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The Blades of reason
08-06-2010, 19:19
from what i've seen most other armies have one so heres the wood elf one, yay!

some things i've thought on are shooting in two ranks, i always field 3 units of 10 in two ranks and i find trhe nearest hill and stay put, but shooting in two ranks means they are are more manouverable and can keep up with the rest of the stuff.

this is all i've got at the moment so what other changes are tehre that is good fot the wood elves that you have noticed.

Malorian
08-06-2010, 19:24
Dryads will be useful in larger units.

Waywatchers won't be as effective as they can't hide behind 2+ inches of terrain.

Marching blocking also won't be as easy so those units of glade guard will be jumped on sooner.

With more people taking mroe shooting our fragile units will be hard pressed.

Needing a rank to take away ranks, and stubborn when you have more ranks, will mean it'll be even harder to break units quickly.


Basically I really don't think wood elves will be in a good state...

bluemage
08-06-2010, 19:41
Yeah I'm not really sure how wood elves will even be competative come 8th. Based on the rumours, what I've come up with is running more glade guard as now they can fire in two ranks. Dryads will still be effective I think. But war dancers and wild riders will need to be replaced with treekin.

Wardancers and wild riders will be killed by the return attacks and won't break a stubborn enemy. The treekin have the durability to stand there and hits. Which is pretty irritating when you take into account that treekin are $20 US and ugly models. I don't own any currently and don't want to spend several hundred dollars but 8+ treekin. I'd rather go start another army for that much. Hopefully they get some nice looking plastic models in the near future.

Rather negative but I think the best strategy come 8th is to selve them and play something else. True Line of Sight means you can't high behind forests and hills anymore. Difficult terrain is supposed to be removed, I guess to facilitate large blocks of infantry moving around the board. And march blocking can be ignored with a leadership check. I really don't see them doing well come 8th.

GW doesn't want people playing hiding, skirmishing armies, which is what warhammer has become. The problem is that wood elves can't compete any other way.

Witchblade
08-06-2010, 20:29
Treemen
6-man+ treekin units
Lots of shooting
A serious amount of magic
Some dryads
Some warmachine hunters

Boring...

GodlessM
08-06-2010, 22:41
Dryads will be useful in larger units.


How do you figure? They have to adapt a static formation, lose 360 LOS, and do not benefit from a rank bonus despite having the rank up. By my reckoning the only skirmishers worth their salt in 8th are those with ranged weapons.

One thing to note is that if solo man-sized characters on foot still count as skirmishers then the Alter Noble/Born can march 18" and then shoot his bow, giving him a potential 48" range.

goodz
08-06-2010, 23:00
C-staff level 4 spellweaver and 3x dispel scrolls. - my total magic/magic defense in one little elf.

treemen and dryads both stay useful. All the things i hate in the list are nice :)

Unlimited casting of treesinging with 2D6 dice and adding your caster level would be sexy,
Treemen for bound spell and the fact that they pwn, especially now that you can surf them even further likley.

Glade riders i don't see as very useful now that they can not march block...
Eternal gaurd might be decent in a big block, but i think i prefer dryads.
ww just arent as good as treemen in new rules except in rare occasions.


I was contimplating a unit of 20 gladegaurd in 2 ranks of 10 if i can stand and shoot 20 shots might be able to panic or at least rip apart some units, especially if charging from close range. still pretty uncertain about how i feel about big units of gg though:)

Interesting to see what people do, I am intent on continuing a list with no tree spirits so we shall see how that goes :)

I havent read anything about the new forest rules, but maybe they will make tree singing uber powerful:P to balance the elfs

bluemage
08-06-2010, 23:02
The reason that dryads might be more useful in large formations is protracted combats. Wood Elves aren't going to have much that can break the opponents ranks, so you're bound to take some casualties. Also against someone using a horde formation, you'll be able get alot more dryads into base to base.

I'm assuming that even though skirmishers will have some form of being ranked up, you'll still move them all into base to base if possible when in combat.

goodz
08-06-2010, 23:09
I'm assuming that even though skirmishers will have some form of being ranked up, you'll still move them all into base to base if possible when in combat.

I assumed i could still put my waywatchers in a unit of 6 as below so they arent taking up huge space, might have read the rumor wrong though, but yea i dunno if they would stay ranked up in close combat, shall be interesting

XOXOXO
OXOXOX

nick_robinsonchia
08-06-2010, 23:30
Outlook is bleak...

So many negatives but very few positives. My brothers gonna be pissed lol. This is what I can see so far that hasn't allready been said. I'm just gonna stick with a couple of poitice points as the negatives seem pretty obvious.

Positives
1. Treekin and eternal guard got better.
2. ITP wardancers and dryads will likely attack first if they got themselves into a situation where they get charged. Seeing as how they couldn't flee anyway they got stronger at taking a charge.
3. Shooting in ranks. Combined with a more manoeverable movement phase means close supporting fire will take a significant boost. I have a feeling you will see 15 strong ranked archers with standard and musicians being used in a dual role as close fire support and potential flankers of weak infantry/cav. Seeing as they have WS 4 the majority of large units will only be hitting on a 4 so I think casualties back from a average ranked unit won't be to severe. I think that + combined combat unit charges to actually get kills might be the best option at this point.
4. Treemen get a killing bump with the d6 stomp attack. Well priced for their role it seems they will do it better now.
5. Wardancers and wildriders get a 5+ward against magic missiles which will help out some.
6. Gladeriders and wild riders will perform hunting roles better with the Free 12 inch move but overall have been diminished because of the must have a rank rule :(. Honestly I'm not quite sure what WR are supposed to do now... They were never hitty enough to take a unit from the front... Now they either can't negate ranks(if it's a legitimate rank for negating or just models in a second rank I'm not sure) or else are prohibitively expensive.

That's all I got time for. Keep it coming il likely direct my brother here...hopefully he doesn't get too disconcerted !!

N

GodlessM
08-06-2010, 23:53
The reason that dryads might be more useful in large formations is protracted combats. Wood Elves aren't going to have much that can break the opponents ranks, so you're bound to take some casualties. Also against someone using a horde formation, you'll be able get alot more dryads into base to base.

I'm assuming that even though skirmishers will have some form of being ranked up, you'll still move them all into base to base if possible when in combat.

The usual Eternal Guard set up including Highborn with the Rhymer's Harp is more reliable and resilient, and will be tonnes more effective overall.


C-staff level 4 spellweaver and 3x dispel scrolls. - my total magic/magic defense in one little elf.

Scrolls will be unique.

bluemage
09-06-2010, 00:14
Do you really think Eternal Guard will pull their own weight in combat? The reason most people don't seem to run them now is that they 1. don't own any, and 2. strength three doesn't kill enough for a 12 point model. They're also toughness 3 and their armor is easier to reduce.

I know I'm not taking the lord and rhymer's harp into account, but you can only take one harp. Is your plan to only run one unit of them? Because I think you'll need a second block or third block. The treeman is stubborn so can hold up a unit with a nearby bsb but your other flank will be open.

Since I only own 10 eternal guard I'll be trying out large units of dryads and seeing what happens.

Witchblade
09-06-2010, 00:24
A Highborn with the Harp will be mowed down with ease due to stepping up.

bluemage
09-06-2010, 00:32
The highborn's other item is usually annoyance of nettlings, and you just challenge with him. He's also ws7 so a number of units will be hitting him on 5s. And thanks to the 25% lords, you could take a lvl 4 wizard also and try and cast bears anger on him or the 8ed equivilent.

Witchblade
09-06-2010, 00:57
No opponent worth its salt is going to send something challengeable into an eternal guard unit with a highborn. You'll get hit by a hydra, a unit of heavy cavalry, elite infantry or ogre-class units, all of which have no trouble obliterating our puny T3 5+/5++ lord. I actually have a hard time coming up with commonly seen units of equal points value to the eternal guard bunker that will lose to it.

CauCaSus
09-06-2010, 08:21
I suppose WE armies will go more towards shoot-and-avoid tactics and away from the combat armies of 7th ed. Luckily I haven't bought more than the army box, but I'd really like to use wild riders and wardancers :(

John Wayne II
09-06-2010, 11:45
I see Wild Riders' future role as breaking up small units of shooters and skirmishers. If the rumours about the new Fast Cavalry rules are true then they will be able to reach the opponents gunline much faster than they can do now.

I see the "Eternal Guard plus Rhymer's Harp" set up as being very limited. It's very expensive and you can only do it with one unit. Dryads are more resilient against most non-magical opponents, are stronger and you can run them much cheaper without support. Their I6 will come in very handy, very few units will be able to get a first strike against them (those damned High Elves nonwithstanding).

Witchblade
09-06-2010, 14:54
I suppose WE armies will go more towards shoot-and-avoid tactics and away from the combat armies of 7th ed.
I think the exact opposite will happen. Avoidance will become much harder, so I think woodies will opt for semi-gunlines.

Malorian
09-06-2010, 15:38
I think the exact opposite will happen. Avoidance will become much harder, so I think woodies will opt for semi-gunlines.

Fully ranked glade guard with treemen on the flanks...

It could work.

goodz
09-06-2010, 15:46
i agree with malorian, can probably run 24 gladegaurd, maybe jam a noble with them, and just reform into ranks when it is near time for combat. I like them more then eternal gaurd still, you get hopefully 2 turns of shooting, reform, 10-12 stand and shoot S4 shots, and then 10-12 S3 attacks in close combat.

Eternal gaurd at 6x4 it is my understanding you would get 12 attacks for your first rank, and 6 for the next two? so its a bit better but you don't get the shooting on the way up :) Either way if your in 2-3 rounds of combat your dead due to T3 and bad save... :)

Rare options:
I think i'll finally use great eagles in percent, 50 points each! Can't get 2 treemen at 2250 but can probably squeeze a small unit of way watchers, 2 eagles and 1 treeman. at 3k if you want you can fit 2 treemen and 2 eagles. I am still putting together an all elf list, although i might put in eagles, they arent trees either so most of the things i think that improved won't apply to me.


I think i am going to build my 8th list to start base around lots of glade gaurd, who will shoot shoot shoot, and rank up for combat.


I mostly am on warseer from work so i don't have my book but i am thinking about building my army 2250 around 3 large blocks of glade gaurd, 2 eagles, and a unit of 4 warhawk riders, 2 units waywatchers, mage with cstaff, and a alter noble hunter. If points allow perhaps a

3 x 25 glade gaurd - 954
w/musician, banner

4x warhawk riders 160

2x great eagles 100

3 x 5 waywatchers 360

Alter High born - 301 (I thoguht i saw posted that skirmishers could potentially march and shoot, so kinda like that the dude can move 18 inchs and shoot things?)
Alter Kindred, Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Glamorweave, Enchanted shield
Spell Singer Level 2 - 175
C-staff, dispel scroll

Leaves 200 points that basically need to be core or special, havent decided what to do with these points yet :) 87.5 points can still go in heroes, don't have my book but might see if its possible to get wizard to level 3 to make tree singing easyier. Need to see a book to really fine tune at all but the biggest change for me is a lot more GG and no wardancers, also march blocking became meh but i think ill end up takeing a unit of glade riders anyway just to bait charges and be annoying :)

willowdark
10-06-2010, 04:02
Stepping up means that Alter Kindreds as they are will become completely useless. We'll have to choose between the Helm and the Briarsheath to go with the HoDA, and since GW will be such a liability, I see the Briarsheath being the choice and my Alter will never charge in as support again. He might make a good warmachine hunter once he's fired off the Arrow.

I see the Stone and the Sword of Might being a good build for Alters, definitely as support. It will depend a lot on the list of magic items in the book.

goodz
10-06-2010, 22:14
Stepping up means that Alter Kindreds as they are will become completely useless. We'll have to choose between the Helm and the Briarsheath to go with the HoDA, and since GW will be such a liability, I see the Briarsheath being the choice and my Alter will never charge in as support again. He might make a good warmachine hunter once he's fired off the Arrow.

I see the Stone and the Sword of Might being a good build for Alters, definitely as support. It will depend a lot on the list of magic items in the book.

but you can still take your 5 shots with no armour saves allowed will marching 18 inchs and shooting, pretty hard to pin down with L10 and no march blocking... :)

willowdark
11-06-2010, 04:28
Well, you can't march and shoot, but apart from that I agree the Highborn w/ machine gun will still be very effective.

I rarely use that particular variety of Alter, opting for the hero versions for combat support. Those will be seriously hurt, but the Standard Alter will still have a place against things like fast cav or skirmishers.

goodz
11-06-2010, 16:39
I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of 30-40 eternal gaurd, with a General whom can only be hit on 6. He can survive most challenges keeping enemey carachters out of your units way, and you can take most non elite infantry down. Stubborn because general in unit, and keep your bsb near by for rerolls. Throw in a harp for 5+ wardsave and it is a decent unit... still not as good as others for cheaper:P

Kal Taron
12-06-2010, 08:23
@goodz the problem with the general in EG is that he's a very obvious target and all most armies have to do to kill him is to reject challanges. Sure, you can place one of his chars to the back but even most combat troops can smack a WE Highborn. He'll have T3, next to no armour and a 5+ inv save from the Harp. That's not very good even against good melee troops.
Or Heaven forbid you get into one of these stupid roll-off situations (Opponent has a "hit always on x+" rule) and you loose the roll...

Nocculum
13-06-2010, 10:31
Traitors and defeatists the lot of you!

Altar Kindreds should never be long charging ranks units, ever. Their targets are cavalry, war machines, small ten man missile units and lone targets such as chariots - if you've been running down ranked infantry you're opponent is playing poorly. Their effectiveness as a super fast hunter model will not change.

Wardancers, you're forgetting, can doll out 20+ attacks at STR4 on a charge and can become Toughness 7 - so that extra row of STR3 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 6's from those five meagre swordsmen even if you charge a unit to the front? Useless.

Waywatchers will still gain cover in trees, in addition to cover as skirmishers and there special rule. They will still be hard to hit.

Treekin are still overpriced!

Wildriders are +3 CR on the charge and T7 possible too!

Less doom mongering, more adaptation, we haven't survived in the woods against the Dark One and the Brettonnians for this long moaning and crying into our iced teas!

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 10:52
Nocculum - your obsesssion with T7 tells me you are definately advocating magic heavy. T5 is more realistic even with this assumption.

Which seems a necessity for the wood elves now.

If skirmishers can march and shoot, I see waywatchers or even scouts as units that are going to run and gun around hills a lot.

Generally I have to agree with the concensus that the semi gunline is the way to go, with treekin and wardancers/dryads as protection.

Couple of small (vey small!) boosts granted to magic items

Befuddlement of mischiefs will make affected enemies unable to parry since you can't parry if your stupid. Same for Dragontooth arrows. I think this could be worth it.

With mega charge distances Horn of the Asrai could disrupt a whole battleline.

Moonstone could become even better with more terrain on the table. It could also allow a supersub unit to grab objectives near a key wood at the last minute.

Merciw's locus plus potion of T makes for a nice non challenge version of the Annoyance of Netlings.

Its not much I know. But imo we don't have enough information to see how wood elves fare, as I see them as the army most likely to play the scenario rather than just kill the enemy.

Nocculum
13-06-2010, 11:38
I don't think a single level four caster is magic heavy, but I see your point. Even so, T5 war dancers are still 6's to wound for the most part, against rank and file at least.

It is far, far too early to speculate that 'Wood Elves are useless' (paraphrase) yet. We have no idea how things will pan out or if the errata will effect anything in the army. We have plenty to go on, sure, but until we've played, we can't get a feel for something.

Von Wibble
13-06-2010, 13:36
Oh, absolutely. It doesn't look great for wood elves but they were one of the strongest lists before, and the armies that are considered stronger (VC and Daemons) have also been nerfed somewhat it seems.

Until we see all the rules its a lot more difficult to comment on wood elves than most other armies.

Nocculum
13-06-2010, 13:53
Plus, Wildriders are fantastic now, how good will they be STR5 T5 5+/5++ Fear Causing?!

santso
13-06-2010, 16:19
hmm i think maybe taking 2-3 units of 20 gladeguard(two ranks of 10 elves) with musician and standard, 2 units of glade riders, some dryads or scouts, 1 unit of wild riders(ive bought the unit so i will use it...) treeman and eagle, lord will be shooting alter highborn, 1 mage and hoda carrying noble with bsb on elven steed.

getting horde rule to your archers is just fantastic when you take account that cool new shooting rule(2 ranks can shoot), enemies need to concentrate to wipe them off before he/she can do anything to your support/cc units since wast amount of longbows in each unit :D

willowdark
14-06-2010, 23:26
The first, most immediate effect of firing in two ranks is manueverability.

Nothing about the rule makes archers cost less. So, units of 10 still cost 120 pts, and units of 20 cost 240. Add in a banner and your archers become a 350 pt liability, especially with random charges covering more ground on average.

Units with a smaller frontage make lateral movements and wheel more effectively, and can hug terrain and set up redirects. Units in 2x10 will be just as cumbersome as the current lines of 10, but cost twice as much, while two units can be staggered to threaten the same targets but prevent one fast unit from taking the whole thing down in one charge.

And fighting in two ranks won't make GG better in combat, since everyone will be fighting the same way. GG poor stats and lack of equipment will hurt them just as much as ever.

Witchblade
15-06-2010, 00:16
Bigger units can serve as anvils though, which wood elves otherwise lack. As long as they maintain more ranks than the opponent, they should be able to hold (with stubborn). Against opponents without ranks (e.g. monsters, cavalry), GG become better in combat too. Plus, bigger units have a bigger deterrence effect of their stand and shoot. I definitely think 1 big unit will find its place in some lists.

willowdark
15-06-2010, 03:03
Well, assuming you can even S&S with two ranks, you'll never be Stubborn against an enemy you Stood and Shot, so that's kind of a non-starter. Though the absolute S&S banner on a big unit would be strong against a lot of other units.

At the same point cost, 12 pts each, I'd think EG would be infinitely better as an anvil since you actually can fight. Though we'll have to wait for the book and the Errata to see how EG weapons will work with fighting in ranks. They technically have spears and shields though not strictly modeled that way.

I don't totally disagree with the large 20-elf archer unit, I just don't think it will be good in combat anymore than they currently are.

Kal Taron
15-06-2010, 09:22
It will be interesting to see whether you go 10 or 20 elf archers. It's probably a matter of taste because both have their advantages and my guess is that many people will use a compromise like 12 or 14 GG.

The 10-elf units are more maneouverable and compact and you can have more of them which gives you a larger flexibility. They are also less vulnerable to templates although they still hurt big time. The 20-elf units can pump out more shots at a single time which is esp. good for S&S (provided that you may S&S with the additional ranks) and they are are more resilient to panic and have a chance to defeat weak units in combat. That chance isn't very good though and they cost quite a penny.

Personally I'll probably not go with 20-elf units or 1 at most and mainly 10 or 12 elf ones.

Poseidal
15-06-2010, 09:44
The main way I'm thinking of going is heavy Treekin supprted by shooting and Treemen.

Wild Riders and Wardancers seem to take a huge hit, which is a shame as Wardancers are one of my favourite units in the game.

Ikhoornix
15-06-2010, 10:53
Did anyone actually confirm or verify whether Fast Cavalry still do not get ranks?
With all the changes (normal units moving almost like Fast Cav) and neccesity for ranks, I can imagine that Fast Cav got buffed in some way.

I guess we'll need to see when the Big Bad Book comes out

willowdark
15-06-2010, 11:10
I don't think Fast Cav will get a rank, but I tend to think, or at least hope, that WR will have the Fast Cav rule taken away, and therefore get a rank bonus. I don't really think they need to be fast cav since they're ItP, so I think this would be the best way to keep them effective.

I agree with Poseidal that TKin will be very good in 8th. They're still expensive, but if you're running 4 right now it will only be a small price for a fifth and can run 3-wide with 2 in the back and have 5 models attacking with only a 3 model frontage. That's a lot of damage output while actually benefiting from better maneuverability. I'll probably drop my TMan altogether though to come up with the points for 2 units of 5.

It will take a few games I'm sure to figure out if 2x5 TKin is better than 5 TKin and a TMan, but if WR and WD get hit hard enough I'm sure I'll have plenty of points to go around.

Witchblade
15-06-2010, 16:25
Well, assuming you can even S&S with two ranks, you'll never be Stubborn against an enemy you Stood and Shot, so that's kind of a non-starter.
I don't see how this is the case. Could you elaborate? The way I see it, a musician allows a free reform (on a successful ld check) in the turn before the GG bunker probably will get charged and WE don't suffer any penalties for moving and shooting. The Salvo rule allows a significant part of the unit to shoot and S&S for another turn.


At the same point cost, 12 pts each, I'd think EG would be infinitely better as an anvil since you actually can fight. Though we'll have to wait for the book and the Errata to see how EG weapons will work with fighting in ranks. They technically have spears and shields though not strictly modeled that way.
Definitely, but they of course cannot shoot and the only purpose of the GG is to survive and hold for a round so that back-up (in the flanks) can arrive.

willowdark
15-06-2010, 17:05
We aren't even close to clear if Salvo will work on a S&S. I'd assume it wouldn't. So even if you can fire in 2 ranks on a S&S, which I'm not sure you can since S&S should be a limiting condition, you're still only making 10 shots when in 5x4 formation, which isn't any better than they currently are.

And 4-ranked units probably won't be Stubborn very often since most cheaper infantry will be 5 or 6 ranks deep.

Doesn't the rumour stipulate ranks as determined after attacks for Stubborn? If so, GG will lose ranks as quickly as they'll drop them with a S&S. There are just too many reasons to assume GG won't be Stubborn to really assume they ever will.

Their initiative is good but their other Stats are terrible and they have no equipment. Anything with 2 attacks or Spears will eat them alive, especially since those troops are commonly cheaper because they don't have a shooting attack so will come in with more ranks.

EG rules amount to 2 attacks from the front and spears from the next ranks. That should equate to 2 attacks from the front then 2 ranks of Spears behind, for 20 attacks at I5 instead of 10 Attacks at I4 from GG. EG will be very good in 8th as a combat unit, while a big unit of GG will probably get 1 or 2 rounds of shooting before becoming a huge liability.

I could see a large unit on a flank being a powerful missile base, but if the enemy sends more than one unit after it it won't survive the game, assuming you can only S&S against one charger like now.

It really boils down to Salvo on a S&S. I just don't see it being an option.

Warboss Doink
15-06-2010, 17:06
I Love my WE... but against my VC friend... I'm toast.

He fields two 100 model (10 by 10) zombie units in 2000 points. With the loss of preemptive enemy removal by killing models in BtB and the 30 zombie attack retalliation, my only way to beat these units, is to never make any contact with them... :S

Guess my lord is going to be a treeman ancient now....

innerwolf
15-06-2010, 17:06
Plus, Wildriders are fantastic now, how good will they be STR5 T5 5+/5++ Fear Causing?!

You are in denial. Any cavalry in the game will be able to get STR5 T5, with usual 1+/2+ save and the ability to negate ranks. You get the spells, the other player also does.

Wildriders have been hugely nerfed.

Demandrer
15-06-2010, 22:24
Hi, Ive read most of the articles on here regarding WE and also on Asrai etc. Been eagerly waiting the release and prerelease of 8th Ed to start collecting a force. I popped in this morning to my local store and pre ordered a copy. I also was allowed to quickly browse a the stores copy.

The below concerns me a hell of alot with regards to WE wanted your thoughts and advise:

1. Skirmish rules- LOS is no longer 360. And units have to kind of form up and wheel etc.
2. Whenever any models enter a wood even in deployment you roll a D6 to determine what kind of wood. Most of the options are highly negative like suffer from stupidity or take D6 s4 hits etc.Guessing this will be updated in our errata to say it doesnt effect us?
3.You can shoot into woods and cast into them:(
4. Worst of all. Infantry models can freely march through woods with no penalty!!!!!!

The above concerns me greatly as a very eager wood elf player as we seem to lose a few advantages we had. Yes combat is on initiative order which is good but these are very negative to me?

Advise please???

Smithpod68
16-06-2010, 01:38
I think something to take into account is the increase in terrain. WE's are far more maneuverable than most. Plus,TLoS will be key with all that terrain so it won't turn into a 40k stand and shoot between two "shooty" armies. Don't forget the objectives as well. As long as they score you significant points in a battle,that may be how WE's win the games. I'm optimistic . I want to read the RB and truly see what skirmishers do.

Poseidal
16-06-2010, 08:05
Everyone is getting more manouvreble so the advantage of Wood Leves is distilled.

All the skirmish changes serve only to hurt a lot of the army.

The only ones who really benefit are:

Glade Guard - but you cannot win with only Glade Guard
Wizard Lords - thanks to new strong beast and life lore but you can't make an army of them.
Eternal Guard - who also suffer due to bad saves from stepping up as much as they are benefitted, and are still only an expensive S3 model.
Tree Kin - All ogre sized gain ranking in 3s, stomp attacks, and full attacks fighting in ranks

Of these Treekin benefit the most, especially with natural S5 stomp granting in effect another attack (maybe better as it might autohit)

Kal Taron
16-06-2010, 10:22
Treeman and Treeman Ancient are also doing quite well IMO. Their biggest problem ist that they are at very high risk against some armies (*cough* Dwarves *cough*) and game dominating against other (Beasts).
Great Eagles usability depends highly on how available they are because they get hugely better if you take 2+ and if there are no more slot restrictions it doesn't matter that we only get one per rare choice.

8th looks bleak so far for our skirmishers, light cav and glass cannons. Which are the most interesting parts of our army IMO.
Not sure how Warhawk Riders will fare. Not better than now I guess so they are still only marginally useful in a niche and very expensive...

overlordofnobodies
16-06-2010, 10:55
Treeman and Treeman Ancient are doing quite well but there all so some bad thing. As in the magic items in 8th let any army have fire because of the Banner der Ewigen Flamme=Unit causes fire attacks and rubyring of destruction =Bound spell (energy level 3) Fireball. Plus I have heard that all of the N in the wound chart are being replace with 6.

tuku
16-06-2010, 11:04
i like the MSU way of battling with wood elves. the new rules are still not clear ( because i didn't read the book but posts in the forum ) but imo i won't be playing MSU any more.

new charging and marching rules will imncrease glade rider's efficiency of break enemy line.

i agree that treekins are expensive and ugly and i have never played with that unit before. but probably i should get to know it better.

Poseidal
16-06-2010, 11:04
The Treeman toughness isn't high enough to negate anything higher than S2 currently anyway so that doesn't change.

Treeman gains a big stomp but loses a bit indirectly to thugs like infantry getting more attacks against him and more common (possibly) flaming attacks.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 11:16
For Warhawks, the biggest issue is march-blocking, which they've previously been immune to. Even though march-blocking in general is more difficult, especially against Ld8, they won't have the movement superiority quite like they've had up until now.

Units with larger frontages combined with supportive attacks means that even with Hit and Run mage hunting will be a huge liability, with WH taking a lot more wounds for their trouble than before.

18 pts for Wardancers was only really acceptable when the sheer damage output could be relied on to reduce attacks back. I think they are way too expensive in 8th, especially when trying to make room for TKin. Unless the Errata actually reduces their cost I don't think I'll be bringing them out. I also see the Spellweaver being my priority Lord over the Wardancer that I've grown to love.

The big irony is that WE will likely be most effective with heavy magic builds supported by shooting rather than shooting builds supported by combat.

Poseidal
16-06-2010, 11:36
I'll probably have 2 naked level 4s with life and beasts respectively, shotig support heroes and a BSB.

That's a question: how will I run a BSB now? Wardancers are a poor option, there are no other units of non tree spirits I really want near combat.

Maybe the eagle BSB makes an entrance?

willowdark
16-06-2010, 12:05
If combined profiles is true, a Eagle rider will be a single model with T3 and 3W, with the SotCM. No more chance of loosing your mount, but slightly more likely to actually die to that shooting. All in all, I'd say the Eagle is a very good option for a BSB.

Also, the +3 toughness item in the new common list might be a powerful insurance policy for a turn when you expect to be exposed to shooting. At 20 pts it would fit comfortably with the SotCM.

Poseidal
16-06-2010, 14:44
I must have missed that rumour. Is that applied to dragon riders too?

Crazy!

But it may be the way to go, like a Disc BSB.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 14:47
In the sticky there's a link to Ulthuan.net where a list of common magic items have been posted. GSF didn't want to cut and paste it.

Demandrer
16-06-2010, 21:08
And thoughts on how infantry blocks marching `freely` through woods will affect wood elves??

Witchblade
17-06-2010, 02:09
And thoughts on how infantry blocks marching `freely` through woods will affect wood elves??
Yes, it will screw us over. :p

Demandrer
17-06-2010, 08:24
Aye thats what i thought and was afraid of. No where to hide and hardly anything that slows them down now:(

rolly_321
17-06-2010, 12:20
I think the Woodies may have a new few new tricks up their sleve with the new of Lore of Beasts.

You can potencially get a Treeman Anchient: T10, with 9 S10 attacks + d6 stomp attacks (also S10 i think), stubborn, only hit on 6s in challange, plus a few other sprites for good messure. Would be difficult to get all that magic in but Mr Anchient is about to get his bling on.

Same goes for EG and Treekin, a sub-par to decent unite just became real nasty!

Im seeing Woodies taking a big turn around in 8th ed, it wont be the lonley scroll caddy anymore.

bluemage
17-06-2010, 19:45
If you take a treeman ancient, you won't have the point to take a spellweaver. Everyone seems very keen to pin all of their hopes on the new lore of life and beasts. Magic will help, but everyone else will get magic also. The working list I can see is a spellweaver, bsb, glade guard, drayds and lots of treekin. The problem is buying all those treekin, they're ugly, expensive models.

I don't know why everyone seems to be getting excited about eternal guard. They were bad, over-priced S3 models before, and they still are now. A unit of 20 eternal guard 5-wide will put out 20 S3 attacks, and cost 240 points. A unit of 20 high elf spearmen, 5-wide will also put of 20 S3 attacks and cost 180 points. And the high elf spearmen aren't that great at combat.

innerwolf
17-06-2010, 20:09
Protip (jocking ^^): to get cheap(ish) Treekin, buy plastic River trolls, add dryad branches and further convert them. Profit( in game terms).

Dryads are still cheap for what they do(I6 means a lot now), but without static combat resolution all they had was choosing carefully her fights. New skirmishing rules screwed it.

Irish_Icicle
17-06-2010, 21:15
War Hawks are still viable. They actually receive a -1 to hit penalty when shooting at them as flying calvary now gains the skirmish rule (I didn't think to see how this interacts with terrain for them). Supporting ranks doesn't work with flank and rear attacks so they're just as survivable in combat as before. The riders on hawks in the second "rank" gets their attacks now as well meaning they can do more damage and take less in return be for they 'hit-and-run'.

A few things that'll hurt them is TLoS, they can be marchblocked and it being not as easy to marchblock enemy units. They have a decent LD so they can still march roughly half of the time, but they can still fly 10 inches over a unit if blocked.

Something that i've been pondering is that marchblocking may potentially disrupt enemy lines even more. In 7th say three units are marched blocked. OK, they only move 4 inches. Now in 8th take the same three units, 2 pass their LD, 1 fails. What does your opponent do now? move 2 of the units 8 inches leaving one lagging behind? or move them all just 4 inches? Also if they test for marchblocking and fail, they still count as marching even if they don't move.

Demandrer
17-06-2010, 21:27
I agree everyone is saying that magic for life and beasts is excellent for us but the whole magic system now has changed 12 power dice is the max we can have and its easier to get dispel dice. In that in 7ed we could go focussed on magic and have like 16+ power dice and peeps would often have 6 dispel dice in combat armies now its max of 12 with most peeps having 6 dispel easily.
And even in 3k fights and bigger it will still be max of 12. Magic is going the same way as psychic abilities in 40k useful but not game winning again add this with the lethal miscasts now;(

Witchblade
17-06-2010, 23:39
Well, we do have that item that lets us reroll a single power/dispel die in the game. That's pretty good, if it helps you escape a miscast.

duffybear1988
18-06-2010, 14:56
I think the FAQ will give the WE the benefits they are currently lacking in the basic rules for 8th ed. Maybe the woodies will get bonuses for being in woods or maybe ignore the negatives of the specific types of woods/forests that we are going to see. Also if there is more terrain about then that hopefully means more woods etc + the standard WE free wood.

Heck I might even consider making a tree-tower to represent the pocket watchtower magic item.

Currently I can't decide whether to continue with Empire or switch to WE.

Red Metal
18-06-2010, 15:17
Currently I can't decide whether to continue with Empire or switch to WE.

Switch to Wood Elves. We have girls...;)

willowdark
18-06-2010, 16:32
Dryads in bigger units? I'm thinking at least 10 or possibly 12, that way they get 20-24 attacks at high initiative.

Discuss.

Also, I think with Slots going away and 50% being the only restriction on Specials, Wardancers spammed in units of minimum 5's will be cheap enough to throw into combats to pad kills with 15 st4 attacks at I6, then "oh well" when attacks back kill a few.

Edit: Fast Cav, especially Wild Riders, get a rank bonus now. Wild Riders continue to break ranks.

Zaszz
18-06-2010, 16:45
Personally I think a unit of EG with a BSB, 2 units of 6 tree kin, a treeman, 2 lvl 4's with life and beasts, and the rest spent on GG seems like it will be decent. Youll have good buff magic, probably the ability to restore wounds on your trees and EG, along with some shooting to thin the enemy so your combat units can do their job to mop up. With the new magic items available also you can put EXCELLENT defense on your BSB, or combat characters.

Optional things to try out ,Wild Riders going super fast to wipe out dangerous war machines and ranged units, and then always try the hawks or the dragon for dealing with the same.

WE do seem to lose their place near the top tier, but I think they will find with Treekin, new magic items, and improved magic, that you can be average power level for an army.

willowdark
18-06-2010, 17:01
Raising EG with Lore of Life is an excellent point! I think that could make a relatively small unit, like 20 compared to many others, stand up strong against big units.

But we certainly won't be the only ones doing it. High Elves, Empire and Lizards will all have that option. LM in particualr will get the most out of that when raising Saurus w/ higher toughness and better armour.

lelandchaska
18-06-2010, 17:05
Personally I think a unit of EG with a BSB, 2 units of 6 tree kin, a treeman, 2 lvl 4's with life and beasts, and the rest spent on GG seems like it will be decent. Youll have good buff magic, probably the ability to restore wounds on your trees and EG, along with some shooting to thin the enemy so your combat units can do their job to mop up. With the new magic items available also you can put EXCELLENT defense on your BSB, or combat characters.

Optional things to try out ,Wild Riders going super fast to wipe out dangerous war machines and ranged units, and then always try the hawks or the dragon for dealing with the same.

WE do seem to lose their place near the top tier, but I think they will find with Treekin, new magic items, and improved magic, that you can be average power level for an army.


I completely agree with the list you are talking about. I think that putting the Zenith banner (the enemies within 12" may not march one) on the Wild Riders will become a staple also. Unless, of course, they errata the banner and give enemies a leadership role against it.

innerwolf
18-06-2010, 18:17
Edit: Fast Cav, especially Wild Riders, get a rank bonus now. Wild Riders continue to break ranks.

But you need 10 expensive, fragile Wild Riders to do it. If you lose only 1 to shooting you are no longer able to break ranks. Pretty bad deal compared with 7th edition "3 wild riders break ranks".

On another note, as it is now it seems like Treesinging has become nearly useless. In 7th, you could sing a forest in front of an enemy block and delay his advance. Now, the best it can do is trigger one of those non-sense effects which are generated at random.

lelandchaska
18-06-2010, 18:32
But you need 10 expensive, fragile Wild Riders to do it. If you lose only 1 to shooting you are no longer able to break ranks. Pretty bad deal compared with 7th edition "3 wild riders break ranks".

On another note, as it is now it seems like Treesinging has become nearly useless. In 7th, you could sing a forest in front of an enemy block and delay his advance. Now, the best it can do is trigger one of those non-sense effects which are generated at random.

As to the Treesinging, do not forget about the alternative use, that is, d6 S5 hits on any unit partially or wholly within a wood. That version of the spell has no line of sight or distance limitations, so frankly, if you are able to cast the spell multiple times, then it is to your advantage to have them in the woods. Of course, the counter to my argument is that any player worth his salt will make sure he doesn't end his movement in the trees.

innerwolf
18-06-2010, 18:57
As to the Treesinging, do not forget about the alternative use, that is, d6 S5 hits on any unit partially or wholly within a wood. That version of the spell has no line of sight or distance limitations, so frankly, if you are able to cast the spell multiple times, then it is to your advantage to have them in the woods. Of course, the counter to my argument is that any player worth his salt will make sure he doesn't end his movement in the trees.

But you are true, there is still an use for Treesinging(even when it always was a minor one compared to moving woods).

I managed a big victory against my nemesis(Vampire Counts) in 7th thanks to treesinging a forest across the board into his face, dividing his line on two. I fear that has been lost for WE( and they really needed it).

CauCaSus
19-06-2010, 12:32
Remember, enemy units are going to spend more time in terrain now than in 7th, so the damage-dealing version of tree singing can be used more often.

Edit: also, for those bemoaning the nerf of wardancers, I think small units of 5 w/mus is going to be used more often. You can have three and still have plenty of room for more specials in 2000 pts. They can charge in, kill a lot of models and then probably die or be run down, but choose the right target and it could be worth it.

KB still works from the second rank and ASF will highly likely give you a re-roll to hit. If you flank-charge and the enemy has EG or treekin at the front you might even get to attack a second round

innerwolf
19-06-2010, 16:04
The only problem is the forest moving part of the spell needs the damage dealing part of the spell to be any useful. If you can't at least cast two succesful (undispelled) Treesingings it won't do nothing.
I hope the Faq will bring some kind of change to Treesinging.

goodz
20-06-2010, 05:38
Wand of wych elm essentially gives us the best magic defense in the game. Spellweaver with that and either defensive items or a scroll and she can do some serious damage control, well dishing out some of her own!.

I think a nice build probably consists of a lot of glade gaurd, a large unit of tree kin, a treeman and 2-3 eagles. Everything else seems sad

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-06-2010, 22:12
Wardancers although nerfed, like others have stated can do some decent damage in small units. I would run 2-3 units of 5 truck them into a big block of troops with a charcter(s) -use KB dance- and challenge with our champ kb their charcter and have Tree Kin (which would be lined up for a flank charge or counter charge after they overun the WD) charge the next turn. The WD would net you rouhgly 25 V.P for the charcter kill and widdle down the unit for the Tree Kin to finish off.

I also love the idea (alothough statisticaly unlikely) having say a Highborn in a unit of Waywatchers and thus giving him hte KB ability and him being able TO SHOOT DOWN A GIANT, CHAOS LORD, BSB MANTICORE DE, other large/heroic/monsterous things.

Don't be suprised if they FAQ Drayads and or Wardancers to make them RnF it would just make them viable agiain and they wouldn't be changing any point vaules in doing so like "rumored." They could even give WD the ability to take a standard (not changing points just adding :D) which would make practically every unit in the WE army viable except for Riders, which really never have been. :/

I do find a Weaver with the C-staff absolute money though, perhaps one of the best 3 magic items in the 8th now next to a FAQ Ring of Hotek and Black Tongue. I will definitly be sporting him in many, many games now.

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 22:25
I've been doing a bit of brainstorming r.e character set-ups and options. Firstly, I'm not in the Treekin camp - they have never been worthwhile, and I'm determined to stick to the fact that they never will be.

Wildrider Kindred -

1. Scout move in effect. 12" march before the game begins, and most likely errated to ignore 'bad' effects of woods. This means we can start with one of the heaviest hitting fast cavalry units in the game half way across the board in heavy cover! TLOS means we can charge from woods, I would assume, and even with random ranges that's a massive threat off the bat.

2. Charging, + Fear, + Banner, likely to get off flank charges and removing parry bonuses in the flank means this unit went from very effective flank breaker to very effective if they hit. They're relatively cheap at 19oish for 5 with Warbanner, so a larger unit with more attacks and rank breaking seems to work.

3. ARMOURED Wild Rider Heroes...2+/4+ with 4-5 STR 5 attacks :D

The 'Choir'

1. Level 1 cheap spellsingers, a small group of 3-4 working together. Treesinging is now more available, meaning we can move the woods more and cause damage to other units hiding in them.

2. This leads to a much more tactical game for Wood Elves. Terrain tricks, objective grabbing, or more fun, objective moving and drawing opponents into woods is even more deadlier than ever before, with more woods to boot!

This all depends on wherever or not Treesinging is considered the 'default spell' for spell generation, of course.

Jericho
20-06-2010, 23:01
I think Treekin are plenty good, personally... they did big time damage and were one of the only things in the army to soak return attacks well. I used to stick a Unicorn riding mage in with them once in a while for the MR2 if the other guy had any fire magic to throw at them. Just bail before they get into combat and you're good :D

I'm not sure which new magic armors were classed as light armor, but I think there were a couple so maybe there will be a new build in there for Wild Riders. It does suck that they can only take magic spears and magic light armors, so they don't get full access to those new common magic item types. The new talismans/enchanted items could be good though, and the ability to take some solid ward saves (that aren't conditional!!) will be great. I would have killed for a straight up 4++ in 7th.

macattack428
21-06-2010, 01:51
ok, what am i missing about the c-staff... why is everyone in love with it now?..

Jericho
21-06-2010, 03:32
Probably because of more power dice for minimal investment in magic, and wizards getting a + to their casting rolls equal to their wizard level. Natural 1-2 apparently still fails, but still pretty decent for spamming.

Poseidal
21-06-2010, 06:28
Why only light armour available to them?

Skarsgard
21-06-2010, 09:11
Will woodelves get access to some of the better armour available under common items or are they still restricted to light armour equivalents?

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 11:27
One would assume that they are restricted by type, as per their army book/kindred rulings. If an item is specified as Heavy Armour under it's description, then it'll not be available for Wild Riders etc.

We still have a solid 4+ ward now!

Kal Taron
21-06-2010, 23:11
Why only light armour available to them?

Because Wild Rider kindred may only take Light Armour and Spears. No other magic weapons/armour are allowed for them.

Coyote81
22-06-2010, 00:31
So what do you think about the cheap Divination Orb with the much higher casting cost spells.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
22-06-2010, 17:43
So what do you think about the cheap Divination Orb with the much higher casting cost spells.

It's possible that it will be come good, but somewhat conditional. A level 3 or 4 would still only need 3 dice to cast everything but the most powerful of spells and the risks of using lots of dice (IF, scrolls, etc) would mean that they would be cautious about using 4 or more. I seems (at least to me)that whether or not the orb becomes effective will depend mostly on what people do with their lower level wizards.

If players start taking only low level wizards or doing things like taking a few level 1 wizards with the lore of fire just to through 4-6 dice at the powered up fireball (suicide casting I calls it) then the orb may be worth it.

If players want to save their dice for their higher level casters and rarely use their lower level wizards then the orb may potenially not generate a single dispel dice in most games.

RanaldLoec
22-06-2010, 21:33
Switch to Wood Elves. We have girls...;)

Even better do both empire and woodies yeah

Demandrer
30-06-2010, 08:21
Has anyone had any games with wood elves in 8th ED????

SkawtheFalconer
30-06-2010, 08:49
The guy who wrote the 8th Ed book, Mat Ward, said in the latest UK WD that it was a good time to be a Wood Elf player. His main logic for that was that Eternal Guard, Treekin, and Glade Guard got better. Personally, Im not sure I buy into his logic, and I feel that the choice of him to describe the Wood Elf army in 8th (a number of other armies were covered by different writers) was a political one, designed to give us false hope! :P

Poseidal
30-06-2010, 09:56
Especially as he didn't mention Dryads, Glade Riders, Wild Riders, Nobles, Highborns, Wardancers, Waywatchers get worse.

Would 2 level 4s (one going beasts, other life) be the way to go now? Will here be enough power dice for the two of them?

Nocculum
30-06-2010, 10:12
Will there be enough points for them I think you'd want to ask. That's near 500 on their own, without upgrading their magic levels and without a single magic item.

All we have to do with skirmishers is point them in the right direction, the loss of 360 and the altered formation was a welcome change to prevent he ass-hattery that was forever ongoing and the immensely difficult charges to resolve against some skirmishing units and tactics evolving from slingshotting.

They don't lose any of their combat effectiveness except for lack of 'threat' re their whole charge arc.

They still hit hard - it is a power balance that will take some getting use to, but it isn't a complete writing off of Dryads or Wardancers.

They'll still need 4's (or 5's) to hit and 6's to wound if you set up right.

Zaszz
30-06-2010, 14:34
Is there some rule somewhere that says if a Character only has light armor as an option on his profile, and doesn't have heavy armor, that he cannot buy a suit of magic heavy armor? As far as I was aware there was no such rule. I thought if you could wear armor of any kind you were able to take any magic armor item, within the restriction on points limits and only 1 magic armor obviously.

Poseidal
30-06-2010, 14:55
It's a Wild Rider specific rule. The kindred entry says magical light armour only.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
30-06-2010, 17:34
Especially as he didn't mention Dryads, Glade Riders, Wild Riders, Nobles, Highborns, Wardancers, Waywatchers get worse.

Would 2 level 4s (one going beasts, other life) be the way to go now? Will here be enough power dice for the two of them?

I've tried 2 level 3's and I run short on dice quickly.

Life and beasts are nice Lores but tricky.

With Life you have a strong chance of getting spells that are useless in a given situation: e.g. the signature spell is great but it can only target the wizard and the wizards unit so you can't put it where you need it. And the ability to restore wounds to monsters and characters is only useful after those units start taking wounds and only if they last until your next magic phase.

Beasts is better because of the incredible usefulness of the signature spell, but the fact we need a Spellweaver just to use it kind of hurts big-time.

There is also the more immediate issue of "where to put these expensive wizards?" A unit of Eternal Guard is no Pheonix Guard bunker, An the rest of our options range from: "can't join the unit" to "won't get a look-out sir" to "the unit can get wiped out with a single round of shooting/magic".

On a different note, I've been looking at under used items like the Callach's Claw which might see more use to try and break stubborn units.

willowdark
01-07-2010, 15:15
I think 2 Lvl3's should both take Life, that way you're better off getting the spells you want and can do more to make sure the right ones get through.

Lion El Jason
01-07-2010, 16:42
The guy who wrote the 8th Ed book, Mat Ward, said in the latest UK WD that it was a good time to be a Wood Elf player.

None of his predictions for 8th are true.
He also claimed the magic changes would make it easier to take no wizards, the opposite is true: Its more important to take wizards and more important that they are high level.

I'm expecting WE are high up on the list for new books but it seems nobody around here wants to play warhammer once 8th comes out so I can't get games to see how true all this stuff is.

Chaos Undecided
01-07-2010, 17:20
I think Alessio was fairly accurate when he said to take at most 6 levels of casters, unless you're looking to be able to spam channeling to max your dice or have access to casters like Necromancers when you can happily risk single dice casts on spells.

Nocculum
01-07-2010, 18:17
Ermm...

We get D6 dispel dice for free now...

We can, by all means, run no wizards and still rebuke 2-3 spells on a smaller scale and 1-2 larger spells.

Witchblade
01-07-2010, 20:45
Ermm...

We get D6 dispel dice for free now...

We can, by all means, run no wizards and still rebuke 2-3 spells on a smaller scale and 1-2 larger spells.
Eh? The opponent probably has +4 to cast and you have +0 to dispel, not to mention magic boosting items. 2d6 PD, frequently the minimum amount of dice used to cast a spell, give an average result of 11, requiring 4 of your DD to dispel it with a decent chance of success. Even if you have dice left after that, you won't have enough to dispel another spell.

So, no, you won't be able to rebuke 1-2 larger spells: you will be able to rebuke 1 small spell.

The_Bureaucrat
02-07-2010, 01:42
Eh? The opponent probably has +4 to cast and you have +0 to dispel, not to mention magic boosting items. 2d6 PD, frequently the minimum amount of dice used to cast a spell, give an average result of 11, requiring 4 of your DD to dispel it with a decent chance of success. Even if you have dice left after that, you won't have enough to dispel another spell.

So, no, you won't be able to rebuke 1-2 larger spells: you will be able to rebuke 1 small spell.

+4 to cast is not standard by any means and averages don't mean anything in this system (low rolls require less dice much less and high rolls may not worth the dice dispelling) but if they did a 50% chance with 3 dice isn't bad.

That being said Lore of Life seems excellent and It seems almost foolish to not leave home without a mage as you are wasting all those free power dice.

Nocculum
02-07-2010, 07:41
I can certainly see Wood Elf lists with only level 1 Branchwraith's working - a Cluster of Radiants and Channelling on 2-3 Branchwraiths with +1 to dispel rolls until you fail will start to muster a decent defence.

Odin
02-07-2010, 12:48
The guy who wrote the 8th Ed book, Mat Ward, said in the latest UK WD that it was a good time to be a Wood Elf player. His main logic for that was that Eternal Guard, Treekin, and Glade Guard got better. Personally, Im not sure I buy into his logic, and I feel that the choice of him to describe the Wood Elf army in 8th (a number of other armies were covered by different writers) was a political one, designed to give us false hope! :P

And actually, eternal guard get worse, as they only get an additional 33% attacks, while most of their opponents will be able to fight back regardless of how many wounds they cause.

Units of 20-30 Glade Guard will be awesome now though, as will the Tree-Kin. Everything else pretty much sucks.

Chicago Slim
02-07-2010, 13:25
Eternal gaurd at 6x4 it is my understanding you would get 12 attacks for your first rank, and 6 for the next two? so its a bit better (than 6x4 Glade Guard) but you don't get the shooting on the way up :)

If by "a bit better" you mean "twice as many attacks, at WS5 instead of WS4", then yes.

Ranked up Eternal Guard will rip through most hordes. Consider one of the higher-end horde options-- say, Ungors: 6-wide EG go first with 24 attacks, expecting 16 hits and 8 wounds, all kills. Ungors strike back with 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 kills. Unless there's a fifth rank of Ungors, they're now rolling for snake-eyes... Yes, Ungors are 4 ppm, one-third the cost of the Eternal Guard, but my point is that EG are horde-breakers: they take minimal damage in utterly obliterating even a pretty decent horde (also, the total points cost of 40 Ungors-- 160 plus command-- is a significant chunk of the total points cost of 24 EG-- 288 plus command-- so again, you're apply more points, and getting a very likely utter crushing victory with minimal losses).

It'd be a different story against 6-ppm human spearmen in a 10x4 horde: EG start with 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, maybe some saves (call it 6 kills). Come-backs are 30 attacks, 15 hits, call it 8 wounds, 5 kills. Too slim a margin to grind down-- but then, a 6-ppm horde at 10x4 is 240 points plus command-- too big a fish to fry without some additional support. The Wood Elf player is going to need to know what his EG are capable of, and to pick his targets accordingly. Fortunately, he has the Mv score (and the shooting to soften up targets or force opponents into fights they don't want) and the big scary monsters (to force opponents into fights they don't want) to allow them to manuever.

Oh-- quick question: does the entire frontage of a unit fight now, or does a model get to fight only if in BTB (or behind a model that's in BTB), still? In the latter case, reduce the horde's strike-backs by 20% in each case above... :)


Either way if your in 2-3 rounds of combat your dead due to T3 and bad save... :)

I won't argue that-- but if you're correctly applying your EG to the targets they want to fight (hordes, skirmishers, even fast cavalry), you won't ever get to a third round of combat.

Wood Elves have never been a point-and-click army, and they still aren't. As in 7th ed, they'll win or lose in the movement phase.

Odin
02-07-2010, 13:32
Oh-- quick question: does the entire frontage of a unit fight now, or does a model get to fight only if in BTB (or behind a model that's in BTB), still? In the latter case, reduce the horde's strike-backs by 20% in each case above... :)


You strike at full effect if you're in base contact, and you get supporting attacks if you're behind a model in base contact.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
03-07-2010, 22:34
Ranked up Eternal Guard will rip through most hordes. Consider one of the higher-end horde options-- say, Ungors: 6-wide EG go first with 24 attacks, expecting 16 hits and 8 wounds, all kills. Ungors strike back with 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 kills. Unless there's a fifth rank of Ungors, they're now rolling for snake-eyes... Yes, Ungors are 4 ppm, one-third the cost of the Eternal Guard, but my point is that EG are horde-breakers: they take minimal damage in utterly obliterating even a pretty decent horde (also, the total points cost of 40 Ungors-- 160 plus command-- is a significant chunk of the total points cost of 24 EG-- 288 plus command-- so again, you're apply more points, and getting a very likely utter crushing victory with minimal losses).


I'd like to see the math on this one. With 6 wide EG, 24 attacks are correct but ungors come stock with shields so those 8 wounds go down to 7. And 20 attacks from the Ungors...I'm not sure where your getting that since a 10 wide horde with spears get 8 in the first rank (because their the same base size) with 8s in each successive rank for a total of 32. Not sure where you got 20; actually even if there were so few ungors that 8 wounds would start to reduce their total attacks back (down to eactly 20) that would be a pretty random amount of ungors.

So 32 attacks (assuming no primal fury) goes to 16 hits, 8 wounds, and about 5 wounds through.

but for arguements sake let us assume the unit makes the ~45% chance primal fury role on their Ld 6.

So 32 attacks with hatred, goes to about 28 hits, 14 wounds, and about 9 should go through

So (statistically) against a horde of Ungors victory or defeat by 2 can depend on the primal fury roll.

lelandchaska
04-07-2010, 04:03
One thing I have learned quickly about playing with hordes, and in the case thinking of my horde of 40 Eternal Guards, is that your opponent gets to pick who fights your horde. The horde is so unwieldy, that you cannot chase down cavalry or a small infantry unit. And if you are across the battlefield from a horde that you will beat, the opponent will avoid engaging. So even Bretonnia can smash a wood elf horde, charging with Grail Knights and likely routing the unit in one turn (unless they are stubborn, but who wants a highborne or noble in the front rank anymore).

Coyote81
04-07-2010, 16:36
So I've been seriously looking at using Orion in a competitive 3k army based around dryards which I think still hold promise. Especially lead by a combat character.

Lion El Jason
04-07-2010, 17:03
Ermm...

We get D6 dispel dice for free now...

We can, by all means, run no wizards and still rebuke 2-3 spells on a smaller scale and 1-2 larger spells.

No, thats just GWs propaganda. If you actually play (Or just run the numbers) you'll see that having no wizards often gives you one decent dispell where your opponent can cast spells with 1-2 dice. You get hammered.



+4 to cast is not standard by any means and averages don't mean anything in this system (low rolls require less dice much less and high rolls may not worth the dice dispelling) but if they did a 50% chance with 3 dice isn't bad.

Not standard yet. The new magic system pushes players towards not only needing a wizard but wanting higher level ones. Even with +3 it still means you'll be horrendously out matched in the magic phase.
In no world has it ever been worth wasting 3DDs on a 50% chance. You'd roll 4 dice or not bother in 90% of cases.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 17:28
You dont' see level 3/4 wizards until 2,250 or 2,500 bare minimum, we tend to play 1,500-2,000 more often than not, and in big games, chances are I'll have a level 4 myself...the point was, the amount of magic defence you need now to still buff aside the spells you could dispel anyway (if they roll 19+ chances are you won't get to dispel it anyway...) is considerably less.

To the extent that it's not an automatic 'oh crud, no scroll caddy, autoloss!'

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 19:02
I just feel really bad for Treeman or Treekin having to face Dwarves.

Magical and Flaming cannons that deal D6 wounds is pretty much a dead Tree every turn.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 21:29
Has anyone considered using Lore of Beasts, and not Lore of Life?

The Signature spell is the crux of the argument, and in itself it's not effective, but when considering units such as Dryads and Wardancers, which can be argued don't have enough impact now, suddenly it's vicious.

A Dryad would be Toughness 5, with STR5 under the effect of the spell.

A Wardancer would be Toughness 4, with STR4 or 5 during a charge and the potential for 3 WS6 attacks or 2 and 4+ ward or ASF.

The other spells are situational, or allow character boosts and Altar Nobles to have impressive punch, but the default spell in itself - in a list with Wild Riders, Dryads and Wardancers, can help Wood Elves continue to 'steam roll' or at least cause stubborn units to keep taking those break tests.

Thoughts?

(Don't even get me started on how powerful Wild Riders become with this!)

Anardakil
04-07-2010, 22:11
Ive played an 8th ed game with my wood elves. it was a disaster :P
Life magic was nice though. It's just not very good when you roll snake eyes for the amount of power dice xD

Yeah I've thought about it. the signature spell is pretty good. would definitely be nice on dryads :) pretty good on eternal guards too methinks.

Still not sure I want to field wild riders anymore since they cant really deny ranks anymore.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 22:40
Wild Riders are hands down the best unit in the book (although personally I'd still wager War Dancers are).

Yes, you need more models to break ranks, but given that won't remove Steadfast, it's not something that would make altogether much difference to begin with.

With the Beasts default spell, they hit very hard, are swift, able to move freely through forests and are about the only Knight quality unit to be able to move 12" at the start of the turn and be behind enemy lines turn 1 - that they cause fear (potentially causing the enemy to hit on 5's) and would be 2 STR5 attacks each even when they're charged is just one of the few reasons to take them more this edition.

They really are the bees knees and the devil's backbone :D

Balerion
04-07-2010, 23:54
Wild Riders are hands down the best unit in the book (although personally I'd still wager War Dancers are).

Yes, you need more models to break ranks, but given that won't remove Steadfast, it's not something that would make altogether much difference to begin with.

With the Beasts default spell, they hit very hard, are swift, able to move freely through forests and are about the only Knight quality unit to be able to move 12" at the start of the turn and be behind enemy lines turn 1 - that they cause fear (potentially causing the enemy to hit on 5's) and would be 2 STR5 attacks each even when they're charged is just one of the few reasons to take them more this edition.

They really are the bees knees and the devil's backbone :D
One of the problems with your claims is that you depend so heavily on the idea that spell can define whether or not a unit is worth taking.

How good are your Wild Riders going to be when you fail to cast the spell? When it gets dispelled? When the Vanguard move puts your WRs out of the 12" casting range of the spell's default level? When the same spell or another one of equal worth is cast on the WRs target unit?

I'll keep using Wild Riders come hell or high water, since they're my favourite unit in the WE book, but they really are facing some significant problems now vs. steadfast, step-up, inability to deny ranks, and ease with which enemies can reform in or out of combat to deal with the fast WR threat on their flank.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
05-07-2010, 01:18
Vanguard has a strong potential to backfire; there is no faster way to lose an unit than to make a vanguard move against a turtling opponent who goes first and finds "that" fast cav unit happens to be the only thing in range of all the guns. And let's not forget the new rules for warmachines mean even if the fast cav do get a charge on them only 2 can actually attack. "What an awesome trade off for losing the ability to shoot 360."

I've been trying Lore of Life and it hasn't been working that well (restoring wounds doesn't help when the unit don't make it to your next magic phase). Beasts is not perfect, but the signature spell kinda makes up for it. In a perfect world they would errata spellsingers to be able to take beast but I'll probably start trying beasts for now.

I actually might even go Athel Loren on my level 3 (all things considered)

macattack428
05-07-2010, 21:56
played a game vs. dwarves today and i tested out small dancer units. I ran two units of five. ( think suicide bombers) i ran one unit straight at the anvil and, with luck, killing blowed his lord. the second unit helped my amber alter highborn ruin a warrior unit which held his BSB.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
06-07-2010, 02:52
played a game vs. dwarves today and i tested out small dancer units. I ran two units of five. ( think suicide bombers) i ran one unit straight at the anvil and, with luck, killing blowed his lord. the second unit helped my amber alter highborn ruin a warrior unit which held his BSB.

Is there any more details, maybe a battle report? I've mostly abandoned wardancers since they won't usually make back their points but now are far more likely to get wiped out by shooting/magic as easy point. Personally I'd like to work them back in some way if there is a tactic for them that works reliably.

willowdark
06-07-2010, 05:45
90 pts for 5! They'll make back they're points if you use them to target fast cav and skirmishers. Remember, I6. They can take a charge from anything and strike first.

And again, on the flank attacks back won't be nearly as massive. They don't break ranks, but in 8th very little actually will. Support charges by Wardancers to the flank will be huge, with little risk of dying in return.

And there is still the 4+ dance. Wardancers are far from bad. I'm actually considering sticking with my 9 Wardancers with full command and my Wardancer Lord. I'll just have to drop the Amber Pendant for a Ward Save. AP will be largely useless in 8th anyway.

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 06:35
Good thing you have that heavy armor that'll give you a 4+ ward, that's also cheaper than the one in your book :)

Satan
06-07-2010, 07:09
I'll be playing my first 8th edition games this friday, with a 2250 pts list I haven't yet begun to write. However, on paper, I'm not particularly impressed by the current standards of the wood elf army, to the point where I'm considering taking my beastmen to the field instead.

I wasn't the least impressed by wild riders in 7th and found them to be one of the most useless units in the game, with actual killing performance rare and far in-between. That said, I think I'll try to fit a unit in, but in order to keep a all-round army I'm gonna have to go with block units I think.

Anyway, I'm meeting high elves on friday and any tips would be extremely helpful. A lvl 4 mage is a no-brainer since the wood elf lore doesn't appear all that impressive to me, but it's just too darn expensive... extremely overpriced for a 2250 list since it ends up costing something like 360 points with wand of wych elm and the glamour kindred. Is 2 lvl 2 mages a viable option instead?

My idea was to build a list centered around a block of 20 eternal guard, a unit of maybe 3 treekin and a treeman supported by 2 units of 10 glade guards, 10 dryads and 10 wardancers. A Higborn with the rhymer's harp would be placed with the eternal guard in order to grant them some additional protection... but I don't know. I'm having a real hard time picturing any competitive builds for WE in 8th.

Balerion
06-07-2010, 07:29
I might invest in some of the new magic-defense oriented items from the main rulebook, to keep down the HE magic phase.

I'd also try to work in some Waywatchers.

Personally I'm still not convinced that EG can live up their price.

Do WE have anything that can stand up to ASF Swordmasters re-rolling their misses? It sure doesn't feel like it. :(

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 07:39
Wardancers ;)

Satan
06-07-2010, 07:45
I might invest in some of the new magic-defense oriented items from the main rulebook, to keep down the HE magic phase.

I'd also try to work in some Waywatchers.

Personally I'm still not convinced that EG can live up their price.

Do WE have anything that can stand up to ASF Swordmasters re-rolling their misses? It sure doesn't feel like it. :(

Thanks. I'll have to give the magic items section of the rulebook a proper read-through.

I've been considering waywatchers now that we can (correct me if I'm wrong) field both treemen, eagles and WW at the same time.

I've usually found that EG are a pretty decent unit by themselves, but not worht it if they don't fit in with the overall strategic/tactical plan for the list. They're also pretty much a speedbump to our own forces since they cost a fair amount of points and weren't as mobile in 7th ed as the rest of the army.

I don't think we've got anything that can take on swordmasters, and it's one of my main gripes with the army overall - they just can't dish out any punishment. I've always managed some fantastic maneouvers with the WE but have constantly found them lacking in CC apart from wardancers and partly dryads. Don't get me started on the WR...

I don't know about you folks but my main tactic has always been avoidance when faced with blocks of elite infantry. I've never, ever been caught by a unit of chaos chosen and I always try to avoid them at any cost, focusing on smaller but expensive units instead, such as knights and characters.

If I'd had more GG I probably would've fielded another unit of 10, for a total of 3 units and some 8 waywatchers. I think this might be workable alongside a solid formation of EG, TK and a treeman supported by 1-2 units of dryads and some wardancers along with 6 WR and a lvl 4 on horseback and 2 great eagles. Only problem is that there's no way in... I'll ever manage to fit that in at 2250 pts.

My main worry is not about the magic phase or the elite infantry of the HE - but their warmachines. I'm now starting to consider if a mainly "MSU" (within the context of 8th - several GG units of 10 and maybe 8-16 waywatchers) isn't the way to go...

Anardakil
06-07-2010, 08:54
what better unit to kill swordmasters than glade guards? :) I'm more afraid of elite infantry that can actually shrug off arrow volleys.

Satan: repeater bolt throwers are always a pain, but with bigger formations we'll be more vulnerable to mortars, stone throwers and the like.

Kal Taron
06-07-2010, 08:58
Possibilities to take on Swordmasters:
- Shoot and/or magic them to death, then maybe mop up the remainders with whatever is available.
- Try to beat them with Wardancers at their own game. Simply forget it in 8th. Next to no chance at all. Your wardancers are more expensive and have only 1 S3/4 attack versus their 2 S5 attacks. Or you don't take the ASF dance and they go first...
- Treekin might actually be worth it. If you can get Regen and maybe other buffs on them, they stand a good chance to clobber the Swordmasters to death.

The first strategy has so far been the best and easiest and will probably remain so.

Anardakil
06-07-2010, 09:03
Well at least the SM dont get rerolls against wardancers. cause they have higher I. but I think wardancers are kinda sucky this edition anyway, at least on paper. pretty good against heavy cav maybe.

I agree with Kal Taron. Buffed treekin might work. Treekin and glade guards are the only really good units we have this edition it seems :/ treemen are pretty good but cant be hidden.

I tried the eternal guard with the armour piercing banner. helped them kill more :) they really benefit from Flesh to Stone and regen spells too. I know theyre not the ultimate unit but I like them.

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 10:26
You obviously don't charge them to the front, you wouldn't do that in 7th, why presume so in 8th?

Yes, they can reform following a leadership test to the flank, but 4 wardancers into a flank of 2 ('horde sword masters is a fallacy you won't encounter') will invariably strip their steadfast rank and more than likely cause the unit some serious trouble.

If you take two units of shots and a spell at them on their way over the board, huzzah!

Satan
06-07-2010, 10:50
You obviously don't charge them to the front, you wouldn't do that in 7th, why presume so in 8th?

Yes, they can reform following a leadership test to the flank, but 4 wardancers into a flank of 2 ('horde sword masters is a fallacy you won't encounter') will invariably strip their steadfast rank and more than likely cause the unit some serious trouble.

If you take two units of shots and a spell at them on their way over the board, huzzah!

Since skirmishers don't have a 360 sight arc, or even 90 degrees, chances are you'll be unable to maneouver them into a suitable position unless you've already caught them with a hammer unit. And I think we all previously agreed on the fact that wood elves lack staying power.

Theoretically I'd say that wardancers will behave more like a standard unit now rather than as the skirmishers we all know and love. The major flexibility is gone, and that's not doomsaying, but a fact.

I agree on the assessment that they're still just as, and possibly even more lethal in close combat, but what're you going to use as an anvil? The only option is EG and I don't think lists with 2 units of those will be all that common at 2250 pts or less.

As for using them on their own, their usefulness is questionable. Their maneuvourability isn't all that different from a standard ranked unit right now, so supposing you'll be able to land a flank charge unopposed against an opponent who only needs to pass a LD test in his turn in order to deny you just that with a free reform - would you seriously consider a flank charge against a unit which will be able to strike back against your poor 6+ ward save, t 3 elves? The main advantage of a gazillion attacks wiping out all opponents is not all that reliable the way I see it.

What I'd love for is for the PDF faq to make them a ranked unit with banners and lower points cost... with a magic resistance of 2 and a character with rhymer's harp, a banner or a magic buff they'd be awesome. As would regular wood elf magicians being able to choose spells from life or beasts lores...

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 11:07
I intend to make use of an Altar Highborn and the Crown of Command as my pinning unit. My Wild Riders will also be doing much of the work, the Dawn Spear and The Other Trickster's Shard combine very nicely to make High Elves WS1.

It is my intention to use Wardancers as a main assault unit, and I will likely simply keep them as a ranked unit on the board (except when templates are around, naturally) to get into the right mind frame of the movement change - they're still M5 and Wood Elves are still one of the most mobile armies due to the plethora of fast cavalry options.

I'm sorry to hear you've not had luck with Wild Riders. Under 7th they are the best fast cavalry and the hardest hitting cavalry unit (not heavy) hands down. Even now, they have exceptional speed and even though random charging is introduced, a minimum charge distance of 11" gives you plenty of scope to get up close and personal to a unit's flank and force them to either expose themselves (oo err!) to the support unit to the flank, or take the Wild Riders to their flank and the Wardancers to the front.

We all know a single Wood Elf unit can no longer break anything it touches.

I've ripped through so many things on the charge with 8 Dryads, 8 Wardancers or 5 Wild Riders I'm rather glad of the challenge in shifting tactics and lists to deal with what should be an interesting game.

Remember their movement, and that they can go from the front of most units to facing the rear "1 inch away and be in charge arc no matter where a unit goes...and that they're STR5 on the charge, cause fear and have 5+/5++ basic.

Obviously, Balerion is right in saying I rely too heavily on magical support, but that's the point of support magic.

Utilise your magic to support your armies progress where it is needed most and those Step Up attacks won't make a damned sight bit of difference if you hit hard.

Warbanner, Banner, Fear and 3-4 kills is not that hard to win combats with.

And with D6+1 models healing available, we can stick around enough hopefully to drag the enemy into the peat and mulch to give life to the trees ;)

Satan
06-07-2010, 11:38
I intend to make use of an Altar Highborn and the Crown of Command as my pinning unit. My Wild Riders will also be doing much of the work, the Dawn Spear and The Other Trickster's Shard combine very nicely to make High Elves WS1.

Good combo albeit expensive. I'm doubtful about the Alter Highborn as well. He'll be what, Ld 9 stubborn? What's the plan, charge and challenge?


It is my intention to use Wardancers as a main assault unit, and I will likely simply keep them as a ranked unit on the board (except when templates are around, naturally) to get into the right mind frame of the movement change - they're still M5 and Wood Elves are still one of the most mobile armies due to the plethora of fast cavalry options.

We have what, 2 fast cav options? My beasts are M 5 and daemons can sport some M 5+ troops as well, not to mention Bretonnians, so I'm not all that impressed by Wood elf movement on foot. Main advantage has always been the extended charge distance this grants and the 360 sight arc of the skrmishers as far as I'm concerned.



I'm sorry to hear you've not had luck with Wild Riders. Under 7th they are the best fast cavalry and the hardest hitting cavalry unit (not heavy) hands down. Even now, they have exceptional speed and even though random charging is introduced, a minimum charge distance of 11" gives you plenty of scope to get up close and personal to a unit's flank and force them to either expose themselves (oo err!) to the support unit to the flank, or take the Wild Riders to their flank and the Wardancers to the front.

Well, as CC fast cav goes, there's not much in the way of competition. I agree with your assessment that they're fast, and I think (cheap-ish) units of about 6 for a totalt of some 170 pts will be quite useful in 8th for getting around the back of the enemy and possibly hunt or intimidate war machines unless they get slaughtered by them first. Their prowess in CC is the one thing that has NEVER impressed me. The rules are simply idiotic - one S 5 attack per model and another at S 3 as opposed to the regular 2 attacks? I can't think of any other likewise penalised unit. I've never seen them steamroll anything and I doubt I ever shall.[/QUOTE]



We all know a single Wood Elf unit can no longer break anything it touches.

Agreed. I never thought it could prior to the release of 8th. Back in the days before they started to handing out new army books to O&G and Dark Elves they sure could though.



I've ripped through so many things on the charge with 8 Dryads, 8 Wardancers or 5 Wild Riders I'm rather glad of the challenge in shifting tactics and lists to deal with what should be an interesting game.

With Wardancers and sometimes Dryads I've experience this, yes, but never with Wild riders. As it looks right now I think we're being hit by the nerf bat, but I agree that shifting tactics and lists might help us avail that problem.



Remember their movement, and that they can go from the front of most units to facing the rear "1 inch away and be in charge arc no matter where a unit goes...and that they're STR5 on the charge, cause fear and have 5+/5++ basic.


Warbanner, Banner, Fear and 3-4 kills is not that hard to win combats with.



I disagree. T 3 horsemen w 5+/5+ is NOT going to be particularly fantastic with a meagre 5-6 S 5 attacks against enemies that get to strike back. For those 3-4 kills you'll lose 1-2 riders. Best case scenario you'll hold and possibly cause enough damage on the 2nd round of CC not to lose. Used against standard infantry units with a profile of 3 I agree that they'll be most useful though. You NEED that warbanner. And I think there are other options which could make the unit really effective, but at a cost that is too high in games of 2250 and below.



Obviously, Balerion is right in saying I rely too heavily on magical support, but that's the point of support magic.

Utilise your magic to support your armies progress where it is needed most and those Step Up attacks won't make a damned sight bit of difference if you hit hard.

I agree totally. We really need to use magic for maximum support for our elite units (IE: All our units). Only problem as I see it is that anything below lvl 3 isn't worthwhile since we don't have access to the new improved lores. Not as anything else than pure magic defence, at least. I hope the FAQ lets our mages choose other lores than Athel Loren.



And with D6+1 models healing available, we can stick around enough hopefully to drag the enemy into the peat and mulch to give life to the trees ;)

IF we get that spell...

I'm trying to be pragmatic here at a 2250 pts level. At the level of 2500-3000 pts, I think we'll be able to churn out some fantastic and competitive lists without much problem - so for my WE I sure hope that's the way the game is headed. We need those extra points to field some larger elite units, simply put. And at that level I think we'll be able to bring so much magic and severla sets of elite units (not to mention GG) to the table in order that we'll become really dangerous.

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 11:48
Interesting assessment and one I agree with for the most part.

A couple of things to come back on:

The default spell for Beasts is +1 Strength and +1 toughness for a unit. This makes Wild Riders permanently STR5 (STR6 on the charge) and T4, and Wardancers an impressive permanent STR4 and T4. This is considerably easier to get, given it's signature, and although it's a 10+ to cast (9+ on Wild Riders) 3 dice should suffice to guarantee it's brought into play. By permanent I mean not with condition such as 'on the charge' etc.

Remember that Wild Riders are twice as effective when charged themselves. With anything charging them or striking simultaneously in subsequent rounds of combat, they're 2STR4 attacks and a STR3 attack per model, or 2 STR5 and a STR3(4?) for the horse.

The Highborn is LD10. My plan is the same as under 7th. Charge cavalry flanks, slingshot him with ovverrun into another unit or charge unit flanks (he's M9 still, an 18" march is still very tasty and he charges like cavalry) and he can most certainly deal with the war machine threat; archery units and the like will also be a prime target.

I guess my last attempt to get you to like WR is to say that they ignore the penalties for moving through woods as cavalry. Whilst woods are now open to all troops, Skirmishers are stubborn when in them and Steadfast is negated, so Tree Singing is going to be just as important and luring troops into the trees (which they'll have to do eventually if they want to get to us ;)) is going to be as important as ever for different reasons.

No difficult terrain tests and the ability to start in -2 cover that you can charge from turn 2 alongside the Vanguard move gives Wild Riders reduced effectiveness at breaking on the charge, but a huge boost to tactical versatility.

Satan
06-07-2010, 11:59
Interesting assessment and one I agree with for the most part.

A couple of things to come back on:

The default spell for Beasts is +1 Strength and +1 toughness for a unit. This makes Wild Riders permanently STR5 (STR6 on the charge) and T4, and Wardancers an impressive permanent STR4 and T4. This is considerably easier to get, given it's signature, and although it's a 10+ to cast (9+ on Wild Riders) 3 dice should suffice to guarantee it's brought into play. By permanent I mean not with condition such as 'on the charge' etc.

Remember that Wild Riders are twice as effective when charged themselves.


Agreed, which is bizarre, right? But then again, I left out the fact that you get a +1 to combat res from charging which is favourable for the WR under the new rules after all. Especially if you're facing combat monsters for example.



With anything charging them or striking simultaneously in subsequent rounds of combat, they're 2STR4 attacks and a STR3 attack per model, or 2 STR5 and a STR3(4?) for the horse.

And with a magic buff they're gourgeous little horsies. I'm not sure whether the Strenght increase applies to the whole model - clearly it wasn't intended but I can't remember the exact wording...



The Highborn is LD10. My plan is the same as under 7th. Charge cavalry flanks, slingshot him with ovverrun into another unit or charge unit flanks (he's M9 still, an 18" march is still very tasty and he charges like cavalry) and he can most certainly deal with the war machine threat; archery units and the like will also be a prime target.

Against archery units he'll do fine, but I think he's too expensive for taking on cavalry units. If they're fast cav then they should definitively fear him, but he's not immune to psychology and he needs to be in a challenge or take on light opponents only as he won't stand a chance against a proper ranked unit.




I guess my last attempt to get you to like WR is to say that they ignore the penalties for moving through woods as cavalry. Whilst woods are now open to all troops, Skirmishers are stubborn when in them and Steadfast is negated, so Tree Singing is going to be just as important and luring troops into the trees (which they'll have to do eventually if they want to get to us ;)) is going to be as important as ever for different reasons.

No difficult terrain tests and the ability to start in -2 cover that you can charge from turn 2 alongside the Vanguard move gives Wild Riders reduced effectiveness at breaking on the charge, but a huge boost to tactical versatility.

Agreed. I think they're a strategically/tactically sound choice. I just don't think they're effective in CC. But used as you describe, with criteria that WE can control by placing the woods in an advantegous position they're likely to become the bane of war machines and other fast cav units deployed on flanks for example. Darn, I think I'm gonna need 2 units for friday... hate those bolt throwers...

Maybe I should field 2 units of 5-6 and skip waywatchers or a unit of dryads? Maybe even one of the eagles...

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 12:06
Since Eagles can now be march blocked and limited to moving 10" a turn, and they almost will certainly not be able to kill a fly in combat, especially war machines, I'd switch them out for a unit of Wild Riders, if not to win, then to prove me wrong!

The Highborn isn't supposed to kill units, if he holds one in place for two turns or more, and kills a unit of cavalry in one game, he's gotten his points back as far as I'm concerned. Naturally, the use of a Great Weapon hampers his combat effectiveness but hitting cavalry in the flank, any sort except Blood Knights I'd wager, will kill them in two turns (or Black Knights being raised). He's Stubborn LD10 and Fear no longer auto-breaks, so he's even more effective against Chaos Knights to boot.

I'd be interested to see how he performs against Monsters and Monstrous Infantry as well, although Ogre Kingdoms and Trolls are fairly rare occurances in these parts.

I just checked the rulebook - the Horses do not benefit from the spell sadly, although the +1 to cast the Beast Lore on horses and monsters and, well, beasts, is a nice little bonus that makes it worthwhile all the same. It's effectively a +5 to cast a 10+ spell, meaning you can feasibly do it on two dice once your opponent's Dispel Dice Pool is drained. Leaving you plenty of scope for the Bolt Thrower spell and the area of effect character boosts (I am going to try Beasts in my next 2,250+ game to see how nasty the High Born is charging under the effect of the bigger buff spell.

I'm not sure even Blood Knights could survive.

(Look at us being all civilised and debating and not pulling ourselves under or rage quitting the army we love :D)

Oh, and skip the Waywatchers if you need to find points - you need to be meticulous with their movement and placement and until we have them errata'd and discover how they're deployed with their scout rule, I think it'd be best to skip them.

CauCaSus
06-07-2010, 12:07
Yes, they can reform following a leadership test to the flank, but 4 wardancers into a flank of 2 ('horde sword masters is a fallacy you won't encounter') will invariably strip their steadfast rank and more than likely cause the unit some serious trouble

No they won't. Wardancers haven't been able to disrupt ranks in 7th and won't be in 8th. Skirmishers don't disrupt ranks, neither do units of less than 2 ranks.

The highborn might not flee, but will he survive on his own? He's just a t3 elf after all.

And the wild riders cost A LOT more than a unit of wild riders, so you can't simply "replace" it with them. You have to take the points from somewhere

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 12:09
Not what I meant.

We'll rarely see units of bigger than 12 Swordmasters, given their cost.

At worst, a unit of 14-15 is plausible, in 2X6 and two to the back, or 2X7. A flank charge to that unit will remove that back rank, and thus Steadfast. A round of shooting should clip off two or three to boot.

Sorry for the confusion.

Anardakil
06-07-2010, 12:36
I'll be sticking to dryads. At least they have chances of surviving return attacks. Or maybe I'll ditch skirmishers :/ and wild riders... I might use 1 unit of dryads, 1 unit of cav, eternal guards, 3-4 units of glade guards, 6 treekin, treeman, eagle, weaver, bsb... something like that.

mortetvie
06-07-2010, 19:11
has anyone posted anything about the scout version of glade guard or skirmishers with bows in general?

They can march and shoot and move as fast cav, so I was thinking that it might be worthwhile to have a lot of those units, march and get in certain range, shoot, when enemy gets close march away and still shoot, since WE do not suffer the move and shoot penalty I think that this is a decent tactic. Also, on whoever said the tactic for having the -1 to be hit in cc and to have the shimering scale mail (another -1 to be hit in cc) that is a great tactic! basic infantry will be hitting you on 6s and you won't be needing an annoyance of netlings for it either!

With all the warmachines, treemen might be hard pressed but I am thinking waywatchers are better now so I plan on taking 2X10!

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 19:19
I don't think I've ever written a list without Glade Guard Scouts in it for larger games (1,500 or above).

With March Blocking now changed, the Banner of Saemrath is a fantastic utility took to give them. Not only can they set up in no man's land in a forest, they can cause a hard stop to March Blocking in a 12" bubble and slow down the enemy whilst you move into position.

Anardakil
06-07-2010, 19:21
-2 to hit combo seems nice.

Not sure I think waywatchers are better. No 360 line of sight and it's much harder to march block now. :/


With March Blocking now changed, the Banner of Saemrath is a fantastic utility took to give them. Not only can they set up in no man's land in a forest, they can cause a hard stop to March Blocking in a 12" bubble and slow down the enemy whilst you move into position.

how is that banner fantastic now when march blocking has become so hard? :S

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 19:22
EDIT:

It prevents march blocking.

'Units may not march within 12".'

No 'may march block if they past LD test.'

It stops MB'ing outright.

Anardakil
06-07-2010, 19:33
ooooh, now tha'ts pretty cool :D nice. unless it gets ********* by the FAQ ^^

Balerion
06-07-2010, 19:59
No difficult terrain tests and the ability to start in -2 cover that you can charge from turn 2 alongside the Vanguard move gives Wild Riders reduced effectiveness at breaking on the charge, but a huge boost to tactical versatility.
Forests are soft cover, aka -1, aren't they? Unless I'm overlooking something....

Edit: Oops, I was. The additional -1 for skirmishers.


Since Eagles can now be march blocked and limited to moving 10" a turn, and they almost will certainly not be able to kill a fly in combat, especially war machines, I'd switch them out for a unit of Wild Riders, if not to win, then to prove me wrong!
Wait, why wouldn't they be able to kill anything? They have the same stats as they did before, plus D6 stomps (or flaps, if you prefer), so they're still solid for tracking down "soft" warmachine crews (goblins, elves, etc.). And Eagles have such a huge charge range that march-blocking doesn't worry me too much.

Throw a Noble on the eagle and you go from a decent warmachine hunter to a great one.



With March Blocking now changed, the Banner of Saemrath is a fantastic utility took to give them. Not only can they set up in no man's land in a forest, they can cause a hard stop to March Blocking in a 12" bubble and slow down the enemy whilst you move into position.
Although the tricksiness of this ploy appeals to me (I have some goblin blood on my father's side ;)) what's stopping your enemy from simply steamrolling the scouts for some easy VP/a break point? If they're within 12" they're within reliable charge range. Yes they'll be stubborn in woods, but they're still T3 with no save.

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 20:07
Units in hard cover gain -2 to hit, I'd wager that Wild Riders obscured 50% by trees counts as hard cover.

Skirmishers would get -2 minimum, potentially -3, -4 if they're Waywatchers!

Didn't figure Eagles got Stomp (which is a single auto-hit, iirc). A noble on an eagle, well, there's something we can both agree on as being useful! Especially if it counts as having Forest Strider.

If you keep the Scouts in woods, chances are your opponent will not want to send infantry or cavalry in, and other skirmishers can be out moved, or have a spellsinger on a horse with the Deepwood Sphere ready to run in as the Scouts flee and burn the mothers to the ground :D

Balerion
06-07-2010, 21:09
Units in hard cover gain -2 to hit, I'd wager that Wild Riders obscured 50% by trees counts as hard cover.
Nah, forests are explicitly defined as soft cover (-1 to hit).


Didn't figure Eagles got Stomp (which is a single auto-hit, iirc). A noble on an eagle, well, there's something we can both agree on as being useful! Especially if it counts as having Forest Strider.
I think you're right, it's only 1 stomp attack. I'm still having difficulty keeping track of the nuances separating Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Infantry, and Monstrous Cavalry.


If you keep the Scouts in woods, chances are your opponent will not want to send infantry or cavalry in, and other skirmishers can be out moved, or have a spellsinger on a horse with the Deepwood Sphere ready to run in as the Scouts flee and burn the mothers to the ground :D
Why wouldn't he want to send something in? As we've previously discussed, forests elicit no penalties for infantry who move through them. He won't want to send cavalry, chariots, or fliers after you, but those things probably have more important tasks anyway. One of his basic infantry units can lock onto the Scouts and wreck them.

Out-moving those hunters is easier said than done. The Scouts will be able to march 10" (on a successful Ld test; otherwise they may be march-blocked themselves). The enemy units will likely be charging 10"-12".

The only way to avoid the charge is if you're out of their LoS. Which would mean that the forest would have to be in his deployment zone, parallel to his units. Which is extremely unlikely. Most players won't be placing forests in their deployment zones during set-up unless they plan to deploy something like a warmachine in there, which would prevent you from scouting there in the first place.

Even as a WE player you're more likely to place a wood in the centre of the board than along the edge, since they provide more utility in that position...



EDIT:

It prevents march blocking.

'Units may not march within 12".'

No 'may march block if they past LD test.'

It stops MB'ing outright.

...However, none of that may be relevant at all, since I looked up Saemrath and found out that you falsified this quotation to begin with. The real wording:

"The distance at which enemy models are prevented from marching by this unit is increased from 8" to 12" "

Is much less clear than what you wrote. Considering it reference an increase from the base 8" radius, you may have to apply its usage according to the rules that govern that 8" radius. I have no strong feeling on this right now, since it's clearly a grey area that the FAQ would do well to address. Just pointing out that you may find some resistance to your interpretation.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
06-07-2010, 22:06
90 pts for 5! They'll make back they're points if you use them to target fast cav and skirmishers. Remember, I6. They can take a charge from anything and strike first.

And again, on the flank attacks back won't be nearly as massive. They don't break ranks, but in 8th very little actually will. Support charges by Wardancers to the flank will be huge, with little risk of dying in return.

And there is still the 4+ dance. Wardancers are far from bad. I'm actually considering sticking with my 9 Wardancers with full command and my Wardancer Lord. I'll just have to drop the Amber Pendant for a Ward Save. AP will be largely useless in 8th anyway.

I've considered most of this before, but with me they now suffer the same fate as Eternal Guard did in 7th: Dryads do it better. T4 with a 5+ ward is better than T3 with 4+ ward, a constant S4 goes a long way to putting wounds on higher toughness units and (off the charge) a S4 hit vs S3 killing blow basically evens out in most situations. Dryads are cheaper, core, and cause fear. The biggest issue for wardancers is true line of sight; so now any unit of archers or wizard with a magic missile can earn 90 pts by causing 5 wounds against a unit that is T3 with limited saves.

Charging anything infantry in the front will rarely pay dividends because the unit will likely be stubborn, wardancers are penalized by paying pts for a second attack they don't use in supporting ranks, and S4 won't make back their points in a single turn (and a mix of a stubborn enemy unit + attacks back that will likely hit & wound on 4+ makes that kind of a deal breaker). The normal solution to this would be to charge in the flank, but with TLOS how are we to manuever into the flank without first exposing our own flank or rear to a charge. The only solution so far would be to field massive units with characters, but a 300-400+ pt unit with low toughness and low total wounds may attract a lot of shooting and magic...and any rank-and-file enemy unit that is T4 with a 5+ armour save would uttly reck such an expensive unit.

If we're lucky Errata's will come out this Sat smoothing a lot of these issues. Maybe GW will continue it's tradition of recycling 5th ed ideas and give Wardancers that old ability of being able to charging through friendly units. Of course we can also hope that waywatcher regain their "traps" ability, Dryads become rank-and-file with an "aspect" ability. Maybe they will do something new like "Wardancers don't pick their dances, but all are constantly active", although knowing GW it is more likely go like this: "Wardancers don't pick their dances, roll for them randomly." In all cases, if anything mentioned in this paragraph comes true I just want everyone to know that I totally called it.:p




With that out of the way, Satan: a lot of High elves I see field a few blocks of infantry with lots of troops per unit. If you can field two decent anvil units on either side of the depolyment zone (e.g. twin units of 4 treekin) and he hasn't gone too heavy on the magic you could create a collapsing flank. place down a few units draw out some deployments (and not tip your hand) then throw one on one flank, then the other on the other flank. Then (depending on what he throws down to counter) overload the easier side.

Obviously this is poor advice if you roll one of the senarios that force you to deploy your entire army all at once.

Nocculum
06-07-2010, 22:34
Remember War Dancers and Wild Riders have a hard 5+ ward vs. Magic now mind...

mightygnoblar
06-07-2010, 23:03
as boring as it may be i think i may go back to the old WE style of massed glade guard, with skirmishes and wizards for support only rather than being the main focus of the army.

Units of 20 glade guard with musician and standard can be a really solid unit now. They are manouverable thanks to the musicians reform, and in a pinch stand and shoot combined with I5 can see them fight off other lighty armed units.
I plan to run two such units along with a large unit of eternal guard (thinking 30) as the core of my force in a 2000-2500pts game. This will then be supported by smaller more conventional glade guard units as well as units of dryads.

regardless i think the face of the wood elf list shifts now from a ghosting force of small units, to an army that must present a battle line which is then supported by our great untillity units such as dryads.

Witchblade
06-07-2010, 23:16
Wardancers are screwed. Face it. Practically everything they do, dryads do better for cheaper.

Wildriders I'm not sure about, but I think 1 unit with (war?)banner is the maximum you should go for in competitive lists. They are only good to take out soft targets now: weak scouts, mages, warmachines and fast cavalry. Even archers are problematic. They're too expensive and fragile to use as flankers.

Anyone know the rules for flying cavalry? My gut says they're screwed as well. That leaves glade riders and eagles as our harassment units. 2 of each seems like a good investment still. Fleeing Glade riders and suicide Eagles are one of the few reliable speedbumps we have left.

Large/medium units of dryads may have a place after all, especially in the presence of a BSB. With stubborn (in woods), they're pretty decent at wars of attrition.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
06-07-2010, 23:50
Anyone know the rules for flying cavalry?

If I recall correctly they follow the rules for both flyers and fast cavalry so they do get vanguard if that's really worth anything and count as skirmishers so -1 to being hit.

Satan
07-07-2010, 08:12
With that out of the way, Satan: a lot of High elves I see field a few blocks of infantry with lots of troops per unit. If you can field two decent anvil units on either side of the depolyment zone (e.g. twin units of 4 treekin) and he hasn't gone too heavy on the magic you could create a collapsing flank. place down a few units draw out some deployments (and not tip your hand) then throw one on one flank, then the other on the other flank. Then (depending on what he throws down to counter) overload the easier side.

Obviously this is poor advice if you roll one of the senarios that force you to deploy your entire army all at once.

So, not only do I need to compensate for our worst failing - an army with few units that can carry banners, but if I know my opponent right chances are I'll be facing Phoenix Guard, Spearmen, 2 blocks of 10 archers, 2 bolt throwers, at least 2 mages and dragon princes.

I think your tactic is sound - I'll try to squeeze in a unit of 3 and 4 treekin (only have 7 models) along with a large block of EG, 2 units of dryads and 2 units of WR. I'll probably skip the wardancers unless it turns out I've got the points as I'm not sure they'll be of much use, even though they have a ward save of 5+ against magic. The question is whether I should include a treeman and the expensive combo of a higborn w rhymer's harp and annoyance (245 pts)?

Current suggestion would be thus:

Spellweaver
Glamour Kindred
Horse
Wand of Wych Elm

Highborn
Eternal Kindred
Rhymer's Harp
Annoyance of Netlings

BSB
Oaken Armour(?)

(Additional mage)

10 GG
FC

10 GG
FC

10 Dryads

10 Dryads

18 EG
FC

5 WR
Banner, Musician

6 WR
Banner, Musician
War Banner

3 Treekin

4 Treekin

2 x Great Eagle

Treeman

Since I'll be facing an army with few, but elite units I'll try to play according to Gormereth's suggestion - this would entail moving up the WR Units (one of which has the mage inside it - should it?) on the flanks along with the eagles to threaten war machines and archer units.

At the same time I'll draw him out by deploying the GG and Dryads and possibly treeman so I can place the EG w treekin support at an advantegous position. I would've liked a unit of 10 Wardancers, but I don't think I'll be able to fit them in at 2250 pts. I'm also unsure of the Lords - they'll end up costing a fortune. Is the Higborn w rhymer's harp necessary? Or the Spellweaver? Should I go for a lvl 2 mage and a branchwraith/lvl 1 instead from a tactical perspective?

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 09:04
Looks interesting. Is that 2500 pts?

I'm skeptical about the wild riders. Seems like they'll be mowed down even quicker by repeater bolt throwers now that we can almost never hide them.

I'll be using at least double the amount of glade guards I think.

I'd say keep the spellweaver. The lore of life is reeeeeaaally good. Especially the +2t and 5+ regen spells. I'd drop the lvl 2 instead. What's it going to accomplish with the sucky lore of Athel Loren? might get FAQed though. Id rather take a lvl0 branchwraith with cluster instead. Not sure you really need it with the wand of wych elm though :)
Be sure to make the weaver lvl4, helps with dispelling too :)

Here's a list I've been thinking of after getting terribly beaten in my first 8th ed game.

Spellweaver level 4 with Talisman of Preservation, Wand of Wych Elm, Lore of Life 350 pts
Noble Battle Standard Bearer with Silver Steel Armour 135 pts

10 Glade Guards with Standard Bearer, Musician 138 pts
10 Glade Guards with Standard Bearer, Musician 138 pts
10 Glade Guards with Musician 126 pts
10 Glade Guards with Musician 126 pts
10 Glade Guards/Dryads/Glade Riders (not sure on these, feels like I might need some mobility) 120 pts
10 Dryads 120 pts

20 Eternal guards with full command 270 pts
6 Treekin 390 pts

Treewoman 285 pts
Great Eagle 50 pts

2248 pts

Very character low and low on magic items. Trying to take only what's necessary so that I can get a ton of shooting and a few powerful cc units. I'll try to play very defensively and killing as much as I can with the glade guards, then tie up and try to kill the weakened stuff with the tree, treekin, dryads and eternal guards. The dryads will probably screen the eternal guard unless the EG hide in cover in the beginning.
With the incredibly bad dice rolls I get when rolling to wound for shooting Im unsure it will work though ;P I think I gotta get some new dice for this ed. my 7th ed dice seem tired.

The Blades of reason
07-07-2010, 09:36
well i have manged to play 3 games and have won 2 and drawed in the other. however they were very small games (2x750, and 1x1000) but the thing that really saved me was the extreme spam of tree singing and the fact that my opponents forgot about my evil trees. so there is still hope:).

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 09:39
Nice to hear youve won with the WE :)

What's good about treesinging spam now?

Satan
07-07-2010, 09:46
Hm. I like it. That's an awful lot of GG though. I probably would've taken another 10 if I'd had the models.

Is it really that preferable to field the treekin in a unit of 6 as opposed to 2 units of 3? Against the bolt throwers I'm a bit skeptic. What'll you do with the Spellweaver? Place it with one of the GG units or the EG?

I'd try to save some points in order to get at least one more banner in for the GG.

Something like this then:

Spellweaver - 350-ish
Glamour Kindred
Horse
Wand of Wych Elm

BSB - 135
Silver Steel armour

10 GG - 138
Musician, Banner

10 GG - 138
Musician, Banner

10 Dryads - 120


18 EG - 250-ish
FC

5 WR - 150-ish
Banner, Musician

6 WR - 170-ish
Banner, Musician
War Banner

3 Treekin - 195

3 Treekin - 195

2 x Great Eagle - 100

Treeman - 285

2250-ish.

I know I should've brought my army book to work. How does this look like? I think the Spellweaver is far too expensive/fragile really, and I hate not having the rhymer's harp w the eternal guard, but I think this might just work... Another option is to drop one of the WR units in favour of waywatchers.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 09:54
Well a unit of 6 treekin will look very cool :D and will be very, very mean in CC. 3 Treekin struggle to win combats on their own vs other units. 6 Treekin might do it very well.

The Spellweaver will either be in the glade guards or the eternal guards. Maybe switching units as the battle progresses.

Honestly, isnt it a better idea to take six extra eternal guards instead of that expensive harp? I'd say the harp is more pts effective if you want to take an eg horde.

If you feel your EG are very vulnerable then focus on buffing them with your weaver :)

Im not sure about your list, and Im not sure on mine either :)
I like your list but Im worried about the wild riders' survivability. If youre worried about the survivability of your weaver, then why not put her on foot with the ward like I did? might be safer than galloping around with the wild riders.

Whad do you think of 30 glade guards with banner of springtide?

ghostline
07-07-2010, 10:49
Everyone is raving about the Lore of Life, but I think it's too risky and random to use as a mainstay tactic. Athel Loren is going to be where it's at. A level 4 wizard can potentially get any spell in the lore off with 1 dice. Using 2 dice is near guarantee and you have a low risk of miscast. Couple that with the amount of natural ability Bound spell spam.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 10:54
I disagree with you. +2T and 5+ regen spells are easy to cast with 2 dice too.
I think Athel Loren is a pretty sucky lore. Hopefully theyll change it in the FAQ.

Satan
07-07-2010, 10:56
Well a unit of 6 treekin will look very cool :D and will be very, very mean in CC. 3 Treekin struggle to win combats on their own vs other units. 6 Treekin might do it very well.

The Spellweaver will either be in the glade guards or the eternal guards. Maybe switching units as the battle progresses.

Honestly, isnt it a better idea to take six extra eternal guards instead of that expensive harp? I'd say the harp is more pts effective if you want to take an eg horde.

If you feel your EG are very vulnerable then focus on buffing them with your weaver :)

Im not sure about your list, and Im not sure on mine either :)
I like your list but Im worried about the wild riders' survivability. If youre worried about the survivability of your weaver, then why not put her on foot with the ward like I did? might be safer than galloping around with the wild riders.

Whad do you think of 30 glade guards with banner of springtide?

A bit awkward but I haven't been able to read through the complete rules yet. I'm slated for friday but I've been working myself to death and tomorrow's the final day before my holiday... What's the major bonus for a unit of 6 treekin? They get 3 extra support attacks, and a rank bonus, but that's it, right? No extra stomp attacks?

I'm just really intimidated by the thought of a 350 pts character on foot. It's a walking, thin wine glass worth something like 16% of the entire army... would it be an option to up it to lvl 4 and skip the wand of wych elm in favour of the rhymer's harp/annoyance and put the spellweaver with the EG?

If it were possible I'd prefer to stick her with a unit of dryads but that sadly isn't possible IIRC. Would've made for the best case scenario IMO.

Six extra eternal guard as opposed to the harp might be a good choice actually. That should free up points for an additional unit of GG or Waywatchers at a 2500 pts level (although I'm playing 2250 on friday).

I feel like we're getting somewhere now!

I can't recall what the springtide banner does actually?

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 11:35
No they get 9 extra support attacks ;) monstrous infantry in the second rank gain up to three support attacks each. so they have 18 s5-attacks :D

Ok. Hmm I guess that's an option :) remember to keep her on foot if you do that though. cause you dont get look out sir in infantry units when on a steed and vice versa.

Yeah I think that's a good way to do it. Good luck on the game btw :)

:D progress!

it gives you the ability to stand and shoot even if the enemy is within half its charge distance.

so always 25 s4-shots when you charge them in the front. pretty nasty. but such a big unit will suffer against mortars and the like I think. Granted, you could always try to buff the unit if facing a mortar. 30 t5 and/or 5+ regen glade guards ^^ hmm

Falkman
07-07-2010, 11:49
would it be an option to up it to lvl 4 and skip the wand of wych elm in favour of the rhymer's harp/annoyance and put the spellweaver with the EG?
Wand of the Wych Elm is among the best defensive magic items in 8th, I wouldn't recommend dropping it :).


it gives you the ability to stand and shoot even if the enemy is within half its charge distance.
Which will be of lesser use in the new rules.
In 8th you can stand and shoot as long as the enemy start their charge move further away than their Move value. so if you are charged by a unit of men (M4), you can S&S if they are further away than 4 inches, even if they should roll up a 12" charge.

This means that the Springtide banner will be of limited use against most things, except maybe cavalry that stand about 3" away from you.
Anything else you'll just be able to back away 3" from, and then be in S&S range anyway.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 12:39
The wand is great in 8th yes :) Im gonna try it in my next game.

Oh I didnt know that. In that case that standard isn't quite worth it I guess. Nice ^^

But what do you tink of a glade guard horde? Im unsure but might be interesting to try out.

Falkman
07-07-2010, 13:21
Glade guard horde (I'm assuming you mean a unit at least 30 man big in 3*10 formation) sounds really pointless. You get them for their shooting abilities, not their close combat prowess, and since they lack any and all forms of protection they'll just die very fast.
I think a unit of 20, ranked 5*4 could work, they get 16 shots while standing still, give them a flag and they got a very decent chance of fighting off light units.
You could even run them 2*10 and just reform into 5*4 when enemy units get too close.
I wouldn't invest any more than that in them though.

lelandchaska
07-07-2010, 13:43
I'm just really intimidated by the thought of a 350 pts character on foot. It's a walking, thin wine glass worth something like 16% of the entire army... would it be an option to up it to lvl 4 and skip the wand of wych elm in favour of the rhymer's harp/annoyance and put the spellweaver with the EG?

If it were possible I'd prefer to stick her with a unit of dryads but that sadly isn't possible IIRC. Would've made for the best case scenario IMO.

Six extra eternal guard as opposed to the harp might be a good choice actually. That should free up points for an additional unit of GG or Waywatchers at a 2500 pts level (although I'm playing 2250 on friday).


I know that I might get blasted for making this suggestion because of the changes to the Look Out, Sir! rules, but what about putting the Highborne with Rhymer's Harp in a horde of Eternal Guard, and then also put a Glamourweave Spellweaver on a Unicorn in there also? (at least until cc is inevitable). If I'm not mistaken, the MR(2) from the Unicorn will stack with the 5+ ward giving the unit a 3+ ward against wounds from spells. Meanwhile, if your Spellweaver can get off that Flesh to Stone spell and buff the whole unit's toughness, you'll have one hell of a bunker.

Edit: Nix that idea, just got reminded about the Forest Spirit not commingling with normal units rule. :(

Satan
07-07-2010, 13:47
I know that I might get blasted for making this suggestion because of the changes to the Look Out, Sir! rules, but what about putting the Highborne with Rhymer's Harp in a horde of Eternal Guard, and then also put a Glamourweave Spellweaver on a Unicorn in there also? (at least until cc is inevitable). If I'm not mistaken, the MR(2) from the Unicorn will stack with the 5+ ward giving the unit a 3+ ward against wounds from spells. Meanwhile, if your Spellweaver can get off that Flesh to Stone spell and buff the whole unit's toughness, you'll have one hell of a bunker.

Haven't had a chance too peek at the Look Out, Sir!-rules yet. Will do so when I get home, but that does indeed sound like a nasty (expensive) combo.

Flarack
07-07-2010, 13:47
That would be really nice, but sadly a unicorn singer/weaver is a forest spirit and so cannot join the EG.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 14:02
Also the unicorn wizard wouldnt get a look out sir. You have to be of the same unit type to get it.

You could however combine the rhymers harp with the cheap Lichebone Standard (MR1)

Falkman
07-07-2010, 14:11
My quick analysis of our units in 8th ed.

Highborn got better, with access to a multitude of new magic items that fills the major gap in useful stuff that existed in the WE book. More kindreds are also viable now, no one will laugh you out of the room simply for taking a Great stag anymore.

Spellweavers got a huge boost, access to arguably the best lore in the rulebook plus another great buff lore is awesome, and with the changes to magic Wand of the Wych elm is now one of the best defensive items in the game.

Treeman Ancient got better, reduced SCR together with Thunderstomp means he can now win combats instead of just drawing them.

Nobles -> see Highborn.

Spellsingers got worse, that I can confess. With the new rulebook lores being so good, being stuck with one of the worst lores in the game is even more painful.

Branchwraiths got better, they're one of the few things in the game now that can reliably add dispel dice to your pool. Combine with Wand of the Wych elm Spellweaver for excellent magic defense.

Dryads are no longer the answer to everything, but are now relegated to a support unit, which they should've always been. They still hit hard, and they are now stubborn in forests (which you can move to favourable locations if need be).

Glade Guard is still as good at shooting as ever, with the added benefit of actually getting to fight back against most units sent to kill them. A 20 man unit of Glade Guard makes for a decent harass unit, and should be able to take care of enemy light cav, skirmishers and even lighter ranked infantry.
They have access to several magic banners that will help their manouverability (sp?), defense and leadership.

Glade Riders are still crap, but Vanguard at least puts them in a better position to threaten war machines.

Eternal Guard got better, still not very good but at least better.

Wardancers got worse, there's no denying it. Return attacks will mow them down like grass.

Warhawk riders got better, Vanguard + fast cavalry + Stomp makes for a much better harass unit than before.

Wild riders got worse, they will die to return attacks just as Wardancers.

Treekin got much better, they are actually one of the best choices in the book now. Combine with Lore of Beasts for incredible results.

Waywatchers are about the same, new Scout rules mean they can set up for first turn charges on warmachines, as long as you don't go first.

Treeman also got a huge boost, see Treeman Ancient.

Great Eagle got a small nerf, it can no longer reliably march block but it received a Stomp attack as compensation.

lelandchaska
07-07-2010, 14:12
I know that I might get blasted for making this suggestion because of the changes to the Look Out, Sir! rules, but


Also the unicorn wizard wouldnt get a look out sir. You have to be of the same unit type to get it.

I knew that somebody would dig me for the Look Out rule, I even prefaced my suggestion with that expectation, and somebody still blasted me! :shifty:

Zaszz
07-07-2010, 14:26
I'm considering basing a 2k army around a treeman ancient and a highborn on a stag. Each would lead a unit of 5 treekin. Those 2 units should hit like a bazooka to the face.

Then put my forest down next to the treeman unit, and toss 9 dryads with a dryad hero with + dispell dice in there and level 1. Just have her and the tree man spam tree singing to keep the dryads in the woods and have it surf over toward the enemy. This way they face a stubborn treekin unit with a treeman ancient, and its supported by a stubborn in the woods dryad wall.

The other half of the army would probably be an eternal guard unit 20 strong led by a noble BSB, with the treekin / highborn hammer next to it. Each half of the army probably supported by a 20 man brick of glade guard. I'll have to crunch the numbers but thats the idea. What do you think?

Deployment would look roughly like this:

| EG-GG-HBTreekin-GG-Dryads-TMATreekin |
|---------------------Woods-------------|

Depending on how hard the Treekin already are I may make the Treeman a regular Treeman, and shave out some points for a lvl 4 with lore of Life, probably dropping the dryad hero in the process, I'll post a list when I have crunched the numbers.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 14:27
Nice unit review.

I disagree about EG becoming better though. They got 33,3% more attacks whilst most units got 100% och 50% more attacks.

I disagree about treemen getting huge boosts too. Sure theyre much better in cc now, but we cant hide them. mine died in turn 2 from cannon fire. :(

Im negative about our fast cavalry, however it feels like you should at least have some mobility in your force. I wonder what to take :/

oh and Id rather combine Treekin with lore of life. Healing a wound on them with every spell cast :) but sure the first spell on lore of beasts would make them even more dangerous.

err sorry about that lelandchaska :S

Falkman
07-07-2010, 14:37
I'm considering basing a 2k army around a treeman ancient and a highborn on a stag. Each would lead a unit of 5 treekin. Those 2 units should hit like a bazooka to the face.
Treeman Ancient cannot join units, since he's a monster.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 14:45
also I think the stag highborn wont get look out sir since hes not of the same unit type as treekin.

Falkman
07-07-2010, 14:46
Correct. But he'll kick some major ass and hopefully that will be enough.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 14:48
Unless the highborn is dead before seeing combat :P

Falkman
07-07-2010, 14:49
Only ever gonna be a problem against cannons and stone throwers though, and with a 4+ ward (or 3+ if you feel like gambling) he'll have a decent chance against those too.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 14:58
Maybe you're right :) but cannons and stone throwers are pretty common. Why's he so much better this ed? I dont really get it. last ed the mount was pretty much a 3+ ward against shooting.

lelandchaska
07-07-2010, 15:06
Maybe you're right :) but cannons and stone throwers are pretty common. Why's he so much better this ed? I dont really get it. last ed the mount was pretty much a 3+ ward against shooting.

How sad is it that the Wild Rider Highborne on Stag comes with a 6+ everything ward and a 5+ limited ward, and we still have to pay 45 points to keep him alive with a 4+ everything ward.

Wasn't there something about mounts and riders merging stats in certain situations? Would that mean the stag rider will go from 6 total wounds to 3?

Falkman
07-07-2010, 15:10
Why's he so much better this ed? I dont really get it. last ed the mount was pretty much a 3+ ward against shooting.
Because nowadays you can't shoot or kill the monster separately, and he gets a +1 to his armour save for riding it. And it gets a Stomp attack.
Heck, give it to a Noble and the Noble gets 3 wounds.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 15:16
Which is good in cc but bad against shooting I guess.

oh true, forgot about the stomp :) yeah I guess he's pretty good.

Falkman
07-07-2010, 15:17
I'd say it's good against shooting as well, what's the point of a mount if it's just gonna die and make you walk? :p.
Plus with the new warmachine rules, if the mount was targetable separately it would just be even more bad against cannons/stone throwers, since a template hits both mount and rider now.

Balerion
07-07-2010, 15:33
Everyone is raving about the Lore of Life, but I think it's too risky and random to use as a mainstay tactic. Athel Loren is going to be where it's at. A level 4 wizard can potentially get any spell in the lore off with 1 dice. Using 2 dice is near guarantee and you have a low risk of miscast. Couple that with the amount of natural ability Bound spell spam.
Single-die casting is not a viable tactic, since each roll has a 1/3 chance of ending your magic phase. I wouldn't even want to take the chance with multiple wizards in my army. Not to mention that the spells in our Lore suck... branch.


I'd say it's good against shooting as well, what's the point of a mount if it's just gonna die and make you walk? :p.
Plus with the new warmachine rules, if the mount was targetable separately it would just be even more bad against cannons/stone throwers, since a template hits both mount and rider now.
I don't like it makes the toughness of the mount irrelevant. Doesn't make sense when you have things like a skinny elf riding a hulking stag.

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 15:39
I think I'm gonna go character light :) WE units are usually more useful than their characters. lvl4 and bsb should be enough.


Not to mention that the spells in our Lore suck... branch.


hahahaha! :D

Disturbingly enough, I liked to suck on branches when I was a little girl ... :wtf:

Zaszz
07-07-2010, 15:45
I posted my list thats changed a bit since I posted in this thread. After crunching the numbers I decided on probably not running him on a stag and just a regular wild rider mount instead. He won't be getting the most out of the mount anyway with the M5 on the Treekin so not much point in investing another 50 points when I can't maximise the effect. Instead I would suggest putting him in with 5 Treekin and strong defensive items.

Hopefully with the lore of life mage I put in the list, his unit and him self should be fairly resilient to enemy shooting as they approach. I also put in my list a large ammount of points available for magic items for the Noble BSB and the Mage, which can probably be moved around to make room for 2 eagles to go war machine hunting. Besides the mage helping negate some enemy shooting, I will have a number of targets that my enemy probably wants to target, 2 large scary units, and a monster. Stonethrowers will probably not bother shooting at a unit consisting of T5 models and one T3 model with 3 wounds and ward saves / armor saves, instead they will probably target my juicy GG and EG units. This will need testing but I think the list can fare well.

The core strategy will be the EG unit, 2 GG units, 1 Treekin unit with Highborn, 1 treekin unit next to a regular treeman for combined charges. The list is here:http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265466

Anardakil
07-07-2010, 15:48
But why do you want to make an über-killy and expensive treekin unit more expensive and killy by adding a highborn? seems like there must be a better use of pts.

Zaszz
07-07-2010, 15:54
I think I'm gonna go character light :) WE units are usually more useful than their characters. lvl4 and bsb should be enough.


I will probably be running the same except with a Highborn in some form so my EG can be a core choice. Them with a lvl 4 near by and a BSB in them should do alright, especially when supported by the best archers in the game.

I just feel with all the things other armies can run a stubborn re-rollable brick with good support will form a core to most of my lists.

This should help me keep open my special requirements for the now very strong Warhawks and Treekin (testing pending of course).

lelandchaska
07-07-2010, 15:56
I don't like it makes the toughness of the mount irrelevant. Doesn't make sense when you have things like a skinny elf riding a hulking stag.

That is exactly my rationale behind not liking the fluff of Bloodcrushers. Why can't I just kill the T3 5+ WS Bloodletter off the top? :confused:

Zaszz
07-07-2010, 16:03
Actually managed to create a list at 2250 that runs:

Highborn with around 50 points for gear
Spellweaver with 30 points for gear after going lvl 4 with Ranu's
Noble BSB 45 points for gear

20 Glade Guard with Standard
10 Glade Guard
20 Eternal Guard full command

3 Treekin
6 Treekin
3 Warhawks

1 Treeman

I think gearing the Highborn out for shooting is probably a solid bet here, but going combat in the EG unit would be fine as well. This is similar to my last lists but ties in Warhawks to help handle artillery and all the other things they are good for.

Ender Shadowkin
08-07-2010, 16:14
Oh man, I was reading the new book and noticed a couple more bad things for the WE. The rules for spears while mounted now states that they can only be used in the first round of combat, and the modles use their hand weapon after that. Why does that suck? well we have a couple of magic spears that now only last one turn. I used to like the twighlight spear quite a bit on a WR noble...and the other spear seamed to maybe useful verse the new hordes we are running in to....

The other thing is that Fast Cav units now loose the fast cav rule when joined by non-fast cav Charector. And I don't think that rule has been give to wild rider nobles. So that's bad news unless they faq this...

On the positive side ... they have added some nice cheap common items to supliment all the odd pts valued items in the WE list. It was hard to get good combos before.

To me its going to be hard to justify field nobles of any kind. With the step up, supporting attacks, and horde rules it will be very challenging keeping them allive. We will need a big magic item array to keep our fragile charectors alive. My default charectors are going to be a lvl4 mage, lord and a bsb.

I really like the Glitering armor a lot. I have run a couple games with a good sized EG unit led by a lord with the ryhmers harp and the glittering armor. Most Rank and file need 6's to hit. This has been a significant deterent so that attacks are usually directed away from him. The EG were stuborn on 10 (and I had a bsb in there too).

The fumble winter shard also deserves a look these days. Combined with the Glitterng armor, thats a -2 to hit! Nice defensive combo for a dragon rider, Wardancer,or EG leading high bourne.

Zaszz
08-07-2010, 17:02
Yes I am really excited to try out the magic items in the BRB to make our characters more survivable as well!

As for a few posts up why I was trying to put a lord in a Treekin unit. I was trying to make the unit hit so hard that through 2 rounds of combat remove enough ranks to get a break on a unit. Thus 1 unit dead per turn of combat on basic troops. To do so you need to be REALLY explosive right now. However with the cost of the Lord and the upgrades to do so it ended up being too expensive as you can see in the other list I posted.

I won't lie the idea of the Lord on the Stag model fitting perfectly in with 5 tree kin with him in the front center I think would look absolutely stunning on the table top, it's one of my favorite models.

Nocculum
08-07-2010, 17:05
Ender, the Magic Item rule overrides mundane or special item restrictions.

Effectively, The Dawn Spear & Spear of Twilight are used every round, you simple lose the charging strength bonus (obviously) in subsequent rounds of combat.

VoodooJanus
08-07-2010, 17:22
I found a use for a noble yesterday. It's possibly the most annoying Wood Elf tactic to date, if not a bit flukey. I was playing Vampire Counts, so it worked particularly well.

I gave him a shield, and the briarsheath armor (so he's near impossible to hit while he's in the woods, which is where this sucker is going to hide most of the game.) But the main event here is the horn of the asrai. If you can get your noble into a place where he is seen by much of the enemy army (which should be relatively simple, considering this is the ONE instance TLOS works in our favor.) And then blow that horn like John Coltrane, you're in for a treat. Because everything can* charge at least 15" in the case of dwarves and up to 22" for cavalry, it's very easy to make the entire army confuddle their battleline with even 1-2 failed charges (although for me, the entire army got caught up in terrain that was placed on the mid- right flank.) It's only useful SOMETIMES, but trust me, it's SO worth it to see the look on your opponents face while they try to navigate through the D6+4 pieces of terrain as you force him to charge you at the most inopportune time.

Like I said, flukey, but really, really fun.

Ender Shadowkin
08-07-2010, 17:32
Ender, the Magic Item rule overrides mundane or special item restrictions.

Effectively, The Dawn Spear & Spear of Twilight are used every round, you simple lose the charging strength bonus (obviously) in subsequent rounds of combat.

Well I like that interpretation. But it seams like more of a conflict. In the 7th edition lances and spears "counted" as hand weapons in subsequent rounds of combat. Now it says "must use their" hand weapon.

Similar effects are for magic lances (e.g. HE starlance) while its effect only lasts when you charge, in subsequent turns it previoulsy still counted as a "magic" hand weapon, now it would appear not too. Did they clean up the magic weapons rules in the 8th somewhere to support your interpretation?



I gave him a shield, and the briarsheath armor (so he's near impossible to hit while he's in the woods, which is where this sucker is going to hide most of the game.) But the main event here is the horn of the asrai. .

Thats fun! especially if you can force some dangerous terrain tests as well....The dwarvers can do this as well (and the Siren standard for daemons does it really well).

Nocculum
08-07-2010, 17:57
I will dish out the correct quotes and support for my interpretation sometime later this evening or tomorrow, whenever I overcome the sheer horror of working in a newsagent for the first time today! I keep mumbling lotto numbers...*shudder.*

Balerion
08-07-2010, 18:30
I think I'd agree with Nocculum.


"...if the model also carries a magical close combat weapon of some kind he will always use it in preference to other weapons he carries."
(pg 89)

<snip>

"Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such..."
(pg 501)

<snip>

The magic weapons listed below often have a name that describes them as specifically being a sword or another particular type of weapon. This doesn't mean that the model has to have a sword to use the 'Ogre Blade'. We can simply assume that his axe, hammer, or other suitable hand weapon has the same properties and is, for example, an 'Ogre Axe'.
(pg 501)

<snip>

A character that has a magic close cmombat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons..."
(pg 501)

Nocculum
08-07-2010, 19:25
Alternatively, Balerion could do it for me :D

minionboy
09-07-2010, 06:24
I was just wondering, with the changes to stepping up, what are people using as hammer units, are Treekin the only option? Also, how big is big enough for EG and GG?

Cheers

Balerion
09-07-2010, 09:43
So, as predicted, the FAQ gave us nothing good to speak of. And managed to throw an extra nerf into the mix, downgrading the Amber Pendant to causing ASL. Don't try to use it against High Elves anymore. :(

Oh, and Wardancers got another brutal nerf. In your opponent's turn, he gets to pick at which point you declare your Shadow Dance of choice... ie. after he's already struck first, or after you've lost models without using their ward save. Blindingly stupid ruling.

Poseidal
09-07-2010, 10:54
Has the FAQ been released?

Oh well, looks like I'm not going to be expanding my Wood Elf army any time soon.

At least I have 6 Treekin for the times I do use them, which will probably be in low point (1500) games.

Lord Shadowheart
09-07-2010, 14:58
Oh, and Wardancers got another brutal nerf. In your opponent's turn, he gets to pick at which point you declare your Shadow Dance of choice... ie. after he's already struck first, or after you've lost models without using their ward save. Blindingly stupid ruling.

Wow, that really is ridiculous, shame really, i really like wardancers, some of my favourite models.

I find it amusng that they've backpedalled on a few things too, magic bows actually do magic damage now,a s opposed to before when you needed the magic arrows too. Changed their minds on stone of rebirth too, you can now use it more than once, I suspect I'll be using it instead of stone of the crystal mere on my sniper alter lord along with arcane bodkins and Bow of loren.
2+ ward save when down to you last wound, its a wood elf with the old curse of Aenerion :D

One thing I was pleased about though, is that Treemen ancients only count as a lord choice now, instead of a Lord and a rare, which means I could take a treemen ancient and a regular treeman at 2k if I so wish.

Nocculum
09-07-2010, 15:18
And they errated the Saemrath banner into oblivion too...

On the other hand, non-Wardancer characters in Wardancer units is a plus (unless I'm stupid).

BSB with Magic Banner still gets Spites :D

FigureFour
09-07-2010, 16:06
Oh, and Wardancers got another brutal nerf. In your opponent's turn, he gets to pick at which point you declare your Shadow Dance of choice... ie. after he's already struck first, or after you've lost models without using their ward save. Blindingly stupid ruling.

I'm pretty sure this ruling is being misinterpreted. It's just a logical extension of the existing rules for conflicting timing. It's been poorly worded, for sure, but I think all it's SUPPOSED to mean is that if there's a debate over which ability triggers first, the current player gets to pick, not that the current player can delay choosing a dance until after combat.

Witchblade
09-07-2010, 18:01
I don't have my book at hand, but it seems the stone of rebirth became a must-have. 2+ ward is insanely good, even if it only works on your last wound.

lelandchaska
09-07-2010, 18:37
I don't have my book at hand, but it seems the stone of rebirth became a must-have. 2+ ward is insanely good, even if it only works on your last wound.

I'm going to have to look this up. I thought the Stone of Rebirth specifically said "One use only." If GW wanted to change it to multiple uses, seems odd that they FAQ'ed it rather than errata or amend it.

If it does work that way now, it is insanely good.

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 18:51
I think the one use can be argued to mean the item can only be activated once (ie it can grant teh 2+ ward only if you are reduced to 1 wound). But that begs the question - if you are reduced to 1 wound and then subsequently healed, do you lose the ward save? The FAQs interpretation of Drycha's Fanatical rule would suggest you would lose the ward save - and it being 1 use only you wouldn't get it back if reduced back to 1 wound later.

Other faq rulings of note are the naestra and arahan finally get their spears - 6 S4 attacks on charge makes them as good as most lord level characters in combat now.

Moonstone allows you to escape in opponents turn from combat (and potentially position yourself for a rear charge in turn). Its not like I didn't like this item before, but now its surely a must take.

VoodooJanus
09-07-2010, 19:14
I'm going to have to look this up. I thought the Stone of Rebirth specifically said "One use only." If GW wanted to change it to multiple uses, seems odd that they FAQ'ed it rather than errata or amend it.

If it does work that way now, it is insanely good.

I had the same inclination. But it's not the only thing they did that for. Before, you weren't allowed to take the Eternal Kindred and a magic weapon/armor, but now you can.

Of course, that leads to a bunch of different questions- IE what happens to the inherent 5+ armor save, is it scaly skin-esque, or can you never raise your AS value above that point? Do you get the extra attack from EG fighting style when using a magic weapon?

Looking forward to the games. Not looking forward to the debates.

Nocculum
09-07-2010, 20:19
I have always, always, always used the Stone like that.

The one use only is because it triggers once only - when you go to one wound, it activates.

If you healed to two or more, it'd de-activate, and then not activate again if you dropped back to one wound.

Witchblade
09-07-2010, 20:23
IIRC the previous FAQ specifically said the stone could be used only for one save.

Falkman
09-07-2010, 20:55
IIRC the previous FAQ specifically said the stone could be used only for one save.
Which went against the actual wording of the item, and thus it is nice that they corrected it in the new FAQ.

the gribbly
09-07-2010, 21:45
Greetings from the bottom of the pile. My new 8th edition book still has not arrived, so would someone be kind enough to answer a few tidbits:

-Are all BsBs now able to take full mundane equipment or do the same restrictions still apply for WEs?
-How has waywatcher scout deployment been effected? i.e. can we still deploy within 1" or does TLoS ruin this?
-Can skirmish units reduce the distance between models or must they remain exactly 1/2" apart?
-Are there any common weapons classed as wardancer weapons?
Thanks in advance.

Nocculum
09-07-2010, 21:46
Well, after several games at 1,500 and 2,250, I've finalised my core list (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4805690#post4805690) - the one I will build model wise and finish painting in the style of my plog, and then buy in new units and expand as the mood takes me (although with a Tau project newly started, I'm not sure there will be much room for experimentation, not to mention M11, Scars of Mirrodin and Archenemy decks to build...)

Anyway, here it is, any comments would be welcome - you already know my stance on treekin, treemen and eternal guard - I'll be running the dancers in a 5X2 ranked formation unless templates are present - Lore of Beasts on the Weaver, at least for a few more games.

T4 and 5+ ward vs magic on Wardancers churning out 16 WS6 STR5 attacks is very, very nice, perhaps might run them 7 wide if I know I can flank, although we all know it's risky!

I have a few points to juggle around, considering adding Warbanner or +1 Movement banner to the Wild Riders (the noble obviously goes in with them for a nice and easy 'you're WS1 lol) unit.

Falkman
09-07-2010, 21:50
Greetings from the bottom of the pile. My new 8th edition book still has not arrived, so would someone be kind enough to answer a few tidbits:

-Are all BsBs now able to take full mundane equipment or do the same restrictions still apply for WEs?
No changes, so WE BSBs are still restricted by their book.


-How has waywatcher scout deployment been effected? i.e. can we still deploy within 1" or does TLoS ruin this?
Check the WE FAQ for this.


-Can skirmish units reduce the distance between models or must they remain exactly 1/2" apart?
They need to be "roughly 1/2" apart".


-Are there any common weapons classed as wardancer weapons?
No, but that wasn't really expected seeing as that is an army specific rule.

Kal Taron
10-07-2010, 01:23
On the other hand, non-Wardancer characters in Wardancer units is a plus (unless I'm stupid).
Same as the old FAQ. So not really a plus.


Other faq rulings of note are the naestra and arahan finally get their spears - 6 S4 attacks on charge makes them as good as most lord level characters in combat now.
This is also an old errata.


Moonstone allows you to escape in opponents turn from combat (and potentially position yourself for a rear charge in turn). Its not like I didn't like this item before, but now its surely a must take.
I agree on this one. It's a bit strange that they did change it this way but certainly nice to have.

Elfboy
10-07-2010, 23:30
If I read correctly, Avian stated that fast cavalry now have the hit-and-run rule which could be very useful for glade riders hunting war machines and wizards, and for wild riders too (provided that they stick to charging flanks) allowing them to keep flitting in and out of combat and frequently being able to use their st5 on the charge. This could also make them half decent monster hunters, even if they die in the process it could be worth it.

Also, does anyone know to the extent to which skirmishers have inherited some of the old fast cavalry rules, to be more precise, have they inherited the feigned flight rule?

Falkman
10-07-2010, 23:41
Fast cavalry do not have any kind of hit-and-run rule.
Skirmishers do not have Feigned flight or anything similar.

Elfboy
11-07-2010, 00:26
Having just returned to the FAQ rumour thread I see that your right.

Quote Avian: Well, they got the Fast Cavalry rule, which includes Hit and Run, so they're good.

Avian got my hopes up for a moment there :(

Satan
11-07-2010, 05:30
By Hit and Run he actually means Feigned flight (or whatever it's called) which allows for movement/reform after you've rallied if you used Flee! as your charge response in the previous turn. Utterly useless on ITP Wilriders of course.

bernh
11-07-2010, 10:13
No changes, so WE BSBs are still restricted by their book.

But now you can take any magical armor not only same type as allowed mundane.

Daniel36
11-07-2010, 10:27
Hey guys. I am an absolute noob when it comes to actually playing Warhammer (I am more of a painter), but I still want to give my friend a run for his money.

What's the best set-up for Glade Guards with 8th edition? Right now, I have 10 man strong units including musician, as that seemed to be the best option in 7th edition, but with the new rules, I am sure there's a new "best" set-up.

Thanks.

Nocculum
11-07-2010, 11:00
10 strong with a musician will remain the 'best' set-up, as far as I'm concerned. Some lunatics will tell you that units of 20 will somehow be useful, but MSU for primarily missile units is and always will be the best option. If they were Thunderers, and had access to an insane armour save as well, perhaps, otherwise, 10 strong, musician, Lord's Bowman if you're bored will be the best way I feel.

Two Units of 10 can always move and fire all their shots, gives the same Victory Points but is split into two targets, and gives you more deployment options.

ghostline
11-07-2010, 15:15
Small units of 10 man Glade guard are also good to mitigate damage from war machines.

Chaos Undecided
11-07-2010, 15:24
A largish Guard unit with the Standard of Eternal flame might be quite handy though plus with flaming attacks it'll cause fear in those warbeast and cavalry units sent after it, pity the ArP banner would only apply to melee attacks as far as I can tell from the rules too pricey for a unit standard on the glade guards anyway I believe.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 18:55
Copy and pasted from the WE cry thread from the gen. disc.

One Elf to another, I see the need to help my Woodsland brethren (even you though bastards annexed from the heartland ages ago).

Here's whats good:
-Groups of Glade Guard in 10x. 120 points, MSU, ranks of 2, shoot things.
-TREES. S5/T5, 3 attacks each, 5+ ward, scaly, causes Fear. Stomp attacks, multiple ranks to attack. Use them, don't look back.
-Treeman, same thing. Treekin squads, 2x Treeman, Treeman Ancient, go get some. Stomps and Thundestomps all over the place.
-Eternal Guard, put a Highborn in there that's virtually unhittable and just tarpit all day. The combo I used above also leaves the challenge Sprite free for someone else to tarpit. -You can also get a heavy armor + 4+ ward now too.. common items, look into it.
-Lv.4 Wizard is great, having access to beasts (for your trees), Life is overall really solid, and your Lore now gives you out of phase movement (one of the few that can) that your opponent can't react against. That and your Tree sing on the now terrain heavy maps can offer good damage.
-You guys can still shoot really well, and march and shoot with your Skirmies. Sure, Waywatchers are an expansive gamble, but fluffy players will love these still. 10" march and shoot is 25" of KB threat range.

Here is a list of magic items from your book that you should look into, as they're still really good:
- All the cheap wards you can take, the armor of destiny, glittering scale armor.
- Briarseath got buffed. You take this on a Highborn with Forest Stalkers and they have a -3 to shoot at you with an additional -1 when you're in a forest. -4 to hit is nightmare for anything that's not a cannon ball/treb.
- Bow of Loren + Arcane Bodkins
- Hail of Doom is still great
- Highborn, Rhymer's Harp, big unit of Eternal Guard, Annoyance of Netlings. Challenge all day.
- Wand of Wych Elm on a lv.4 laughs at TK's new magic phase all day, Calaingor's Stave is cheap and is better now because of Tree Singing got improved, Divination Orb is better cause now cheap wizards will throw big dice, Deepwood Sphere, great damage on units that charge into woods (imagine sitting behind the forest and a unit charges a 30x spearmen unit into it).
- Moonstone, Glade Guard, stand and shoot banner. Shoot, get in combat, get out of combat, shoot some more and flank them on the sides with some Trees.

Wood Elves have options, just different options. Sure, March blocking getting nerfed, charging through terrain is a pain and some older combos no longer work, but you guys still have the only ward saves that apply to mounts and the only faction I can see still taking a Dragon lord lol.

Let's see now..
435 points for 30x Eternal Guard with FC and AP Banner.
Deploy wide so you don't get Stone Throwered and then Swift Reform all day until you're in the woods that you deployed at the start of your turn.

Moonstone. Good play and smart traps. Let your imagination go from here. Lv.4 Wizards, entire units worth of models taking S5 hits because they charged into woods, the ability to get out of trouble when you need to..

Everything that makes WE tricky bastards in the first place needs to be re-explored and analyzed.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 19:21
Here's a unit bucket to play with:

Treeman Ancient = 375
Cluster of Radiance
Annoyance of Netlings

Highborn = 236
Spear, Shield
Moonstone
Glittering Scaled Armor
Fimbulwinter Shard
or Armor of Destiny

Noble = 105
Hail of Doom

Lv.4 Spellweaver = 275
Deepwood Sphere

BSB = 140
Glittering Scaled Armor
Fimbulwinter Shard
or Armor of Destiny

Lv.1 - 115
Calaingar's Stave or Scroll

Treeman - 285

6x Treekin = 390

10x Glade Guard = 126
Musician

20x Glade Guard = 289
Full Command, Banner of Springtide

30x Eternal Guard = 435
Full Command, Razor Standard

6x Glade Riders = 153
Musician

Poseidal
11-07-2010, 19:26
Eternal Guard are still bad. Dropping so many points into such an ineffective unit will affect the rest of your list due to the points they use up.

Balerion
11-07-2010, 19:33
And I have no idea why anyone would use Glade Riders. War machine hunting? Whatever, the first shooting attack directed at you will either vaporize them or wreck the unit so bad that the WM crew will fancy their chances against them.

Satan
11-07-2010, 19:40
Eternal Guard are still bad. Dropping so many points into such an ineffective unit will affect the rest of your list due to the points they use up.

True. They're not a viable choice for a "sideline" unit. If you include them the list has to revolve around them somehow.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 19:41
2495

LORDS:
Highborn = 236
Spear, Shield
Moonstone
Glittering Scaled Armor
Fimbulwinter Shard

Lv.4 Spellweaver = 300
Deepwood Sphere
Cluster of Radiance

HEROES:
Noble = 105
Hail of Doom

BSB = 140
Armor of Destiny

CORE:
10x Glade Guard = 126
Musician

10x Glade Guard = 126
Musician

6x Glade Riders = 153
Musician

20x Glade Guard = 289
Full Command, Banner of Springtide

30x Eternal Guard = 435
Full Command, Razor Standard

RARE:
5x Treekin = 325

4x Treekin = 260

Here's a sample list.

Noble goes in the big unit of Glade Guard to shoot, the Highborn can either join them or the Eternal Guard. Reasons are this: Stand and shoot a charging unit, moonstone out, shoot again next turn. Or, take the charge with Eternal Guard, moonstone out, flank and rear or whatever you can get.

Glade Riders are harassment, MSU Glade Guard help shoot things, Treekin flank and kill things because you'll flee with your MSU Glades and your opponent will either be forced in combat with Treekin or get flanked by Treekin (position Treekin close by of course).

You can sub out the BSB if you feel you need more spells.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 19:43
Eternal Guard are still bad. Dropping so many points into such an ineffective unit will affect the rest of your list due to the points they use up.

What do you have that'll hold the line?

Nocculum
11-07-2010, 19:49
And I have no idea why anyone would use Glade Riders. War machine hunting? Whatever, the first shooting attack directed at you will either vaporize them or wreck the unit so bad that the WM crew will fancy their chances against them.

People seem to be forgetting that there is not a predation of 25+ units in every single army ever. Glade Riders, even though not as competant and powerful as neither Marauder Horsemen or Dark Riders, are still a very effective multi-purpose unit.

You need to understand six things at the start of a game when using them:


They WILL die.
They are not for ranked units above 12 models.
They DO offer screening, misdirection, flank threatening and objective grabbing.
You must be prepared to charge them into things you know they won't survive.
Think two turns ahead to allow overruning smalling, weaker units to bring Glade Riders into surprise support positions.
Give them the Beasts Spell and watch your opponent squirm :p


Don't ever expect miracles from them, and they will perform outstandingly every game without fail.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
11-07-2010, 19:50
Copy and pasted from the WE cry thread from the gen. disc.

Part 1
Here's whats good:
-Groups of Glade Guard in 10x. 120 points, MSU, ranks of 2, shoot things.
-TREES. S5/T5, 3 attacks each, 5+ ward, scaly, causes Fear. Stomp attacks, multiple ranks to attack. Use them, don't look back.
-Treeman, same thing. Treekin squads, 2x Treeman, Treeman Ancient, go get some. Stomps and Thundestomps all over the place.

Part 2
-Eternal Guard, put a Highborn in there that's virtually unhittable and just tarpit all day. The combo I used above also leaves the challenge Sprite free for someone else to tarpit. -You can also get a heavy armor + 4+ ward now too.. common items, look into it.
-Lv.4 Wizard is great, having access to beasts (for your trees), Life is overall really solid, and your Lore now gives you out of phase movement (one of the few that can) that your opponent can't react against. That and your Tree sing on the now terrain heavy maps can offer good damage.
-You guys can still shoot really well, and march and shoot with your Skirmies. Sure, Waywatchers are an expansive gamble, but fluffy players will love these still. 10" march and shoot is 25" of KB threat range.

Part 3
Here is a list of magic items from your book that you should look into, as they're still really good:
- All the cheap wards you can take, the armor of destiny, glittering scale armor.
- Briarseath got buffed. You take this on a Highborn with Forest Stalkers and they have a -3 to shoot at you with an additional -1 when you're in a forest. -4 to hit is nightmare for anything that's not a cannon ball/treb.
- Bow of Loren + Arcane Bodkins
- Hail of Doom is still great
- Highborn, Rhymer's Harp, big unit of Eternal Guard, Annoyance of Netlings. Challenge all day.

Part 4
- Wand of Wych Elm on a lv.4 laughs at TK's new magic phase all day, Calaingor's Stave is cheap and is better now because of Tree Singing got improved, Divination Orb is better cause now cheap wizards will throw big dice, Deepwood Sphere, great damage on units that charge into woods (imagine sitting behind the forest and a unit charges a 30x spearmen unit into it).


Part 1

-10 archers in two ranks can shoot stuff...but for the most part they always could. These are, in a word, over-priced is you don't get within short range to take advantage of the strength, but changes to line of sight an terrain means an enemy unit dedicated to getting into combat or shooting them will do so fairly easily.
-anything big is/should be (if your opponent thinks for a minute...unlike me) a magnet to all warmachines, magic, characters with magic weapons, and the new "all my shots are flaming" banner. These were always an issue in 7th, but it was managable by hiding in terrain not given your opponent a target to shoot/charge...this is no longer an option. Basically that one guy you don't want you're Treeman/Treekin to fight is the one flying right at them (assuming a turn 1 cannon ball hasn't already done major damage).

Part 2

-Eternal guard are really over priced spearmen who have the special ability to be stubborn an not be slowed down by woods, without re-rolls to hit like other elven armies. Their other main weakness is being strenght 3 so against T4+ guys you'll need your characters to pick up the slack...but again no re-rolls, no ASF, and S4 only so you are spending a lot of points per character (~50 pt/item) to make sure they can (a) hit and (b) has the saves to not get punked out by basic enemy troops.
-We still need to roll most of the spells we need and they not always pay off e.g. regrowth requires the unit have someone left and moving into combat doesn't help us when in so many situations combat=death for us. There is also the issue of where to put a Lvl 4 to keep him/her safe (trust me this becomes an issue quick).
-waywatchers may be fluffy but they will never make their points back against infantry blocks (nothing new), but it is not difficult to avoid a unit of knights or a spell caster from seeing a high point unit with T3 and no save and making their own points back in one turn.

Part 3

-the armor of destiny and glittering scale armor are useful but cheap wards are not especially when we need every elf we can get and that ~15 points give the same save as a 2 point shield with parry.
-Briarseath did not get buffed. The -1 to hit single characters is gone so now while alone in a forest (assuming said forest does not eat you) you get back to where we were in 7th. Also Waywatcher Kindred cannot wear armour and he would have to be alone anyway to get this benefit.
-"Bow of Loren + Arcane Bodkins and Hail of Doom are great" is not exactly news (usually the first combos any WE trys out)
- A Highborn with Rhymer's Harp, a big unit of Eternal Guard, and Annoyance of Netlings can Challenge all day...but only a desperate man, a fool, or someone equiped with something really nasty would ever do anything but refuse a challenge from a WE character in a unit of Eternal Guard.

Part 4

-I play a TK player often, the wand does do anything close enough to be called "laughing" against their incantations. Deepwood Sphere is better now if your opponent enters a normal forest and forgets the danger.

Overall the only broken item we have is the moonstone (a tricky proposition in itself)

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 20:02
@Gor

I understand that terrain not slowing down your opponents and march blocking being bad are HUGE changes to WE. I'm just saying that doom and gloom should not be the #1 priority of the WE community right now, it should be playing games and experimenting with every trick you guys have to offer.

The treeman argument, yeah Warmachines will give you problems, but Warmachines give everyone problems this Edition. Just Swift Reform as often as you can to minimize damage to Eternal Guard/Glade Guard (since you don't have a penalty when moving and shooting) and pray your opponent isn't Dwarves. Dwarves have magical, flaming cannons so flammable treeman just lol themselves to death.


I play a TK player often, the wand does do anything close enough to be called "laughing" against their incantations.

You dispel every single-die incantation he has with a Lv.4 Wizard on a D6 with a roll of 3+. Re-rolling failed ones means not losing concentration and shutting down incantations, I think that's important. Not great, but with Cluster, hopefully you'll have a better chance than other armies.

(damn you Empire for having so good a dispel)

Poseidal
11-07-2010, 20:02
What do you have that'll hold the line?

Hence you have the problem with the Wood Elf list.

I think it's more cost effective to use a Treeman and spam Treekin, both are very pricy and chances are the Eternal Guard won't have a place with the (now) mandatory L4, and fitting the shooting units in.

Falkman
11-07-2010, 20:21
Not great, but with Cluster
You need a Branchwraith or Treeman Ancient to take a Cluster of Radiants.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 20:24
You need a Branchwraith or Treeman Ancient to take Cluster of Radiants.

Thanks for the correction.

So... Glade Guards to shoot, Trees to hold the line + kill things, Eternal Guard (if its a point sink) can still hold and play tricks with Moonstone.

Are those the only options?

Balerion
11-07-2010, 20:49
They are not for ranked units above 12 models.
Or heavy cavalry. Or combat skirmishers. Or solo characters. Or monsters. On top of those asterisks, your original claim is problematic. The only time people field ranked units of <12 is for elite infantry, who would chew up GR.


They DO offer screening, misdirection, flank threatening and objective grabbing.
No one will be misdirected by GR, because they are not a priority to deal with. They will be allowed to run around and pop off their useless bows until they stray into the range of something that can shoot/charge them and grab the easy VPs.

Same thing for flank threatening. Your WE inexperience may be showing a little bit here, since even throughout 7th edition most opponents immediately recognized that GR are not credible flankers and ignored them. The reason for this is that there are so extremely fragile that any flank attack with them effectively translates into easy bonus CR for the enemy. GR are generally the last unit you would ever want to hit an engaged enemy on the flank.

Objective grabbers need to be able to survive the game, and your first point about GR was that they will never survive the game...


Think two turns ahead to allow overruning smalling, weaker units to bring Glade Riders into surprise support positions.
Please give some examples of units that are smaller and weaker than Glade Riders.

Poseidal
11-07-2010, 21:15
Thanks for the correction.

So... Glade Guards to shoot, Trees to hold the line + kill things, Eternal Guard (if its a point sink) can still hold and play tricks with Moonstone.

Are those the only options?

Eagles, though they got less effective due to weakening of March Block and the way redirects work.

Apart from them and Characters, I can't really think of anything else.

Witchblade
11-07-2010, 22:07
Glade riders can still march up in front of units and flee the charge, slowing down the enemy. As a bonus, nearby enemies may fail their ld check to march.

Suicide them into an enemy unit with I < 3 and a fragile mage.

Kill a (weak) war machine.

That's basically it though. I can't imagine wanting to screen anything with them really. They're fragile and relatively expensive.

neXus6
11-07-2010, 22:40
As many treemen and as much lore of life as possible seems to be the basic starting point.

Eternal Guard are pretty expensive...I'd rather take nearly 2 units of 20 Glade Guard instead(maybe make 2 units of 30 in the army posted above?).

BSB is a must with all the stubborn.

Unit or two of glade riders as harassment, which will be helpful sometimes, and they add some more shooting in.

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 00:21
BSB is a must with all the stubborn.
GG are only stubborn in large formation, which isn't very good.
EG suck.
Treekin have 1 rank maximum in practice.
Treemen are stubborn, yes.
Skirmishers in woods are too, but wardancers suck. Dryads will benefit significantly.

I wouldn't call it a 'must', considering Nobles are pretty useless and fragile all in all. Plus, where are you going to place the BSB?

Balerion
12-07-2010, 01:07
@Gor

I understand that terrain not slowing down your opponents and march blocking being bad are HUGE changes to WE. I'm just saying that doom and gloom should not be the #1 priority of the WE community right now, it should be playing games and experimenting with every trick you guys have to offer.


The priority should be truthfully assessing our units so that we can get the most out of the remaining lifespan of the book as well as hopefully indicating to GW what needs to be modified to make the next version successful, fluffy, and fun.

Now, throwing out words like "unplayable" and "worthless" is certainly untruthful and exaggerated. But that's no more untruthful than stubbornly defending every last unit in the army, and projecting an all-is-well image. The doomsayers come off as hyper loudmouths, and the optimistic apologists come off as people who have chosen to bury their heads in the sand.

Don't really know where I'm going with this, other than to say that it's extremely annoying to be lumped into a category with the doom and gloom crowd, when really most people are quite intelligent and fair with their criticisms of the WE army, even if they ultimately take a negative position towards it.

minionboy
12-07-2010, 01:16
I'm going to play around with abusing forest strider by sending warhawks through woods. Now that they get a stomp, 3 warhawks will do their 6 attacks then 3 stomps, could be interesting against smaller units, skirmishers and warmachines.


Don't really know where I'm going with this, other than to say that it's extremely annoying to be lumped into a category with the doom and gloom crowd, when really most people are quite intelligent and fair with their criticisms of the WE army, even if they ultimately take a negative position towards it.

The reason is because 99.999% of the doom-and-gloom people spend no time at all figuring out what new possibilities arise and tend to spend all their time lamenting about stuff that ultimately doesn't matter anymore. No matter how much complaining one does, it doesn't change how the army needs to be played now, and it is much more productive spending time figuring out new tactics and strategies, rather than just throwing your hands up and shelving the army.

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 01:24
The priority should be truthfully assessing our units so that we can get the most out of the remaining lifespan of the book as well as hopefully indicating to GW what needs to be modified to make the next version successful, fluffy, and fun.

Now, throwing out words like "unplayable" and "worthless" is certainly untruthful and exaggerated. But that's no more untruthful than stubbornly defending every last unit in the army, and projecting an all-is-well image. The doomsayers come off as hyper loudmouths, and the optimistic apologists come off as people who have chosen to bury their heads in the sand.

Don't really know where I'm going with this, other than to say that it's extremely annoying to be lumped into a category with the doom and gloom crowd, when really most people are quite intelligent and fair with their criticisms of the WE army, even if they ultimately take a negative position towards it.
I agree 130%, as I stated in the 'the sky is falling!' thread in General Discussion. There's a distinct difference between criticism and pessimism.

Wrenia
12-07-2010, 01:34
Now that they get a stomp, 3 warhawks will do their 6 attacks then 3 stomps, could be interesting against smaller units, skirmishers and warmachines.

Note that stomp (and thunderstomp) only work against infantry, Swarms and Warbeast. They do not work against the WM crew since in the nuti summary they share the Warmacines troop type. :P

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
12-07-2010, 02:44
The treeman argument, yeah Warmachines will give you problems, but Warmachines give everyone problems this Edition.

You dispel every single-die incantation he has with a Lv.4 Wizard on a D6 with a roll of 3+. Re-rolling failed ones means not losing concentration and shutting down incantations, I think that's important. Not great, but with Cluster, hopefully you'll have a better chance than other armies.

(damn you Empire for having so good a dispel)

Damn Empire indeed,

The line of sight thing is not unique to treeman and treekin (stegadons, warshrines, giants, etc all suffer), but to use lizardmen as an example they have a slann, and tough ranked troops, and poisoned attacks. What I mean is other armies have options for taking down monsters, really hard hitting units, or for just tanking damage. Wood elves really only have a Treeman and if that gets punked out turn one not only is it a lot of victory points given up we lose what is or only reliable counter to a lot of problems that nothing else can handle. Plus new spells from lore of fire and metal make all of the targeted units attacks magical so put that on a warmachine and your instantly a dwarf.:cries:

With TK, yeah I field a wizard with the wand of wych elm and a branchwraith with the cluster of radiants...but he fields a king, two priests, a high priest and the casket. It adds up to 2 on 1D6, 3 on 2D6, and 2 on 3D6 (and doesn't count actual boundspells or the jar of +1 incantations); adding up to 7 total and not all of them can be one diced (and that's assuming he doesn't roll low). Even if I let the king's go all he does is smite the SSC (flaming magical attacks) so I really have to try to stop all of them, and there is a 1 in 9 chance of failing even with the re-roll and we've been playing it that the rolls are given only the wizard with the staff so if it does fail, thats it (possibly not the way it's suppose to play but still). The wand does help against most armies, but it really only hepls to stop those one or two spells we know we have to dispel...and incantations are pretty freaknig broken right now.

minionboy
12-07-2010, 04:20
Note that stomp (and thunderstomp) only work against infantry, Swarms and Warbeast. They do not work against the WM crew since in the nuti summary they share the Warmacines troop type. :P

Bah! Good catch...

Daniel36
12-07-2010, 06:33
Thanks everyone, for enlightening me.

Kal Taron
12-07-2010, 07:19
How much use is Forest Strider for Warhawks anyway? They still can't use in "on the fly".

minionboy
12-07-2010, 07:34
How much use is Forest Strider for Warhawks anyway? They still can't use in "on the fly".

For some reason I was under the impression that if you began/ended your move in woods, you would take a dangerous terrain check.

willowdark
12-07-2010, 18:00
I'm looking at roughly...

2 x 12 Dryads
3 x 10 Glade Guard w/ muso

6 Tkin
3 x 5 Wardancers

Tman
10 Waywatchers.

That's just under 1800 pts.

I think I can get an Alter noble with 2 hand weapons, the HoDA and the Briarsheath, and a Lvl4 LoLife spellweaver in just under 2250.

1) Does the army look effective? If not, what would you change?

2) Will one caster be enough or should I drop the alter for a singer?

Nocculum
12-07-2010, 18:09
Huntsmen/Archers
Detachments smaller than 10 models
Chariots (Maybe Not Chaos ones)
Thunders (in the flank of)
Glade Guard (Easy one ;))
Ellyrian Reavers
Glade Riders
Dark Riders
Pistoliers
Outriders
Flank of most non-rare slot knights, with even average luck
Harpies
Beastment Harpies
Eagles
Warhawk Riders
Any form of warmachine[/i].
Ungors
Chaos Warhounds
Dire Wolves
Ungor Chariots
I'd Wager a unit of 5 Empire Knights would be a good target flank or when charged too, depending on warbanner or Inner Circle or not.
Waywatchers
Gnoblar Trappers :p
Arrer Boyz
Crossbowmen
Duellists
Marauder Horsemen

:shifty:

willowdark
12-07-2010, 18:11
What??????

Potential targets for both HoDA and the dual handweapon I9 charge?