place despite losing combat is now lost when other armies can have stubborn
All these may likely mean that we will lose a lot more casualties than in 7th ed with less ability to raise them back. While our raising ability in 7th ed sometimes was quite ridiculous, will these resultant nerfs simply bring our power level more back in line, or swing to the other extreme making raising insufficient to stem loses? Guess we shall have to wait and see..

Balerion
28-06-2010, 05:50
I think you're doing the Black Coach a great injustice in your review.

Not everything is a pure tarpit or a hammer. The BC is a highly survivable unit that hits reasonably hard (usually harder than a Varghulf does). It gets even deadlier and more durable when it sucks up PD, and it provides a form of magic defense when it eats dice in your opponent's phase. It's also a Vampire unit that can push forward and stay alive, and allow your units to march in the mid-late turns.

And you get all that for 200 points, which is a bargain. Are you playing 1000 point games or something?

Lastly, I need to point out that you don't seem to have a proper understanding of how the Evocation of Death rule works. You don't roll on the table; each power dice earns you one of the upgrades, in the order that they are listed.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 06:14
Should have clarified myself, I meant rolling a 6 in the first place to get the effects on the table.

While the coach hits harder on the charge, on subsequent rounds it's offensive power is pretty poor. Wights/wraiths/blood knights still retain most of their fighting ability after round 1, which is going to be very very important for those wars of attrition.

As I said, I never denied that the coach is nice, but for me it won't be given priority for points because I need hammer units in the army. This is my key point. With 25% mandatory in core, I have enough tarpits. I need hammers to win combats, or my tarpits will just eventually crumble away. And in searching for a hammer, there are other preferred choices than a coach. The coach is still very nice, but NOT in the role I need its points for.

I don't play 1000point games. In fact I'll be more likely to bring the coach in smaller games where its versatility is an advantage. In larger games with larger units i.e. more bodies to chew through, I need a consistent hammer.

Balerion
28-06-2010, 06:43
I probably wouldn't make it my priority either... but aren't you going to need more than one unit that can actually kill stuff?

Blood Knights or Wraiths would be my first choice as well, but I find they're too expensive to field in tandem, and therefore usually go with the more economic BC/Varghulf as my second rare choice.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 07:18
Well, lately I'm seriously tempted by a deathstar unit of GW-toting GG. Should be able to chew through anything thrown at them.

Doesn't give me much points left for anything else after that.. :p

Nathangonmad
28-06-2010, 09:57
Well, lately I'm seriously tempted by a deathstar unit of GW-toting GG. Should be able to chew through anything thrown at them.

Doesn't give me much points left for anything else after that.. :p

I've been doin this since 7th ed vamps came out. Very very effective.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 12:09
I've always played a maximum of 20 GG in 7th ed. Ya they rocked then.

In 8th, how big will your GG units be, if you take any? 20 seems a little small now with everyone using larger blocks.. 30 GG then?

anthioram
28-06-2010, 12:28
When upgrading your vamp lord, I disagree with dread knight. Look Out Sir is just too important to not have. Dark acolyte is also very important as he will be facing against many lvl4 wizards in the opponent's army too. The skullstaff, previously very powerful, is now way too expensive with the new rules. Helm is still a must, as is some form of protection (Flayed hauberk maybe?).

I don't know about dark acolyte, with the changes in magic i think the vamp lord should go combat heavy and then add support heroes for magic.

I'm trying a vamp with red fury, eternal hatred,Heavy armour and shield, +3attacks sword and +4sp/stupidity against my friends empire tomorrow.
But for more generic vamp I'm keeping my 7th set up, with red fury, hatred, summon power, +1S sword, flayed hauberk, and the new 4+sp common item. Supported by a vampire with MotBA and the helm, some necro and a wight king bsb.

Alternatively i was thinking of taking again red fury and give him the death lore to snipe characters (bsb's specially), would you use anby other lore??

Darkangeldentist
28-06-2010, 15:23
The new magic lores I'm looking at most for my vampires are beasts and light. (Pretty close to last edition really.) Death is good for character sniping but beasts in particular feels really useful for vampires. Stat increases from spells? Yes please. Our heroes become a lot harder to hurt when you can buff them up to T7-8 or give them +3 Strength and attacks. The "I'm a monster" spell at the end of the list is cool too but it's the augmenting spells I think are going to prove the most useful. (Can you see Count Manfred with 7 attacks and strength 8? Suddenly my roll for the winds of magic hardly matters.:p)

Although Grave guard are pretty capable in combat I confess that to me they are just a better tarpit. They take the punchs and dish it back out. Out of the hammer units available to Vampires, grave guard chuck out only modest damage, they really want something to improve their chances to hit. I like them but they still won't be my first choice for a hammer unit.

My view about raising blood knights is specific to elite undead units. Skull staff is no longer required to allow us successfully casting of invocation on such units and all our spell casters will. Although raising in general has become slightly more difficult as we cannot guarrantee huge dice superiority in the magic phase anymore (although it's still easy to have plenty more than your opponent) it doesn't change the fact that casting the spells is easier. So qualitative raising is now more important than simply spamming it. Units like blood knights, grave guard and wraiths all have become more attractive units to me because they can deal out good damage and I can heal them back to effective numbers with only a couple of castings. It's quite easy to lose ranks of skeletons and ghouls, making numerous successful castings of invocation necessary just to maintain the numbers with no real guarrantee it will win the combat or secure victory.

Finn
28-06-2010, 20:47
My view about raising blood knights is specific to elite undead units. Skull staff is no longer required to allow us successfully casting of invocation on such units and all our spell casters will. Although raising in general has become slightly more difficult as we cannot guarrantee huge dice superiority in the magic phase anymore (although it's still easy to have plenty more than your opponent) it doesn't change the fact that casting the spells is easier. So qualitative raising is now more important than simply spamming it. Units like blood knights, grave guard and wraiths all have become more attractive units to me because they can deal out good damage and I can heal them back to effective numbers with only a couple of castings. It's quite easy to lose ranks of skeletons and ghouls, making numerous successful castings of invocation necessary just to maintain the numbers with no real guarrantee it will win the combat or secure victory.

I agree with this, I've found myself moving towards using Skeletons/Zombies as expendable tools - well, they've always been expendable but I've always tried to raise more. Now I spend my Invokes on healing the Varghulf or raising more Grave Guard.

And I still love Cairn Wraiths with a Banshee. Them and Spirit Hosts - being immune to non-magical attacks serves two purposes: either your opponent uses their magic on them, sparing your larger units, or they ignore them and you can do some damage.

As for lores, I'm a huge fan of Wind of Undeath and Summon Undead Horde with the new rules (if my dice wouldn't fail me on the crucial wounding rolls...), and I've found myself drawn towards Lore of Death when using Forbidden Lore as I like Soulblight's utility and the lore attribute.

Dark Aly
28-06-2010, 23:37
i've been thinking- what do you guys think of this hammer (and very expensive, almost deathstar) idea?
Vampire lord=455
extra level, MotBA, red fury, blood drinker, flayed hauberk, crown of the damned
Wight King= 110
battle standard, dragon helm (+1 save and resistance to fire)
19 GG= 312
GW, FC, banner of the barrows
total 877

the idea is set the grave guard in 3x7 formation. MotBA is there to replace any casulties from shooting and red fury + blood drinker will mean that they should win any combat by war attrition. the lord with a 2+ save and then 4+ should be able to survive anything and also re-rolls stupidity on Ld 10 due to battle standard. maybe more armour and possibly sword of kings on the wight would help challenges. any thoughts?

Marshal Torrick
29-06-2010, 00:32
I'm thinking using Summon Undead Horde pretty much every turn with a level 3 lord with the Crimson Gem. Sacrifice a wound, use two from the pool, cast the spell and then heal back the wound you just took and use the rest to raise skellies or whateve else needs doing.

I'm planning on having two MotBA caddies for an average of 11 dice per phase. 3 or so get sucked up by my two(at 3000pts) Black Coaches, Leaving 8. Use 2 for Curse of Years, 3 for Winds of Undeath, then 2 or three with one from the Gem to cast Summon Undead Horde. Lord will be caddied in with Drakenhoff Banner Grave Guard to minimize the effects of a dangerous miscast.

Yrrdead
29-06-2010, 00:39
My problem with deathstars at the moment is that 8th ed seems much more prohibitive towards fielding them. The sheer devastation possible to a unit due to shooting and/or magic made me scrap my deathstars.

In regards to your specific unit, a large block of troops will hold you in place long enough for you to get hit in the flank(s). Though realistically you will most likely get hit with war machines/ IF #6 spell (pick the lore). Even two rounds of that is going to get pretty nasty. While resilient you aren't rocking Drakenhoff or Blood Keep on your BSB for survivability. Plus consider some of the rather puissant buff spells that are out there. Many of these can turn a 40 man swordsman unit into something that is going to stick around for awhile.

Anyhoo if you play a few games with it let us know how it goes.

Ridarsin
29-06-2010, 06:30
Just to echo Malorian. You are pretty much forced to get a unit of skellies and/or zombies simply for the banners. Even with them my current army is only sitting at 5 pts at 2250 which seems low compared to other armies.

*5pts is referring to General and 3 banners. If you still have no idea what I'm talking about, it is one of the new basic scenarios.

Ridarsin , did you use spears or just hw+sh?

I used hw+sh as I like them the best. The also seem to do pretty well against my DElf friend as they are only T3. Also remember to take those BSBs for the re-roll-able stupidity tests from the Crown. I'm really impressed with how well this list has fared against WoC and DE. My DE friend took 2 blocks of 10 rxbs with and additional block of 29 (15x2) w/ a re-roll misses sorceress. He blasted one of my ghouls on the second turn. 1-1 against DE and 1-0 WoC.

List 2500 pts:
Vampire Lord: level 2
Infinite Hatred, Red Fury, Walking Death, Sword of Might, Flayed Hauberk, Crown of the Damned, Black Periapt
Vampire:
MotBA, Helm of Commandment
Wight King:
BSB - Banner of the Burrows, Great Weapon
Vampire:
Infinite Hatred, Avatar of Death (2 1-handed), Dispel Scroll, Nightshroud
Necromancer:
Extra Spell (Invo & VHDM), Power Stone

Core:
Skeleton Warriors x40 FC - Endless Nightmare
Crypt Ghouls x25
Crypt Ghouls x25
Dire Wolves x5
Dire Wolves x5

Special:
Grave Guard x 17 (6x3 w/ WK) FC - Screaming Banner

Rare:
Black Coach
Varghulf (sweet D3 stomps)

NitrosOkay
29-06-2010, 07:20
The new magic lores I'm looking at most for my vampires are beasts and light.

Forbidden Lore specifically says you cannot take the Lore of Light I thought?

Edit: I misread!

librisrouge
30-06-2010, 02:40
They can't take Lore of LIFE (fitting isn't it.)

Usopreme
30-06-2010, 05:06
Have people seen the list of new items that leaked? Some of them are pretty crazy, watch out for your vamp lord being turned into a frog.

Scythe
30-06-2010, 07:31
Have people seen the list of new items that leaked? Some of them are pretty crazy, watch out for your vamp lord being turned into a frog.

The frog scroll is a mayor reason to get the magic level upgrades, though bad things happen from time to time. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this plays out.

Remember the items work both ways, vampires do benefit from them as well. A Lord with Blade of Leaping Gold (+3 attacks), Red Fury and Infinite Hatred cuts through ranked infantry like a knife through butter, and should rank in 9-10 kills vs T3. Throw in a potion of strength and you can also cut down any cavalry which might charge you, although you have not enough pts left for a good defensive item that way.

It is interesting to see that the option for a supporting bunker magic lord is not as trivial anymore. On one hand, magic support is still very usefull, and the helm remains as good as it has ever been. On the other hand, VCs desperately need true killing power, and tooling your lord as a supportive character robs you of a potential very dangerous character up close. It should be interesting to see what Lords people will start running.

Malorian
30-06-2010, 13:14
Have people seen the list of new items that leaked? Some of them are pretty crazy, watch out for your vamp lord being turned into a frog.

All casters will have to worry about that and it's the reason you'll need to have a secondary caster (or more).

For VC I would have regular vampires to IoN and save the vampire lord for bigger spells. Then if they want to use the frog scroll you would have already gotten off one major spell and there is only a 50% chance it will be in effect your following turn.

Darkangeldentist
30-06-2010, 13:54
After another game of 8th, this time using a black coach, several vampires and a horde block of ghouls I've come to a few more conclusions. Forbidden lore is amazing, some of the new spells are just down right wrong as most of them last till your next magic phase. If you cast it you've got it for two rounds of combat.

The black coach is going to fly after turn 2, almost always. It devastates the magic phase so I think it's now a matter of how much you want to do in your magic phase. If you're mostly focused on having a few low level casters to raise stuff or cast vanhels then the coach will give you some great magic defence but shouldn't impact too badly on your chances. If you want to get more than a couple of big spells off a turn then don't take it. Too often it will suck up 2 or more dice and if you rolled low for the winds of magic you won't have the dice left. All in all it's still situational as a choice but I will definitely be taking it in smaller games. It's awesome when your opponent only has one or two casters.

Huge hordes of ghouls are a bit hit and miss. You get hideous numbers of attacks, quite terrifying in fact (41 poisoned attacks) but it does depend on how many can get into base contact. Also elite foes will cut you down so quickly the horde won't last long. Mine ended up facing a pretty badly beat up unit of frenzied chaos warriors. The ghouls killed the hero and on average 5-6 warriors but they culled 8-10 ghouls each round. It was ugly.

Again the Varghulf was enjoyably hilarious. Thunderstomp makes it just so much better against infantry.

This game was also interesting for the miscasts. I got 2 irresistable force spells off and neither killed my vampires. Killed quite a lot of ghouls as collateral damage but the vampires survived fine. The new miscast take hurts but not all that badly. Other races will dislike it more as the reliable wound loss and casualties hurt living races a lot more. (Although lore of life now gives them a chance to get people back!:confused:)

LevDaddy
30-06-2010, 18:20
Quick Q - Can you ward/regen save miscast wounds?

NecroNurgle
30-06-2010, 19:00
Again the Varghulf was enjoyably hilarious. Thunderstomp makes it just so much better against infantry.


I'm curious as to how you're employing the Vargulf, it seems like it took a nerfing in the new rules with infantry being pretty much allowed to always strike back in multiple ranks. I mean, to win combat the Vargulf has to deal 4 wounds, (3 ranks, standard, and musician to break ties.) assuming he gets the charge, and take no wounds from at least 8 attacks back. Is that consistently happening in your games?

Ridarsin
30-06-2010, 19:39
I'm curious as to how you're employing the Vargulf, it seems like it took a nerfing in the new rules with infantry being pretty much allowed to always strike back in multiple ranks. I mean, to win combat the Vargulf has to deal 4 wounds, (3 ranks, standard, and musician to break ties.) assuming he gets the charge, and take no wounds from at least 8 attacks back. Is that consistently happening in your games?

The Varghulf also has D3 S5 stomp attacks that strike last. The unit that the Varghulf charged also has to take terror tests each round of combat and if they fail they are hitting on 5's w/ only 1 possible attack per model. Plus he also now gets flank and rear bonuses (right?), but doesn't negate ranks.

fall3nang3l
30-06-2010, 19:43
I never ever ever use my vargulf solo on a block of infantry, its suicide.

Send it on the flank to deal with annoying postoliers/warmachines/gunners or as a support unit to deal more wounds with a block of GG or skeletons/ghouls

@ Ridarsin
They arent reduced to 1 attack if they fail fear/terror

Ridarsin
30-06-2010, 19:55
Thanks for the clearification fallenangel.

artisturn
30-06-2010, 20:24
I'm thinking using Summon Undead Horde pretty much every turn with a level 3 lord with the Crimson Gem. Sacrifice a wound, use two from the pool, cast the spell and then heal back the wound you just took and use the rest to raise skellies or whateve else needs doing.



I have been thinking something similar, that just regular ION might not be enough to recoup our losses so the healing aspect of Raise zombie Horde will be the way to go.

Only Draw back to the Crimson Gem is if the spell is dispelled you still take the hit for the wound.

mrtspence
30-06-2010, 21:58
My brother has been running 90 Zombies in his latest games (3 units of 30). He keeps them 5 across and 6 deep. Uses them to engage a unit and prevent them from getting Steadfast so that he can hammer them in the flank with something else. Has been having excellent results.

He also runs 40 Ghouls in the horde formation. He has Summon Ghouls on one of his vamps, so he tends not to lose that last rank to shooting (really becomes a 44-Ghoul unit by the time they make combat). They have been really tearing stuff up in a big way (30 Poisoned attacks is nothing to laugh at).

The Black Coach is insanely enraging. With the new rules for MR granting an improved ward save to magic (its only real weakness) it basically cruises around (or flies around, by the second or third turn :P) and smashes into the flanks of stuff trying to kill a mob of zombies being resurrected by a Vamp with the Scepter De Noirat. It is majorly gross.

Varghulf is pure pain. It is tough enough to survive its low I score, and the Thunderstomp at the end means it hits almost as hard as the 7th ed Stegadon did. It basically runs around gobbling up characters in little bunkers, characters on their own, Warmachines, archers, skirmishers, cavalry, and other nasties like itself--people were worried about it losing its potency with all the ranked infantry, but the truth of the matter is that it still excels in combat and people still run valuable targets outside of blocks of infantry. Once it's done eating up vulnerable targets, it careens into the rear of a block of infantry already fighting something and does some serious damage.

He also runs a Vamp with Avatar of Death, Blood Rage, Dreadlance, and Crown of the Damned on top of an Abyssal Terror (all the benefits of a dragon that can be taken in 2000 point games). That thing is freaking fierce. It actually broke and ran down a unit of 25 DE spearmen on the charge--the vamp killed like 7 or 8 of them and the mount killed 2 or 3. The unit did no wounds back, only got +2 for its ranks, and +1 for its banner, and ended up taking a break test at -8 (10 kills and the charge bonus). The charge bonus and the loss of outnumbering actually means that monsters and such can still win combats if they can get a few kills and only take one or less wounds back--plus the rank bonus is calculated after you have sliced it down by one or two.

He was able to consistently spam Invocation and Corpsecarts made his GG with greatweapons almost strike first (they just go at I, which is kinda bad, but its better than auto last!).

Speaking of GG with greatweapons, he runs 20 with a wight BSB with the Drakenhof, and it can actually generate some serious kills with 10 attacks. Really nasty. It just chews units up.

fall3nang3l
30-06-2010, 22:49
I was actually just thinking and came upon a question of: How will wraiths work in 8th?

I didnt pay too close attention to the skirmishes in the book.
I do know that skirmishers have a looseish formation. 1" gap between each model. but, when they charge/get charged do they have to remain in the same number of ranks and files and eliminate the 1" gap?

aka. if i run 7 wraiths. I have to run them all in a horizontal line with 1" between them the entire game in order for all 7 to be in base to base in close combat? cause thats a lot of frontage and could leave a huge gap in my battle line unless they're used as a screening unit.

If this is true, wraiths have become a lot less mobile and therefore useful

@ Ridarsin
np glad i could help :D

Darkangeldentist
30-06-2010, 23:07
The main change for the varghulf is thunder stomp. I really need a decent chance to read the book properly as there are a mass of details I need to check up on. Basically though the varghulf is tough enough to take the attacks of most basic infantry units. S3 needs 6's to wound and will have had to hit me first anyway. Second, hand weapon and shield gives a slightly worse save, still the same as before against the varghulf's regular attacks but parry doesn't work against impact hits (which stomp is) so those go straight through.

Ranks are also (I believe) counted after combat has been fought so there's a good chance their rank bonus won't be quite so high and the out number bonus is also gone. So the varghulf only has to deal with a static combat res of 4.

Since he now gets extra attacks against infantry (which hit automatically) he is very likely to do enough wounds to win combat. With a bit of luck on regeneration and/or invocation the varghulf now can take a large block of infantry on and fesat on it till there's no one left.

Back to the subject of forbidden lore. One great and highly appealling one to me is the last spell for lore of shadow. The target unit uses it's leadership as it's strength value. Now I know people have already thought of using this with ghouls but I am thinking how fun it would be on a corpse cart. Use the crown if you need the buff to hit but the idea of a S7 corpse cart with 2D6 attacks plus Thunderstomp is just hilarious to me. More so if it's got undeathly vigour up.:D

fall3nang3l
30-06-2010, 23:31
Anyway. Im playing a 3k points game on friday and heres what im thinking

Vampire lord - 380 (general)
forbidden lore
lord of dead
terror (forget the name)
flayed hauberk
carstein ring

now before i get flamed about the ring. my lord has died very frequently in the last couple of games always to bad luck so, i would like to actually finish a game where my army doesnt start crumbling. I'm going to test it out.

Vampire lord - 330
forbidden lore
dark acolyte
avatar of death
crown of the damned

vamp - 185
motba
helm of command

wight king - 235
BSB - Drakenhof banner
great weapon

necromancer - 95
extra spell (Invo&Danse)
dispel scroll

Troops - 750

skeletons (35) - 310
Full Command
banner of hellfire

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

Grave Guard (30) - 465
FC
Great Weapons
Banner of Barrows (or the screaming banner, havent decided yet)
*Horde

Black Coach

Vargulf

Vargulf
_______
2990

Modaavi was right. Fixed

Modaavi
30-06-2010, 23:44
Anyway. Im playing a 3k points game on friday and heres what im thinking

Vampire lord - 380 (general)
forbidden lore
lord of dead
terror (forget the name)
flayed hauberk
carstein ring

now before i get flamed about the ring. my lord has died very frequently in the last couple of games always to bad luck so, i would like to actually finish a game where my army doesnt start crumbling. I'm going to test it out.

Vampire lord - 330
forbidden lore
dark acolyte
avatar of death
crown of the damned

vamp - 185
motba
helm of command

wight king - 235
BSB - Drakenhof banner
great weapon

necromancer - 95
extra spell (Invo&Danse)
dispel scroll

Troops - 700

skeletons (30) - 260
Full Command

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

Grave Guard (35) - 530
FC
Great Weapons
Banner of Barrows (or the screaming banner, havent decided yet)
*Horde

Black Coach

Vargulf

Vargulf
_______
3005

Is this list for 8th ed? If so, you do not have the minimum core requirement met. 750 is needed for a 3k list.

Glabro
30-06-2010, 23:57
Ghouls, with the fear change, more counterattacks (WS 3 and T4 being helpful there) and an extra rank of poisoned attacks - all these speak for the ghouls. Perhaps you'll lose the standard mission every time, but hey...can't win 'em all.

Better still might be ranked units of dire wolves. They are cheap enough to go with 3 or 4 ranks, and they can control the battlefield with their fast cavalry rule and scouting. Your heavy hitters (wights, namely) could rely on support whenever they want it.

Finn
01-07-2010, 02:06
My brother has been running 90 Zombies in his latest games (3 units of 30). He keeps them 5 across and 6 deep. Uses them to engage a unit and prevent them from getting Steadfast so that he can hammer them in the flank with something else. Has been having excellent results.
That's an awesome idea, I'm totally stealing it.


He also runs a Vamp with Avatar of Death, Blood Rage, Dreadlance, and Crown of the Damned on top of an Abyssal Terror (all the benefits of a dragon that can be taken in 2000 point games). That thing is freaking fierce.
I may look into using mine again, I kinda stopped with the latest codex.


If this is true, wraiths have become a lot less mobile and therefore useful
I still think Wraiths are absolutely awesome. I can't see why you'd want to run them 7 across, and does everybody just overlook the Banshee upgrade? ;)


The Varghulf also has D3 S5 stomp attacks that strike last. The unit that the Varghulf charged also has to take terror tests each round of combat and if they fail they are hitting on 5's w/ only 1 possible attack per model. Plus he also now gets flank and rear bonuses (right?), but doesn't negate ranks.
Pretty sure it's D6. Granted, I've been playing games with the store's advance order copy so I can't go reference it at the moment, but I'm 90% sure it's D6. With his Hatred, he's pretty awesome. I actually used him to murder some Bretonnian Knights solo, what with their T3 and all (they were only 6-strong, I guess I should say).

Another bonus of the Varghulf that may become a lot more relevant is that other units within 6" of him can march, as he has the Vampire special rule. If you're starting to take Necromancers (or you're a Wight King fan, like me) this can help make sure you get your marches.

And if you want to make him extra-murderous, you can always cast Soulblight on his target or the Lore of Beasts signature spell on him.

RE: Dire Wolves. With the scouting thing, I really think I need to pick up some more and either run one unit of 15 or two units of 10/5. We'll see.

Ridarsin
01-07-2010, 06:46
Anyway. Im playing a 3k points game on friday and heres what im thinking

Vampire lord - 380 (general)
forbidden lore
lord of dead
terror (forget the name)
flayed hauberk
carstein ring

now before i get flamed about the ring. my lord has died very frequently in the last couple of games always to bad luck so, i would like to actually finish a game where my army doesnt start crumbling. I'm going to test it out.

Vampire lord - 330
forbidden lore
dark acolyte
avatar of death
crown of the damned

vamp - 185
motba
helm of command

wight king - 235
BSB - Drakenhof banner
great weapon

necromancer - 95
extra spell (Invo&Danse)
dispel scroll

Troops - 750

skeletons (35) - 310
Full Command
banner of hellfire

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

skeletons (20) - 220
FC

Grave Guard (30) - 465
FC
Great Weapons
Banner of Barrows (or the screaming banner, havent decided yet)
*Horde

Black Coach

Vargulf

Vargulf
_______
2990

Modaavi was right. Fixed

Your Helm vampire is 5 points too much. Your Lords don't seem to do anything exceptional. I would recommend that you make each one great in either combat or magic. Skeletons x20 w/ FC are only 180 points. Your paying a lot of extra points for not a lot of extra attacks with the Grave Guard. No one in their right mind would want to toe to toe horde against them and the will get charged by 5x6+ ranked cheap troops if your not carefull (or shot to death).

These would be my recommendations:

Vampire Lord (General) -380
Walking Death, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred
Sword of Might, Flayed Hauberk, Crown of Damned

Vampire Lord -335
Extra Level, Dark Acolyte, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead

Crypt Ghouls x20 -160 (you need more points in core)

Grave Guard x23 6x4 -351
GW, FC -Banner of the Burrows

This leaves you with 44 points to spend on more skeletons/ghouls troops, Hero or Lord equipment, or Dire Wolves (pressure).

Scythe
01-07-2010, 06:59
He also runs a Vamp with Avatar of Death, Blood Rage, Dreadlance, and Crown of the Damned on top of an Abyssal Terror (all the benefits of a dragon that can be taken in 2000 point games). That thing is freaking fierce. It actually broke and ran down a unit of 25 DE spearmen on the charge--the vamp killed like 7 or 8 of them and the mount killed 2 or 3. The unit did no wounds back, only got +2 for its ranks, and +1 for its banner, and ended up taking a break test at -8 (10 kills and the charge bonus). The charge bonus and the loss of outnumbering actually means that monsters and such can still win combats if they can get a few kills and only take one or less wounds back--plus the rank bonus is calculated after you have sliced it down by one or two.

That doesn't sound right. The spearelves should have been testing on stubborn Ld due to steadfast...

Ape
01-07-2010, 09:58
That doesn't sound right. The spearelves should have been testing on stubborn Ld due to steadfast...

thats the reason why the dreadlance Vamp isnt as effectiv as it was...
still he will eat normal infantery, but because they dont run after the first cc round he will stuck there for another 1 or 2 combatrounds.. this makes him less mobil and effektiv. although its not that bad if he stucks in CC during your opponents round :)

Glabro
01-07-2010, 11:01
The zombie anvil is a decent idea.

However, don't units lose steadfast if they're flanked by a unit with two ranks?

Finn
01-07-2010, 11:11
It doesn't, flanking with 2+ ranks simply removes your enemy's rank bonus. Steadfast remains.

Scythe
01-07-2010, 14:17
The zombie anvil is a decent idea.


It will be difficult to compensate for the large amount of kills the enemy will get against the zombies though.

fall3nang3l
01-07-2010, 16:30
Your Helm vampire is 5 points too much. Your Lords don't seem to do anything exceptional. I would recommend that you make each one great in either combat or magic. Skeletons x20 w/ FC are only 180 points. Your paying a lot of extra points for not a lot of extra attacks with the Grave Guard. No one in their right mind would want to toe to toe horde against them and the will get charged by 5x6+ ranked cheap troops if your not carefull (or shot to death).

These would be my recommendations:

Vampire Lord (General) -380
Walking Death, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred
Sword of Might, Flayed Hauberk, Crown of Damned

Vampire Lord -335
Extra Level, Dark Acolyte, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead

Crypt Ghouls x20 -160 (you need more points in core)

Grave Guard x23 6x4 -351
GW, FC -Banner of the Burrows

This leaves you with 44 points to spend on more skeletons/ghouls troops, Hero or Lord equipment, or Dire Wolves (pressure).

You're completely right. I was at work and didnt have the book on me and I clearly made a lot of mistakes on points. It has never felt right to run a vampire without armor but I'll give it a shot. Good idea about the GG but I have wanted to try out a horde with them for some time. Bear in mind this is only my 2nd game in 8th so I'm still testing out interesting (maybe not so sensible) loadouts but it was all great advice


How do you kill an empire steam tank?

Glabro
01-07-2010, 21:41
It will be difficult to compensate for the large amount of kills the enemy will get against the zombies though.

Indeed, that is why I am hesitant. More and more it looks to me like Dire Wolves would be a good choice for core 25%. You can hunt down anything that is vulnerable easily and flank easily enough. 8 point M9 fast cavalry that can't be panicked is good.

Balerion
01-07-2010, 22:02
For the last time,

Dire Wolves/Bat Swarms/Corpse Carts do not fulfill any Core requirements.

For our dastardly undead purposes the rule might as well read "Minimum 25% Zombies/Skeletons/Ghouls" because that is how it works out.

The rulebook is absolutely explicit about this being the way of things, and the errata will not change it. Abandon all hope of that.

HeroFox
01-07-2010, 22:15
Anyone else plan on doing Blades of Dueling and Crown of Command on a Vamp Lord that'll give a unit WS10?

Balerion
01-07-2010, 23:43
Anyone else plan on doing Blades of Dueling and Crown of Command on a Vamp Lord that'll give a unit WS10?
Interesting idea, but that's 65 points of equipment before the Vampire even has any protective gear, and you'll need to keep him out of combat for the Helm to kick in. If something nasty catches your Lord he'll be defenceless, and your army will soon be turning to dust.

Marlow
02-07-2010, 00:42
Interesting idea, but that's 65 points of equipment before the Vampire even has any protective gear, and you'll need to keep him out of combat for the Helm to kick in. If something nasty catches your Lord he'll be defenceless, and your army will soon be turning to dust.Well WS 10 makes him hard to hit in combat and the other 35 points can be used to give him a 5+ Ward save.

However while passing on WS 10 is a nice combination, just giving WS 7 should be enough for most units. Fear will also be making many Enemy WS 1 so those extra three points are not going to help a lot.

Major_Blackhart
02-07-2010, 04:35
Was thinking about a close combat oriented lord, and I honestly find myself having a hard time deciding between Ogreblade (+2 Strength) and Sword of Quarrel (+2 attacks). Unless you know what kind of army you're going up against, it's tough to figure it out really. The S7 is best against more elite infantry armies, like Chaos warriors, and armies with models that have high toughness. Overall, it's a great can-opener and very good against knights. But the 6 base attacks at the same time is just as nasty, giving you a possible (max) 14 attacks. unlikely to get that though. So, my combat vampire is:

Cadaverous Cuirass (heavy armor, immune to KB, Poison)
Talisman of Preservation (+4 Ward Save)
Ogreblade/Sword of Quarrel (+2 Strength or +2 attacks, based on which army)

Eternal hatred, Red Fury (Of course)

Overall points cost should be 380. But that's not counting a mount of some sort, though I'd probably stick him in a unit of GG.
Not bad for a 2500 point game, and in a 3000 point game, there's enough left over for more, especially a caster lord.

Scythe
02-07-2010, 06:52
However while passing on WS 10 is a nice combination, just giving WS 7 should be enough for most units. Fear will also be making many Enemy WS 1 so those extra three points are not going to help a lot.

WS 10 instead of 7 would help troops against WS4 opponents (who hit on 5s) and WS10 opponents (who hit on 4s), while giving offensive benefits against WS7-9 (who will be hit on 3s). To be honest, that is still a rather limited group, as only WS4 will be commonly encountered. I don't think it will be the optimal way to use your lord. If you could use the combo on a hero level vampire, it would have been more interesting imho.

What is interesting though is casting the WS10 light spell on the crown character, effectively extending the spell from a single target to units within range.


Was thinking about a close combat oriented lord, and I honestly find myself having a hard time deciding between Ogreblade (+2 Strength) and Sword of Quarrel (+2 attacks). Unless you know what kind of army you're going up against, it's tough to figure it out really. The S7 is best against more elite infantry armies, like Chaos warriors, and armies with models that have high toughness. Overall, it's a great can-opener and very good against knights. But the 6 base attacks at the same time is just as nasty, giving you a possible (max) 14 attacks. unlikely to get that though. So, my combat vampire is:

Cadaverous Cuirass (heavy armor, immune to KB, Poison)
Talisman of Preservation (+4 Ward Save)
Ogreblade/Sword of Quarrel (+2 Strength or +2 attacks, based on which army)

Eternal hatred, Red Fury (Of course)

Overall points cost should be 380. But that's not counting a mount of some sort, though I'd probably stick him in a unit of GG.
Not bad for a 2500 point game, and in a 3000 point game, there's enough left over for more, especially a caster lord.

A difficult tradeoff indeed. Keep in mind that you could always take the middle road and get a potion of strenght to complement your attack boosting sword (although to fit the magic item limit, you could only take the +1 attack variant). Still, it gives you that usefull S8 on the turn those nasty chaos knights charge you, enabeling you to cut them down with ease.

One day I will use that vampire with +3 attacks, potion of strenght, fury and hatred. He won't be having much defensive wise besides an armour save, but with 7 S8 attacks, rerolls to hit and additional attacks for each wound, he should cause some unbelievable carnage before he goes down, which should be fun enough on its own. Cutting down a Dragon or Stegadon in a single combat phase is always worth a good chuckle.

Balerion
02-07-2010, 09:44
Just discovered another lump we're taking this edition, my rotting lovelies:

We are no longer allowed to take Ward or Regeneration saving throws against crumbling. The new "Unstable" rule explicitly bans taking saves of any kind.

Losing a combat with a Vampire present is going to be unforgivingly brutal. :( :mad:

Of course, none of our units are actually saddled with Unstable yet, but once they erratas come out I'm sure we will be.

Major_Blackhart
02-07-2010, 16:40
I think that Unstable will apply more to Daemons than anything, rather than Undead. Undead already have the crumble effect, which most certainly balance everything out. Unstable I think is definitely more oriented towards Daemons of Chaos specifically, as a way to maybe make them more fragile.

fall3nang3l
02-07-2010, 18:44
I agree with Major_Blackheart. unstable is a Daemons rule and crumbling is an undead rule. My hope is that there will be a slight change in crumbling in the errata though. Like something that would apply steadfast as a benefit for us.

Maoriboy007
03-07-2010, 06:24
Just discovered another lump we're taking this edition, my rotting lovelies:

We are no longer allowed to take Ward or Regeneration saving throws against crumbling. The new "Unstable" rule explicitly bans taking saves of any kind.

Losing a combat with a Vampire present is going to be unforgivingly brutal. :( :mad:

Of course, none of our units are actually saddled with Unstable yet, but once they erratas come out I'm sure we will be.

Undead armies have already taken more of their fair share of lumps in this edition, so I sincerely hope it only applies to Demonic instability, which actually benifits from the steadfast rule.

Ridarsin
04-07-2010, 02:18
You're completely right. I was at work and didnt have the book on me and I clearly made a lot of mistakes on points. It has never felt right to run a vampire without armor but I'll give it a shot. Good idea about the GG but I have wanted to try out a horde with them for some time. Bear in mind this is only my 2nd game in 8th so I'm still testing out interesting (maybe not so sensible) loadouts but it was all great advice


How do you kill an empire steam tank?

I have only faced a steam tank once (although with the Empire resurgence it will probably be not as rare). My guess is strength potion and sword of battle giving you 5 str8 attacks on your Lord or 4 str8 on a Hero.

I played my first official 8th edition game today. VC (me) and DE (originally a DoC player and surprisingly didn't know how to play) against Bretonian and Empire. 1500 point limit and if it weren't for my partner we would have fared better. My Vampire Lord (hate, red fury, SoM, Flayed, Crown) chewed through a Pegasus Lord, Warrior Priest, and Great-swords by himself. The new +1 flank bonus regardless of US is amazing. Granted I had amazing spell roll (VHD & Gaze) which helped a lot.

Scythe
05-07-2010, 07:18
Just discovered another lump we're taking this edition, my rotting lovelies:

We are no longer allowed to take Ward or Regeneration saving throws against crumbling. The new "Unstable" rule explicitly bans taking saves of any kind.

Losing a combat with a Vampire present is going to be unforgivingly brutal. :( :mad:

Of course, none of our units are actually saddled with Unstable yet, but once they erratas come out I'm sure we will be.

Well, even assuming we get unstable in the errata, it is hardly a big issue. When your vampire is on its own and losing combat, something has gone wrong anyway. It would be mildly annoying for things like Vargulfs and Black Coaches (both of which get buffed in other ways), but not much more.

Major_Blackhart
05-07-2010, 07:23
Yeah, but I still have a hard time seeing how VC will get unstable in their current inception. Based on the name of the rule itself, it doesn't feel like it applies. I dunno why, but from a my perspective, I see instability working on stuff that has a tenuous grip on reality already.
The undead will crumble, they won't explode in fiery death or fade away into nothingness, their limbs will fall off and they'll rot to pieces. I can't really see a way that the rule could apply to VC's. Models with the Vampire special rule are the only stable infantry (and slightly larger) sized models in the game really, besides the wight king.

LevDaddy
05-07-2010, 15:13
I agree - I doubt this will effect us.

As I understand it the Errata/FAQs are not supposed to be game changing, and adding unstable as a general rule to undead would be a major shift. The errata are merely supposed to clear up any compatibility issues between what already existed (which unstable hadn't for VC), and what will exist in 8th.

Also, there are many people who have seen the Errata already, and I'm sure we would have heard by now if something like that was going to happen.

Kalandros
05-07-2010, 17:09
Warning: the following post is a blatant Easter egg hunt

Does anything in the miscast table explicitly outline the damaging results as magical attacks? I mean, from a fluff standpoint they are obviously of a magical nature, but does the game actually define them as such? If not, I suppose there's a tricky RaW argument out there for Ethereal Vampires being immune to them.

I would NEVER dream of playing it that way myself, regardless of whether the rule is vague or not, but it seems like it might be a quirky little loophole for the hard-RaW crowd to take advantage of.

Rulebook's Ethereal rule covers 'Spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects'

I think its quite clear that a Miscast is included in 'magic effects'.

Balerion
05-07-2010, 20:39
Yeah, but I still have a hard time seeing how VC will get unstable in their current inception. Based on the name of the rule itself, it doesn't feel like it applies. I dunno why, but from a my perspective, I see instability working on stuff that has a tenuous grip on reality already.
The undead will crumble, they won't explode in fiery death or fade away into nothingness, their limbs will fall off and they'll rot to pieces. I can't really see a way that the rule could apply to VC's. Models with the Vampire special rule are the only stable infantry (and slightly larger) sized models in the game really, besides the wight king.
The only reason I'm worried it could be applied to Undead units is because the BRB writers deemed Unstable important enough to be included as a general Special Rule, yet they didn't do the same thing for the undead version. You would think that if one rule warranted general inclusion so would the other.

From a naming perspective, sure it applies. "Unstable" is a pretty open-ended definition, since it doesn't specify anything about the type of stability involved. Daemons are unstable troops because they're made of unpredictable, chaotic energies. Swarms are unstable because they're accretions of many mindless individuals. Undead are unstable because they'll deteriorate without the attention/will of a vampire.

Symrivven
07-07-2010, 12:06
Seeing that blood knights are still viable* in 8th edition I was looking at ways to field them and found an interesting combination (I think). The banner of bloodkeep, and character with Obsidian Amulett -- Bearer gains magic resistance (2). This way we have a unit with t4, 2+ save, 4++ versus shooting And 2++ vs ranged DD spells. Once we reach hth we need less protection because no shooting and hardly any DD spells can be targeted at the unit.

*Against elite units they have enough kill potential to destroy the few ranks the enemy might have. Against cheap horde they will probably not kill enough to remove all ranks the first turn but they will hardly suffer any wounds in return and will still be strong enough to deal with them in turn 2 and beyond.

Finn
07-07-2010, 13:36
Honestly, still sounds too expensive to be worth it :(.

Which is a shame, I can't figure out how I'm going to be able to get my nice Mournful Knight models into my army without feeling like I'm sacrificing efficiency.

shortlegs
07-07-2010, 13:45
Agreed, I think that 8th ed has boosted all the ways for blood knights to sustain casualties more easily (more effective shooting, TLOS, step up, stronger basic magic lores), while also limiting our ability to raise them back (potentially improving an opponent's magic defense through random number of dispel dice, lack of 1die invoc spam).

And while frenzy can be controlled in 8th, there is likely a decrease in cheap diverters in an opposing army to bait them in the first place (with the changes to the fast cav and skirmisher rules), so the ability to control frenzy may not mean so much when all your opponent has are things you want to charge and kill anyway. Also, now frenzy baiting starts when your blood knights are 19" away rather than just 14" away in previous ed (albeit a rather minor point).

Lordmonkey
07-07-2010, 14:00
I think single dice inovation spam casting is dead (lolpun!) if the rule about stopping on a 1 or 2 is true.

I'm looking at an army that revolves around a horde of about 40 ghouls, and a lord with ghoulkin. The amount of damage this unit can potentially do is sick, and with the support of a Lord with Ghoulkin casting invocation on at least two dice, it will likely grind down most enemies via attrition.


That's the theoryhammer anyway.

I'm also looking at running a Zombie Horde Horde for capturing objectives or tarpitting big gribblies, again, with 2-dice invocation support from whatever casters are nearby.

Balerion
07-07-2010, 16:56
I need to make some new movement trays today. :shifty:

Scythe
08-07-2010, 07:13
I think single dice inovation spam casting is dead (lolpun!) if the rule about stopping on a 1 or 2 is true.


It isn't really dead, but it is considerably less effective. Still, getting two necromancers with invocation is a minor pts investment, and enables you to throw a few dice at invocation without risking disabeling your primary vampire mage if you roll 1-2.

Of course, with +1 to cast, necromancers can now also cast vanhells on 2 dice rather reliably. I will be looking into 1-2 necromancers with vanhells and invocation as support (instead of an additional vampire). Should be interesting to see how that turns out.

Balerion
08-07-2010, 07:17
IoN is somewhat low on my list of casting priorities right now. You get more out of throwing 4 PD at Summon Undead Horde than you do out of throwing 4 PD at two castings of IoN.

Scythe
08-07-2010, 07:28
That is assuming you throw 2 dice at the invocation. If you have wizards which won't be casting spells this magic phase anymore anyway, there is no harm done throwing a single dice invocation.

Summon undead horde is nice, but not guaranteed unless you get Forbidden Lore, which, to me, seems more usefull to get one of the rulebook lores you usually don't have access to.

minionboy
08-07-2010, 07:57
That is assuming you throw 2 dice at the invocation. If you have wizards which won't be casting spells this magic phase anymore anyway, there is no harm done throwing a single dice invocation.

Summon undead horde is nice, but not guaranteed unless you get Forbidden Lore, which, to me, seems more usefull to get one of the rulebook lores you usually don't have access to.

I think 55 point IoN Necro's are going to start popping up in people's army. Easy to cast (3+ on 1 dice) and if you roll a 1-2, you don't prevent a more powerful caster from continuing.

Balerion
08-07-2010, 08:34
That is assuming you throw 2 dice at the invocation. If you have wizards which won't be casting spells this magic phase anymore anyway, there is no harm done throwing a single dice invocation.
It still feels a little wasteful to me, unless you're dealing with a single leftover die. Otherwise I think I'd often feel more comfortable throwing the pair of dice and improving my chances of getting a single spell off, rather than gambling on two 1/3 chances.

Although I could be persuaded otherwise, if someone did the math.

eg.
- probability of rolling one successful IoN on 2 paired PD
- probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD
- probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD


Summon undead horde is nice, but not guaranteed unless you get Forbidden Lore, which, to me, seems more usefull to get one of the rulebook lores you usually don't have access to.
Apparently a lvl 4 vampire has something like a 90% chance of securing SUH. A lvl 3 has somewhere in the range of 70%.

Lordmonkey
08-07-2010, 09:06
If you have wizards which won't be casting spells this magic phase anymore anyway, there is no harm done throwing a single dice invocation.

That's certainly true, and it is as ever a handy way to use up spare dice. The fact that dice are a global pool also means these dice can be given to the appropriate caster (i.e. the one with the summon power) :)

I used to use a Lvl3 Lord with MotBA and LotD and pour 7 dice into IoN (I used to call him the IoN Cannon, hur hur...). This would be my raising taken care of, and my other vampires usually took care of Van Hel's, etc... if they rolled them. They would pitch in with IoN if needed but the Lord was usually enough on his own.

I suppose if you have enough wizards with IoN on the field then there is enough backup to keep casting, but you can't benefit from Lord of the Dead with Necromancers, and Vampires are simply too expensive to use en masse, so you will get it cast less often in comparison to 7th.

One other thing that struck me; Forbidden lore is actually very powerful now. A level 1 Vampire can take it and gain access to the entire Lore of the Vampires. This was a bad idea before because he would only be allowed to use 2 dice per spell so most of it would be redundant.

Now, he can use all the power dice generated that turn to cast whatever he wants.

Is there some limitation i'm missing here? Seems quite abuseable to me (for small games at least)?

Lordmonkey
08-07-2010, 09:16
*Edit* Apologies for the double post, this was supposed to be an edit of my last one :(


probability of rolling one successful IoN on 2 paired PD

91.6% chance of success, assuming no summon power.
97.2% chance of success, assuming the appropriate summon power.


probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD

75% chance of success, assuming no summon power.
88.9% chance of success, assuming the appropriate summon power.

Wrong, see below.


probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD

25% chance of success, assuming no summon power.
44.4% chance of success, assuming the appropriate summon power.

Symrivven
08-07-2010, 09:20
It still feels a little wasteful to me, unless you're dealing with a single leftover die. Otherwise I think I'd often feel more comfortable throwing the pair of dice and improving my chances of getting a single spell off, rather than gambling on two 1/3 chances.

Although I could be persuaded otherwise, if someone did the math.

eg.
- probability of rolling one successful IoN on 2 paired PD
- probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD
- probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD

- probability of rolling one successful IoN on 2 paired PD
When rolling 2d6 only 3 (1,1;1,2;2,1) combinations will be lower than 4 so:
1-3/36 = 33/36 = 0.92

- probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD
First spell succeeds but not the second:
3/6 * 3/6 = 9/36 = 0.25

First spell fails on a 3 so you can still cast a second spell
1/6*3/6 =3/36 = 0.08
Total chance of only one successful IoN on two separate dice= 0.25 + 0.08 = 0.33

- probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD
3/6*3/6= 9/36 = 0.25


Chance of at least 1 IoN on 2 separate dice= 0.33 + 0.25 = 0.58

Average number of IoN 's on 2 paired dice = 0.92
Average number of IoN's on 2 seperate dice = 0.33*1 + 0.25*2 = 0.83

In short without bonuses its always* better to cast IoN on 2 paired dice.

*Unless its all or nothing and for some reason you need at least 2 IoN's, but then your ****ed anyway.

Lordmonkey
08-07-2010, 09:29
- probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD
First spell succeeds but not the second:
3/6 * 3/6 = 9/36 = 0.25

First spell fails on a 3 so you can still cast a second spell
1/6*3/6 =3/36 = 0.08


Very well spotted, I failed to factor in the end of casting on a roll of a 1 or a 2. :rolleyes:


Total chance of only one successful IoN on two separate dice= 0.25 + 0.08 = 0.33

I think Balerion wants to know what the chances are of casting at least one successful IoN rather than specifically one cast.

If true then:

First spell succeeds:
3/6 = 0.5

First spell fails on a 3 so you can still cast a second spell
1/6*3/6 =3/36 = 0.08

Which adds up to 0.58 or 58% chance.

(I shamelessly copied and pasted your text :D )

*Edit* Interestingly, with the appropriate summon power, you either successfully cast on the first try (dice needs to be 3+), or you fail and don't cast again with that wizard. So the chances of casting at least 1 IoN on two seperate PD in this case (assuming the same wizard) is simply 66% - the second dice becomes irrelevant!

Balerion
08-07-2010, 09:32
Handy work, fellas.

Forbidden Lore: Lore of Math ;)

PurchasedPig
08-07-2010, 09:52
The only reason I'm worried it could be applied to Undead units is because the BRB writers deemed Unstable important enough to be included as a general Special Rule, yet they didn't do the same thing for the undead version. You would think that if one rule warranted general inclusion so would the other.

From a naming perspective, sure it applies. "Unstable" is a pretty open-ended definition, since it doesn't specify anything about the type of stability involved. Daemons are unstable troops because they're made of unpredictable, chaotic energies. Swarms are unstable because they're accretions of many mindless individuals. Undead are unstable because they'll deteriorate without the attention/will of a vampire.

Just thought I'd point out that the rule is there to subsequently explain Swarms in the same book. I doubt it will transfer over to Undead.

-PurchasedPig-

Scythe
08-07-2010, 12:17
One other thing that struck me; Forbidden lore is actually very powerful now. A level 1 Vampire can take it and gain access to the entire Lore of the Vampires. This was a bad idea before because he would only be allowed to use 2 dice per spell so most of it would be redundant.

Now, he can use all the power dice generated that turn to cast whatever he wants.

Is there some limitation i'm missing here? Seems quite abuseable to me (for small games at least)?

It is quite powerfull. I will usually be using it to get the rulebook lores though. There are quite a few hidden gems in there; some unit buffs are very usefull for undead.


- probability of rolling one successful IoN on 2 paired PD
When rolling 2d6 only 3 (1,1;1,2;2,1) combinations will be lower than 4 so:
1-3/36 = 33/36 = 0.92

- probability of rolling one successful IoN on two separate PD
First spell succeeds but not the second:
3/6 * 3/6 = 9/36 = 0.25

First spell fails on a 3 so you can still cast a second spell
1/6*3/6 =3/36 = 0.08
Total chance of only one successful IoN on two separate dice= 0.25 + 0.08 = 0.33

- probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD
3/6*3/6= 9/36 = 0.25


Chance of at least 1 IoN on 2 separate dice= 0.33 + 0.25 = 0.58

Average number of IoN 's on 2 paired dice = 0.92
Average number of IoN's on 2 seperate dice = 0.33*1 + 0.25*2 = 0.83

In short without bonuses its always* better to cast IoN on 2 paired dice.

*Unless its all or nothing and for some reason you need at least 2 IoN's, but then your ****ed anyway.

I think you failed to take into account the bonus equal to magic level any wizard gets to the casting rolls these days. This means even a lowly necromancer casts invocation on 3+. This gives:

- probability of rolling two successful IoN on two separate PD
4/6*4/6 = 0.44

- chance of at least 1 IoN on 2 separate dice (assuming one wizard available)
0.66 * 0.33 (cast first, fail second) = 0.22
- chance of at least 1 IoN on 2 separate dice (assuming two wizard available)
0.66 * 0.33 (cast first, fail second) + 0.33*0.66 (fail first, cast second)= 0.44

average amount of spells cast (one wizard):
0.44 * 2 + 0.22 * 1 = 1.1

average amount of spells cast (two wizards):
0.44 * 2 + 0.44 * 1 = 1.32

average amount of spells cast (one wizard using two dice; only fails on double 1):
35 / 36 = 0.97

In short, even if you only have a single wizard, he gets more spells cast if using single power dice on separate invocations. However, if you want to cast something else after the invocation, it is obviously less risky to throw 2 dice at the invocation.

Symrivven
08-07-2010, 12:29
I think you failed to take into account the bonus equal to magic level any wizard gets to the casting rolls these days.

yes I missed that "little" part. :/
A well, better next time.

Lordmonkey
08-07-2010, 12:37
I think you failed to take into account the bonus equal to magic level any wizard gets to the casting rolls these days.

Erk, you are right!

This also makes the summon powers relatively redundant by comparison, as taking an extra magic level (Dark Acoloyte) is better, albiet more expensive. You could stack them of course...

So, a Vampire Lord with an extra level and Dark Acoloyte is level 4. Give him Lord of the Dead and that arcane +1 to cast doo-hickey and he adds a whopping 6 to cast Invocation of Nehek on skeletons. Roll 2d6 and add 6 and your opponent will either have to invest a lot of dice to stop you, or have a high level spellcaster in place to dispel with, or ignore it.

Finn
09-07-2010, 00:07
So, a Vampire Lord with an extra level and Dark Acoloyte is level 4. Give him Lord of the Dead and that arcane +1 to cast doo-hickey and he adds a whopping 6 to cast Invocation of Nehek on skeletons. Roll 2d6 and add 6 and your opponent will either have to invest a lot of dice to stop you, or have a high level spellcaster in place to dispel with, or ignore it.

Also for a whopping 360 points before any protective gear. Dunno about you, but my single Lord is going to be my general in any game short of 3-3.5k - so pretty much all of them. Sure you can spend up to 200 more points on him in a 2250, but I always find myself needing the points elsewhere in the army.

Anyway, I've got these cool Mournful Knight models (2 of them, a guy with a sword and a standard bearer, both on awesome barded mounts) that I really wanted to use as a BSB and a vampire. Any ideas on how to fit them in without sacrificing too much efficiency? I've been thinking of outfitting the BSB with MotBA and sitting him in a bunker unit behind my lines, and a nightmare from the unit entry (yeah, no barding...) or Dread Knight/some other useful power like Forbidden Lore and a War Banner (side note: our War Banner still costs 25, or does it use the new cost in the rulebook?). The model with the sword I think I can fit in without too much trouble.

Nkari
09-07-2010, 00:19
Watch all your mounted chars get sniped by cannons and magic if they are mounted in a infantry unit.. (Biggest gripe I have with 8th other than inf charging a D6 to far..)

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 01:20
(side note: our War Banner still costs 25, or does it use the new cost in the rulebook?). The model with the sword I think I can fit in without too much trouble.

It's still 25.

The rulebook has a blurb in the beginning of the magic items section that if an item exists in the both the BRB and the army book, use the AB's listed cost. It further explains that this is due to certain army's having easier/more difficult access to certain magical items.

shortlegs
09-07-2010, 01:29
In short, even if you only have a single wizard, he gets more spells cast if using single power dice on separate invocations. However, if you want to cast something else after the invocation, it is obviously less risky to throw 2 dice at the invocation.
But while you may cast more spells on average by single die-invocs, it doesn't take into account the higher average casting roll while using 2 dice casting, which may potentially force your opponent to use more DD to dispel. So while the number of spells you cast may be slightly less on average, I think the number of successful dispels by your opponent may be even less, so the number of spells that goes through may be higher if you cast it on 2-dice.

Of course that will depend on how many wizards and of what level your opponent brings. I'm just saying that whether you cast invoc on 1 die or 2 is really dependent on the situation, there is no 1 option that is clearly better than the other like it was in 7th.

shortlegs
09-07-2010, 01:39
What would be a preferred vampire skills setup for a purely caster lord? The 7th ed favourite was MotBA, Forbidden lore and a summon ability of your choosing. I'm tight for points as it is, so I'm not bringing another vamp for MotBA (which means my lord is stuck with carrying it).

Should I change forbidden lore for dark acolyte? It gives a very important +1 to casting/dispelling (which we used to pay 65 points for in the skullstaff), and the chances of you getting the useful spells in the vampire lore is pretty high now with a lvl4 and the new rules for spell selection.

However, given the big boost in potency of the 8 core magic lores, forbidden lore is still rather tempting...

Any suggestions or advice on this matter besides getting a vamp hero as MotBA caddy? I'm not keen on shelling 200points for a easily-killed vampire just to free up my lord's allowances.

Finn
09-07-2010, 01:41
Watch all your mounted chars get sniped by cannons and magic if they are mounted in a infantry unit.. (Biggest gripe I have with 8th other than inf charging a D6 to far..)

My concern was on whether or not this was possible, yes, as I tried a game with a small unit of 5 Black Knights with my BSB and vampire (as my general) inside to avoid having to look it up while we were still learning the more basic rules. That's an expensive bunker unit that doesn't last long. On the plus side, it was rather mobile...

I don't face many cannons, so I'm not worried about those too much. Is there anyone out there who's familiar enough with the 8th ed. rulebook (my LGS has had an advance copy for almost a month) who can enlighten me? On whether you can pick out a mounted character as a separate target with missile fire ;). I'm aware that there are plenty of spells that can target characters inside units anyway, but would being mounted be a further detriment other than not benefiting from Look Out Sir! (or whatever) against cannon fire?

Lordmonkey
09-07-2010, 02:18
Also for a whopping 360 points before any protective gear..

205 + 50 + 65 + 30 +15 = 365. This is legal in an army of 1460pts or greater. Don't forget that you still have 25% to spend on heroes :)

Chuck in the flayed hauberk and you are laughing :)

Balerion
09-07-2010, 03:18
What would be a preferred vampire skills setup for a purely caster lord? The 7th ed favourite was MotBA, Forbidden lore and a summon ability of your choosing. I'm tight for points as it is, so I'm not bringing another vamp for MotBA (which means my lord is stuck with carrying it).

Should I change forbidden lore for dark acolyte? It gives a very important +1 to casting/dispelling (which we used to pay 65 points for in the skullstaff), and the chances of you getting the useful spells in the vampire lore is pretty high now with a lvl4 and the new rules for spell selection.

However, given the big boost in potency of the 8 core magic lores, forbidden lore is still rather tempting...

Any suggestions or advice on this matter besides getting a vamp hero as MotBA caddy? I'm not keen on shelling 200points for a easily-killed vampire just to free up my lord's allowances.
I'd be reluctant to put Forbidden Lore on my General.

We need to protect our Generals as much as we can, which usually means bunkering them somewhere. If you're using the powerful rulebook Lores with their high casting values you'll be risking miscasts on your general, which can devastate him and/or his unit. I like the idea of having a Forbidden Lore hero vamp caddy in a worthless bunker (eg. 10 skeletons) to make miscasts survivable, but since you're tight on points it probably won't work out for you.

Edit: Woops, forgot about characters not being able to join up with zomboids

Balerion
09-07-2010, 03:20
My concern was on whether or not this was possible, yes, as I tried a game with a small unit of 5 Black Knights with my BSB and vampire (as my general) inside to avoid having to look it up while we were still learning the more basic rules. That's an expensive bunker unit that doesn't last long. On the plus side, it was rather mobile...

I don't face many cannons, so I'm not worried about those too much. Is there anyone out there who's familiar enough with the 8th ed. rulebook (my LGS has had an advance copy for almost a month) who can enlighten me? On whether you can pick out a mounted character as a separate target with missile fire ;). I'm aware that there are plenty of spells that can target characters inside units anyway, but would being mounted be a further detriment other than not benefiting from Look Out Sir! (or whatever) against cannon fire?
Why not just forsake the mount? Now that we can get good ward saves with no downside from the common list there's not as much reason to insist on the cavalry save bonus.

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 04:47
I'm thinking a hybrid Lord as follows:

440 pts - +Lvl 3, Forbidden Lore, Red Fury, Crown of the Damned, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Might, and the new 25 pt scroll that lets you re-roll your miscast. Stick him in a 30-35 Skeleton bus.

I'm loving the Lore of Metal. I didn't realize until I re-read the spells today that it can be great against any army, not just WoC or highly armored units because the hexes and buffs are pretty sweet. Also digging Beasts and Heavens.

@Balerion - Characters can never join Zombies, VC AB pg 42 - Newly Dead rule.

Balerion
09-07-2010, 05:35
I'm thinking a hybrid Lord as follows:

440 pts - +Lvl 3, Forbidden Lore, Red Fury, Crown of the Damned, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Might, and the new 25 pt scroll that lets you re-roll your miscast. Stick him in a 30-35 Skeleton bus.
Good build if you have a BSB around to reroll the stupidity moments.



@Balerion - Characters can never join Zombies, VC AB pg 42 - Newly Dead rule.
You're totally right, I forgot about that. Maybe because before 8th edition I had never fielded a non-summoned unit of Zombies. :D

Finn
09-07-2010, 07:03
Why not just forsake the mount? Now that we can get good ward saves with no downside from the common list there's not as much reason to insist on the cavalry save bonus.

Because my nifty-as-hell models are mounted. They're really pretty, I want to use them.

Yes, you can use that lord (365, excuse me was going from memory) in up to 1450, but that doesn't leave you many points to have an effective army. Let's say you're playing 1500 - just over 1100 points goes away rather quickly, especially if you take other heroes. Still, the idea is nice enough that I might try a version of it...

Scythe
09-07-2010, 07:20
But while you may cast more spells on average by single die-invocs, it doesn't take into account the higher average casting roll while using 2 dice casting, which may potentially force your opponent to use more DD to dispel. So while the number of spells you cast may be slightly less on average, I think the number of successful dispels by your opponent may be even less, so the number of spells that goes through may be higher if you cast it on 2-dice.

Of course that will depend on how many wizards and of what level your opponent brings. I'm just saying that whether you cast invoc on 1 die or 2 is really dependent on the situation, there is no 1 option that is clearly better than the other like it was in 7th.

True, there isn't a clear better option. It will depend on a lot of variables which will be different from game to game.

Interesting point to remember: a natural 1-2 on dispel also fails the dispel roll automatically as well (and disables the dispeller from further dispel attempts this phase). Thus, it will always be risky for the opponent to draw a single dice to dispel your invocation, always giving you 33% chance of blowing through, and possibly disabeling that lvl4 wizard lord for further dispel attempts. If he throws 2 dice to dispel, you should gain the dice advantage rather easily.


What would be a preferred vampire skills setup for a purely caster lord? The 7th ed favourite was MotBA, Forbidden lore and a summon ability of your choosing. I'm tight for points as it is, so I'm not bringing another vamp for MotBA (which means my lord is stuck with carrying it).

Should I change forbidden lore for dark acolyte? It gives a very important +1 to casting/dispelling (which we used to pay 65 points for in the skullstaff), and the chances of you getting the useful spells in the vampire lore is pretty high now with a lvl4 and the new rules for spell selection.

However, given the big boost in potency of the 8 core magic lores, forbidden lore is still rather tempting...

Any suggestions or advice on this matter besides getting a vamp hero as MotBA caddy? I'm not keen on shelling 200points for a easily-killed vampire just to free up my lord's allowances.

I agree with Balerion here, I think Forbidden Lore will be more effective on hero level vampires. Your lord is vulnerable, and gets a large amount of spells anyway, so I will probably stick to lore of vampires for him, while using a hero with a rulebook lore. Use the magic item allowance of the hero for protection (shouldn't be a huge problem, with the large amount of common magic items available).

Balerion
09-07-2010, 10:36
FAQ's up, baby!

Major notes/first impressions:

- Direwolves nerfed! No longer Fast Cavalry, so no free reforms. :(

- MotDA battery idea squashed; dice can only be used by the generating character

- Black Periapt improves a bit

- Black Coach is not nerfed. Suck up those dice!

- Carstein Ring gives your vamp a Continue? after being sucked into the warp

Symrivven
09-07-2010, 11:13
You can use dread knight with other mounts.

We can still save/regen break test wounds.

Finn
09-07-2010, 12:05
- MotDA battery idea squashed; dice can only be used by the generating character

Saw that coming ;).

Why was there ever a question about not being able to Regen/Ward Save break test wounds? :wtf: I really doubt GW would intentionally make the army unviable, despite their track record.

And Dire Wolves may have lost the Fast Cav ability (I never got to use the Scout move because the one time I used them I forgot...), but they're now War Beasts - don't those get a single stomp attack at the end of combat? That's not bad.

I'm disappointed they didn't make Banner of the Dead Legion do something useful. Perhaps making the enemy not count as stubborn if they had more ranks, or something. Telling us to ignore an item is rather lame.

Also, <3 how Zombie Dragons don't take up Hero points. Not that I see myself using mine, but who know?

SteelTitan
09-07-2010, 12:19
*sigh* Dire wolves always had a special place in my heart but looks like they will stay on the shelve a bit longer. IF they do get a stomp attack, they might just be a nice cheapish way to get rid of things on less crowded flanks. Sort of suicide stompers :P

So Drakenhoff banner can still be used against break test wounds?

Symrivven
09-07-2010, 12:20
Why was there ever a question about not being able to Regen/Ward Save break test wounds? :wtf: I really doubt GW would intentionally make the army unviable, despite their track record.



There was a discussion (in this thread) that VC would get the unstable USR which would remove the ability to save vs these wounds.

Edit:

So Drakenhoff banner can still be used against break test wounds?

yes

meanmachine
09-07-2010, 14:40
are the 2 power dice form motba not sucked up by the black coach, since the dice can only be used by the vampire with the power are they separate from the pool

fall3nang3l
09-07-2010, 18:41
So as you all know the FAQ is out. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1260032a_FAQ_VampireCounts2010.pdf just in case you need a quick fix.

Question of Vanhel's Danse. It says it has been changed to
it can charge (with a charge range of 8"), wheel, or even reform.

Does this mean its 8 + 2d6"? doubt it but I was curious

Corpse Cart with thunderstomp woot. Its a cool perk

Clearly, MOTBA caddies aren't going to work.

Dire Wolves aren't fast cav anymore, which is a shame...

I'm extremely disappointed that the Banner of the Dead Legion was simply removed. It seems like such a poor fix.

other than that just some text clear ups which is what an errata is for (minus the whole dire wolves thing)


Also, I'm going to rework the front post so if there is anything you would like to have included, please pm me.

Finn
09-07-2010, 19:00
There was a discussion (in this thread) that VC would get the unstable USR which would remove the ability to save vs these wounds.

Ah, I missed that part of the Unstable discussion as I was extremely doubtful it was going to be applied to us.

I'm sorry, Dire Wolves don't have a Stomp attack - I misremembered what Salamanders had become (Monstrous Infantry, which gets the attack, I thought they became War Beasts). War Beasts have Swiftstride, so they will roll 3 dice and drop the lowest when charging or pursuing (or fleeing, but that doesn't apply to us).

Still, I'll probably find a use for my 7 Wolves. Cheap and fast is never a bad thing, and if I can acquire 3 more I can eliminate ranks with flanking...still a viable tactic IMO.

fall3nang3l
09-07-2010, 19:04
Actually. the discussion of the Unstable special rule does not apply to us. It in fact, applies to Tomb Kings as says their FAQ


Break Tests
Change to "All Undead units have the Unbreakable and Unstable special rules."


So we keep crumble (as we should) and tomb kings are bridging the gap between daemons and vampire counts.

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 19:10
I still think MotBA is useful though. 2 dice is 2 dice, especially when dice are so limited, even if it will only be used by a lvl 1 casting IoN.

So a Corpse Cart with Okkam's Mindrazor cast on it will have 2D6 S7 attacks plus D6 Thunderstomp S7 attacks? Iiiiiiinnntteeerrrreessstttiiinnnng.

Throw in the Helm for more pleasure.

snakezenn
09-07-2010, 22:47
Perhaps this could be cleared up for me, since dire wolves are no longer fast cav, then could a vampire with the summon wild things or whatever it is to increase their number now do d6 rather than just 1 for adding extra bodies? If so we have a winner, if not they suck still.

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 22:55
Ooooooo, great question!!!!

Skyros
09-07-2010, 22:57
Saw that coming ;).

Why was there ever a question about not being able to Regen/Ward Save break test wounds? :wtf:

Did you see the new unstable rules? That TK got hit with?

Balerion
09-07-2010, 23:14
Perhaps this could be cleared up for me, since dire wolves are no longer fast cav, then could a vampire with the summon wild things or whatever it is to increase their number now do d6 rather than just 1 for adding extra bodies? If so we have a winner, if not they suck still.
Unfortunately it's still only 1 per raise, as War Beasts remain a "non-infantry unit" (which is the wording used in IoN).

It was a good question, though. :)

snakezenn
09-07-2010, 23:44
Ack...too bad, oh well theyll just remain on their shelves collecting dust. I assume that its the same thing with summon undead horde right? The non-infantry thing. Dont have my book otherwise would check it out.

Finn
10-07-2010, 00:16
Did you see the new unstable rules? That TK got hit with?

I did. But they didn't have Crumble before, and we did. Crumble + Unstable = dead undead. If they'd done that, it would have utterly ruined what is otherwise an enjoyable set of rules and I would've just sold my stuff rather than waiting for yet another new edition hoping they got it right.


Ack...too bad, oh well theyll just remain on their shelves collecting dust. I assume that its the same thing with summon undead horde right? The non-infantry thing. Dont have my book otherwise would check it out.

Yes it's the same wording, it references the IoN entry and then goes further to say the same restrictions apply. I've never found myself wanting to raise more Wolves actually; I suspect I'll still experiment with using mine. They tend to be a cheap distracting unit that creates opportunities more than anything else, and for that they're worth their 8 pts.

Mach_5
10-07-2010, 04:06
So what units are people planning to use for war machine hunting?

In 7e Wolves and bats were my typical choices, both were fast enough for a turn 2 charge, wolves were usually good for 3 attacks plus outnumber, while bats could usually get 6 attacks plus outnumber (I'd take units of 4-5). Autobreak from fear finished off most crews in one turn.

Now in 8e only 2 warbeasts are allowed to attack a warmachine at a time (both wolves and bats are now warbeasts), and no supporting attacks. Without outnumber/autobreak the wolves are right out, they'd be lucky to tie up the machine for a round before they died. The bats are hardly better with their measly 4 S3 I3 attacks.

What then? Magic missiles? Summoned zombies?

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 04:21
Wait... does war beasts get rank bonuses?

Because if they do, we've just found a really cheap way to remove an enemy's rank bonus. 10-15-strong units of dire wolves.

Although that still leaves us with the main problem of winning combat in the first place.. but depriving rank bonuses should help with that somewhat..

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 04:23
So what units are people planning to use for war machine hunting?

In 7e Wolves and bats were my typical choices, both were fast enough for a turn 2 charge, wolves were usually good for 3 attacks plus outnumber, while bats could usually get 6 attacks plus outnumber (I'd take units of 4-5). Autobreak from fear finished off most crews in one turn.

Now in 8e only 2 warbeasts are allowed to attack a warmachine at a time (both wolves and bats are now warbeasts), and no supporting attacks. Without outnumber/autobreak the wolves are right out, they'd be lucky to tie up the machine for a round before they died. The bats are hardly better with their measly 4 S3 I3 attacks.

What then? Magic missiles? Summoned zombies?
I'm tempted for a small unit of 3 wraiths. Still pretty fast at M6, and if they survive the magic thrown at them, they will make short work of any war machine, much better than wolves or even fell bats.

Finn
10-07-2010, 05:49
I'm tempted for a small unit of 3 wraiths. Still pretty fast at M6, and if they survive the magic thrown at them, they will make short work of any war machine, much better than wolves or even fell bats.

I like Wraiths a lot, I think they're underestimated. Being immune to almost every attack in hand-to-hand (and having Great Weapons to boot) makes up for their weaknesses.

NitrosOkay
10-07-2010, 06:20
I've had a lot of success with Wraiths in seven games so far of 8th. If you can dispel a magic missile on turn one, then Vanhel's them into something on turn 2 or 3 they can't be targetted by magic missiles while in combat and if your opponent is lacking magic weapons...


Of course, one game hilarity happened and the 5 Wraiths and Banshee killed a Dark Elf Dreadlord on Manticore in combat after he failed 3 ward saves.

Maoriboy007
10-07-2010, 07:45
So what units are people planning to use for war machine hunting?

In 7e Wolves and bats were my typical choices, both were fast enough for a turn 2 charge, wolves were usually good for 3 attacks plus outnumber, while bats could usually get 6 attacks plus outnumber (I'd take units of 4-5). Autobreak from fear finished off most crews in one turn.

Now in 8e only 2 warbeasts are allowed to attack a warmachine at a time (both wolves and bats are now warbeasts), and no supporting attacks. Without outnumber/autobreak the wolves are right out, they'd be lucky to tie up the machine for a round before they died. The bats are hardly better with their measly 4 S3 I3 attacks.

What then? Magic missiles? Summoned zombies?

Why they bothered nerfing dire wolves is beyond me, they were already a substandard unit to begin with, if you want to take the summon creatures of the night power then bats are the way to go, you can summon a nasty cloud of the buggers pretty quickly.

Balerion
10-07-2010, 08:07
Now in 8e only 2 warbeasts are allowed to attack a warmachine at a time (both wolves and bats are now warbeasts), and no supporting attacks. Without outnumber/autobreak the wolves are right out, they'd be lucky to tie up the machine for a round before they died. The bats are hardly better with their measly 4 S3 I3 attacks.

Actually, I think War Beasts can have six models attacking, just like infantry do. My initial interpretation was in line with yours, but upon a second look at the rules for charging war machines I believe only monstrous units (infantry, cav, beasts and monsters) face the limitations.

Wolves don't get an outnumber bonus, but they would get an equivalent +1 for charging.


Wait... does war beasts get rank bonuses?

Because if they do, we've just found a really cheap way to remove an enemy's rank bonus. 10-15-strong units of dire wolves.

They do... but the thing is, so does fast cavalry. As fast cav the Wolves could have steamrolled down a board-edge and reformed to set up a flank charge. As war beasts they don't get the free reform, so in order to line up a flank charge you need enough movement to get into the enemy's side arc while saving enough to also perform a wheel to position them in your frontal charge arc. It's much tougher.

Kalandros
10-07-2010, 08:18
that red line in your sig definitely draws attention... O: Though sorry I don't have any ;D

Also I have found the best use for my War hounds (using chaos hound models for my chaos-y undeads). I'm using 10 of my 28 (2 used for plastic varghulf conversions) and putting those 10 on a single 20mm base each.
Then I'm having 10 more 20mm bases that will only have the same type of basing, maybe a few scattered equipment like shields and stuff.

Then they will be filled into my ghoul units.

Not wasting my models! :D Making those 50 model-strong ghoul units to look like a mixed shambling horde of undeadness. (:

now my only real problem is figuring what to do about the Rare %.. I want all 4 rares D: and many of them, oh the pain in choosing.. so far I'm leaning toward 2 Black Coach, because I want to nerf magic, and then perhaps a Varghulf, Wraiths and blood knights may need to wait for much higher point levels like 4000, 5000+... ]:

meanmachine
10-07-2010, 09:09
now my only real problem is figuring what to do about the Rare %.. I want all 4 rares D: and many of them, oh the pain in choosing.. so far I'm leaning toward 2 Black Coach, because I want to nerf magic,


there is no point of having 2 coaches since you only get 1 attempt to steal dice and if you have 2 coaches you must randomize which coach receives the bonus. its more reliable to take 1

i tried taking a black coach the other day, at the end of turn 2 it was flying

Ovassilias
10-07-2010, 09:30
Things ive seen so far that kinda work...

Necromancers for Vanhels, with the FAQ up it makes it so much better+cheap suiside caster lol.

2x MotBA vamps as heal bots with invo and a random spell. Naked that is at 150 a pop.

Minimum one corpse cart and use 2 PD to cast ASF. Which power is debatable since raising is a bit of a problem now, both powers help a lot.

Black Coach. Yeah, the only real magic defence that can screw your own PD, a gamble that is worth taking imo.

Skellies and Ghoul units at decent starting size (so far for me 25 skellies 5*5and 21 ghoul units 7*3 are working). IMO both are needed, skellies for the musician,banner and magic banner option and ghouls for multi-attacks and normal statline. As a note for weapons on skellies...cant really decide, parry is good, more attacks is good as well....points hurt though.

Grave Guard are the only real option for a unit that can hold and deliver kills. A 7 wide front is nice...how many u want or can have is based on your points left, 28+ 2xcharacters is decent (lord and bsb).
NOT with great weapons for me...ive found the extra save from shield and the parry combined with supporting attacks and killing blow is way better.
HATRED banner is a must for these guys, your lord should be here to free the vamp power as well.

other special unit worth taking are black knights in 10's, it costs a lot and imo more wounds are deffinatelly better in 8th, so 10BK vs 20 GG.....GG for me. I rather add a second grave guard unit then take black knights.

Blood knights....closet. End of storry, unless u plan on using a really large unit. The only banner worth taking is the ward save considering the regen nerf all around. They wont break anything thus sticking in combat for at least one round giving the chance to your opponent to counter charge them with anything and wiping them.

Varghulf, still ok but when u face a 40-60 core archer army he will never reach across.

Wraiths...expensive with so many magic attacks around, including banners that give shooting units magic attacks, but there is room for them.

thats all for now :)

Frgt/10
10-07-2010, 11:02
been running a 35 strong grave guard unit with great weapons and banner of the barrows in horde formation to great effect. add in a bsb with drakenhoff and everything just bounces off them. got charged by 12 cold one knights + malus with the deamon up and wiped out the unit in one combat phase with minimal casualties. following turn they butchered and ran down 35 corsairs.

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 11:49
They do... but the thing is, so does fast cavalry. As fast cav the Wolves could have steamrolled down a board-edge and reformed to set up a flank charge. As war beasts they don't get the free reform, so in order to line up a flank charge you need enough movement to get into the enemy's side arc while saving enough to also perform a wheel to position them in your frontal charge arc. It's much tougher.
Unless I remember wrongly, fast cav never got rank bonuses (that was for 7th, not sure if things have changed in 8th..).

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 11:58
been running a 35 strong grave guard unit with great weapons and banner of the barrows in horde formation to great effect. add in a bsb with drakenhoff and everything just bounces off them. got charged by 12 cold one knights + malus with the deamon up and wiped out the unit in one combat phase with minimal casualties. following turn they butchered and ran down 35 corsairs.
GG deathstars are still potent, but I think they took a hit. The BSB is easier to kill, with him not being on a barded steed and more step up attacks going his way. Regen is easier to negate and it stays down for the whole phase, which hurts a lot. Also, the many crazy mega spells being slung around all hurts deathstars terribly.