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T10
23-02-2006, 09:50
A 20 strong beast herd charges a units that decides to flee. The beast herd can reach the unit with one model, obviously less than 25% of the beast herd.

Is this sufficient to catch and destroy the fleeing unit or does the charge fail?

-T10

Atrahasis
23-02-2006, 10:49
The charge fails. 25% in range is necessary for the charge move, and not merely the declaration.

PelsBoble
23-02-2006, 12:35
Hehe, yep i would agree with atrahasis :)

(even tho this happend in a game with me vs T10 where i begged that i would be able to kill them, because his dwarfs totally screwed me)

Festus
23-02-2006, 15:46
Hi

I disagree.

If the charge was legal in the first place (able to reach the enemy with 25% of its number) and would've succeeded, then only contact is necessary to eliminate a fleeing unit.

Greetings
Festus

PelsBoble
23-02-2006, 15:56
Well 25 % wasnt inside range. But the dwarfs rolled very low on the fleeing. So the beastmen with 10 charge range would run them down. But as 25 % of the beast herd wasnt in charge range it was illegal i would think.

Atrahasis
23-02-2006, 15:56
Hi

I disagree.

If the charge was legal in the first place (able to reach the enemy with 25% of its number) and would've succeeded, then only contact is necessary to eliminate a fleeing unit.

Greetings
Festus

The rules for beast herds specifically state that 25% of models must be in range of the target to make a charge move.

If 25% of the models are not in range, no charge move can take place and so no contact is possible.

T10
23-02-2006, 16:35
Ok, that seems reasonable.

-T10

Festus
23-02-2006, 17:06
Hi

The rules for beast herds specifically state that 25% of models must be in range of the target to make a charge move.
Yes, that was what I referred to as the charge being legal.

If the defender chooses to flee (or maybe is forced to), any contact -by as little as one Beastman- will wipe out the fleeing unit, though. As per the normal rules.

Maybe you want to enlighten me with the English version of this rule, though...

Greetings
Festus

MarcoPollo
23-02-2006, 17:28
I would agree with Festus. As long as you can legaly get the charge off, then you can catch and kill them with one model.

I know that one model seems rediculus but I have seen one model catch otherthings in that situation and destroy the unit.

Crazy Harborc
23-02-2006, 20:19
Unless there is a special rule for the Beasties saying they must catch a fleeing unit with 25%..then IMHO, it should only take ONE minies to catch that fleeing unit. When there is no special rule i do believe the regular rules apply.

T10
23-02-2006, 21:41
I believe Atrahasis has pointed to the relevant issue - the restrictions on the charge-move.

Under normal circumstances the charging unit's still needs to reach the target unit *after* it has made it's flee move or it will suffer a failed charge.

I believe the following is appropriate:

1) Beast herd declares charge.
2) Target unit flees.
3) Beast herd measures range to target unit.

I cannot see that there are any grounds for working out the charge differently just because they are attempting to reach a fleeing unit. It is still a charge move, not a normal move.

-T10

Major Defense
23-02-2006, 22:06
I believe Atrahasis has pointed to the relevant issue - the restrictions on the charge-move.

Under normal circumstances the charging unit's still needs to reach the target unit *after* it has made it's flee move or it will suffer a failed charge.

I believe the following is appropriate:

1) Beast herd declares charge.
2) Target unit flees.
3) Beast herd measures range to target unit.

I cannot see that there are any grounds for working out the charge differently just because they are attempting to reach a fleeing unit. It is still a charge move, not a normal move.

-T10


That is exactly as crystal clear as I saw it from the start of this thread. Beasts charge with 25% or more of the unit. Charging a fleeing unit is still a charge.

Drake Dun
24-02-2006, 01:33
Someone needs to post the rule word for word. If it says "In order to declare a charge..." for example, then clearly the dwarves are wiped out. OTOH if it says "In order to make a charge..." then it seems equally obvious that the dwarves are safe.

Drake

mageith
24-02-2006, 05:52
Raiders: "They may only make a charge move if at least one quarter of the models in in the unit are with charge range of the enemy unit." (18)

The Raiders can declare a charge if it's close, but the actual move will not be a charge unless 25% are in range. If the actual move is not a charge move, the Raiders cannot destroy the fleeing unit.

"If enemy troops successfully charge a unit that is already fleeing then the unit automatically flees from the charge." (75)

Ith

Drake Dun
24-02-2006, 07:06
Well, in that case it seems fairly clear to me that the dwarves would be safe. Speaking only in terms of literal interpretation, of course.

Drake

mageith
24-02-2006, 13:58
Well, in that case it seems fairly clear to me that the dwarves would be safe. Speaking only in terms of literal interpretation, of course.

Drake
What other kind of interpretatin would you want? I'll give it a go. :)

Ganymede
24-02-2006, 15:37
"If enemy troops successfully charge a unit that is already fleeing then the unit automatically flees from the charge."

ok... so you can reach the unit initially, with 25%, and are able to sucessfully charge it, thereby forcing it to automatically flee. Now, the fleeing unit is out of reach.

But, how do you sucessfully charge a unit that is already fleeing if you will be disallowed a charge move because that unit will move out of range of 25% of your models?

Major Defense
24-02-2006, 16:24
But, how do you sucessfully charge a unit that is already fleeing if you will be disallowed a charge move because that unit will move out of range of 25% of your models?The answer is that fleeing units move 2D6 or 3D6 inches. A low roll will leave them well in reach of 25% of the herd.

Ganymede
24-02-2006, 17:27
You didn't answer my question. Please pay very close attention to the last thirteen words in my question.

Drake Dun
25-02-2006, 01:40
"If enemy troops successfully charge a unit that is already fleeing then the unit automatically flees from the charge."

ok... so you can reach the unit initially, with 25%, and are able to sucessfully charge it, thereby forcing it to automatically flee. Now, the fleeing unit is out of reach.

But, how do you sucessfully charge a unit that is already fleeing if you will be disallowed a charge move because that unit will move out of range of 25% of your models?

Good question. I would say the difference hangs on the word "move". The beasts must have 25% within range to "make a charge move". So their "charge" is successful, but they do not make a "charge move". The result is a "failed charge", which is still a type of charge, just one that failed. Note that "successfully make a charge" must mean that they successfully declare and initiate a charge, not that they reach the opponent - or the rule you quoted would be meaningless!

Drake

Ganymede
25-02-2006, 04:32
But even a failed charge move would surely be a kind of charge move, a kind of move that the beasts would be disallowed to undertake retroactively as the enemy unit flees away.

TAU AIR CASTE
25-02-2006, 11:48
Yeah have to say I agree too that one model from a unit that could originally charge would be enough to run down the fleeing unit.

ZomboCom
25-02-2006, 13:21
If 25% couldn't catch in the first place, then it's a failed charge, so will not run them down, even if one could catch.

Ganymede
25-02-2006, 17:24
Yeah I also agree. If the beast herd could initially reach with 25%, it could run down the same unit that subsequently fled with just a single model.

Drake Dun
26-02-2006, 07:29
But even a failed charge move would surely be a kind of charge move...

That is a reasonable reading, too. I think this one has no clear answer.

Drake

HeraldoftheGods
26-02-2006, 10:23
Well, the moevement section does explain failed charges, and as I see it the bit saying "If the enemy has fled ... your troops might not be able to move far enough to reach the intended target." describes this situation.

For all intents and purposes, even though the enemy has fled, you are still attempting to perform a charge, with all the usual restrictions - including raiders. It's just that now you are charging a fleeing unit. So to make that charge you need 25% to be in range, otherwise it counts as a failed charge.

<edit>

If the charge was legal in the first place (able to reach the enemy with 25% of its number) and would've succeeded, then only contact is necessary to eliminate a fleeing unit.
Festus
The rules for charge response state you declare your charges, then your opponent carries out his charge responses (in this case flee), and it is only once that has been done that you can measure the distance. You have no way of knowing whether the charge was legal prior to the charge response as the enemy have moved and you didn't measure before hand.

The only time you measure for the charge is after the enemy has moved, and it is from here that you apply the raiders rule.

mageith
26-02-2006, 15:29
But even a failed charge move would surely be a kind of charge move, a kind of move that the beasts would be disallowed to undertake retroactively as the enemy unit flees away.

I'm not so sure. Raiders "may only make a charge move if at least one quarter of the models are within normal charage of the enemy units." In other words, a charge out of range is not merely a failed charge but not a charge at all, that is, not a CHARGE MOVE at all.

Wouldn't the opposite be that if one quarter of the models are not in normal charge range then the move is not a charge move of any kind? In other words, even if they are moved during the Move Chargers phase, since 25% were not in range AT THE TIME OF THE MOVE, it's still not a Charge Move? If it's not a charge move, then there can be no engagement and no run down.

To clarify:
Case 1: I declare a legal Raider Charge, but my opponent flees beyond my unit's 25% range, but still one model can catch it if it moves it's full 10 inches. Is the unit destroyed? If the Raiders move but five inches, no model can catch it. But can the unit move its full ten inches if its a failed charge?

Case 2: I declare a legal Raider Charge, but my opponent flees a very short distance, but still beyond my 25% range, but still one model can catch it if it moves it's failed charge range of 5 inches. Is the unit destroyed? Can a unit that is not making a charge move destroy a fleeing unit it touches?

Mage Ith

BTW, there's another can of worms up there. Can you find it?

Festus
26-02-2006, 15:46
Hi

BTW, there's another can of worms up there. Can you find it?

Easy: Raiders seem to be able to declare a charge without actually making a charge move afterwards.
Will they be able to move normally, will they be able to maneouvre more than just one wheel? Will they be able to use missile weapons (not that they have access to them, just ad usum delphini)? Will they...?

Greetings
Festus

mageith
26-02-2006, 20:48
Easy: Raiders seem to be able to declare a charge without actually making a charge move afterwards.

You're so smart!

AFAIK, we only have a few kinds of moves: Charge Moves, Normal Moves (which include all on page 49 and 50) and Compulsory Moves. (44) (Possibly there is a Rally Move too, since it's not exactly like a reform).

In addition, the nature of a Failed Charge Move has never been perfectly clear. Is it a Charge Move of some kind or more like a compulsory move or a unique move that acts like a compulsory move but despite its name can't engage enemies like nearly all other compulsory moves except fleeing.

They way it is used in the Raider rule seems to create a new kind of move or clarifies that it always has been an unique kind of move.

We now know that the out of range Declared charge is not a Charge Move. Then what is it? I'd have to say its a Compulsory move performed in the Move Chargers phase. Compulsory moves do NOT allow units to engage other units (45) unless noted. Almost all have such a note except fleeing. (BTW, most Compulsory Moves are NOT performed in the compulsory move phase.)



Will they be able to move normally, will they be able to maneouvre more than just one wheel? Will they be able to use missile weapons (not that they have access to them, just ad usum delphini)? Will they...?

No, No, No would be my answers.

Mage Ith

Ganymede
26-02-2006, 21:14
By showing that a failed charge is still a kind of charge move, I was trying to demonstrate that it would be unreasonable to interpret the rules to mean that a herd initinally with 25% contact can not run downa fleeing unit if it moves outside of 25% contact, but still within the charge range ofa single model.

Interpreting the rules in such a way leaves so many questions about whether or not a failed charge move is still a kind of charge move, and what happens when a beast unit which is initially allowed a legal and sucessful charge declaration is retroactively denied the right to make any charge move at all when the fleeing unit moves away.

Since you can't have a sucessful charge that is simultaneously an illegal charge, I think it would be unwise to interpret the rules in such a way.

mageith
26-02-2006, 21:59
By showing that a failed charge is still a kind of charge move, I was trying to demonstrate that it would be unreasonable to interpret the rules to mean that a herd initinally with 25% contact can not run downa fleeing unit if it moves outside of 25% contact, but still within the charge range ofa single model.

A failed charge is Not any kind of Charge Move. Even though that it has the word charge in it and is done in the Move Chargers phase. It's never ever treated as any kind of Charge Move is it?

I declare a charge and my target flees. I redirect, but then I accidentally run into my original target. What happens? The charge isn't a charge anymore and I must stop. A Failed Charge is not a Charge Move here.

Or I declare a charge and my target flees. I run into him and run him down, but then I want to continue through him and hit another unit. I cannot. I must stop. A Failed Charge is not a Charge Move here.

I declare a charge and my target holds. But along the way I run into a unit that is in the way, either because it fled in front of my or I miscalculated my charge rout. I cannot touch that unit. I must stop. A Failed Charge is not a Charge Move here.

I declare a charge and my target flees. I redirect and that target flees out of range also but reveals a new target, easily in range. However, I am limited to two charge declarations and even if I could have reached him with a failed charge I cannot. I must stop short. A Failed Charge is not a Charge Move here.

We have lots of anomalies in charging.

Is there anytime a Failed Charge Move is considered a Charge Move and results in a Successful charge?



Interpreting the rules in such a way leaves so many questions about whether or not a failed charge move is still a kind of charge move,

Unfortunately there is no interpretation here. A beastman charge beyond the 25% range is NOT a charge move the rules are quite clear. What isn't clear is just exactly what it is. Most of the contributers to this thread assumed it was a failed charge. I now agree that it is. Some of the contributers then assumed a failed charge is still a charge move, but it isn't. At least its never treated as such in this edition as far as I can tell.



and what happens when a beast unit which is initially allowed a legal and sucessful charge declaration

A legal and successful charge declaration does not make chargers out of unit? A charge declaration is simply a reasonable estimate. A successful charge declaration has nothing to do with a successful charge or a Charge Move, does it? Does a charge declaration make the declaring unit a charger? No it doesn't. What makes a declarer a charger is a legal charge, that is, one in range. Range is simply calulated differently with Raiders. With a ranked unit, only one model needs to reach to make the charge successful, but with Raiders 25% need to be able to reach.



is retroactively denied the right to make any charge move at all when the fleeing unit moves away.

All underestimated charge declarations are retroactively denied the charging ability as I pointed out above in my several examples. In other words, a failed charge is not a charge nor is it a Charge Move, despite the fact it is done in the Move Chargers phase. Unless a charge is successfully completed against its declared target, the charge is failed. If a charger first or simultaneously reaches it's declared target it might bring in other units too.

The biggest example of this is two targets equidistant away. The wide charger can declarea charge either unit and will unavoidably bring in the second unit. But no matter which unit the charger declares against, if it flees the other unit which was once unavoidably charged not is disallowed as a target. Anyway that's how I've always seen it played. My wide Ogres run into this one all the time. I hate it.



Since you can't have a sucessful charge that is simultaneously an illegal charge, I think it would be unwise to interpret the rules in such a way.
What is a successful charge? It is one that is declared against a target and one that the unit reaches based on the unit's own rules. For normal skirmishers and ranked up units and essentially every unit in the game except Raiders, its merely one model reaching. For Raiders its 25% of its models reaching. It's not a successful charge for raiders if 24% of the models reach. It's not even a "Charge Move".

In this case the rules are quite clear IMO, they just aren't intuitive and are different and unique, but in this case I think GW thought about the consequences and wrote the rule clearly.

Mage Ith
In case anyone noticed, my views on Failed Charges has slightly changed based on this discussion. I too used to think a Failed Charge was a kind of Charge Move as did Ganymede. I no longer do.

Festus
27-02-2006, 09:00
Hi

A failed charge is Not any kind of Charge Move. ...

Or I declare a charge and my target flees. I run into him and run him down, but then I want to continue through him and hit another unit. I cannot. I must stop. A Failed Charge is not a Charge Move here.
You are wrong, because here we have a successful charge - even making contact - and not a failed charge. By everyones interpretation, including yours, this must be a charge move. Otherwise, the fleeing unit could not have been contacted and caught.


Is there anytime a Failed Charge Move is considered a Charge Move and results in a Successful charge?
There at least is the other way round: In the example above, a unit making a (successful) charge move is not allowed to contact an enemy unit.


A legal and successful charge declaration does not make chargers out of unit? A charge declaration is simply a reasonable estimate. A successful charge declaration has nothing to do with a successful charge or a Charge Move, does it? Does a charge declaration make the declaring unit a charger? No it doesn't. What makes a declarer a charger is a legal charge, that is, one in range. Range is simply calulated differently with Raiders. With a ranked unit, only one model needs to reach to make the charge successful, but with Raiders 25% need to be able to reach.
A charge declaration makes a unit a charger. Always.
There may be other ways to make a unit a charger, most often by compulsory movement. This charge may fail, but the unit is still a charger in my book.
It gains all the benefits of charging, although it doesn't manage to use them (much like a unit which stood still in the Movementphase may actually shoot with X-bows - too bad if they don't have them...;) ), and it gains all the disadvantages (just one wheel, no shooting, etc.). Most importantly, it has to move in the direction of its intended target, whether it makes contact or not!
You cannot simpl start to move the other way if you see that you cannot reach your target and fail the charge.

In the case of a failed charge, it is just punished for misguessing or -calculating as well, as the unit will not double the range of the move.

So in conclusion: A failed charge is still a charge move for all intents and purposes.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
27-02-2006, 14:30
A charge declaration makes a unit a charger. Always.
There may be other ways to make a unit a charger, most often by compulsory movement. This charge may fail, but the unit is still a charger in my book.

The book I'm interested in is the BRB. Show me there.



It gains all the benefits of charging, although it doesn't manage to use them (much like a unit which stood still in the Movementphase may actually shoot with X-bows - too bad if they don't have them...;) ),

:) gains ALL advantages but doesn't manage of use them? This is too silly to respond to. It's LOST all the advantages of the charge, or at least the advantage the charge is designed to take advantage of and that's contacting the enemy for the purpose of battle.




and it gains all the disadvantages (just one wheel, no shooting, etc.). Most importantly, it has to move in the direction of its intended target, whether it makes contact or not!

...gains disadvantages? gains...? disadvantages...? Interesting word juxtaposition.

Because the rules for a Failed Charge, which are listed separately in a small section on page 52 are similar or the same as a charge doesn't make it a charge. It makes it a Failed Charge--a different thing altogether. Its all we need to know about a Failed charge. It does move "as if it were charging" (52) which is to say it is NOT charging.



You cannot simpl start to move the other way if you see that you cannot reach your target and fail the charge.

In the case of a failed charge, it is just punished for misguessing or -calculating as well, as the unit will not double the range of the move.

So in conclusion: A failed charge is still a charge move for all intents and purposes.

A list of similarities doesn't prove this at all. You know that! And there's really only one important thing about a charge and that's whether one can contact his opponent. (44) On a charge, one can and on a Failed Charge one cannot. The purpose of a charge is to make contact, is it not?

Besides it's right there in the name. I think the term "Failed" says it all. The rules and results in the BRB back this up splendidly. So I ask the question again, is there any time a Failed Charge is allowed to make contact? I know of none. GW has been very consistent in this as far as I can tell. Note that a Redirected Charge doesn't count. One redirects a Fleeing Charge, not a Failed Charge.

So, in relation to question at hand, a Beast Herd move that is not a Charge Move as the Beast Herd rule reads cannot make contact with a unit fleeing in front of it. It Fails the 25% requirement necessary to make it a charge. I'd say it is a Failed Charge and not a Charge at all.

Mage Ith

Festus
27-02-2006, 16:42
Hi

So I ask the question again, is there any time a Failed Charge is allowed to make contact? I know of none.
But then the reverse cannot also be true. You conveniently chose to ignore your own example.

If what you say is true, how can then a successful charge not be allowed to make contact?

The charge and run over of a fleeing unit (made contact) and then stopping in front of another enemy?

How does this work then. Surely the unit must still be making a charge move and thus be allowed to contact, or isn't it?

Festus

mageith
27-02-2006, 18:52
But then the reverse cannot also be true. You conveniently chose to ignore your own example.

This comment is uncalled for. My only goal is to derive the truth. Either a Failed Charge is some kind of Charge Move or it is not. Are there any examples of a Failed Charge being allowed to make contact?

The Fact that a Successful Charge isn't allowed to continue on to another unit is irrelevant. My example was not one of a Failed Charge and so I apologize.



If what you say is true, how can then a successful charge not be allowed to make contact?

??? By definition a successful charge makes contact.



The charge and run over of a fleeing unit (made contact) and then stopping in front of another enemy?

It's not a successful charge because it was never declared so it never met the first criteria of a charge--to be declared.



How does this work then. Surely the unit must still be making a charge move and thus be allowed to contact, or isn't it?

A Charge Move has two components: 1) Declare against a specific unit and 2) Reach that specific unit. If 2) is not completed, it is no longer a Charge Move.

The Raiders can declare against any reasonable unit, but that doesn't make them a charger or, more importantly, what they do in the Move Chargers phase, a Charge Move. Only if they can reach their target legally (with 25% of their unit in the case of Raiders) can they be successfully charging. In all other cases, its a failed charge or not a Charge Move. If it's not a Charge Move they cannot approach within one inch and therefore cannot contact the enemy.

BTW, I don't necessarily think this the way things should be. If I had my druthers, I'd get rid of the Failed Charge rule altogether. A unit would simply declare it's charge and move toward its target. Anything it contacted along the way would be charged (Like Pursuit into Fresh Enemy). But that's not the way it is and GW has been very consistent on this.

Mage Ith

Festus
27-02-2006, 19:02
Hi

My only goal is to derive the truth.

Then let's see how we can arrive at that...



It's not a successful charge because it was never declared so it never met the first criteria of a charge--to be declared.

A Charge Move has two components: 1) Declare against a specific unit and 2) Reach that specific unit. If 2) is not completed, it is no longer a Charge Move.

I am inpressed. According to the latest news, a charge move has to have a declaration preceeding it, otherwise it i none and there can be no contact made?

This might be true for your run-of-the-mill charge move, but certainly it is not true for *all* charge moves.

How about *compulsory* charges? How about frenzied charges (which are not declared either)?
You could of course say: "But this has to do with special rules!", and you were right, but we are talking special rules here: We are talking Beastie Raiders and their possibilities.

A Charge Move does certainly *not* need a declaration to be a charge move.

And I still stand by the notion that a failed charge move is still a charge move, even if it did not make contact.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
27-02-2006, 22:25
And I still stand by the notion that a failed charge move is still a charge move, even if it did not make contact.


:) Isn't making contact the whole question of this thread?

Mage Ith

HeraldoftheGods
27-02-2006, 23:33
I can't see the problem. It clearly says "If this is the case the charge has failed." You are no longer charging. Even if one model could contact the enemy by only moving it's normal move distance, it is prevented from doing this by the 1" rule, as it isn't charging. The charge has failed.

In this case you'd have to try and squeeze some sense out of the rules. You are forced to move towards the intended target, as if charging, however you would have to stop within 1" of the target as your charge has failed and you are no longer charging it.


And can we stop with the "it was a legal charge before they fled". You don't measure the charge distance until after the enemy has fled, therefor it's impossible for the charge to be legal before hand. It can only be legal afterwards.